An apt analogy - imagine if some German states were still flying the swastika, even as just the canton on a broader flag, and how it would make Germans citizens feel. I pity all African Americans in Southern States who have some hatred built-in from your elected officials flaunting 'pride' for your former degradation in the very colors of their 'statehood.' Stand up and change it. It's well past time to do so!        

The Confederate flag needs to die a death here in the United States. It is quite frankly, shameful, that an entire region of this country embraces it as THE symbol of their heritage. The South just can't help but to continue to embarrass itself on the national and world stage. The fact that most southern politicians were in support of keeping the flag up (even after the shooting) until today is a disgrace. 

Why always boggled my mind is why an entire region takes pride in the losing side of conflict, guess one has to be a member of the Former Confederacy: The Loser Club.

You would have to be Southern to understand. We're stubborn. If you tell us what we have to do, we'll give you the finger.

We also like to point out that we blistered yankee ass at odds less than 4:1. It took odds greater than that to dig us out.

We're still pissed off about the rape of the South during Reconstruction where cowardly Northern Imperialists/robber barons permanently crippled the economies of the South with a long and humiliating occupation and corrupt political manipulation.

We are also quite tired of being slammed for the sins of our fore-fathers by political opportunists who don't know jack shit about the South or our unique culture.

Why do we seek to hold onto our flags? After being humiliated, spit on and driven into enforced poverty, over and over for generations, all you have is your pride. You should think of that flag as the South's middle finger.

I used to support the Stars and Bars simply as being part of a heritage, and still believe it has its place in museums and such, but I wish South Carolina would take it down from the capitol building now. 

Brave individuals fought and died under that flag, as their only knowledge of politics was local or regional, and Southern states were being invaded, as they saw it. Their allegiance belonged to their homes, and they served honorably. Many were conscripted. All throughout history, soldiers have served honorably in ignoble causes.

The Confederate Battle Flag has been adopted by hate groups, and is now a rallying point, and that's why I want to see it pulled down from State buildings. The State should distance itself from hatred, and that's what the flag has come to represent.

The Supreme Court, just this month, heard a case in which the Sons of Confederate Veterans sought to force the state of Texas to issue a license plate with the Stars and Bars on it. They argued it was freedom of speech. The state refused, and the Court supported the state, stating that the state should not be forced to be seen as supporting the statement. I think that's the way it should be.

Did the South lose the war? Absolutely. Did the North then enforce nearly a generation of occupation and abuse of the vanquished? Dead right. The abolition of slavery was a crippling economic blow to the South, a rural agrarian society founded on cheap labor. Occupation by corrupt and demeaning reconstructionists was salt in the wound. Northerners wonder at Southern willfulness, but think nothing of saying, "You lost," as if that matters any more.

Lemme just say this to all the Northerners out there. I didn't lose the Civil War. You didn't win the Civil War. That was before our grandfathers were born. We supposedly are one nation now, after over 600,000 American lives were lost. I'll support pulling down the Confederate Battle Flag. Will the North ever abandon its regionalism?

I have no sympathy for the South during Reconstruction. They enslaved an entire race of people and tried to break up the United States. They continue to drag this country down with their back-ass ways and are the reason why their is still a lot of hate toward LGBT people in this country. 

You rebelled, and you lost. You got punished for rebelling, and then 100 years later had to be punished again for your continuing poor treatment of black people. Get with the 21st century and stop crying over getting your asses kicked. 

Hey Matt-

You Yankees rebelled too.

You rebelled against King George. Had you lost, would you like being called a loser and economically exploited for things that happened generations before you were born? Are you a traitor to the British Commonwealth? Is there a rope somewhere for your treason!?

While I'm slapping you off your high horse, I'd like to remind you that Southern schools were completely integrated a decade and a half before BOSTON.

Think that one through carefully.

Ask the Irish how well they were treated in the "free" North. Ask them about the company stores that kept them in debt to the company and working 16 hour days.

Both sides have huge karmic debts and neither are innocent.

I have no sympathy for the South during Reconstruction. They enslaved an entire race of people and tried to break up the United States. They continue to drag this country down with their back-ass ways and are the reason why their is still a lot of hate toward LGBT people in this country. 

