BigBen

I suppose. But the purpose of the weekend was for Hank and Kevin to talk about where they "go from here." It's more likely that Hank is upset that Kevin refused to give him a "frequent flyer" discount. . . . 😃

Oh, come on, Gary! It's obvious that Chase is whom Dawson really wants. It's not Dawson's fault that, unlike Kevin, he is a man of principles and honor--sorry, this is set in Toronto, isn't it?--I mean honour.

Come on, chaps and chapesses, we need to get back to lambasting Cave-in and Hanky, while scheming to find ways to get Chaste and Awesome together. We're only at 90 posts; we need at least another 150!

I'm glad for that, because Hank needs someone to be concerned and try to get through to him. Good point about Chase's giving up; I was focusing more on his efforts to get through to Hank, not his fear that the efforts are futile. Since Chase can no longer reach Hank, let's hope Charles can. Perhaps Hank will open up to Charles, even though he no longer can to Chase.

Since we're quoting the Scottish play, MacBeth's poignant words in the last act are apt here, in principle, at least: "Will all great Neptune’s ocean wash this blood Clean from my hand? No, this my hand will rather The multitudinous seas incarnadine, . . . " In other words, past behavior has had irretrievable consequences. I'd love to spare Hank such severe regrets, but at the moment it would appear he's killed off his relationship with Chase. It's time for Hank to fight for what he needs: Lay on, Hank, and curs't be he who first cries "Enough!"

Well, an interesting chapter, for sure. The timing is the big issue, here. Chase obviously recognizes that there is a strong possibility of Dawson's being "the one," if only Chase were over Hank, which he is not. Yet he also recognizes that given Dawson's bad experience of not speaking up to Brent soon enough, he can't stand in the way, if Dawson can find happiness with their co-worker Carter. It is natural for Chase to fear that his friendship with Dawson might be jeopardized if Dawson falls for Carter, but the way Dawson lights up at the opportunity to meet Charles says to me that Dawson still wishes Chase were a possibility, and that if the timing were better . . . . At least Dawson and Chase are honorable men and won't intentionally jerk each other around. It would be unfair for Chase to ask Dawson to wait to see what the outcome with Hank is first, and Dawson quite understandably feels the need to move on from Brent and to explore any possibility that presents itself. And no matter how much Chase might like to be a possibility for Dawson, he's not ready yet to move on from Hank, so . . . . I'm not sure what Charles is trying to say by reminding Chase that Hank had been there for him. Chase is well aware of that and has demonstrated that he would be there equally for Hank, if only Hank were to let him be. We've already seen Chase's desire to be friends with Hank, at the very least; it is Hank who has acted to prevent that, despite his initial promise. I'm not sure what to make of Hank's downcast mien and his new willingness to relinquish control of Rex; it's not clear whether that signals any hope of a reconciliation with Chase or not. He still holds all the cards in the relationship, in the sense that unless he opens up to Chase—and that right soon—there won't be any relationship anymore. I'm wondering if Charles will try to reach out to Hank, or if he will consider it better not to try and meddle. It might be better for him to wait to see if Hank will get in touch with him. And even if Hank doesn't want to talk to Charles, he still has all the other people in his and Chase's set on his side and could talk to any one of them (except Kevin, of course!) if he wanted to. I'd like to believe that Hank's current unhappiness means that the weekend away with Kevin was a failure, because Hank was still pining for Chase, but if that were the case, he really needs to say that to Chase. I imagine he has Chase and Dawson already married in his head, however, which would prevent him from even trying. Again, it comes down to timing. If he keeps rebuffing Chase for too long, there will come a point past which the relationship will be irretrievable, even if Chase still would like one. It is possible to still care but at the same time not be able to be in that relationship any longer, as I know to my cost. Timing is all. Le Coeur a ses raisons, que la Raison ne connait point.

