BigBen

So you say . . . and your point is? 🤣

They do both seem prone to going off half-cocked, don't they? Is it possible Chase is giving Hank a taste of his own medicine, or is that too devious for Chase as we know him? (I'm trying to come up with a Cave-in joke to fit the situation, but nothing's coming to mind, alas!)

Interesting developments. I'm going to have to reread a few times before commenting, I think. Glad Hank has a therapist, though. That's good news.

Greetings to all. I hope everyone is staying safe. My sister, whose field is public health, is very encouraged by how the restrictions really seem to have helped in the U.S. Even some of our more rabid right-wing-conspiracy-theorist relatives are coming around on the topic of the virus. I doubt restrictions will be lifted any time soon, but at least the situation is looking a bit more hopeful. My church has gone to virtual services, so I am busy getting the organ music recorded for each Sunday. The restrictions have certainly proved a challenge to the choir.

I can see how these things are true for Hank, but my goodness, if only he'd been able to say something along the lines of, "I'm sorry, Chase, but I'm too raw to deal with this right now," instead of what he did say. Such a shame! (I don't regret Chase's reaction to the marriage proposal, however. If he'd acted sensibly at the time, this whole story could never have been written, and we'd have missed out on so many really excellent Cave-in jokes!)

I share some of your feelings in this regard. What I am focusing on, however, is that it would be nice to have seen Chase reaching out to this group and insisting on respect from them, just as he has been doing with Hank whenever they've encountered each other. It bothers me that Hank still had to intervene to make it happen. I don't care about Hank's motives, or why the friends weren't there for Chase as well as Hank; I just want Chase to be strong enough to take matters into his own hands and be strong. He's obviously capable of that now; as the comments about his having grown from a boy into a man indicate. It would be great to see him taking more of the initiative now. ETA: I realize that this may seem inconsistent with my earlier posts in this chapter, but this is my current take, after a third reading of the chapter, and after going through all the comments again. Who knows what I'll be thinking tomorrow, lol!

This! 100%! More, even.

That's what they all say! 🤣

That's as may be, but I know I'm not nearly well-endowed enough to give that gaping maw any pleasure!

Oh, now there's a point! Never mind, then; I'm not going to give him the pleasure! 🤣

Awwww! (blush)

Well, I'm certainly with you on these points. Carlos's remark about seeing a man, now, and Trey's remark about how the heart wants what it wants are important signs of support, and I don't want to diminish them. There's just been too much else on my mind (such as it is, lol) to talk about first. Stay safe and healthy, buddy!

Point, but I feel this way primarily because (a) he wasn't transparent about the whole thing, except for rubbing Chase's nose in their weekend away (when he didn't have to say a word), and (b) the massive jealousy over Dawson, and (c) he went along with everyone else when they just assumed (and we know what happens when we ass u me, . . .) they knew what was going on. You are absolutely right that Hank is not obliged to acknowledge the mistake with Him Who Shall not Be Named, but I see this not so much as punishment, but rather as a way for him to get over it. Talking about our secrets usually robs them of their power. But I'm willing to concede that you may be right that it would derail Hank's progress. We know that Chase will forgive him all his dickish behavior, but part of the process of gaining forgiveness is, by definition, the acknowledgement that there is something to forgive. I can't wait to see how Gary will manage to tie all this up (and I'm not talking about You Know Who, either, lol)! 😀

I'm learning that my understanding of a passage often depends on my mood at the time, and I may well see things your way the next time around. Besides, the value of this forum and the slow unfolding of a text—at least for me—is that I get to try out different interpretations and see how they fit with other people's thinking. And you know, don't you, that when I disagree with you it's because I care, not because I don't love you, right? Of course you do. Silly me! ❤️

I disagree a little bit, here. Yes, Chase pulled away, but the friend group does appear to have been happy to let him. And believe me, I really understand how tempting it is to follow the path of least resistance. Also, I have the impression (perhaps wrongly?) that they were all Hank's friends first, so perhaps their taking Hank's side is somewhat to be expected, though still not really right. After all, Stacy knew Hank first, but she made a point of reaching out to Chase as well as to Hank. Real friends check up on friends, as Stacy did, several times, and then accept the wanderer back when he or she is finally ready, as Stacy did. Even Trey didn't find a way to give a text or call to Chase—surely there were opportunities when Carlos wasn't looking. Stacy was there for Chase, even when Chase was unable to respond to her overtures. It's why he eventually did respond, and why he trusts that her invitation to Trey and Carlos was motivated by love, and not a desire to meddle. (The same as with Charles, actually. Charles was intentionally meddling, but he knew just how far to push and when to back off, not to mention that Chase trusts him profoundly.) The big unresolved issue for me here is that Hank is going to have to acknowledge to the friend group that he had a fling with Cave-in. (C'mon, Gary, you knew someone was going to bring him up! 😂) Remember that Stacy didn't know until Chase told her, so presumably no one else did, either. While it is true that Cave-in's complaints that Hank "played" him have probably let the cat out of the bag, Hank still needs to do the upright thing and acknowledge the abortive affair. The reason for this is his monumental jealousy over Dawson, while at the same time telling Chase that he had no right to an opinion regarding his fling with Cave-in. Chase has remarked on this double-standard, so I assume (and hope) he's going to bring it up when Hank tries to reconcile. Hank is right that his sleeping with Kevin didn't constitute cheating on Chase, because the relationship was over, but the same logic would have applied to Chase and Dawson had they actually slept together, and Hank needs to acknowledge that. (More for his own sake, than for Chase's, actually.) At least Hank appears to be slowly dealing with some of his faulty thinking, and that's a good thing, no matter what.

