Okay so he's good. What do you think?

[AFriendlyFace]

Archer's list is good and I wish I had laid eyes on it before I started writing, but it's never too late to improve. I mean, writing is a process and you're always getting better if you work at it. Well, now I know what things to avoid. I have violated quite a few of those guidelines/rules and while I can feel crummy about it, well, it can only go up from here.

 

On the other hand, if you do use a few of the "no-no's" that doesn't necessarily make your story crappy. If it's tied in well and works for the story, then that's that. This is just a list and doesn't have to be followed exactly. It's a great general guideline, but really, there are lots of great writers who have different ideas, styles, and ways of manipulating the scenes and plot. One author doesn't have the final say.

 

And what if a story is good overall? Doesn't the package deal mean anything? Nothing is perfect. And people do have varied preferences. It's different, but not necessarily better than the other. There are a lot of good authors and I can't get into their work even if someone paid me! Their writing is still good, but not to my liking.

Well said, Tiff! I quite agree!

 

Dude, I thought you said you were dark and brooding? Now you're singing in the shower? Total poser, man.

 

Perhaps he's singing dark and brooding songs?

[RJ Santos]

Who said that anyone should stop writing?

Who, indeed?

 

But for the other things: it bothers me a lot more if a story has purple prose, completely unrealistic characters (such as Mary Sues/Gary Stus), or just a bad plot than if it has some grammar or spelling mistakes.

The simple solution here is to stop reading the story. If you want, drop the author a note and give him a few tips. But there's no saying you're right. It really depends on the audience. I mean, not everyone is looking for a literary jewel (at Nifty, especially), if they want to know the length of a certain body part and the author obliges, who is anyone to disagree?

 

But tell me: what is a bad plot?

 

And that is because his writing has other qualities that are essential for a good story.

What about the readers out there who think those qualities you say that are essential for a good story are nothing but crap? Would you say they're wrong? What do they think about you?

 

Don't get me wrong. While I don't think Dom's stories are that great, I'm not saying they're bad either. And all the same, I don't have the right to say that someone's stuff is bad writing just because their story doesn't have the stuff that I'm looking for in a story.

 

Rules are always there to help, not to hinder. Many people cook without recipes, but if you've never cooked in your life, a recipe is going to be helpful, even though cooking is an art, too. Even if you're used to cooking you may need a recipe for something you've never cooked before. In the same way, rules for writing are often helpful when you're learning to write.

I have an uncle whose taste buds are already dulled, by smoking, they said, so my aunt has to cook a little saltier for him. She has to put a little more of something just so my uncle wouldn't say her cooking's bland. Do the rest of us who sometimes eat with them think her cooking is a bunch of wonder? No, and that's why she cooks another dish for us. But it is not us who she is trying to please; it's her husband, and because he is pleased, she is happy. And cooking does need rules, like: "Don't overcook the vegetables" or "Preheat oven to X degrees". But if someone likes their vegetables overcooked or their baked stuff burnt, who am I to argue?

 

Dude... when I'm singing in the shower, I'm totally singing from my heart, but that doesn't make it *good* singing. If you'd like to contest that, I'm pretty sure I can get a few of my neighbors to corroborate.

You're honest with yourself. And that's good, right?

 

Try looking for a mountain tribe, those who doesn't know anything about pop music or haven't heard Pavarotti sing, and sing for them. I'm willing to bet that some of them are going to like it. They'll probably let you marry the chief's daughter.

[Procyon]

Archer's list is good and I wish I had laid eyes on it before I started writing, but it's never too late to improve. I mean, writing is a process and you're always getting better if you work at it. Well, now I know what things to avoid. I have violated quite a few of those guidelines/rules and while I can feel crummy about it, well, it can only go up from here.

 

On the other hand, if you do use a few of the "no-no's" that doesn't necessarily make your story crappy. If it's tied in well and works for the story, then that's that. This is just a list and doesn't have to be followed exactly. It's a great general guideline, but really, there are lots of great writers who have different ideas, styles, and ways of manipulating the scenes and plot. One author doesn't have the final say.

 

And what if a story is good overall? Doesn't the package deal mean anything? Nothing is perfect. And people do have varied preferences. It's different, but not necessarily better than the other. There are a lot of good authors and I can't get into their work even if someone paid me! Their writing is still good, but not to my liking.

 

Of course a few no-nos don't ruin a story -- they can even make it better in some cases. And the package deal means everything! That's why one can look past the smaller mistakes if it's a good story in general. That reminds me, I have to take a look at your stories.

