Jamie de Valen

My comment about the swearing wasn't directed at your particular character - it's a broader opinion. I understand that swearing or use of certain phrases or expressions can be a part a character's persona, but I still think it can be over used. If every other word is a curse or the same expression it does lose it's impact... even if it's not a curse. I find it interesting that most writers (myself included) are absolutely paranoid about using the same word twice or, heaven forbid, three times in a paragraph or on the same, page yet something like an expression we'll use and reuse and reuse into infinity. I think the same principle applies. Spices are great in cooking... I couldn't live without them, but I don't open up my cupboard and pore 1/2 a bottle of every type of spice I have into a dish... suddenly something good becomes something inedible. We all have to come to what we feel is right for us and our characters. That is, of course, the writer's prerogative. I think writers should write... and even make mistakes. It's how we learn... it's how we get better. That's why experimenting is always good. Not every experiment is a success, but every one CAN be a learning experience if we choose to look them that way.

Nephy, It’s nice that you’ve begun this discussion thread. I’ve seen the issue of 1st vs. 3rd person discussed at other times and in other forums on various sites, including GA, but it never hurts to discuss it again. The topic can be especially interesting for aspiring writers who are wondering which voice is the best for them to write it. When a discussion like this is joined, one usually hears a lot of different (and sometimes differing) opinions. I’ve seen, read and even discussed in chat or in person this topic with others. I’ve known some people to claim that 1st person is easy to write, and that’s why many first time writers choose it. Others argue the exact opposite and reply that a gifted writer can make a 1st person account truly sing, and that 1st person can be quite difficult to write in. Third person always gets the nod for giving the reader the broadest perspective, but I think all of the above can be a bit simplistic. A writer should firstly choose the style they think feels best to them. A short story is one thing, but if it’s a long work the writer should remember that they will be living, and writing in that voice for some time, so they should choose a voice they like and feel comfortable using. A talented writer should be able to handle either 1stor 3rd voice without any problem, although they may have a personal preference…which is what it sometimes comes down to – a personal preference. If a story is mostly all dialogue, then I feel that first person can get rather tedious, because we only know what’s happing through the eyes of narrator and what he sees and hears in relation to his environment and his dialogue with others. But if the story is a good blend of dialogue, detail, description and emotion, for example, most readers will glean a lot from it and in fact have a broad perspective even though it is written in the 1stperson. Detail, and description are some of the important keys no matter what voice you write in. Good descriptions fan the flame of the reader’s imagination. Emotion added in the right proportion at the right time becomes the spice of the story. Added to some interesting and well-written dialogue, a story really comes to life. For example, I think works heavy in dialogue and light on description that use (and over use) the f-word miss out on opportunities to take the strong, harsh and often raw emotion of such a curse, and channel it into something that will grab the reader by the throat. The cheap, quick and easy solution is like hammer blow to the reader’s head, but the shock factor quickly lessens (especially if the word over used) and the emotional punch the writer intended rapidly fades. A more crafted piece of dialogue will not only make a stronger statement, but also will speak directly to and linger far longer with the reader. 1st or 3rd person? A talented writer should be able to handle both, a fact that proves their competency as a writer. It takes time, to craft a good story in either voice… a truth that some amateur writers often don’t like to hear, especially if they’re keen to quickly churning out half-baked chapters to garner the accolades of their readers. A current example of a truly talented use of 1stperson is Emulated’s current work, Kieran now appearing on his blog. Although written in the 1st person it is truly a lovely story that is a well-crafted blend of dialogue, description, detail and emotion. Whether it’s a genre you like or not, an objective and well-read reader will have to agree that it is indeed nicely done and superbly written. And therein lies the real issue of writing... be it 1stor 3rd person; romance, comedy, sci/fi or horror; gay, bi or standard straight fiction it’s the talent of the writer that’s the key to success in both short and long term success in relation to any piece of fiction.

Now I get to return the favor! Happy Birthday

Thank you all for the kind birthday greetings.

Dear Emulated, It's a pity for you that all the best people are born in November, so unfortunately you'll have to settle for second place. Although you truly are the worst brat I've even had to deal with, I wish you the happiest of birthdays. I hope your 20th year is one of fun, enjoyment, and discovery and that some of the wishes most precious to you come true. Each story you write gets better and better and I can't wait to see what you produce in your 20th year! You are not only an up and coming writer, but one that goes beyond the designation of Promising. You've already delivered on some of that promise... keep up the good work, and I wish you many many more readers, because those who don't know you are certainly missing out. I'm certainly a BIG fan. If you'll allow me to offer some heart felt personal advice as a disclaimer: As you circumnavigate the crosscurrents of your life, just like Eden's first man, always remember to fill-up with happiness. Be careful of strangers in libraries unless their name is Artur. In the day-to-day grind don't let the Sun King eclipse your style, for you have a beautiful light of your own. Try to avoid all the robbers and cheaters who aggregate together like the words of a Pauline epistle, they'll only serve to make your crazy. If you need strength and sustenance remember Euston Station. It's far better than any other forum, because a full foul goes a long way to inner happiness, especially when you go in the back to wash your hands. And don't forget not rule out frequent trips to Portugal for extra fun. Take my advice: from time to time look deeply into the mirror, you might remember to eat a proper breakfast, especially if Coco Pops are on the menu. And please what every you do never ever forget to say please and THANK YOU... HAPPY BIRTHDAY EM!

