W_L

Darn, I am starting to feel like I should have wrote an HP fan fiction. PT forgot to quote my words, but that was my story concept he was referencing. I view a Dumbledore/Voldemort relationship to be like a Master/disciple thing, Japanese variant of age structured homosexuality. (No I am not saying I would make Dumbledore into a pedophile, but it would be a progressive relationship that blossoms as Tom riddles grows up, then breaking up as both follows a different path.) However, I don't write fan fiction that was just an example.

I guess my thought was connected with entertainment and creativity in one. If you are creating stories that people enjoy, it seems like you are writing based on the audiences defined interest. A lot of science fiction today is based around that concept, your audience defines you. If audiences like robots with emotions, then the writers or film makers create a story about a robot that is filled with human flaws. (Asimov had already done that a dozen times and Ridley Scott incorporates it every time in his Alien franchise). However, if you the writer want to create a robot that perceives things without human concepts, without aesthetics or senses of taste/smell/texture in human sense, even adapting its own independent reactions to phenomenon The audience might not understand the robot, but it is a being that should not be anthropomorphic in the first place or so human that it is no longer a machine. Philip K Dick is a good example of a writer that created the audience, not the other way around. Dick wrote about worlds with suspicion and dystopias that readers of his day were not huge fans. However, stories like Blade runner, Total Recall, and Minority Report were not famous in their time, but developed followings during their movie debuts. Most Sci-Fi writers, including TV writers, are not pushing the limits to create an audience rather they are feeding the audiences with the same recycled plots and stories that forerunners have already traversed.

I know you forgot the quote My ideas are too out there to be accepted. I don't like traditional good vs. evil archetypes with good winning every time, so triumphant anti-villains are staples for me.

Continue that story about "the roaming city", haven't ever read a story where the city moves around paralleling the shifts in power between upper and lower class within. (I know you meant roaring just want to point out how it could be new I took the spelling error and redid the entire story with complex thematic elements ) I think Mark meant more literal "use of existing material", like if your main characters in a story about a wealthy oil family in Texas was named JR and Bobby Ewing Then, you slash their kids in a semi-incestuous relationship, since they are actually half brothers due to a past affair between their common father.....You get what I mean without revealing how much of a Soap junkie I am. True, you are being creative, but stories that just borrow plot elements from existing work lacks the writers own inception, so Mark is against that part of it. Mark is just expressing his opinion, he doesn't like fan fictions that do that. If I wanted to write a HP fan fic, i'd go in an alternate universe, where Neville is the hero of the story and make Harry a great supporting character. I would change the dynamics of all the characters, reverse and warp the concept of good and evil with Dumbledore being a seemingly benign dictator seeking to dominate the magical world with his Army of disciples and Voldemort, his ex pupil and ex-lover (yes, I'd go there ) building a force against him from the outsiders of magical society. Theme wise, I'd stress more on the areas untouched by Rowling: the notion of social alienation, how power can easily be abused, and the complexities between true heroism and villains. Luckily for everyone, I don't write fan fics

I just got a thought from the fan fic thread. How far can a single filmmaker or writer's creativity last in any genre or any genre's creativity last in human interest. Looking at mainstream science fiction today, I am rereading stories that I know Asimov and Heinlein went over 60 years ago. Watching TV, despite how entertaining Dr. Who can be, storylines seem like rehash of old stories after a while. Star Trek used to ascribe this to fatigue on part of writers and audiences. Yet, I think it's another issue, creativity limits within any plot or story. Does anyone think stories and universe have creativity limits?

Uh....whenever Twilight fan fiction is mentioned, I automatically think of Fifty Shades of Grey That is commercially, the most successful fan fic story ever, but literally, I don't think any of us would praise it. At 70 million plus books sold, that book was faster selling than Harry Potter or its original source novel Twilight, so it raises an interesting question about popular taste rising above quality. That's the counterpoint to originality.

Taking Star Trek as an example: Star Trek to me has come to mean a paradox in writing. A utopian future based on space exploration, but it also holds dark elements of militarism. It's extremely hard to balance a Utopian vision and a military structure together in one package, which is why many writers fail at writing Star Trek fan fictions or even episodes, wink wink "Enterprise" For me, Star Trek Into Darkness was a fan fiction creation of JJ Abrams, too many rehashed themes from Wrath of Khan. That is a perfect example of what good writers should never do in their writing. (So happy he's moving on to Disney and Star Wars, lol ) A classic Star Trek story like, Yesterday's Enterprise, from the TNG era takes classic ideas from the original series, i.e. a war with the Klingons, and push the universe to its limits based on established themes, including a far more militaristic Starfleet. It can easily be fan fiction, but it rises above regular fan fiction, because there's originality.