 

You rebelled, and you lost. You got punished for rebelling, and then 100 years later had to be punished again for your continuing poor treatment of black people. Get with the 21st century and stop crying over getting your asses kicked. 

Matt, in AP US History, I learned that in the industrial North during the 19th century, labor conditions were terrible. The workers in the factories were essentially "slaves" Do not act as if the North was a place of virtue and progress, when it was not.

Flags are powerful things. They have meaning, they represent ideas and values.

The Confederate flags were intended to be the embodiment of collective beliefs that were horrifically cruel beyond our imaginings. They don't represent fluffy bunnies they represent a belief system based on the exploitation of black slaves as "property" - property "owned" by whites. Those who raised the Confederate flags 150 years ago were proclaiming "This is what we believe in, this is what we are fighting for."

Makes you wonder what those who raise the Confederate flag today believe in and are fighting for...
 

The reason the South seceded was due to their fear that Lincoln would abolish slavery. President Lincoln never intended to end slavery, he was just not allowing slavery's expansion into the West.

Lincoln was willing to allow slavery to continue: How is that a higher moral ground than the South having slavery? He never freed the slaves during the war either. The Emancipation Proclamation only held sway in the states that were in rebellion, and the Union had no jurisdiction there. It was at best symbolic. Slavery continued in the Border States during the war. The antebellum years are far more complex in regards to slavery and the lead up to the war.

Addendum: If I recall correctly slavery did in fact survive in a few pockets in the North well into the mid 19th Century.

With that said, I refuse to treat the Civil War as a a fight between "good vs. evil." War is never so clean-cut.

I have no sympathy for the South during Reconstruction. They enslaved an entire race of people and tried to break up the United States. They continue to drag this country down with their back-ass ways and are the reason why their is still a lot of hate toward LGBT people in this country. 

 

You rebelled, and you lost. You got punished for rebelling, and then 100 years later had to be punished again for your continuing poor treatment of black people. Get with the 21st century and stop crying over getting your asses kicked. 

I will add to James' comment. The South did not enslave an entire race all by itself. Slavery existed in the North, too. It was abolished in New York in 1827. About 20 years ago, a slave cemetery was excavated in New York City, in the Bronx. Hunts Point Slave Burial Ground National Monument. Please take a look, http://hpsbg.weebly.com/.

Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but...

1802: Ohio writes a state constitution that abolishes slavery.

1804: New Jersey begins a gradual abolition of slavery, freeing future children of slaves.[35] Those born prior to the Act remain enslaved for life. The process later becomes complete with the ratification of the 13th Amendment in 1865.

1817: New York State sets a date of 4 July 1827 to free all its ex-slaves from indenture

1820: Compromise of 1820 in US prohibits slavery north of a line (36°30′).

1820: In Polly v. Lasselle, Indiana supreme court orders almost all slaves in the state to be freed.

1827: New York State abolishes slavery. Children born between 1799 and 1827 are indentured until age 25 (females) or age 28 (males). (That means there were still slaves permitted under New York law until 1855.)

1847: Slavery is abolished in Pennsylvania, thus freeing the last remaining slaves, those born before 1780 (fewer than 100 in 1840 Census).

1863: In the United States, Abraham Lincoln issues the presidential order the Emancipation Proclamation declaring slaves in Confederate-controlled areas to be freed. Most slaves in "border states" are freed by state action; separate law freed the slaves in Washington, D.C.

1865, December: US abolishes slavery with the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution; about 40,000 remaining slaves are affected. (Note that this was after the Emancipation Proclamation freed those slaves in Confederate-controlled areas, meaning those 40,000 slaves had to have been in Northern states.)

Because the North became more industrialized more quickly, unskilled manual labor became less profitable than machinery. Had the economics been otherwise, would slavery have been abolished in the North at all, or would greed have won out? 

I don't condone slavery. I think it's abhorrent, and a blemish on all of humanity that it ever existed in any form or at any time. I'm not apologizing for it, 'cause I never bought, sold, or owned a slave, nor knew anyone who did. But I think we have to look at our past unflinchingly, all of us. Many countries around the world practiced slavery, even before the African slave trade. England, for example, in medieval times, practiced slavery, and their slaves were white. According to the Domesday Book census, over 10% of England's population in 1086 were slaves.

