Graeme

I'm guessing that that's supposed to be "Neuromancer" - a SciFi classic. by William Gibson.

Wow! A beautifully written story, full of emotion and one to generate emotions in the reader. You should be proud of this story.

Love online: 100,000 Grindr users exposed in hack attack Not something I know much about, but apparently it's a popular smartphone app in the gay community here in Australia. If you use it (or the straight equivalent, Blendr) I would suggest looking into this.

Putting the word out for gay writers I remember Hares & Hyenas from when they were in South Yarra - a short walk from where I work. I've even bought a couple of books from there (books dealing with married gay men - they were when my wife and I were struggling with the issues when I came out to her). I haven't been to their new store, though - Fitzroy is a little bit out of my way. Any Melbourne-based writers or prospective writers may want to check out what they're running during the MidSumma festival - it just might help you get something published!

Interesting question I noticed that most people looked at the issue of coming out (yes or no), but my reading of the question is whether it is moral for Billy to accept the money to go to college when he believes that his parents will disown him and not give him that money if he tells them he's gay. Firstly, it's a belief that his parents will disown him. He believes it - but it doesn't become reality until he comes out and finds out if his belief is correct. Until that point in time, the parents are willing to pay for college. Secondly, I'm going to make the assumption that his parents have never told him that they would disown him and not pay for college if he's gay. Morally, if they've told him that and he still accepts the money after that point by staying in the closet, he's being deceitful and morally wrong (though, in my opinion, it's still being smart and he should stay in the closet until he finishes his education). On that basis, his parents are freely, of their own will, paying for his education. The money is not being embezzled - it's being used for the purpose that his parents intend (Billy's education). Therefore, it is not morally wrong for Billy to accept that money. That's my view I also disagree with those above who say that we need to look at the parents morals as part of the question. In my opinion, someone else behaving immorally does not change the morality of an act. It can have an influence on the degree of immorality, but an act is immoral irrespective of other people's actions because morality is a personal thing. Yes, I agree that Billy's parents would be acting immorally to abdicate their responsibilities if Billy tells them he's gay, but that wasn't the question It's whether Billy is being immoral by taking the money without giving his parents details of his sex life (and, somehow, I doubt his parents wanted details of his sex life as a condition on their paying for his college education )

Bill's given some good advice for reviewers. I accept that it can be hard at times to work out what to say and how to say it, but an old rule for managers is to praise in public and criticise in private. It works in the workplace and it works here, too

My two cents worth (and that Australian dollar has improved in value over the last year, so it's worth more than it used to be ) We're talking about a number of different things here, so it's not surprising that we not getting a meeting of minds. All of these things have been mentioned at various times in the discussion above, but maybe it'll help if they're collated. 1. This is a site for amateur writers. Many of the writers here are writing and posting publicly for the first time. It therefore shouldn't be a surprise that they're not stretching the boundaries of what's possible. When you're starting out, it's often easiest to stick to a 'tried-and-trusted' path... which is often cliche-laden. 2. Cliches stories can be popular. There's one genre in general fiction (romance) where there are publishers who ONLY publish formulaic stories. The readers want them that way, so the authors and publishers produce them for those readers. With some publishers you can predict the general path of the stories before you even start - it's just detail that's different between each story. But in these cases it's the journey that the reader is going along for, not a surprise twist or ending. If they don't get the ending the expect, they'll be disappointed. 3. Writing stories that don't have cliched components is almost impossible. What's more achieveable are stories where cliches are twisted to become something new. Blowing my own horn for a moment, I've done that in two of my novels. The first was a straight forward high school coming out story... told from the point of view of a homophobic straight guy. The other is the straight guy who's gay for just one guy... again told from the point of view of the straight guy who feels trapped by his situation. Another achievable option are stories where cliches are minor parts of the story. dkstories's stories have been mentioned, and they're a great example of this. The characters are gay, but the story is not about them being gay - the story is always about something else. 4. Writing non-cliched stories generally requires experience. Not necessarily writing experience (though that helps); it could be reading experience or world experience. In effect, it's finding something to write about that's 'new'. That is NOT easy. Out of my four novels, two are fairly standard 'cliched' stories. In one I've tried to present the story in a different way (using embedded links), but ultimately it's a cliche-ridden romance... and it's popular. This gets back to what was said earlier - a well written story can be enjoyable even if it's cliched. A non-cliched story that's not well written is not going to be well read. A non-cliched story that's well written really stands out from the crowd... because they're so rare. That's not just true here, but across the entire literary world. 5. We've had the discussion in the past in various threads, but, to put it simply, the most popular genre here and at many other sites is romance. Romance stories tend to be cliched. It doesn't matter if they're gay or straight romance stories, thought the cliches tend to be different between the two. Most authors are writing for what is the largest audience - the romance lovers. That is to be expected and shouldn't surprise anyone. Dom Luka is acknowledged as a brilliant writer by many people, but since he write romance, yes, there's a lot of cliches in his stories. That doesn't stop the stories from being extremely popular because the writing is so good. 6. We do have other genres here, but you need to look for them. When you do, you start to find the stories that are different. A comment was made about how many stories feel the same. Well, duh, that's what the romance genre is all about. Move out of that genre and the stories no longer feel the same. dkstories does SF and Fantasy very well. Lugh writes great fantasy. Vance has horror stories. Myr has SF and Fantasy as well. Nephylim's another non-romance author to have a look at. In summary, cliched stories have their place. Non-cliched stories are great when you can find them, but they're not easy to write, especially for beginning authors, and it's just a case of appreciating them when you do find one that you like.

