BendtedWreath Posted December 26, 2024 Posted December 26, 2024 Actions speak louder than words! ...but do they always? I find myself in a challenging situation in which Character 2 barely believes Character 1's actions are sincere since they were perceived incorrectly, and he believes the words coming out of Character 1's mouth even less! My goal is to show Character 2 changing his mind gradually. But that had me wondering everyone else's methods to help showcase another character while the main character is still very much the key tool through which we are measuring everything that happens. Other than their actions and their words, how would YOU show what another character is thinking while being limited to the main character's overall point of view? 2 2
Popular Post kbois Posted December 26, 2024 Popular Post Posted December 26, 2024 You can do this a couple of ways: 1- you can italicize the thoughts of the character X so the readers know what he's thinking without relying on 'telling'. At the same time you have character Y pondering X's thoughts and gradually changing his perception. 2- you can have character Y hypothesize as to what he/she thinks the other person is thinking. This leaves room for further speculation on the main character's part and an internal dialogue showing the change if heart. Let me know if you need more help or if you want to bounce some ideas around. 1 7
BendtedWreath Posted December 26, 2024 Author Posted December 26, 2024 (edited) I didn't think about pointing out Character 1's thoughts or thought progression/mental perceptions. 🤔And speculating about how we think others view us is something we subconsciously do every day. I just need to try to "transfer" that way of thinking onto the written page. Thank you so much for your input! Now, if I can only figure out what "gradual" in "Character 2's mental language" looks like in my head. 😂 Edited December 26, 2024 by BendtedWreath 3
Krista Posted December 26, 2024 Posted December 26, 2024 1 hour ago, BendtedWreath said: Actions speak louder than words! ...but do they always? I find myself in a challenging situation in which Character 2 barely believes Character 1's actions are sincere since they were perceived incorrectly, and he believes the words coming out of Character 1's mouth even less! My goal is to show Character 2 changing his mind gradually. But that had me wondering everyone else's methods to help showcase another character while the main character is still very much the key tool through which we are measuring everything that happens. Other than their actions and their words, how would YOU show what another character is thinking while being limited to the main character's overall point of view? Are you writing in first person perspective? 4
Thirdly Posted December 26, 2024 Posted December 26, 2024 Though it also feels like cheating, one thing that came to mind other than what @kbois wonderfully suggested, are handwritten notes. 👀 I was a teenager once and I remember playing messenger passing notes from girls to boys, or girls to other girls, and so on. When writing from one friend to another (or anything intimate between couples), so much can be read between the lines. It's why there is a collective panic whenever someone intercepts those notes, especially anything incriminating like calling an ex a fusion of a magical girl and their scent of choice "Sailor Spice." 1 3
BendtedWreath Posted December 26, 2024 Author Posted December 26, 2024 4 minutes ago, Krista said: Are you writing in first person perspective? I believe it's third person limited. 1
BendtedWreath Posted December 26, 2024 Author Posted December 26, 2024 1 minute ago, Thirdly said: Though it also feels like cheating, one thing that came to mind other than what @kbois wonderfully suggested, are handwritten notes. 👀 I was a teenager once and I remember playing messenger passing notes from girls to boys, or girls to other girls, and so on. When writing from one friend to another (or anything intimate between couples), so much can be read between the lines. It's why there is a collective panic whenever someone intercepts those notes, especially anything incriminating like calling an ex a fusion of a magical girl and their scent of choice "Sailor Spice." Sailor Spice doesn't sound like much of an insult to me. 🤣 But I've completely forgotten about handwritten communication (or texting and emailing). Thanks for your input! 2 2
Talo Segura Posted December 27, 2024 Posted December 27, 2024 12 hours ago, BendtedWreath said: how would YOU show what another character is thinking while being limited to the main character's overall point of view? Third person limited is just what it says with the label, it allows a little more freedom with the principal character because you are using he and they, rather than I, but nevertheless the reader is following only this main character's thoughts and inner feelings. The main character may speculate about a secondary character's inner thoughts, but he doesn't know what another person is really thinking. You cannot put the reader inside another character's head, only with third person omniscient where the reader sees all can you do this. 3