Do I get a ride when I visit the states in August? It would be a lot like Renaud flying Jamie on the hov to the Canon of the Angels...

Dear NightOwl, I often get people wanting me to write faster, but they often don't understand the circumstances of my life (or that of any other person posting a live story on line) Please don't feel bad over the criticism and don't let it get you down. People get frustrated because they want to read more, but they should also understand that we all have lives and things intrude. When a reader starts reading an unfinished story online they take the chance that they might have to wait. They also take the chance it might never be finished. And sometimes that's out of the hands of the writer. People often forget that it's a free service. Now days so much is free online we take a lot for granted. There is a simple solution for the reader: don't read a work until it is finished. You can't be badgering the writer of the story when you don't know the circumstances. I have loved Indiana Summer and have enjoyed every chapter you have posted. If right now circumstances intervene to make that difficult or impossible so be it. Your not doing it out out of spite or for some malicious reason. You have my continued support and I will continue to read your work... if that means I must wait a week, a month or a year then so be it. I always have the choice to wait until the work is finished or not read any work that isn't finished. Please take heart and don't let a negative comment wound you. Your a talented writer and I suspect a sweet and nice person, who doesn't deserve being stomped on. There a lots of people who love what you're doing and support it... and will continue to. Allow me to place my name in the column of those who do and will continue to. peace Jamie

You may be right about where some of this thread belongs... I agree. Although at this point I've said my piece. I personally don't have anything more to add. It can be moved to where ever.

In the process of getting the PhD in Linguistics I had to think long and hard about logic, language and it's structure and development.Then when I did the post-doc in Applied Linguistics I had to inject theory into the world of everyday reality dealing with living language. As you well know, in the EU we have quite a few languages and I'm constantly working with my translators on many a thorny issue in translation and more importantly the interpretation of that translation. Legislation made in a world where many languages is a reality, is more than a challenge it's critical to cohesive government. I also grapple with these issues in the university classroom with the students in my seminar group in what sometimes can seem a polyglot's nightmare. The question of defining something can be critical to many endeavors from the geo-political to the medical and ethical (pro-choice vspro-abortion, pro-life, vs anti-abortion). Even in my own life if I talk about being gay, the issue of being an openly gay man living in the modern developed world is constantly being defined by language, both my own and others. Every time I publically assert my sexuality to my friends, colleagues or students I'm being judged, weighed and defined – much like the books we are talking about in this thread. In some cases I try to make that definition a self-definition, but society in general and often anti-gay society in particular doesn't always choose to agree with me. What are my choices? Sometimes… rather limited I think you would agree. Likewise the definition of literary genre's can be quite broad or narrow. Can there be left-handed novels, ADD novels, black novels, sailor novel as you interestingly ask? I would argue that it depends on how you want to define them. You could. It's certainly not farfetched nor does it fall out of the purview and the realm of dynamic and living language. Or even literary language. It may also depend on how the writer defines them; that is, if we care or even respect the writer's own opinion. It can also depends on how the target reading audience and even the general public defines them – possibly all in very different ways. Let's take Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita for example? How would we define it? When it first came out its subject titillated, and libraries that were courageous enough to put it on their shelves discovered an interesting phenomena… all the books that so quickly rushed off the shelf, rushed back even quicker. Curiously they had dirt and dog-eared edges on the first few pages… the rest remained unread. The public was disappointed that it wasn't what they thought it was. That Nabokov wrote it incorporating three languages: English, French, and Russian and then used jokes, puns word plays and double entendres in all three languages left most people clueless. It's listed in Time Magazine's 100 Best English-language Novels from 1923 to 2005 as one of the salient hundred of its time period. It's also fourth on the Modern Library's 1998 100 Best Novels of the 20th century. So they agree it's a novel… some even say modern novel.But could it also be called a romantic novel, pornographic novel, or pederasticnovel? Others have called it a tragicomedy (akin to modern TV docudrama's). Some scholars categorize it as an anti-totalitarian novel. Still others have claimed that it was a novel embodying Solipsism. Which one is it? Am I making my point? Sometimes it's easy to define a work in a certain genre... other times it may be much more difficult and lead to honest disagreement. We all know words are important… sometimes deadly important. There is a whole village here in Europe that was murdered in the 12th century because they spoke the wrong language. Their conquerors went around and asked them to say 3 words… if they replied with the wrong accent they were killed on the spot. In today's world if we are talking about writing a work within a specific genre, I think that argument also has to be examined from both a personal (the writer's POV) and a commercial (the publisher's POV). I can define my work however I choose, but if it gets tapped for publication, I think part of the argument is going to be decided by enterprise. The publisher will determine how they want to market the book. And of course the profit motive will be called into play. Harry Potter started off as a children's book… did it end that way? I question that, especially when Scholastic published an adult version with different (read less juvenile) cover art. Then of course there are the self-appointed censors that will chose to have it banned or not. And if I take your example of being the owner of a bookshop into consideration, I'm going to have to deal with you and thousands of other shop owners who may shelf my book in a part of the store I would vehemently disagree with. Some may even set it next to the pornography, just because my main character is gay… even though he never has graphic sex in the span of the work. And how am I going to police that one? By visiting every book shop in the world that carries my work? Hardly practical or even possible. I've even spoken to amateur writers who've posted their stories on sites like Nifty and had their work placed in a category that they as the writer disagreed with. Some writers will define their own work and will vehemently disagree with a categorization they feel is foisted on them. Others may not be as sensitive. As this thread started with the question of e-fiction and some of the comments as to gay fiction, then I feel that to conclude I would say that I do write gay-themed fiction. Just because it is not overtly pornographic (and I question the statement about needing 'good' porn) or it's not 'gay' enough for some people, doesn't make it any less important to me in what I feel is my contribution (small and insignificant though it be) to the genre. I feel strongly that there is room in the world of gay fiction for works that show us as we are, sans stereotypes and the constant angst, self-loathing or outright hatred that some feel need to populate the genre. I live a good life. I'm out and my gayness is a central part of who I am. But if I write about my own life and the live of the gay community around me it's certainly not going to be like some of the stories we are often exposed to. That there are still major issues in the gay community that need addressed is quite clear, but there is room for other voices and other ways of writing that can still be classified as gay literature and gay life in a positive light or one that shows characters acting in a normal every day way (what ever that is) can also be critically important. Just as important as those dealing with abuse or suicide. We can't put them on a balance and weigh one against the other. My two and ½ euro cents… And thank you also for you above and interesting response to my earlier question. Jamie De Valèn