I didn't hear an accent I initially read the article and then saw the video. I personally think the article is the more uplifting and hopeful of the two

I like the idea... but I noticed that almost all the sports listed in the original post were from North America So how about a few posts from the Commonwealth and European members on the subject? What about football (AFL, Union or League for the Australian/NZ crowd, Soccer for the European and South American crowd, or some silly sport involving lots of armor plating for the American crowd ) or cricket (for the cricketing nations). The World Cup has just finished (congratulations to the Kiwis, commiserations to the French), the League and AFL have just had their grand finals (congratulations to Manly and GO CATS!!!!!) so it's too late to talk about them, but there's always some sort of sporting event going on....

In today's newspaper is an article by one of the first people to see that video. I thought it should be shared Pots, parmas and coming out: a lesson in understanding

As Nephylim said, there are a lot of American phrases that are acceptable in Australia, so from a writing perspective it makes it easier to use those, rather than the more colloquial alternative. There are exceptions to that, though. When I was writing, I had the advantage of using an American editor, so between us we could pick up on the Australian phrasing that would cause an American difficulty. Most of the time, the American version was acceptable usage in Australia and so I'd go with that one, but not always. As the original post said, sometimes the difference is too big and it makes it clear that the author doesn't know what they're talking about. I can almost always spot an American author who is writing a story in Australia, or with Australian characters, because it just doesn't come over as natural to me. It's almost always a stereotyped Australia or Australian character, and not realistic. My favourite real-life example is someone I met many years ago. He was your stereotypical Australian beer drinking surfer - blond hair, lazy smile, charm oozing out of every pore.... and with an intense interest in Salvador Dali art. When he visited a new city, one of his 'must do' activities was to visit the local art museum. An author creating an Australian character would get the stereotyped stuff fine... but wouldn't round it off with the individualistic parts (like an interesting in Salvador Dali art), or would go too far with the stereotyping. Similarly, an author setting a story in Australia (or any other country for that matter) tends to expect that the way things are done in their country is the way things are done in other countries... and that's not true. After living in the UK for 12 months, I'm happy to say that both Australia and the UK have a pub culture... but it's very different in the two countries. As an outsider, my perspective was the UK pub was an extension of a person's home - it was their living room where they did a lot of social activities with their friends. In Australia, however, we tend to have larger houses, so there is more socialising at home, rather than at the pub. Another big cultural difference I noticed when I was in the UK was in the area of sports. Australia has a strong sporting culture with lots of local sporting competitions. I went to the UK expecting to find a basketball team I could join in for fun, but not only did I have trouble finding a team, I had trouble finding a competition! When I did find one, it was at a completely different standard to what I was capable of playing.... When I was writing my New Brother novel, there's one chapter where there was a fight at a basketball game. My American editor asked why it didn't make the newspapers. Their expectations of who would be attending a basketball game between high school aged students was very different to what I've experienced here in Australia. That's why there's a reference in that chapter to the fact that the only spectators were friends and family - a local basketball game is a very low-key event from a news-worthy point of view. So I agree with option in the original post. If you're going to set a story in another country, make sure you do your research. Better still, get someone from that country to read it before it gets posted to pick up on all these things! That's what I've done in every one of my short stories that's set in the USA (I've got a handful) and in every single case I had to make changes because those American readers told me I had things wrong. All subtle things (some were as simple as names of characters/towns - they said the ones I used just didn't feel right), but they all add up to give an impression of realism... or destroy that impression as happened in the short part quoted in the original post.