Oh, goodness gracious, no! I wasn't criticising you at all. My reaction was to the idea that Natalie was treating Troy the way she would treat one of her girlfriends, which is a perfectly proper way to write one of your characters. You can't be held responsible for your characters' failings! There'd be no story, otherwise. It's just that I have encountered this expectation in real life, both as overt prejudice, and also from some women I've met, who seemed to want me to be another of their girlfriends. I also see it as a common trope in the treatment of gay people in films and on TV. I may be oversensitive on the subject, but please bear in mind that I am considerably older than you, and things have changed quite a bit since my time (though not enough in some ways, alas!) Block me if you wish; just be aware that, like Georgette, I'm not being offensive on purpose . . . ☹️

The problem is not that Grant has the journal, the problem is that he started reading it. If he hadn't read the bloody thing, he could quite easily say, "Here. I found this in the fireplace when I moved in. I haven't read it," and all would be well. The real situation, however, is that he has invaded Troy's privacy and needs to confess that, or their relationship won't be worth spit. So he can't destroy the journal, and he can't give it to Troy and say he hadn't read any of it. He needs to be honest and accept the consequences. It does appear that Troy cares enough at this point to be able to forgive Grant, but that's not a foregone conclusion. And that's just the way it is. But Grant won't know, until he comes clean. @Wayne Gray I hope you understand that my bitching about the characters is not a reflection on your writing; if anything, it means you've really hooked me. And this despite the fact that I read the first edition a few times already! I like how you have Troy stand up to the other three in this chapter. His metaphor about coming out of the closet is a good one, and I like that his friends finally begin to understand what they've been doing to Grant, and therefore to Troy. Although when Georgette says for them to kiss, I'd have refused on general principles. (But then I'm an ornery old man and not a susceptible twenty-something, lol!) But in all, I like this chapter because it marks the start of Troy's friends' seeing Grant as a real person and part of their group, instead of as a plaything they can manipulate for Troy's benefit. (Yes, my nickname is Bitch; how did you know? 😁)

And the problem is that they don't understand that they don't understand. So it's on us to try to educate them. A lot of this stuff can be overcome, if we can manage not to get defensive and to talk things out. ETA I saw a comment that Grant feels guilty about falling in love with Troy, but I don't see it that way. His reaction to Georgette is not guilt, rather it is a need for privacy while he sorts out his new self-understanding and figures out how he feels about Troy and what he wants from a relationship with him. That Troy's friends seem incapable of granting that privacy is disturbing. They seem to be fundamentally decent people, however, and they will no doubt learn better, especially if Grant can find a big enough clue stick. I'm sure they can eventually learn the difference between pressure and encouragement.

And here I thought the bigoted idea that gay men were women in men's bodies had been done away with. (sigh) It doesn't feel any less intrusive to know that Natalie would be just as eager to pry into a straight woman's sex life as into Troy's. But at least a woman friend would have had years of experience in fending off the prying. I guess I've been really fortunate in that the women with whom I've had close relationships have all been a lot more respectful of our boundaries.

The business of the journal is serious, but it's entirely Troy's and Grant's business. It was one thing when there was never a chance that Grant would meet the people in the journal, it's now quite a different matter, now that Grant has connected with "T". But while Grant needs to be honest with Troy, if they are ever to have any hope of a long-term relationship, Troy is still fragile enough that Grant needs to be careful how he reveals his knowledge of Troy's secrets. But Grant is a decent man and will do the right thing. His love for Troy will see to that. The meddlesome friends are a different matter. I wouldn't call them a more serious issue than the journal; rather I'd say they are an equally serious problem. And the problem is that they are so focused on their own need to meddle that they have lost sight of the fact that truly loving behavior in this situation is to give Troy and Grant the space they need. The don't see that any interference on their part could seriously damage Troy, whom they claim to love. If they put too much pressure on Grant, he is likely to react badly, thus ruining Troy's chances of happiness with him. And too much pressure on Troy could destroy him, since he is still recovering from the events of the past year and is still emotionally fragile as a result. If they continue to act as though they own Troy, the results will not be good.

How come Natalie feels entitled to know the details of Troy's sexual encounters with Grant, but she never shares the details of her sexual encounters with Brian? I really dislike the prurient interest so many heterosexuals seem to have in gay sex, particularly when they appear to feel entitled to know the details of my sex life.