So if I write a novel that features as my central character for example a gay character (like a gay police detective solving crimes) and possibly discuss some of his life, maybe even his love life or the relationship between him and his BF, but don't bring it into the bedroom or make the story 100% gay themed, I've NOT written a gay novel? What if the gay police detective is working on a serial killer murdering gay men or the investigation of gay bashing or sex crimes... does that qualify??

A million thanks to the BEST EDITOR I know... my very own: AJ And my two Beta Boys: Talonrider & Ricky I didn't receive the Best Non GA Story of 2009 Award on my own... you all made it happen... my sincere and heartfelt Merci Beaucoup, Mon Chers THE SCROLLS OF ICARIA We're small, but MIGHTY And thanks to all the behind the scenes folks here and at ALL the sites. Without you we couldn't do it

Ah... George... uhm... maybe we need rethink this one? http://www.flixya.com/photo/16118/Cheese_Grater_Slide_-_Dont_let_your_kids_slide_on_

To be a kid and left hung out to dry is the worst thing of all. You don't even know who you are yet let along how to cope with such an ADULT situation. People who do that kind of thing to a kid should (as my father used to say) be horse whipped It's an appropriate phrase in this case. But I've been reading your writings... and your rants and all your other stuff for many years now James and your a good man... that I know as a fact. Your heart's in the right place... that's the most important. Like most of us you've been beat, kicked, and punched... and in your case, I know that's not just a metaphor. You've struggled with lots of stuff, but your still standing... and by damn that's something that they can never take away from you. Those who wished you ill, those who wished you down didn't win. Your still on your feet thumbing your nose at them... It always breaks my heart when I think of your case. I too was outed at an early age... 14, but the difference is I was outed with my BF and while I was ready to crumble... and I was... he made up his mind he wasn't going to let them win. I owe who I am today to him, he proved a love beyond compare... I miss him every day... But hey I'm always looking for a good Ghroum to watch my back... that's why I put them in charge of Charlie... don't forget your the BEST!