How about reimagining classics with new characters, plots, and ideas. I am a huge fan of the new BSG for its daring moves that reinvents the old series. Modern fiction is filled with reinventions on classics like "Once upon a Time" reinvented fairy tales. Is that fan fiction or original work to reinvent classics? One idea I have been playing with in my head for years is recreating another authors work with their input. In cooking, there is deconstruction, so why not writing? I think a good fan fic must be independent of its source material and seeks ground the original author missed or feared to venture.

Krista what if this is the Twillight Zone version of Time Travel and YOU ARE JANE AUSTEN!

Alright, last background detail and a note for Asamav Note: In my novel, when he does come into the picture, I split off two separate concepts about the monkey King. In "Journey to the West", it is mentioned that he attained an immortal body due to his consumption of immortal fruits, immortal pills, and other things in heaven. I took that idea and thought about its implications to ascension in both the Buddhist concept and how I want the concept to work in my novel. The monkey king would never be able to ascend with an immortal body; thus, his soul was given Buddhahood. In that way, he was able to ascend beyond the three realms and six cycles of reincarnation, but his body remains on the human realm. In my novel, his body is preserved by Taoists as a relic and a highly important example of the apex of evolutionary genetic enhancements. His birth can be considered an accident and fluke of nature, events, and circumstance, but the results have been something that Taoist of the Wood Elemental group have tried to replicate for centuries. The cells in his body repair itself without need of food or nutrients, it does not age, and continues to live despite the lack of an active consciousness. The Buddha soul of the monkey king has to return to his immortal body though due to an incident. That's not going to be in my first part/case, it will probably be the second or later as I introduce this universe to you all. Now as for the last detail: Leadership Despite the fact that one protagonist is the holder of the Book of Fate, he cannot assume leadership of the Taoists groups, because he is not "perfected" enough. He also committed a prior indiscretion against the rules of the society. Instead he must serve as Chief adviser to the leader. I take this concept from Classic Chinese stories about the Chu-Han Contention and Three Kingdoms, especially. While minister like Xiao hao and Zhuge Liang were far better in strategy, ability, and even magic in the latter's case than their future emperors, they served them as advisers. In Chinese culture, people of the greatest knowledge are ranked 2nd to people who can manage knowledge. In this way, I am adding the influence of Confucian principles, which are important to Asian culture, since Confucian ideals have been passed from China to every other nation in Asia for at least a thousand years. In my novel, there is a big issue later due to Confucian doctrine, which you will get to see. Outside of the secret Taoist society, my two main characters are both working for law enforcement, under temporary assignment. The Taoist main character is a Forensic expert, who analyzes crime scenes for clues and uses his own special advanced knowledge of sciences to pursue the most dangerous criminals. He is a 1st generation Chinese American. *Note: I know some of you might say "haha a plot hole", why not just use the book to find out "Who did it?" The Book of Fate will tell you "Past, Present, and Future" as I said, but it will not know more than what the subject of the inquiry. If a person is killed by his butler in the kitchen, the Book of Fate will read "The butler killed him in the Kitchen with 5 inch knife". However, if the person does not know his killer, the book of Fate will real "He killed him with a 5 inch knife in the kitchen". The Book of Fate is very specific to its subject. Even if you possess all the knowledge in the world in the form of a universal Encyclopedia, without a table of content or index to direct its query, you will search for all eternity without answers. As for the other main character, he's another law enforcement specialist. He deals with Criminal profiling and has a gift, he's an empath. Everyone has heard enough about telepaths reading minds and solving mysteries from the last 50 years of Science fiction, but empaths seem to play 2nd fiddle. Having the gift of empathy allows the person to feel what others feel or felt. Using this gift, the character can identify a suspect and create a profile based on strong emotions, even partial memories due to the strength of emotions left behind at crime scenes. From this information, he can draw a profile os suspects and attempt to capture them. The 2nd main character is a Buddhist, 3rd generation Chinese American. There's a third main character/supporting main character, who is with the Taoist character all the time, but I would not consider him present. There's a lot of complications due to his presence and it creates a fun little menage de trois, since of course, all three are gay. What are the cosmic odds? (Especially, since their creator is deep thinking gay Chinese guy ) That's the last bit of stuff you will get before I write up this story in its full version.