drown Posted December 27, 2024 Posted December 27, 2024 12 hours ago, BendtedWreath said: Other than their actions and their words, how would YOU show what another character is thinking while being limited to the main character's overall point of view? You are not necessarily limited to just one character's POV though. You can … head hop to another one. This is extremely dangerous territory. But without a lot of finesse, it often comes off heavy-handed. If a story constantly swaps POVs, I will stop reading. All suggestions above are good though. I like limited writing POVs, makes it more interesting to deal with such things. Focus on what your main character can see, smell, taste, hear, touch. Have them question their senses, for the reader to really get into the POV's head. Did he see that expression? It was there, wasn't it? I'm sure it was, oh god, this man was so hard to read! Exhausting. He wished Luke would just come out with it and say what's on his mind. But oh no, we had to sit here and ponder. 1 3
BendtedWreath Posted December 27, 2024 Author Posted December 27, 2024 5 hours ago, drown said: Did he see that expression? It was there, wasn't it? I'm sure it was, oh god, this man was so hard to read! Exhausting. He wished Luke would just come out with it and say what's on his mind. But oh no, we had to sit here and ponder. The refusal to head hop is what made it challenging. Thanks so much for your input and for the example! 2 1
Popular Post Headstall Posted December 27, 2024 Popular Post Posted December 27, 2024 (edited) Dialogue and second character's actions, reactions, pauses, tics, facial expressions and the like... but definitely through dialogue for me. Just a quick example... Character 2: "Are you sure about that?" POV: "I was... ah, you don't think so?" Character 2: "Sure, sure, if that's your take." Leon nodded and smiled, but Ryan knew him well and saw right through it. POV: "Okay, well, I haven't made up my mind yet, so--" Character 2: "You do you, man," Leon said in a rush as he dropped his gaze. POV: A sigh quietly slid from Ryan's mouth. It was clear his friend thought him crazy for even considering taking Thomas back. Was he angry? It irked him to think he was, so he challenged his poorly concealed attitude. "Why do you hate him so damn much?" Character 2: Leon's eyebrows rose, and he looked sheepish, but stubborn too, and yeah, at the least, miffed about something. "I don't... hate him exactly, and it's none of my business anyway... it's not my life." POV: Yeah, he sounded defensive now, and that never went well. Ryan cooled his jets, not wanting to poke and prod. Character 2: "Listen, I gotta go. I promised my mother I would...." His voice trailed off as he turned away and started walking up his street. POV: Ryan sighed again, louder this time. Leon was definitely lying--he wasn't fine with anything--and he was going to do what he always did when things got uncomfortable. No doubt he wouldn't see him for a week. He watched his friend's hunched shoulders and hurried gait for a minute, but he never turned around once, like he would have done any other time. Annoyed at how their talk had played out, he strode away in the other direction. He was confused, but something about Leon's demeanor niggled at him. Just an over the top example to illustrate how much a character can reveal himself. Hope this helps. Cheers! Edited December 27, 2024 by Headstall 2 4
Thirdly Posted December 27, 2024 Posted December 27, 2024 (edited) Over the top my butt, @Headstall! Edited December 27, 2024 by Thirdly 2 2
LJCC Posted December 27, 2024 Posted December 27, 2024 (edited) Like with your question: Other than their actions and their words, how would YOU show what another character is thinking while being limited to the main character's overall point of view? By describing things, really. Context and subcontext are the keys to every situation. Subcontext is probably the most important part of storytelling you'd have to insert in everything you write. Without it, its like eating a sugarless cereal. The story would taste very bland. In-your-face writing is literally the opposite of fiction writing. It's like reading a news report. So to successfully hide whatever intention you have with your characters, you have to hide them in a subcontext that the readers will subtly understand. Some writers will directly hint at what the subcontext is (like in this sample), and some will hide it in their graves. This is a very short prompt I made to, hopefully (if it makes sense), give my answer to your question: SETTING: Context: William is showing his apparent 'fiance' to the guy he slept with last night. A fellow spy. Subcontext: Roger is doubting himself if William truly feels nothing about what they've shared together the night before. The CIA agent feels there's something more. He's also doubting if the fiance is his real fiance. “Well, this is my fiancé,” Damien said, smug as a cat dragging in a half-dead mouse. He turned to face Roger, his expression all polish and ice, heartless, soulless. Roger felt the contrarian demons stir inside him, their claws in his guts, pulling him toward what he shouldn’t feel, shouldn’t want—but did, and did deeply. He knew his feelings for Damien, and he knew Damien's duty. Knew, too, what he himself could give, which was less than nothing when the CIA had its iron hand on his leash. And yet, last night—goddamn it—last night had happened. He had let passion, real passion, take the wheel, knowing full well that