 

Dude, I thought you said you were dark and brooding? Now you're singing in the shower? Total poser, man.

 

He was trying to convince you earlier that he's not dark and brooding...

 

 

Who, indeed?

 

I suggest you go back and read your own posts if you don't remember what you wrote in them.

 

The simple solution here is to stop reading the story. If you want, drop the author a note and give him a few tips. But there's no saying you're right. It really depends on the audience. I mean, not everyone is looking for a literary jewel (at Nifty, especially), if they want to know the length of a certain body part and the author obliges, who is anyone to disagree?

 

Well I'm glad to see that you've finally caught on! This is exactly what I meant: if you think there is room for improvement, drop the author a note -- in the form of a review, for example. It's nice that you agree.

[Tiff]

Perhaps he's singing dark and brooding songs?

 

Hmm, perhaps. I never considered that before. I wonder what a dark and brooding song sounds like.....I know it's off topic, but now I'm quite curious!

 

 

Of course a few no-nos don't ruin a story -- they can even make it better in some cases. And the package deal means everything! That's why one can look past the smaller mistakes if it's a good story in general. That reminds me, I have to take a look at your stories.

EEK. I think I violated the HUGEST no-no ever! The switching first person POV. Back then I had no idea how to write third person without messing up the pronouns. Ah well, like I said, writing has a learning curve. I won't make that mistake again. *shrug*

 

 

He was trying to convince you earlier that he's not dark and brooding...

 

I can only be convinced of his non-broodingness if I see it for myself. LOL. He seems chipper most times, but his stories show a different side of him. He'll forever be dark and brooding in my mind unless he comes up with some happy cheesy story. And what are the chances of that happening?

[glomph]

I wonder what a dark and brooding song sounds like.....I know it's off topic, but now I'm quite curious!

 

Try some of the great German lieder with texts by Romantic poets. Even the happy ones tend toward brooding.

 

One of my favorites is from Schumann's Dichterliebe. Translation from Wikipedia:

 

I do not chide you, though my heart breaks, love ever lost to me!

Though you shine in a field of diamonds, no ray falls into your heart's darkness.

I have long known it: I saw the night in your heart, I saw the serpent that devours it:

I saw, my love, how empty you are.

 

 

I think it's the next to last one in that video whose text is

When I hear that song which my love once sang,

my breast bursts with wild affliction.

Dark longing drives me to the forest hills,

where my too-great woe pours out in tears.

 

That's dark and brooding.

[AFriendlyFace]

I mean, not everyone is looking for a literary jewel (at Nifty, especially), if they want to know the length of a certain body part and the author obliges, who is anyone to disagree?

That's a good point, if you're writing a nifty sex story it might be bad writing not to include this information.

 

Which really just speaks more of the point that you have to know your audience and write accordingly. For example to go back to my Lindsay Lohan vs. Hamlet analogy, perhaps the 'trash magazine writer' could write very intelligent, meaningful literature...but it would be foolish to try to do so at the rag mag. If later on he/she wants to write 'intelligent' literature then that's certainly fine too

 

Don't get me wrong. While I don't think Dom's stories are that great, I'm not saying they're bad either. And all the same, I don't have the right to say that someone's stuff is bad writing just because their story doesn't have the stuff that I'm looking for in a story.

*gasp!*

 

**Takes off his moderator jacket to reveal a Domaholic Tee**

 

You wanna repeat that? :mace: :battleaxe: :axeman: :ranger: :2hands:

 

 

hehe, J/K

 

...mostly

 

I have an uncle whose taste buds are already dulled, by smoking, they said, so my aunt has to cook a little saltier for him. She has to put a little more of something just so my uncle wouldn't say her cooking's bland. Do the rest of us who sometimes eat with them think her cooking is a bunch of wonder? No, and that's why she cooks another dish for us. But it is not us who she is trying to please; it's her husband, and because he is pleased, she is happy. And cooking does need rules, like: "Don't overcook the vegetables" or "Preheat oven to X degrees". But if someone likes their vegetables overcooked or their baked stuff burnt, who am I to argue?

Personally, while I try to avoid junk food in general, if I'm going to eat fries I like them very much what most people would consider undercooked, and with ALOT of salt on them.

 

Try looking for a mountain tribe, those who doesn't know anything about pop music or haven't heard Pavarotti sing, and sing for them. I'm willing to bet that some of them are going to like it. They'll probably let you marry the chief's daughter.