Fun... though we've had similar (and better) things here in Australia for a long time. Just squeeze as shown - the packet automatically opens and the sauce comes out exactly where you want it to.

When you make good points, it's hard to ignore you And you made (and continue to make) good points. However, a lot of this is subjective, not objective, so naturally there will be different interpretations. A valid interpretation, but not necessarily the only one. My personal view is that it's going through a transition period... and doing it earlier than many other parts of society. Consider business and sports - the number of out male homosexuals in those fields at the top are even less than in entertainment. Marketing is, by its very nature, conservative, because the idea is to sell... and change is really, really hard to sell. "More of the same" is much easier. But the first steps have been taken - there are now gay characters appearing in mainstream shows, something that just wasn't happening 30 years ago. Yes, the next step is to A-list gay actors... but that's going to take time. We're making progress, even if it's not as fast as you'd like. Just my opinion, of course. I don't live in Hollywood (or, indeed, the USA) I agree with you on this for the reasons I mentioned above - marketting is generally conservative in nature. Making movies is a business and the perception is that they'll make more money with white male straight actors than anything else. That perception is changing and has been changing over the last few decades. Look at how many more non-white actors there are, some making it to the A-list. It's only a matter of time before the same happens for a gay actor. We already have A-list gay celebrities in the music industry - the movie/TV industry will follow sooner or later. Just to repeat, you've made good points and I don't see anything wrong in what you've said. I have a different interpretation/perspective on some of the points, but I'm not disagreeing with your points

A fair comment. Equally, of course, people can be accused of being gay and no matter what level of denial is presented, there are those who won't believe those statements. An Australian example is our former Olympic champion, Ian Thorpe. There are those that believe he's gay, despite constant denials. He's gay friendly, has some effeminate characteristics, and that appears enough for some people to believe he's gay. He says he's not and I'm happy to take him at his word unless I hear evidence (not innuendo) otherwise. I was the one who gave that example, so I thought I should respond. What we're talking about is believability. Because there's no visible sign of being gay, anyone should be able to act as a gay character. That's not true for skin colour, and that's why I deliberately didn't use that as an example. However, English vs American vs German vs French vs Russian is another story - they're all Caucasian and a good Caucasian actor should be able to play any of those nationalities. Your last point is valid, but that's been mentioned before - and I don't see that who plays the character has a large impact on the image that the character presents. A character who is loveable is loveable for who they are, not for who plays them. A character who is hated is hated for who they are, not who plays them. I can accept that. Life isn't fair and we don't have equality in our societies. We're getting there and by having gay characters appear in mainstream TV shows and movies, that's helping progress society towards equality. Who plays those characters isn't as important as what the characters are in the first place. For a long time they've been almost entirely stereotypical effeminate gay men... but there have been enough examples where that's not true over recent times that I think attitudes are changing in that respect. There's an earlier thread on the subject of LGBT community in the Media, which talked about how most gay characters were flamboyant white middle class/upper class males, in which I made a post that gave several counter examples. It's easy to remember the flamboyant white male characters because, I concede, there are a significant number of them, but please don't forget that that's not all there are. If the others tend to blend into the background, I suspect that's because they're not remarkable - they're normal and that's why they don't stand out.