today Damien would be boarding a plane back to London, back to MI6. Back to the interrogators, with their sharp questions and sharper eyes. If he wasn’t pitch-perfect, it would be his fault because he hadn’t said no to William last night Romantic, cold-effacing, heartless Brits. That’s what Damien was—wasn’t he? Or was he just a full-frontal asshole of an American to expect something? He wanted some version of romance, sure, but they were both intelligence officers. No room for distractions. No room for...this. And yet. Damien looked at him now, the look of someone who had already filed everything away in a locked box. Roger saw it. He saw the purple shadows pooling around his shoulders like bruises. Whatever connection they’d shared last night was gone, replaced by duty and steel. And now, as if the whole moment weren’t absurd enough, Damien was introducing him to this spineless twig of a man—this toothpick masquerading as a person—who was, apparently, William’s fiancé. The words floated, as pompous and self-satisfied as Damien’s tone. Roger swallowed down everything he couldn’t say and told himself, not for the first time, that what happened last night was for nothing. Or was it really for nothing? Because for certain, he'll be thinking of William till the end of his days. Fuck it, he thought. I have to stop his flight, was his convincing tirade in his mind. I'll blow up the plane if I have to. Edited December 27, 2024 by LJCC 1 1 1
BendtedWreath Posted December 27, 2024 Author Posted December 27, 2024 @Headstall and @LJCC I have been taking notes this entire time. These examples help tremendously. I am hoping other beginner writers are also paying attention. Nuances and subtext are still difficult for me to portray well. Many, many thanks to everyone!! 2 3
ChromedOutCortex Posted January 30 Posted January 30 This is definitely good information - I've tried different things a few times, such as identifying who is saying what was was mentioned by @Headstall in an earlier post, or using italics. I am also trying what @LJCC said... I know I've failed a few times, because readers have told me that they couldn't make out who was saying what. Hopefully in the new story I'm working on, I can nail it. 🤞 3
BendtedWreath Posted January 30 Author Posted January 30 1 hour ago, ChromedOutCortex said: I know I've failed a few times, because readers have told me that they couldn't make out who was saying what. Hopefully in the new story I'm working on, I can nail it. 🤞 If it makes you feel any better, I still have to deep dive into sentence structure and paragraphs because I apparently forgot all of my grade school grammar. 🤣 2 2
Headstall Posted January 30 Posted January 30 1 hour ago, ChromedOutCortex said: This is definitely good information - I've tried different things a few times, such as identifying who is saying what was was mentioned by @Headstall in an earlier post, or using italics. I am also trying what @LJCC said... I know I've failed a few times, because readers have told me that they couldn't make out who was saying what. Hopefully in the new story I'm working on, I can nail it. 🤞 If I may say... I was not suggesting lines of dialogue should be labeled. Sorry if that was what you thought. It was only to indicate that second character for the point I was making. Labeling would be disruptive and a definite no no. Dialogue should have a flow to it, and for this point, I am talking visually. In essence, each new paragraph should be a different speaker(stick to that--unless a speaker has a long speech and it needs to be broken up--even so, you can put in an action/reaction line from the other character to keep to that rhythm) and that should help the reader, and while overusing names is another no no in my opinion, maybe every once in a while it is okay especially if there are more than two people. In a group, speakers would use names to get their attention, and that will also assist readers. I sometimes write dialogue with no addressed names for a scene, but that is usually well into a story. If you notice, there are no addressed names in the example given... it's not necessary, and usually not how people talk, though that does depend on the character and the emotion in the scene. An example there is "John! Are you kidding me?" In my previous example, names are used in the observations as a means of helping the reader and assisting the character development within the scene. Hope this helps, and I really hope I didn't confuse things for you. Cheers! Gary 2 2
ChromedOutCortex Posted January 31 Posted January 31 @Headstall - Thanks, my bad for misunderstanding. 🙂 I really need to go back to the story and revisit what I did! LOL! 2 2
ChromedOutCortex Posted January 31 Posted January 31 Scene - Dad is out with his son. Parents are divorced, dad has his kid every other weekend so they are not close but both are trying. If you were to read this could you tell that it's the son thinking this? The story is being told from the dad's POV. Just before this, dad is asking son some questions while they wait to order dinner. Why does he keep asking me about school? It’s not like he even knows what’s going on. Maybe he’s trying, but it’s been too long. We’re not super close, not like we used to be. I stare at the screen, not really paying attention to anything. I scroll through, mostly to avoid the silence between us. He’s trying too hard, I think. And part of me feels bad about it. But another part? I just don’t know how to be around him anymore. Not after everything. He’s still asking me questions, but I keep my answers short. What’s the point? It’s awkward every time we talk. I know he’s waiting for me to say something, to open up, but… what’s the point? Mom tells me to give him a chance, that he’s trying to make things right. But how can I just forget? How can I act like nothing happened? 4