I found this chapter rather sad. It's clear that Chase and Hank still have feelings for each other, but whether they should seek an immediate reconciliation, as some commenters appear to think, is still an open question in my book, and I'm still leaning toward No. Hank still has a lot to figure out, and he may need professional help with that, so it's probably not a good idea for them to try to reconnect just yet. And in any case, the relationship probably needs to be set on a whole new basis, if it's going to work going forward. I am convinced that the past is not salvageable. For one thing, Chase has grown too much to again be satisfied with the kind of dependency he had with Hank before. Yes, their friends can see that the two of them still care for each other, but they have no clue about the underlying dysfunction that needs to be dealt with, and so they shouldn't be pushing. I know that "your friends know your inmost thoughts and feelings better than you yourself do" is a treasured trope in this kind of fiction, but Gary is a much better author than to fall into that trap. (And yes, I've always also detested the kind of movie where the two characters hate each other's guts until they fall into each other's arms and kiss.) In any case, I trust Chase's instincts over those of his friends. If Chase and Hank really want to be together in the future, they are sure to find a way, but it won't work if anyone interferes. Charles has done what he can and has quite reasonably stepped back to let time do its work. The aspect of this chapter that made me really sad, however, is how it shows that Chase is still not valued by his former group of friends, apart from Stacy. It has taken orders from Hank for them to reach out to Chase, and that just feels so sad to me. I wish they valued Chase for himself and had reached out to hear Chase's side of the story before taking Hank's part. If anyone had kept in touch with him, they'd have known that Dawson wasn't anything more than a friend, and they wouldn't still need the convincing that this chapter has now shown is necessary. And I'm still upset that they jumped to conclusions about Chase and Dawson on the basis of very little evidence. (Internalized homophobic stereotypes notwithstanding, gay men can and do hang out with good-looking gay men without having to put the make on them.) But I'm glad to see the friends at least following their marching orders from Hank, for what it's worth. I just wish Chase had some other, better friends (besides Dawson and Stacy, I mean) to lean on. At least he has Dr. Chorney (though that's not the same thing).

These are really aware kids! When I was five, I had no idea yet that there even was such a thing as high school, much less what was going on there. And when I was fifteen, I had no idea of how my high school teams had done in the years before I was born. (Nor did I care, to tell the truth!) I can see that this is going to be an interesting story.

I get your point, too, buddy. I just meant that I, being an ornery cuss, would have made Brent a tad ornery, too! Of course they're made for each other, but I think Brent should really have made Dawson work just a little bit harder before giving in, lol! Unlike some other character, who shall remain nameless, who didn't wait at all before indulging in Hanky-pany! You know, it occurs to me that if the child were named Kenneth David, we could call him K.D. Perry. 🤣 (Just sayin'!)

If I'd been writing it, Brent would probably have resisted longer before allowing Dawson to move in. Not that I think they're wrong for each other, but he's got an awful lot to deal with, and they are beginning their marriage under a great deal of added stress, when just moving in with a partner can be stressful enough. I hope they make it through. Now, Hank and Chase, on the other hand, I'm beginning to hope will not try to get back together. I still maintain that they've done enough to each other that the remaining affection between them is no longer enough to rekindle what they had. Chase's reaction to the marriage proposal was practically designed to push all Hank's buttons, and Hank's affair with Kevin was probably more damaging to Hank than even to Chase. What they really need is to start anew. If I were in the story, I wouldn't be pushing them to get back together; I'd be advising them to try to build a friendship and see how that goes, before even considering whether to sleep together again. If they can't respect each other at least as friends, a sexual relationship, much less a marriage, would stand no chance. Hank's jealousy of Dawson is going to be a big hurdle to overcome, as is the double standard he's been using—judging Chase for his connection with Dawson, while justifying his connection with Kevin. (He knows he did wrong, because he never told any of their friends that he and Kevin were having sex together.) Whatever his reasons for that fling might have been, he needs to look long and hard at them and to deal with the underlying issues, before attempting to be with Chase again. Too bad he doesn't appear to have the equivalent of Dr. Chorney in his life.

Let's pop a big-ass bowl of popcorn and settle down to watch!! 🤣

"There's a Small Hotel"--Rodgers & Hart "On the Street Where You Live"--Lerner & Loewe "Somewhere"--Bernstein & Sondheim "Ain't Misbehavin' "--Waller, Brooks, & Razaf "Stardust"--Carmichael & Parish

I've been thinking about chapter 11 in the context of this discussion, and it's unfortunate that Chase said, "it’s pretty obvious you and I are done like dinner." That phrasing has to have led Hank to believe that Chase is the one who has given up hope. I wonder if Chase had said something more like, "it's clear you consider us to be done like dinner," whether that might not have provoked a discussion that would have brought out Hank's real wishes. I also wonder what would happen if Chase were, God forbid, to say something like, "Jeez, I really wish we were still together." I understand why he doesn't say that, but I'm beginning to wonder if it might not actually lead somewhere, now that Hank appears to be getting over himself a bit. P.S.--If they do reconcile, how many diamonds does Hank have to give Chase every anniversary to make up for sleeping with the cavernous hole that is Kevin?

Sheesh! And you have the nerve to complain about our puns?🤣

Oh, but beauty needs no reason . . .

What you do with Uranus is your business. As long as it's between two (or more) consenting adults, there's not a problem. . . 🤣