No problem, but I fear only you and I will know our theologies Eastern theology is an amazing place to gather reference, myths, and philosophy. For example it's easy to hate kitsune for being an evil being, but a reason why I chose it as my antagonist is due to sufferring. It is a creature filled with greed, conflict, ignorance of its harm, and hate, all considered roots of sufferring. Also, remember due to GA prohibitions religion cannot be discussed in forums, only in blogs.

What is living energy if not blood I have to blend science with myth. My presentation of "the ever victorious buddha" or in his taoist in carnation sun wukong/monkey king is a matured version of journey to the west version. He still is s monkey and extremely powerful, but through his journey learned a lot. I love kitsune and it hopefully will be a great touchstone between tradition and modern portraits. Correct me if I am wrong, but when a taoist god is casted out of heavenly realm he/she goes to da yu and must go to human reincarnation cycle at least in classical chinese literature. Poor piggy had to endure 1000 ill fated loves. Historically after the 11th century CE, Buddhist reincarnation principles became part of accepted Chinese traditions. There was a Taoist and Buddhist blending in classical literature all the way up to modern fiction.

My dear Zombie, there's an alternative theory to multiverse theory, it's called the self-consistency principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle It's like the movie 12 Monkeys, no matter what Bruce Willis does, he is doomed to die in front of his childhood self and unleash the plague that will destroy mankind. Time travel exist in a consistent universe, where there is no possible way of making changes in time. If a butterfly flaps its wings in Paris, it might create a monsoon in Bangladesh, but does that mean if a butterfly does not flap its wings, there will be no monsoon in Bangladesh?

Another Teaser If I am going to write with eastern mythology, folklore, traditions, philosophies, and religions in mind; I can't ignore the subject of strange beings. Now, I can write them all off as Aliens, which would work for my scientific premise, but I think that's a blatant act of bad writing and imagination nowadays. Sure a few could have been alien astronauts, but it does not do the ancient stories justice. In my novel, some monsters and demons are results of ancient Taoist experiments on human animal hybridization. Chinese literature is full of demons with animal attributes, so genetic engineering isn't that far out in terms of my premise. The most famous demon of them all is my primary antagonist. It has existed in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Asian literature for centuries as an entity of pride, arrogance, and sexual lust I am speaking of the "Gau mei wu", Kitsune, or in english the Nine Tailed Fox demon. In classical Chinese literature, it is credited for seducing the king of Shang Dynasty and bringing about its collapse, when it committed atrocities, murdering the innocent, and usurping the throne for itself in its human female form. In modern media, due to the success of Naruto and other Japanese Anime, the Nine Tailed Fox has reached even wider acknowledgment. It is the best and most famous antagonist of Eastern literature, but I will put a spin on it for my novel. As for other beings like Gods, I will mention them and maybe make a few cameos, but as in classical Taoist tradition most of them are merely ascended human beings. Gods have rules of engagement with mortals and Taoist masters; 1. They cannot interfere with normal human interactions, including falling in love human beings, but they break it as they are still very much human beyond their power. 2. Their ascended state may give them a non-linear understanding of reality, but they cannot reveal those secrets to regular humans. Even their fellow taoist are limited in what they may ask based on what they could themselves accomplish over time. 3. Their immortality is only due to their nonlinear existence, if they descend to earth, they are mortal once again. The enforcing agent is something far higher than they are, Tao or a Supreme God or the clock if you're a Deist, it's all the same in principle anyway It's basically a boring existence to be a God in eastern pantheon, you live by strict rules and have strict punishments. Even in my novel, I take the idea of ascension as merely a state of life rather than power itself. It's a reason why many Gods break the rules in Chinese mythology and are punished with mortality. It's why most Taoist stopped trying to ascend into this level of existence. As for other creatures and beings: 1. Vampires do exist in Chinese mythology, they Are not Twillight type vampires, I need to make that very clear. Chinese myths hold that Vampires are soulless corpse roaming the earth living off human blood. They resemble western Zombies rather than Vampires. In my novel, I will probably mention them 2. Zombies exist in Southeast Asian customs, not Chinese really. These creatures are re-animated corpses that do the bidding of powerful shamans and wizards. They are connected with some extremely black magic according to myths. They are really interesting and underdeveloped in horror, so they need some fine strokes by a writer 3. Ghosts are a staple in every Asian Culture with varying degrees of identities. Some are benevolent and guard their lovers and family after death. Others are vengeful and will kill anyone that crosses their path, then absorb their souls to remain in existence. In my novel, Ghosts are a form of human consciousness, not ascended to a higher level such as godhood or even a personal "heaven", nor able to reincarnate into the life cycle due to too much attachment to some person or event. I am going to write extensively about different classes of ghosts. 4. Werewolves, they are mentioned in some traditions as half human and half wolves. The Mongols believed that they were descended from a wolf goddes in their mythology, which is quite interesting if you ever read into its. In my novel, werewolves exist because dogs and wolves were the earliest domesticated animals, they were the earliest to be experimented on. Not quite human and not quite animal, they appear human by nature, but hosts a different consciousness and innate abilities. I have a soft spot for pups 5. I am not going to use concepts of God or Devil of Judeo Christian religion, but Zoroastrian God is going to be mentioned. It's prototype of Judeo-Christian theology,, so in a way, I am going to the roots of Monotheism for reference material. Sure there will be malevolent and benevolent entities, but that's Zoroastrianism first Buddha as in the original Buddha will be mentioned and the religion of Buddhism of course is going to be mentioned. Buddhist ascension is kind of different than what the Taoist are aiming for in my novel and in real life. Taoism is aimed toward outer knowledge, i.e. scientific development in my novel. Buddhism is aimed towards inner knowledge, i.e. psychological and internal understanding. You will also meet an old familiar buddha from Classical Chinese and Indian literature, who is as playful and powerful as the stories surrounding him have been passed down.I will give you a hint, he has a tail and a was a Taoist before he followed a monk. 6. Some interesting mystical items will come around: If you watched or read "Fengshen Bang" or other things like it, you'll probably remember which Items these are A lot of the technology that the 5 elemental schools have been passed into myth and collector items with dangerous results. This is more Warehouse 13 territory, but it's also quite fun to think about these items in a scientific context. 7. Last, but not least, I am including some human based special abilities in this story. Nothing massive, but simple little things like Telepathy and Empathy. There will not be telekinesis or pyro-kinesis though I have an idea on how to make it work with tech. I am laying down a lot of things for people familiar with eastern literature and those who are not. So that's a little more detail