BendtedWreath Posted January 31 Author Posted January 31 26 minutes ago, ChromedOutCortex said: The story is being told from the dad's POV. Just before this, dad is asking son some questions while they wait to order dinner. I would be careful when writing mixed POVs. The only ones I've seen that work well enough are full chapters of just that one person's POV. 3
LJCC Posted January 31 Posted January 31 59 minutes ago, ChromedOutCortex said: Scene - Dad is out with his son. Parents are divorced, dad has his kid every other weekend so they are not close but both are trying. If you were to read this could you tell that it's the son thinking this? The story is being told from the dad's POV. Just before this, dad is asking son some questions while they wait to order dinner. Why does he keep asking me about school? It’s not like he even knows what’s going on. Maybe he’s trying, but it’s been too long. We’re not super close, not like we used to be. I stare at the screen, not really paying attention to anything. I scroll through, mostly to avoid the silence between us. He’s trying too hard, I think. And part of me feels bad about it. But another part? I just don’t know how to be around him anymore. Not after everything. He’s still asking me questions, but I keep my answers short. What’s the point? It’s awkward every time we talk. I know he’s waiting for me to say something, to open up, but… what’s the point? Mom tells me to give him a chance, that he’s trying to make things right. But how can I just forget? How can I act like nothing happened? It's 1st person POV. Anything the narrator says is formed from the narrator's opinions. That's why 1st person POV is inherently unreliable because you're assuming that the narrator doesn't know everything. Unless the narrator explicitly states like, "[Son] said he didn't like his weekends with me," or indirectly, "His [Mother] pointed out how I kept buying the wrong cereal brand. Was I such a shitty father that my own son kept tattling on me?" As for this: I know he’s waiting for me to say something, to open up, How did the narrator know what the son was thinking? I don't know the son's age, but children tend to not be reliable conversationalists with their emotions since they are, after all, children. Unless the son spoke to the father outright, the reader would assume whatever the father was saying was directly coming from his own insights. If it went like this: I know he told his mother that I'm barely saying anything to open up, but… what’s the point? If it's a third-person POV, it could go like this: "[Son] hinted, through a series of eye gestures, eye rolls, and dismissive nods, when his mother had asked how his father was, that the entire weekend was inexplicably fraught with silence, a shrug, and his father excusing himself to lollygag at his beloved shed. [Son's] weekend was met with abject displeasure that his father still remembers the shit he did, one shitty thing at a time—as expected. And that got the teen frowning at his mother. Stealing your father's credit card to purchase concert tickets will surely elicit any parent's greatest arsenal, the silent treatment." 2 2
Headstall Posted January 31 Posted January 31 1 hour ago, ChromedOutCortex said: Scene - Dad is out with his son. Parents are divorced, dad has his kid every other weekend so they are not close but both are trying. If you were to read this could you tell that it's the son thinking this? The story is being told from the dad's POV. Just before this, dad is asking son some questions while they wait to order dinner. Why does he keep asking me about school? It’s not like he even knows what’s going on. Maybe he’s trying, but it’s been too long. We’re not super close, not like we used to be. I stare at the screen, not really paying attention to anything. I scroll through, mostly to avoid the silence between us. He’s trying too hard, I think. And part of me feels bad about it. But another part? I just don’t know how to be around him anymore. Not after everything. He’s still asking me questions, but I keep my answers short. What’s the point? It’s awkward every time we talk. I know he’s waiting for me to say something, to open up, but… what’s the point? Mom tells me to give him a chance, that he’s trying to make things right. But how can I just forget? How can I act like nothing happened? I get this is the son, but yeah, this doesn't work for the Dad's POV. We shouldn't be privy to the son's thoughts. We should only witness what the dad observes and thinks, and he'd have to be a mind reader for this. This would only work if it was the son's POV. So, this is what I mean... He's staring at that bloody screen, paying attention to anything but me, and even worse, I can tell he's angry. Maybe I should just call it a day, but I want us to be like we were, able to laugh and