I'm sure they will, but he'll probably have to take off his towel first.

 

Well I'm glad to see that you've finally caught on! This is exactly what I meant: if you think there is room for improvement, drop the author a note -- in the form of a review, for example. It's nice that you agree.

Well I think we can all definitely agree that authors like feedback on their work!

 

 

Hmm, perhaps. I never considered that before. I wonder what a dark and brooding song sounds like.....I know it's off topic, but now I'm quite curious!

There's only one thing to do; you'll have to sneak into Corvus' bathroom while he's taking a shower! Just don't let the chief's daughter catch you

 

EEK. I think I violated the HUGEST no-no ever! The switching first person POV. Back then I had no idea how to write third person without messing up the pronouns. Ah well, like I said, writing has a learning curve. I won't make that mistake again. *shrug*

Actually Tiff I'm really glad you brought this up because I was thinking about your story on this point. Wanna know what I was thinking? I was thinking yours was a good example of the switching POV working really well and making the story more unique and enjoyable to read!

 

I can only be convinced of his non-broodingness if I see it for myself. LOL. He seems chipper most times, but his stories show a different side of him. He'll forever be dark and brooding in my mind unless he comes up with some happy cheesy story. And what are the chances of that happening?

I think some of the most cheerful people can write some of the darkest literature, and vice versa. In fact I bet Edgar Allen Poe's nickname was Mr. Happy Pants. I can just see his friends now:

 

"Our cheerful Eddie wrote that?"

 

 

 

 

Take care all,

Kevin

[RJ Santos]

Well, if this:

If we shouldn't tell young writers what to do and what not to do, why should we tell them how to use grammar? Sure, some of it is necessary (?) in order to be understood, but conjugating verbs, for example, isn't -- in Swedish we don't, so if anyone should feel like writing 'he do' or 'she say' that should be perfectly fine.

 

I have to say though, it'd be unlikely that I'd go on reading a text with eccentricities like that after a few paragraphs -- unless it were very well done and the author was completely in command of what she or he was doing, I'd just find it too annoying.

 

And it is the same with those other no-nos on Archer's list. Maybe some of them aren't quite as annoying as bad grammar, and some of them I might not agree with, but in most cases these rules, or recommendations, are something worth adhering to, or at least taking into consideration.

meant this:

This is exactly what I meant: if you think there is room for improvement, drop the author a note -- in the form of a review, for example.

I can see why we didn't understand each other.

 

Grammar rules are rules that we should follow to write properly, like "Thou shalt not kill". Nick Archer's list is a list of the things he doesn't want to see in a story -- some of the things he listed, mine too. If you agree with him, that's fine, but don't expect others to agree with you. It's your opinion, but others also have their own opinion, which could be the polar opposite of yours.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Rad Steven

[AFriendlyFace]

It actually sounds to me like you guys aren't really in very polar disagreement.

 

Procyon said that Nick Archer's list was worth 'taking into consideration'. I very much agree. I'm not sure if you, Rad, also agree with that, but in any case it sounds like all three of us, and at least the vast majority of other posters in the thread, are of the opinion that if an author doesn't want to adhere to these rules for his story that's fine too; some may just decide not to read on.

 

I doubt anyone here would say that an author doesn't have the right to ignore the rules, or ought to just quit, or anything like that if she or he is in violation of these 'rules'. I suspect we can all agree that an author has the prerogative to tell his or her own story the way she or he sees fit, but that he or she might as well have a look at 'the list' since perhaps it is something she or he might want to bear in mind for his or her next story. After all, more information is usually a good thing. I read the list and considered the points (and commented on them) nearly a year ago. As I said at the time many I agree with and some I don't, and in my recent writing some I've borne in mind and some I haven't. I'm glad to have at least heard them though.

 

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion and if they pose this opinion in a thoughtful, constructive way the author is probably better off at least considering it. However, when it comes down to it, it's the author's story and his or her right to choose.

 

 

-Kevin

Edited June 1, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[Procyon]

It actually sounds to me like you guys aren't really in very polar disagreement.

 

Procyon said that Nick Archer's list was worth 'taking into consideration'. I very much agree. I'm not sure if you, Rad, also agree with that, but in any case it sounds like all three of us, and at least the vast majority of other posters in the thread, are of the opinion that if an author doesn't want to adhere to these rules for his story that's fine too; some may just decide not to read on.