Another Background blog entry, I am such a big tease This is going to be novel, a real full length one. If it is something that really gets going, who knows. The Five Elements: In Asian mysticism, there are several well known elemental concepts that Eastern beliefs based their entire religious and philosophical principles on. There are differences between cultures and views on what elements belong in the cycle. For instance, Japanese tradition have the "Wind" and "Void" elements in their cycle, which the Chinese and Southeast Asian mystics do not hold. Of course I will explore the variations and interpretations these elements have in my story with scientific applications, even if they are outside normal conventions. In my upcoming story, the Chinese Taoists, who kept studying the sciences, split into five disciplines based around the philosophical 5 Elements: Metal: Representing applied sciences and engineering. This group researched the applications of practical discoveries and turned them into devices, tools, and structures. Wood: Biological development is the basis of this group's research efforts. Wood is considered in Chinese mysticism as a representation of life. This group is probably the most ethically ambiguous of the secret society in my novel, because they actively engaged in Genetic engineering, human-animal hybridization, and several eugenics based experiments. Water: They are the medical and healing based research group with chemistry as focus. Though they share the "Wood" groups investigative desire in biology, they are far more ethical and probably the most empathetic of the entire secret society. Fire: Military and combat applied research groups with physics as focus. They are both ethical and unethical depending on how you view their research lines in weapons. Their desire is to end all wars by seeking the ultimate advantage in technological sophistication. These aren't brutish thugs with guns, they are strategic, intelligent, and deadly serious. Earth: They are the group centered on investigating new frontiers first, basically the theoretical sciences. From them comes the concepts for all the other lines. I am basing my five elemental group division on classic Chinese principles based on each elements importance and place in the cycle. For instance, Earth in the elemental order would be disrupted by metal, which is like a shovel being used on soil. At a deeper level, while Earth may hold all the elements, when mankind applies understanding in the form of technology in Metal, it changes the 5 elemental balance and a new cycle must begin again. Hope that gives everyone something to think about