joke. I even miss his teasing about how uncool I am. Damn! "Darren? Do you want to go out somewhere? Maybe get some poutine from the chip truck? You still like that, right?" "Yeah, no thanks, Dad... I'm not hungry," he answered in a mumble. "Well what then?" I waited for an answer, but all I got was a scowl. His mom had been wrong about him being ready. He was still closed up and resentful about what I did. I sighed, and he jerked at the sound, but his eyes stayed on his phone. I sighed again, this time silently. Maybe I was losing this one, but I wasn't going to give up. We had to figure this out. He's my son. I believe this gives all the info you had in the son's thoughts, but fits the Dad's first person POV. We can see the dad's frustration, and the reticence of the son. Just a simple example. Hope it helps. Just an aside, there is a little more freedom if you wrote this in third person limited. Just saying.... Cheers! 1 3
BendtedWreath Posted January 31 Author Posted January 31 @LJCC and @Headstall, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to provide help and examples. I know it's @ChromedOutCortex you're helping out right now, but I am also learning and am appreciative of any and all information. 1 3
ChromedOutCortex Posted February 1 Posted February 1 (edited) Seriously, @LJCC and @Headstall and @BendtedWreath - thank you for your feedback! @BendtedWreath - you are right, I also find when I try to "mix" different POVs in the same chapter, even I get confused and I'm writing the damn thing! It is much easier moving those thoughts into their own chapter, if it makes sense and there is enough to put it into its own chapter. I think I understand - I'm mostly self taught (no real writing classes) and I suppose I still have a lot to learn and more to read. So if I understand correctly, since I'm writing the story from dad's POV he would have no access to his sons' thoughts. Like IRL, I wouldn't know what my kid is thinking when I say something, I can only surmise what he might be thinking based on his actions (or inaction), body language (stiffness/rigid) or facial expressions (eye roll, smirk, side eye). So rather than Alex thinking something, I would need to write it as what dad thinks is going on based on what he sees/hears/perceives. So something like this would make more sense, and not confuse the reader as this would be dad assuming what is going on in son's mind based on what he observes: I watch Alex as he scrolls through his phone, not really looking at me. I keep trying to make conversation, asking him about school, swimming, anything to break the silence, but all I get are short answers. It's like talking to a brick wall. It’s been this way for a while now—distant, cold. He wasn’t always like this. There was a time when he’d tell me everything, when we’d talk for hours about everything and nothing. Now? Now, I’m lucky if I can get more than a one-word reply. It stings, but I don’t know how to fix it. Maybe it’s just too much for him. Maybe he doesn’t know how to be around me anymore. I can see it in his eyes, the way he avoids mine. I try again, this time about swimming, something I thought might get him talking. But it’s the same. “Yeah, it’s good,” he says, looking out the window. There’s no real enthusiasm, no spark. I don’t know what to do anymore. I can’t help but wonder if I’m doing something wrong. I try to tell myself it’s just the way things are now, that he’s adjusting, that it’ll get better with time. But there’s a part of me that knows, deep down, that things aren’t the same. They can’t be. Not after everything that happened. The gap between us feels like it’s widening every time I try to close it. Every time I push, he pulls away. I see it, I feel it. And I don’t know how to fix something that feels this broken. Gonna spend more time before I push this story out, but from what little I've read (and it is 4:00am now LOL) it feels like third person limited is a little "colder" (perhaps that's not the right word) than first person. Lots to think about! Edited February 1 by ChromedOutCortex 3 1
Headstall Posted February 1 Posted February 1 (edited) 7 hours ago, ChromedOutCortex said: but from what little I've read (and it is 4:00am now LOL) it feels like third person limited is a little "colder" (perhaps that's not the right word) than first person. It's really a matter of preference and what you are comfortable with. I write in both(though third person limited is my preferred), and I started out writing omniscient(multiple points of view-often called head hopping), which can be done well, but I've come to think of it as cheating or even lazy. Just my opinion, but you can do the same thing with a single POV, it just requires a little more thought. I sometimes switch POVs within a story(usually only one chapter if I think it's needed), but it would hold for the entire chapter. Third person limited is certainly not colder... remember it still is told from one POV, but there is an observer element to it which can give you more freedom. I find first has more restrictions than third when it comes to storytelling, but first can have a greater impact for some stories I want to tell. We all must tell our stories in our own way. Cheers and good luck in your writing! G Edited February 1 by Headstall 2 2
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