I tend to prefer to work with a scale. I'd say you're 80% attracted to males and 20% attracted to females, based on what you've said. Mainly males, but there is some attraction to females, too. That's how I described myself to my wife, and she took some comfort in that. It wasn't perfect, but it seemed to help her accept why I had gotten married in the first place. Based on your last post, what I'd suggest is one step at a time. For now, separate but still have an involvement with your child. That's the time to start working out how you'll manage things as separated parents. After that's getting sorted out THEN start looking out for someone to start a relationship with. That way you have your priorities right - child first, yourself and your wife second. Only a suggestion

All an actor/actress needs to play a role is the ability to play it convincingly. We don't insist that a character who is Italian be played by someone who is Italian. We don't insist that a character who is Roman Catholic is played by someone who is Roman Catholic. We don't insist that a character who has a particular illness is played by someone who has that illness. Why should we insist that a character who is gay/lesbian be played by someone who is gay/lesbian? Just my two cents worth I so agree with the above posters, though, that simply having big name actors/actresses playing gay characters in a positive way gives a positive message. EDIT TO ADD: We've had a discussion on this a long time ago, and I remember Jamessavik wanting to give a "Most Convincing Straight Actor Playing a Gay Character" award to Gale Harold for his role as Brian Kinney in the American version of Queer as Folk. I just thought I'd mention that this has been going on for a long time.

Polling closes sometime today. Don't wait until the last minute to put in your vote for what the anthology themes will be for next year! Graeme GA Anthology Coordinator

You've got a lot of parallels to my situation, though you've done it a lot earlier than I did Any time you want a chat, please feel free to email or PM me.

It sounds like you're on the right track What I mean by that is that it's likely from what you've said that your wife and you will find the best answers to the issues facing you. I can't say if that means separating or staying together, but as far as I can tell you're doing the right things to find the 'right' answers. You're also thinking of more than just yourselves, which I think is excellent. Well done and good luck to all of you.

A warning - one of the married gay men who helped me when I came out had been to counselling, but it was the wrong type of counselling. The counsellor my wife saw mentioned one of her clients had also previously had counselling, but it wasn't effective because they never asked a simple question - what was the gender of the person the husband had had an affair with. The wife couldn't say it was another man, and the counsellor had just assumed that the husband had had an affair with another woman. That resulted in a lot of wasted time and effort. This is very much a specialist area. Most marriage counsellors wouldn't know how to deal with a situation where one of members of a marriage has an attraction to the same sex. If at all possible, find a counsellor who specialises in this area - it made a huge difference to us. My wife rang the local gay/lesbian hotline, looking for help. They put her onto the Bi-Victoria website and from there we got the recommendation as to which counsellor to use. Try the same thing in your area. I know there are counsellors who specialise in this area in other countries because I remember seeing a media report of one such counsellor in the USA They're not easy to find, but they'll be able to help deal with precisely the right issues.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. All of those issue stem from the same cause. I know -- been there. I was lucky when I came out to my wife that I had two other married gay men to go to for support. Both are now divorced - one very acrimoniously. I'm still married, but I'm very much the exception to the rule in this situation. Reading between the lines, I can see what's happening. As I see it, you need answers to the following questions: 1. Do you want to stay with your wife? Your posts above indicate you still don't know the answer to that one. That's one of two big questions that will determine what happens next. 2. What are you prepared to give up to stay with your wife? That's the other big question. Life and relationships mean compromise. In a mixed-orientation marriage, there's a lot more compromise than in most relationships. In my case, my wife allows me to have a 'gay life', but it's strictly platonic. The Internet is my 'gay release' and I can assure you, we all need one. My wife finds that to be a safe release for her and that's her compromise - accepting that I'm gay and that means I can't deny that part of me. My compromise is to be true to my marriage vows. Okay, that doesn't sound like much of a compromise on my side, but I assure you it is. I want a boyfriend; someone to hold and to love. I can't have one. My love for my wife is not primarily sexual - I would never want to hurt her again (not like I hurt her when I came out) and I do love her deeply, but it's not a sexual love. My wife doesn't understand me, but she accepts me and loves me. That's enough for me, but it's not necessarily enough for you. 3. Does your wife want to stay with you? You've indicate stress in your relationship (I had enough in mine when I came out) but do you know if she knows the answer to that question? The fact that you're talking means she'd like to, but she's probably unsure - just as unsure as you are. It takes two to have a relationship, so the answers to question 1 and 3 have to be both "Yes" is your marriage is to have any chance to survive. 4. What is she prepared to give up to stay with you? In many ways this is even more important than the questions above. The counsellor who helped my wife warned her that some wives compromise themselves out of existence to keep their husbands. That's unhealthy. Other wives are not able to compromise enough to give the husband breathing space. I will emphasise what I said above, if you're attracted to men, you will need some sort of release to allow you up cope! That release does not have to mean infidelity. It could be porn. It could be an online community (though that has its own challenges - PM me if you want some details). If you and she can not find a mutually acceptable compromise, your relationship won't survive. 5. How much does she understand? The counsellor who worked with my wife was brutally honest - and she needed to be. Deceptions, even to try to spare the other person, will only hurt more in the long term. The counsellor told my wife of some of the women she had dealt with (she was a counsellor who specialised in helping women who had found out that their husbands were gay). She mentioned the husbands with the boyfriend on the side. She mentioned married men visiting places for anonymous sex (certain parks, toilet blocks, gay sex-on-premise establishments). She told my wife about how strong the urge for gay sex can be to a married gay man (based on real people she'd counselled). As an aside, she got into that business via counselling AIDS victims. When she found out that a number of them were married, she asked who was counselling the wives? On a very personal note, honesty is critical in this situation, but honesty taken too far is cruelty. One of the books the counsellor recommended for my wife to read had the story of the husband who confessed to all his gay affairs on his death bed. He was relieved and relaxed when he died - leaving behind a devastated wife and family. In my case, my wife has told me that she does not want to know what goes through my mind when we have sex. It's a balancing act - you must be prepared to answer questions honestly without going too far, too fast. Good luck and best wishes.