Before I post my story, I want to first establish some common concepts. In ancient China, there were many superstitions about Taoism and Taoists followers, including their ability to perform magic, increase a human lifespan, and communicate with spirits, Gods, and other beings beyond the realm of man. The mystic tradition of Taoism still believes in the powerful potential of studying Taoist texts like the Tao te Ching and performing traditional rituals that were borrowed from spiritualists during the era of the Hundred Schools of Thought. My story takes the traditional roots of Taoism and reflect it on the non-mystical side. Not all Taoists believed in magic spells and hocus pocus. There were other scholars, who reflected on the Tao te Ching as a book of natural observation and sought empirical evidence to justify natural phenomenon. The creators of Paper, Gunpowder, presses/machines, and the Compass were followers of the second school of thought. In my story, I pushed their concepts further: What if they didn't stop with the Big 4 Chinese inventions? What if a secret society of Taoist had continued on this path and mastered technologies centuries ahead of their time? Early Chinese experiments in rocketry and chemistry could have led eventually to space travel. Machines could have been developed and became far more intricate; perhaps even influencing others. Magnetism could have led to advances in physics; perhaps even something extremely destructive. Paper could have been the first resource of secret communications between groups of researchers. Unlike the western world, most Asian nations never experienced a dark age with the loss of prior knowledge, but instead mysticism and "order" under Confucian principles eclipsed scientific investigations as Chinese culture changed and this change spread during the late 14th and 15th centuries. However, that's not to say I want to abandon magic. Arthur C. Clarke made the correct note on this: What prompted the early Taoist to make such leaps and bounds in science, when most of the world was still living by superstition and fear? Science was in its infancy in antiquity, Archimedes and the Egyptians were thousands of miles apart from the 7 Kingdoms that would one day form China. What if they found something, something that they were perhaps destined to find. In Chinese superstition, there are many powerful "books of knowledge" in Taoist mystic tradition. Beyond the Tao Te Ching, there is the I Ching, which is noted as one of the earliest forms of Chinese records and philosophical concepts. Beyond the two well known books, there are other more obscure texts, including one that the Novel's protagonist is heir to, The Book of Fate. In my novel, the Book of Fate can reveal the past, the present, and the possible futures to its owner; allowing him to hold knowledge itself in his hands; Another Book of knowledge to make an appearance in my novel is, The Book of Life and Death, but western viewers will know this book by the Anime "Death Note", which is the Japanese equivalent concept. The Underlying rule is the same for "the Book of Life and Death" and "Death Note", you write a name in and the person dies. However, universal equilibrium means that for each name written into the book, another name must be written off. To kill someone outside of his time to die, someone who should die must be allowed to live. Hope that little preview give you guys an idea.

Lol forgot t was ever asked. Implausible is the answer, though as a gay author not impossible. You can slash and make any straight guy fall for anyone in fiction. Why not read some stories from the authors here or write your own. Okay lets kill this

I'd be a tourist with a time machine: visit the dinosaurs and sneaze like homer simpson, flip the pyramids architectural plans upside down, attempt Hitler's assasination (cuz that's what everyone does with a time machine), and kill my own grandfather a quantum second before or after my dad or moms conception. The universe needs a middle finger pointed at it.

No need to apologize for potential wrongs yet to come. Life is too precious to hold a grudge on anyone. I wish you and your family well during these hard times ahead

Ashi, you're giving me a lot of ideas (Write your short story before I start plotting ) Being around Chinese restaurants, in and out of the family, I get what you mean. It is so suffocatingly hot in there. Steamers boiling up and heat from Woks burning on full is horrible. When I was a kid, I visited my aunt's restaurant in Detroit and it was a horrible experience. I was sitting on a stool answering phones for my aunt for deliveries in the same kitchen (kind of a joke job as my mom was visiting her sister and brought me along with her), my younger cousin does that job usually and he smiled to see me take over for him. I've done dry heat and wet saunas in the last few years, but nothing in those rooms even neared the temperatures of those kitchens. It's a combination of both things at the same time, because you can feel the moisture in the air, but also the heat as you're breathing in. (Coming from Working class family to Middle class profession, I know how different the two worlds can be, just never thought about writing it down). However, I love cooking and food. I do avoid several meats though like Rabbits (poor bunnies), snakes (eww....enough said), and turtles (they don't do anything to you).

Don't get me started On the flip side though, I have a lot of things to say about restaurant culture; it is so aggressive and angry. Cooks, chefs, and owners might look nice on the outside, but underneath it all, they have horrible tempers (Gordon Ramsey might play angry asshole for TV, but the reality isn't that far from Reality TV) As a Chinese kid growing up in the US, where every 1/3 of you Chinese friends' dads work at restaurants (Mine does too), it is like "So did he a) Yell and lecture you to stop playing Sega and do your chores, b. He brought home some left over roast pork lo mein for dinner, or c): He tells you about his crappy life and warns you to study hard and never work in a Chinese restaurant. I guess that's another alternative lifestyle that guys can try for work, be a Chinese line cook.

