C James Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 I''ve been trying to research the chemical reactions involved from chlorine, Ammonia, and sulfur. What I need to get, per the plot, is Chlorine gas. I might need to put the story on hiatus until I can figure this out, because it's a critical aspect. The reaction I've found at a BBC science site is for Chlorine bleach and Ammonia. 2(parts)NaOCl + 2NH3 --> 2NaONH3 + Cl2. The CL2 is chlorine gas. However, I've bungled the plot: the General mentions Chlorine, Sulfur, and Ammonia. The problem is, Chlorine, by itself, is most commonly Cl2.. Chlorine gas. I need a liquid or solid form. I've also seen statements (here and from searches) that bleach plus ammonia make Chloramine gas, not Chlorine gas. I need Chlorine gas. From looking at the formula, it appears that you need a little alkalinity to free up the nitrogen needed to make Chloramine rather than chlorine gas. Ammonia and Bleach are both alkaline, so I can sure see the reasoning for saying it would produce mainly Chloramine. In an acid environment, Ammonia and Bleach apparently do produce Chlorine gas. So, one option is that the sulfur be sulfuric acid. I think... Anyway, here's a link to the BBC site I was basing my chemistry on. The problem is that I am not good at chemistry. I'm kind of lost here. Another source says this; here are several ways household ammonia and bleach can react. All of them are dangerous. Reaction type 1: Ammonia directly reacts with bleach to form hydrazine (N2H4, which, in addition to being extremely poisonous, can burn even in the absence of air! It explodes on contact with rust! 2NH3 + NaOCl -----> N2H4 + NaCl + H2O Reaction type 2: Bleach hydrolyzes into sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid, which in turn decompose into chlorine gas and nascent oxygen (both poisonous). The chlorine gas in turn reacts with the ammonia to form chloramines, also very poisonous. NaOCl -----> NaOH + HOCl HOCl ---> HCl + O (monatomic oxygen) NaOCl + 2HCl -----> Cl2 + NaCl + H2O 2NH3 + Cl2 -------> 2NH2Cl (chloramine) 4NH3 + 2Cl2 ------> 2NHCl2 (dichloramine) 6NH3 + 3Cl2 ------> NCl3 (trichloramine or nitrogen trichloride) So, it appears from that the bleach plus ammonia form both Chlorine gas AND Chloramine! Okay, at the moment, I'm thinking that one of the chemicals the General needs is chlorine in the form of Sodium hypochlorite (NaClO). Sodium Hypochlorate is what's in bleach, in about a 5% solution (the rest is water). The other two chemicals I'm thinking he'll be mixing are Sulfuric Acid (from batteries) and Ammonia. That, if I'm reading all this right, should give him his Chlorine gas plus a few other nasties (smaller amounts of Hydrazine and Nitrogen Trichloride). (I don't mind if there is some Chloramine, but there must be some Chlorine gas, and preferably a trace of hydrazine too). Did I get that right? Or have I (quite likely) bungled the chemistry? Thanks!!! CJ
Site Administrator Graeme Posted January 2, 2009 Site Administrator Posted January 2, 2009 According to the wikipedia entry for Sodium Hydrochlorite: Mixing bleach with some household cleaners can be hazardous. For example, mixing an acid cleaner with sodium hypochlorite bleach generates chlorine gas. Mixing with ammonia solutions (including urine) produces chloramines. Both chlorine gas and chloramine gas are toxic. See also this article
C James Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 According to the wikipedia entry for Sodium Hydrochlorite: See also this article Thanks Graeme!!! So far, the preponderances of evidence seems to suggest that Chlorine gas would result, especially with a little sulfuric acid added to the ammonia-chlorine mix. The trouble I'm having is due to other web-based sources, such as this in the New England Journal of Medicine claim a bleach plus ammonia reaction produces chloramine. Okay, more digging turned up this, from a chemical decontamination company. it appears that bleach plus amonia do produce chloramines, in three forms: These are (1) monochloramine, NH2Cl, (2) dichloramine, NHCl2, and (3) trichloramine, or nitrogen trichloride, NCl3. The nitrogen trichloride is very unstable, and breaks down to release chlorine gas. So, I think the initial reaction produces the chloramines, but then chlorine gas is rapidly produced by the subseqent breakdown of the nitrogen trichloride. The nitrogen trichloride ratio can be increased by adding more bleach than ammonia. OK, thank you! This sounds right to me. If anyone has any further info, PLEASE weigh in!! Thanks!! CJ
BlueSoxSWJ Posted January 6, 2009 Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Chlorine (IPA: /ˈklɔriːn/, from the Greek word 'χλωρ Edited January 6, 2009 by BlueSoxSWJ
MikeL Posted January 6, 2009 Posted January 6, 2009 Cliff, one of my very distant cousins thinks he has found the answer to your chemistry question. There is one problem: the answer is written on the face of a cliff about 200 feet below the top of the 1,000 foot precipice. Happy landings!
C James Posted January 7, 2009 Author Posted January 7, 2009 In terms of methods of obtaining Cl2 gas: or see Chlorine Production at wikipedia for more details Finally, for realistic portrayals AFTER the Cl2 is made: Chlorine gas also reacts with water (i.e. sweat) to produce HCl (Hydrochloric Acid), so contact exposure even without breathing it is painful. [i've spilled concentrated HCl on myself before. It hurts. It was the one time I ever used a string of profanities in front of a teacher, let alone didn't get into any sort of trouble for it.] Edit: also note that Citric Acid, which is commonly found in fruits (random example: lemons), is acidic, and in enough concentration could produce an acidic environment for any chemical reactions that happen to be occurring. Thanks!! And yep, I can surely envision a string of profanities resulting from skin contact with acid. I've had that "pleasure". In my case, sulfuric acid, thanks to a car battery I was removing having unseen damage. Didn't help that it hit a spot where I already had an open cut. My language was indeed-- colorful. Cliff, one of my very distant cousins thinks he has found the answer to your chemistry question. There is one problem: the answer is written on the face of a cliff about 200 feet below the top of the 1,000 foot precipice. Happy landings! Hrmmm! But, Your Frogishness, does this mean that you are trying to get me to jump off a cliff?? Hrmmm, again, we have you talking about your favorite subject... cliffs. I think that you and the cliff-chirping-frog might be more closely related than you admit.
rknapp Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Chemistry? WHERE?! RUN FOR YOU LIVES!!!!! *is a Physics major who is very happy Chem ended the summer after his 1st year hehe*
LongGone Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Chemistry? WHERE?! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!! I hereby second the motion. WAIT FOR ME!!!! I've only been here a few days, but I would like to nominate this as the MOST BORING THREAD EVER. Is that presumptuous of me?
MikeL Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Chemistry? WHERE?! RUN FOR YOU LIVES!!!!! *is a Physics major who is very happy Chem ended the summer after his 1st year hehe* College Chemistry is the reason I became an accountant.
EMoe57 Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 I hereby second the motion. WAIT FOR ME!!!! I've only been here a few days, but I would like to nominate this as the MOST BORING THREAD EVER. Is that presumptuous of me? Ah but the story this thread feeds is anything but! All hail King CJ
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