And I repeat, I didn't lose that war. You didn't win that war. It was over before your granddad was born.

Back to the original post, South Carolina may be moving to take down the Confederate Battle Flag.

Many countries around the world practiced slavery, even before the African slave trade. England, for example, in medieval times, practiced slavery, and their slaves were white. According to the Domesday Book census, over 10% of England's population in 1086 were slaves.

England, and later Britain, profited from the Atlantic triangular slave trade for 200 odd years from the early 17th century until abolition in 1807 (slavery was not fully abolished within the British Empire until 1833 - some exceptions remained until 1843).

This trade is recognized for the evil it was.That's the point. England / Britain's role is made very clear through education, at public memorials, in the media and at locations where the trade was centred such as London, Liverpool and Bristol. There is a lot of interest across the country in understanding what happened, the history and Britain's involvement.

The Confederate flag issue suggests this is not the case in the Southern States.

Zombie, it depends where one is in the South. Attitudes are different in the Deep South than other parts of the former Confederacy (i.e. my state of Texas)

England, and later Britain, profited from the Atlantic triangular slave trade for 200 odd years from the early 17th century until abolition in 1807 (slavery was not fully abolished within the British Empire until 1833 - some exceptions remained until 1843).

 

This trade is recognized for the evil it was.That's the point. England / Britain's role is made very clear through education, at public memorials, in the media and at locations where the trade was centred such as London, Liverpool and Bristol. There is a lot of interest across the country in understanding what happened, the history and Britain's involvement.

 

The Confederate flag issue suggests this is not the case in the Southern States.

There are certainly comparisons that can be made. In Britain, though, abolition was an internal decision. In the South, it was the result of a war. The North fought the war for good reason - preservation of the union and abolition. Without the war, abolition would have taken longer, because the South's economy was cruelly linked to slavery.

Many folks don't realize that the Battle Flag was not the official flag of the Confederacy. The official flag was banned following the war, but the Battle Flag was permitted as a memorial to those who had died on the Southern side.

Some who have rallied under the Battle Flag are ignorant of most of the history and heritage surrounding the Confederacy, but yearn for some romanticized past that never was, but in which the best of blacks was still less than the least of whites. It's this association that makes me want to see the Stars and Bars resigned to museums. Government association with this symbol perpetuates the idea that the state supports white supremacist ideology.

Racism is alive and well in lots of places. No denial, and it's gotten virulent again. But it's not just one place, and it's not everybody in any one place. Like in the 60s, government is going to have to act to reign this in again. Starting with symbols.

It just amazes me the controversy over a flag.  What about the Gold's Gym tee he is wearing.  Should we shut down those gyms?  Just wondering. 

On pride: If you can be proud of the accomplishments of your forbearers, you have to own their sins also. You can’t have only one of those in my opinion.

If you lose a war, the victor dictates the rules. It has always been like this. They take what they want, what they can use, people, art, industry, land, know-how. They cast out the people they don’t want. Or they help, if it is convenient.

And someday they can befriends again, or one nation.

We apologized, and I think it was the right thing to do.

On sins: You can’t offset sins against each other. They add. If you commit a sin, and in any place of the world, others do the same or similar things, it doesn’t alleviate your sins. Moral and ethics don’t work this way. My humble opinion again.

The swastika has and still is a symbol for luck beside other positive things. The Nazis soiled it and therefore it can’t be used without negative connotation anymore. Using it means associating with Nazis and their ideas.

We have to fight the unteachables here (in Germany) and in any other country all the time.

There was some fantastic reporting on this issue last night:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/06/24/chris_hayes_virtual_appomattox_halts_sales_of_confederate_flags_from_amazon_to_wal-mart.html

Most touching in the vid is the fact Senator Lindsey Graham has evolved. His interview almost brought a tear to my eye, and he was about the last person I ever thought I could share empathy with. 

The reporting also points out the bare facts that the Stars and Bars only arose as the symbol of the backlash against President Truman's integration of the armed services in 1948.

Scratch that.. I'm staying well out of this.