 

I doubt anyone here would say that an author doesn't have the right to ignore the rules, or ought to just quit, or anything like that if she or he is in violation of these 'rules'. I suspect we can all agree that an author has the prerogative to tell his or her own story the way she or he sees fit, but that he or she might as well have a look at 'the list' since perhaps it is something she or he might want to bear in mind for his or her next story. After all, more information is usually a good thing. I read the list and considered the points (and commented on them) nearly a year ago. As I said at the time many I agree with and some I don't, and in my recent writing some I've borne in mind and some I haven't. I'm glad to have at least heard them though.

 

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion and if they pose this opinion in a thoughtful, constructive way the author is probably better off at least considering it. However, when it comes down to it, it's the author's story and his or her right to choose.

 

 

-Kevin

 

I completely agree. Thanks for the post, Kevin, this was getting so tiresome...

[Cynical Romantic]

I found the "Jump the Shark" list a little while ago and thought it was brilliant; he pretty much nailed all the wince-worthy clich

[Procyon]

I'm wondering why his reviews disappeared.

[corvus]

I like that this thread has turned into an aesthetics argument. My favorite...

 

 

 

What about the readers out there who think those qualities you say that are essential for a good story are nothing but crap? Would you say they're wrong? What do they think about you?

 

Don't get me wrong. While I don't think Dom's stories are that great, I'm not saying they're bad either. And all the same, I don't have the right to say that someone's stuff is bad writing just because their story doesn't have the stuff that I'm looking for in a story.

 

I disagree with you. I do have the right to say something is crap even if I enjoyed it -- and I can say something is good even if I didn't enjoy it. That's because I believe that there is a normative criterion for judging good/bad literature that quite apart from taste/enjoyment.

 

It's easy and dangerous to conflate taste/enjoyment with appreciation/acknowledgment of good literature. I believe that there's literary merit in, say, Joyce's Ulysses, even though I didn't enjoy it very much. When you say that you don't think Dom's stories are that great, you mean that you didn't enjoy them very much. At the same time, you can admit that they are well written and possess literary merit.

 

How one determines literary merit is a very good question. It holds implications regarding the deeper of questions of what art's function is in life. I won't go into that, but I will say that, for people who have done enough thinking and reading and reflection, literary taste often aligns with literary quality.

 

It's pretty obvious that I'm against hyper democracy, at least in terms of evaluation of art. I make a bad American, maybe. On the other hand, I don't want everyone to agree with me on my judgments of literature -- I simply think there exist some normative, "inalienable" and maybe "self evident truths" regarding the evaluation and determination of good literature. They won't tell me if Woolf is more "important" or "better" than Joyce, but they will tell me that Woolf works on a higher plane, accomplishes more, has greater scope, possesses a more powerful vision, than say Da Vinci Code.

 

 

 

 

I have an uncle whose taste buds are already dulled, by smoking, they said, so my aunt has to cook a little saltier for him. She has to put a little more of something just so my uncle wouldn't say her cooking's bland. Do the rest of us who sometimes eat with them think her cooking is a bunch of wonder? No, and that's why she cooks another dish for us. But it is not us who she is trying to please; it's her husband, and because he is pleased, she is happy. And cooking does need rules, like: "Don't overcook the vegetables" or "Preheat oven to X degrees". But if someone likes their vegetables overcooked or their baked stuff burnt, who am I to argue?

 

Danielle Steele writes to please the hordes of unwashed, illiterate romance readers. As long I can say that her writing isn't of high literary merit, I'm not going to argue. I *will* argue when one of her fans say she is the beeeest writer eeeever, because sorry she's not. She may be your *favorite* writer, but that's all.

 

 

 

 

Grammar rules are rules that we should follow to write properly, like "Thou shalt not kill". Nick Archer's list is a list of the things he doesn't want to see in a story -- some of the things he listed, mine too. If you agree with him, that's fine, but don't expect others to agree with you. It's your opinion, but others also have their own opinion, which could be the polar opposite of yours.

 

That's a very bad bright line. I can apply the same sort of subjectivity argument that you've been using again and again to point out the decree "Thou shalt not kill" is exempted very, very often all over the world. Ever heard of capital punishment? war? Sure, you may agree that killing is wrong, but someone else might disagree, and "who am I to argue?" On that note, I think grammar can be broken if doing so successfully serves a "higher purpose" -- that of literary creation.