I think we're talking two different, though similar, things Zombie. I am thinking in terms of general standards of law that human beings have created through natural development, i.e. principles of freedom. You seem to be pointing to the process of legislation by which a parliament creates laws through centuries of development. They're not mutually exclusive concepts though. I agree with you that the Terror laws have outlived their utility and threatens the basic civil liberties on which human civilization throughout the world is founded on. The fight against terror is not a mechanical war of intelligence, weapons, and technology, but a war of ideologies and human interaction. Nations and people will not stop every lone wolf terrorist with a radical idea or zeal through surveillance, but instead, nations and people are merely entrenching themselves into a static defense, like a medieval castle protecting the commoners against Barbarian raiders. Wait until their defenses clash with the Mongol Hordes of Genghis Khan We have fought against ideological extremism before in the past in both our nations, Great Britain had your "The Trouble" and the US had "Race riots". What's the difference between terror from the 60's and 70's to the modern threats?

You're thinking of Tim, laws are human made not godly Where laws are derived is what I view as most important. I see freedom as a function and extension of natural standards.The rule of law cannot exceed what human civilization, not merely nation or society, deems acceptable or else the argument against dictators, tyrants, genocide, and other "evils" are meaningless.Standards function as fixed points in ideals rather than floating earl grey tea leaves I am not a monarchist conservative

Ask yourself, "do I feel good wearing this to work or will it impede my job?" If what you wear, tattoo, or whatever doesn't alter the character of your performance or ability to do the job, but instead makes you happier in the workplace, why banish it? I wear the same boring things week by week, but I don't care if another manager wears cargo shorts and a T-shirt, unless a client is making a visit or has a sales meeting. Being a professional does not mean that you must always look and behave like a drone in the office; if your office permits it, bring a pair of running shorts and a sleeveless shirts with sneakers for an after lunch jog. As for alternative lifestyle or alternative....Well, it's Massachusetts for me, so Gay is not on the fringes. We have a Vegan IT guy, who has a section of the fridge with hummus, almond milk, and other stuff. We have a Born-Again Christian, who has a Bible near her during work. (I can imagine a reality TV show based on our setup, "the Real American Office" ). The only alternative lifestyle that we may have problems in accepting well is "Cat people", since most of the office are either former dog owners or current dog owners

Trebs, I want to offer you coverage if I could On the flip side of things, on the hospital and insurance fronts, it's messy. While HIPAA has pushed procedures and accountability up for everyone, there's a cashflow issue within Hospitals. Of the costs a hospital actually pays out, I can tell you from experience almost 60-70% comes from doctors billable hours. They make about 2.5 times more than me on average before taxes. In the past, Hospitals and health centers used State augmented funds to offset the costs of doctors between billing and receipts of insurance premiums. That stopped 2 years after Massachusetts adopted our Health Care reform act. Cash issues are compounded by our net terms from Insurers; you may see a bill for $100,000 for surgery on your details, but the Hospitals cannot collect the entire amount. For Blue Cross Blue Shield for instance, you would need to wait 90 days to see payment. The Blue Cross adjuster would fix in a rate against the billed $100,000, paying about $25,000 to the Hospital. Now that doesn't seem that bad, but if your doctor and nurse costs for those 3 months amounted to $42K (30K for a single "new" doctor with an average of 120K/annual + 12K for 3 nurse practitioners), you're talking about net loss in those 3 months of $(17)K. In essence Trebs, don't think what's on your bill is actually paid to the hospital. News reports might state big numbers, but insurance industry is not stupid. They use CMA (US Center for Medicare) standards for adjusters to bring every penny billed down to the legal minimum. Sometimes, if your hospital is part of a larger network, you can force a premium adjustment based on volume, i.e. while the adjusted payment is only 25K, insurers can add back in 30K due to hospitals hitting a managed care goal of 100 patients.The bigger hospital networks can make a profit, but nothing like what News stories seem to suggest. For smaller hospital like my old firm, our margins were squeezed so badly that we had to mortgage out Medicare payments to meet payroll during the HIT conversion. It's ugly. From my standpoint, I wouldn't mind something simpler; I've been in health care for 5 years now from several angles of the finance side. Maybe this detail is going to go over everyone's heads, but still it is very common knowledge in the industry.