Having an orgasm with someone else is sex. I never believed that line about a blow job's not really being sex, even if you can successfully use it to avoid being impeached (or more accurately, to avoid being convicted when impeached). The idea that only anal sex counts as real sex (in the case of a gay male couple, at least) is hilarious, as I'm sure our gay sisters would be happy to point out. 😄

I read about "coming out to oneself" always with great interest. To me, the notion of hiding in the closet implies awareness of the secret being hidden, so the notion of knowingly keeping a secret from oneself is somewhat bizarre. However, I met a fellow once who had been raised in such a sheltered way that he was completely oblivious of being gay until he found himself in his mid-twenties, married, with a couple of kids, and suicidal. It was only with the help of a superb therapist that he had been able to come to terms with the feelings he hadn't known he had. Most of the gay men I know--and the gay women, too, for that matter--were aware of their attraction to people of the same sex at a fairly early age. For me, the feelings were undeniable, so they certainly weren't a secret from me; it was the implications of those feelings about which I was in denial. So for me it was more a process of self-acceptance, than one of self-revelation. Fortunately, things have changed enough since my childhood that self-acceptance seems to come a lot easier for most people these days. I remember that I freaked out so badly after my first sexual experience with a man that the poor fellow said he would never again sleep with a virgin! It was a wonderful experience, and I had known I would enjoy it, but it was those damned implications that messed with me afterwards. And unfortunately, that poor guy, who did such a great job of initiating me, had to bear the brunt. I'm so sorry I put him through that. At least the social pressure has improved these days to the point that Grant is taking this discovery about himself relatively well. I wonder if he's on the straight-to-bi part of the Kinsey spectrum, or on the bi-to-gay part. Given his success at convincing himself of his heterosexuality up till now, I suspect that it must be the former.

The technical challenge in a story like this is to make the "conversion" or awakening or whatever you want to call it believable. The Kinsey scale notwithstanding, most people in my acquaintance have been pretty certain about their sexual orientation from an early age. I myself recognized my sexual attraction to men around age four. So coming up with a believably confused or oblivious character is tricky. Fortunately, in terms of a story such as this, sexual orientation does lie on a continuum, and very few people are exclusively attracted to one sex and not at all to the other. Since I'm one of those rare people at the exclusively gay end of the spectrum, I am always sceptical about conversion stories, much as I'd sometimes like it to happen in real life (sigh). I do have to say, however, that Grant's progress in this story is believably slow. If somebody has enough attraction to women to have been able to sell himself on the notion that he's heterosexual, awakening to homosexual feelings is going to be a drawn-out process. What I particularly like in this story is how it's Grant's liking for Troy that comes first, not the sexual attraction. I find it more believable that someone could discover unaccustomed sexual feelings developing for a dear friend, than that a previously unknown type of sexual attraction would arise suddenly out of the blue.

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."—Herm Albright

So, are we commenting now just to drive up the comment count? 'Cause if we are, I can do that, you know!

Yeah, right. Like Gary's gonna listen to you on that . . .

"You wouldn't talk to me like that if I weren't in this wheelchair." "But you are, Blanche, you are!" 😊

How's this? Kevin is such a slut . . . . . . that his bed is equipped with a credit card swiper. . . . that he writes his own phone number on toilet walls. . . . that his bedroom has a revolving door.

It's pretty good actually. I like! 👍🏼 The more the merrier, buddy! 😊

It's all Kevin-bashing. You might be better off not knowing, actually . . . 😄

Kevin also rescues lost puppies and feeds starving kittens . . . 😁

We probably can't absolve Chase entirely. He might still have reacted badly. It's on him, after all, that he didn't think a bit before reacting to the proposal. I've spent the past thirty years trying to learn to put an instant of thought between a stimulus and my response. It's not all that easy, alas. I'm beginning to think the best way to look at this is just to consider how sad the whole mess is and to hope that the guys can find happiness regardless. And of course to learn what we can from the whole sorry deal.

No, we often don't ask for what we get, but we're not always healthy enough to choose differently. I don't mean to disparage Hank by writing this, but it is possible that the timing of his proposal, which started the whole series of events in motion, could well have been a subconscious form of self-sabotage. I don't want to be committed to this remark, just to put it out as a sad possibility. Just as you see yourself in Hank's unwillingness to try to call Chase, I can see myself in the timing of the proposal. Making exactly the wrong move at exactly the wrong time is sort of my superpower.