 

 

 

 

Basically, I think there's nothing wrong with guilty pleasures. Trashy romance novels, Lindsay Lohan gossip, or bad Reality TV are all immensely popular, and really, we don't need a ministry of culture dictating taste or choices to us, right? Similarly, there are plenty of stories - on here and elsewhere - that violate one or more of the rules on this list, but that are fun to read, despite that. Very often, I'll read a story knowing full well that it's "a piece of trash" (not so much on here, but elsewhere) and I'll just choose to ignore that fact and enjoy it anyway.

 

But I disagree that "it's all about taste" implies that there's no such thing as good or bad writing. There are things that make a story better. Technical things like grammar and spelling. Structure. Tone. Pacing. Artful phrasing. Voice and characterization. Logical consistency. Flow.

 

I agree with you so much that I would like to marry you. Will you be available ______ for the ______? Thanks.

 

 

 

I'm wondering why his reviews disappeared.

 

Me too. I liked his reviews.

[RJ Santos]

She may be your *favorite* writer, but that's all.

Exactly.

 

 

For me, the reason Archer's list became what it is, is that a lot of people fantasized about what could be, could've been. The geek/jock romance is a perfect example of this; it's a fantasy worth fantasizing about. Just imagine that there's only one story on the planet that depicts this story... geek bumps (literally) into jock, they get along, one of their parents died and now the other's parents offered to take care of him... so on. Imagine there's only one written story about that and there's a million variant of Gone from Daylight. Imagine. Would you think the story is without literary merit? Even in the real world, I'll say there is. It's about going against the odds. It's about crossing the absurd lines that society has drawn.

 

Like I said, going back to the real world... imagine - again - that it's someone's first time at Nifty - everything began there anyway - he found one of that story and he's like "this is great". It's his first time, so cut him some slack. He finds more of the same kind and now he's like "this is really cool". But eventually he finds that there are a lot of that kind of story and he grows tired of them. But what if he had only found that one story the first time he was at Nifty?

 

 

That's a very bad bright line.

Dunno what you mean exactly.

 

 

Anyway, to be a bit off-topic - LOL - I think there's a lot more to "Thou shalt not kill" than what I've thought of it when I wrote it last. When I wrote it back then, what I thought it meant was "thou shalt not kill" the first person you meet in school, or the guy sitting next to you on the bus, or your neighbor, etc; I really hope no one disagrees with that here. Capital punishment - I agree with it (how barbaric must I be! LOL). Wars - silly events, but they happen.

[Cynical Romantic]

I like that this thread has turned into an aesthetics argument. My favorite...

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone started bringing up Immanuel Kant...

 

I agree with you so much that I would like to marry you. Will you be available ______ for the ______? Thanks.

 

ROFL! Hmmm, now that's easily the most noteworthy proposal I've ever received! I hope I don't break your heart by saying I just don't see myself going there, sorry!

 

On the other hand, I've always had a thing for writers... Hmmmmm...

 

Just imagine that there's only one story on the planet that depicts this story... geek bumps (literally) into jock, they get along, one of their parents died and now the other's parents offered to take care of him... so on. Imagine there's only one written story about that and there's a million variant of Gone from Daylight. Imagine. Would you think the story is without literary merit?

 

If your point is that clich

[Raro]

Classic literary criticism:

 

http://www.ericdsnider.com/snide/the-fanbo...nd-juliet-1595/

 

That is all.

 

-- Raro

[Duncan Ryder]

It's easy and dangerous to conflate taste/enjoyment with appreciation/acknowledgment of good literature. I believe that there's literary merit in, say, Joyce's Ulysses, even though I didn't enjoy it very much.

 

 

Corvus, what? What? You didn't like Ulysses?

 

Am I the ONLY person in the world who genuinely likes Ulysses???? I think the use of words is gorgeous.....

(but I will never be able to eat kidney....)

 

I think this list is good, and interesting, and amusing, and basically right.

 

But... I also think that rules are made to be broken and a skilled writer can breath freshness into cliches. But it takes a lot of skill. I think a story that broke a lot of the rules simulataneously would really make me groan and walk away...but one or two, skillfully managed, for a reason... that's where the line moves from craft to art.

[Graeme]

I think this list is good, and interesting, and amusing, and basically right.

 

But... I also thing that rules are made to be broken and a skilled writer can breath freshness into cliches. But it takes a lot of skill. I think a story that broke a lot of the rules simulataneously would really make me groan and walk away...but one or two, skillfully managed, for a reason... that's where the line moves from craft to art.

These aren't rules, but guidelines. And you can break them if you want, but you should be doing so deliberately, not accidentally. That's my view -- educate yourself on the guidelines, and then work out for yourself how you want to vary from them and (most importantly) why.