Hi, I really need to do a detailed post on this because... I'm married, gay, with kids But I'm rushed at the moment so I'm going to direct you to an essay I wrote on this subject after I came out to my wife: Being married and gay The situation is not identical to yours because you've said you're already working with your wife. Please feel free to email or PM me if you want any details - this is one subject where being open and honest is necessary, even when it comes to private details. The only thing I won't tell you is identifying information. :hugs: I know what you're going through. It took me until I was almost forty one before I accepted myself so you're twenty years ahead of me

To some extent, what we're talking about is style. Some authors are concise. Some authors are verbose. A good example of the latter is Stephen Donaldson and his Thomas Covenant series. It's not a style I usually read (I tend to go for the authors whose style is in the middle) but it's just the way the story is written. A fair comment, but again what that means is that the author has to build up suspense again. Can he do that? Probably... and that's his job. There is nothing wrong with having multiple suspense/climax events in a story. Just because there's a lull before the next sequence doesn't mean something is wrong. I've been finding the interactions interesting... especially as we know that there are things still to go. Of course, the story also needs to progress, and there's a legitimate point of view that the story is not progressing... but equally readers could consider the situation in Australia is developing and that's progress. Now, if you really want an example of how a story can extend without progress, try Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I stopped reading after book 10 when there had been practically no story progress for two entire novels... CJ's a long way from making the story that dragged out. And given the huge number of Wheel of Time fans there are, people still buy the new books because they're still interested, even if the story wasn't progressing particularly fast. This is a comparable situation, in my opinion. We're all hooked on the story and the fact that story progress isn't fast at the moment isn't stopping us from reading Just my views

Two weeks to go in the voting Thanks to all the members who have voted so far, but if you haven't voted yet, please have a look at the five polls (four for the quarterly anthologies and one for the poetry anthology) and help us choose the themes for next year!

The polls to pick the 2012 anthology themes, including the poetry anthology theme, are now available in the Anthology Forum. Please vote for your favourite themes The poll closes on 14th September, USA Time, so please don't wait until the last minute to vote!