[Duncan Ryder]

These aren't rules, but guidelines. And you can break them if you want, but you should be doing so deliberately, not accidentally. That's my view -- educate yourself on the guidelines, and then work out for yourself how you want to vary from them and (most importantly) why.

 

 

Rules, guidelines, whatever. Generally it's about the skill in breaking them. Generally I agree that you should be doing it deliberately, but there are even exceptions to that. I'm not speaking specifically about these "guidelines", lol. But sometimes a new young, inexperienced writer can just...get it right, just with that kind of wide eyed freshness and go right to the heart of something magical... They do something magical because they don't know there are rules (or guidelines) and just...do it. But it is very very very rare, of course.

 

Like...Picasso... looking at a picture painted by a three year old and saying "It's taken me all my life to learn to paint like that..."

[Cynical Romantic]

Like...Picasso... looking at a picture painted by a three year old and saying "It's taken me all my life to learn to paint like that..."

 

Would now be a good time to admit that I actually *hate* Picasso... especially the "three year old" paintings?

[Graeme]

Would now be a good time to admit that I actually *hate* Picasso... especially the "three year old" paintings?

And would now be a good time to admit that I hate using Picasso as an example, because the vast majority of us are not in that league...?

 

But I see Duncan's point. The only problem is, as he admitted, that the reality is more likely to be the other way around.

[Duncan Ryder]

Would now be a good time to admit that I actually *hate* Picasso... especially the "three year old" paintings?

 

Well....I hate Picasso for different reasons...as people who've read Everybody's Wounded might have noticed....

 

But yes, few of us are Picasso (whether we like the art or not) or Keats or Joyce... but we can aspire...

 

Guidelines are useful esp. in the beginning as we are learning our craft as writers, and we need to learn the craft so that we can realize the vision of what we want to say.

 

Actually, the guidelines are not unlike grammar rules, which in skilled hands are also guidelines... these are rules you break consciously and deliberately (like Joyce...) not because you don't know any better.

[Procyon]

Rules, guidelines, whatever. Generally it's about the skill in breaking them. Generally I agree that you should be doing it deliberately, but there are even exceptions to that. I'm not speaking specifically about these "guidelines", lol. But sometimes a new young, inexperienced writer can just...get it right, just with that kind of wide eyed freshness and go right to the heart of something magical... They do something magical because they don't know there are rules (or guidelines) and just...do it. But it is very very very rare, of course.

 

Like...Picasso... looking at a picture painted by a three year old and saying "It's taken me all my life to learn to paint like that..."

 

This is very interesting, because I don't even think it's that unusual -- you come across these pieces of writing (often from young writers but not always) which are like rough gems, where you get a glimpse of potential genius-hood -- or magic -- and which give you a satisfying reading experience even in their imperfect state.

 

Only, then the writer either gives up writing, or finds out about literary rules (which is necessary and unavoidable) and tries to conform, and it may take a very long time until she or he manages to get back to that state of liberation again. Or it may not happen at all.

[Richard Lyon]

There seem to be two issues here. Whether certain types of writing are more valuable than others and whether there are rules that should be followed for particular types of writing.

 

It seems to me that particular genres do have their on inherent requirements. A mystery writer who starts out with the butler did it and works backward is probably missing the point. The basic purpose of mystery stories is to build suspense. As a genre they have their established cliches and the hardcore fans adore them. Is Agatha Christie equal to Virginia Woolf? Personally I don't think so, but if you put that in terms of Dorothy Sayers I might have to think about it .

 

Porn writing certainly has its requirements. Porn that wanders off into a fashion critique at the height of passion is probably also missing the point.

 

One question that occurs to me is whether there is something called gay writing that constitutes a specific genre with its own rules. I really don't think so. There's gay mystery stories. There's gay porn. There are gay romances. There are gay stories that pursue the objectives of "serious" literature. The only thing that they have in common is that they have characters who are gay and are probably written by authors who are gay or lesbian. That doesn't provide much basis for a common set of rules. There seems to be a tendency for some people who write gay stories to think that their gay stories are what all gay stories should be like.

 

None of this is intended to suggest that no one can or should attempt to evaluate and criticize writing. Intuitively we pretty much know that some things "work" and others don't. To me the starting point is to try to figure out what a particular author is attempting to accomplish and to evaluate whether they achieved it. A really good writer can take something that is improbable and unrealistic and convince readers that it is real and believable.