Adam, It's nice to hear that you were allowed to pull a story from Nifty without any problems. I think that is as it should be. It sounds like you made a polite and reasonable request and the request was honored. Unfortunately I know of others who didn't get that same treatment. Maybe they weren't as polite, or maybe they didn't state a reason, I can't begin to speculate. I do actually know of one other writer who did have a story pulled, but it took a great deal of effort and the writer was left with a less than satisfactory experience. And from the story I was told, the reason for his wanting it pulled was a reasonable one. But I like the inclusion of your POV, because not everything is black and white. I too believe in fairness and even handedness. To cut Nifty some slack, I'm sure it's an effort to get the stories up, if hundreds of people would then start requesting to have their stories pulled, then I could foresee an impossible situation. I also see no problem with Nifty or any other site rejecting a story. That is their prerogative, but I think that if they are going to accept a story they should accept it as is. If they choose not to accept a story, they should inform the author. They may or may not give a reason. But if the author chooses not to make changes a story site suggests, including changes to the title, then it should not be arbitrarily changed. The solution is simply for the site administrators/owners not to post the story in the first place and simply inform the author. I do know of instances on Nifty where a writer started a story and then after a time rewrote it from the beginning and started reposting. I don't know how that issue is handled on Nifty, but I know it has happened. I'd be curious to hear from someone with that experience. In Riley's case if they didn't like the title of his story all they would have had to do was inform him and give him the option of changing or not changing his title. If he chose not to change it, they simply could have informed him they wouldn't be posting it. I can imagine his dismay when he sent in a story and suddenly saw the title changed without his being informed or having been given the option to change it or leave it be. It's a bit of a courtesy thing in my opinion.

I can only say it's about time. I had him picked out years ago. Actually the first time I saw him on TV was with a friend and both our gaydars went off like mad. I understand the reasoning for the delay... many others have also waited... most until a major part of their careers were over, or they were well established like Elton John. It's just a shame that they wait so long. Positive role models are always needed. But I'm glad he did. Better late then never. And I wish him well.

There are many good points mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to try hard not to cover too much old ground. Mostly I guess I'll give my opinion and let it be. I have no axe to grind with Nifty. It's a forum that was started for a purpose, and I think that it still addresses that original purpose. It's important to remember that Nifty started in 1992. When Nifty began, the internet, online posting, online serials, blogs, video and so many other things weren't what they've evolved into today. The idea of widely-disseminated gay fiction or erotic gay fiction was mostly limited to pulp books purchased in adult book stores, and the quality was pretty dreadful. The internet was a far different place. In fact some of the people now posting stories on Nifty weren't even born when the site began. It was after Nifty that many other sites came into being. Those sights were and have become more specialized, or sophisticated. It points to the fact that this type of genre has a niche and a popular one at that. Nifty posts gay-themed stories that may have an erotic nature. Please take the time to open Nifty's home page and there for all to see is the title the owner of the site chose, a name that has stood since its inception: The Nifty Erotic Stories Archive of Gay Stories. The title itself says a lot. Not only GAY stories but EROTIC. Over the years many types of gay-themed stories have been posted there, but the title of the site remains the same. The fact is, that unless there is something highly objectionable in a work or some great outcry by readers, the Nifty archivist generally posts what he receives. (I will address Riley's point later about a works title). It remains a forum for aspiring writers to try their hand. The fact that a hefty percentage of Nifty's stories never reach completion points to the fact that it's a place for amateur writers. And I do NOT use the term amateur pejoratively. Everyone has to start somewhere and Nifty gives aspiring writers that chance. Nifty is what it is. Its never claimed to be anything else. Other sites that have followed after Nifty may be a bit more discriminating and they may have stricter guidelines. For example someone can't just pop out of the blue and tell the owner of GA that they DEMAND to be made a hosted or promising author (which is as it should be). It is up the the owner of the site to make that decision based on his criterion. Also gay fiction has certainly matured. People want to write different types of pieces and not every piece needs be erotic. In fact most of the better pieces are character or situation based without any desire to be erotic. But the fact is, that 99% of the time, if someone writes gay fiction of an erotic nature they can place it on Nifty without too much difficulty or opposition. Because of that, there have been some good stories and there have been some dreadful stories posted on the site. I think of Nifty like the mass try-outs that are shown on American Idol. Anyone and everyone who thinks they're the next writing sensation can post there. But the reality is that there are more then a few who are more legends in their own mind then interesting and talented writers. Again I don't say this as a slam... EVERYONE has to start somewhere and make their share of mistakes. I've certainly made mine. As to Riley's issue, which is the reason for the thread in the first place, I have to agree 100% with him. I would NOT appreciate someone changing the title of any of my works. I think long and hard about my titles. I don't just pull one off the shelf. In a recent interview Comicality gave, he mentions how he works on titles, and how they are important to him. I think that's true of most writers. That effort of title creation is just as important as the story itself. It's the author's introduction to his work... HIS work... not someone else's. Therefore if I were Riley I would be more then annoyed... actually I'd be down right angry that someone presumed to change the title of my work. If one was going through a publisher for commercial purposes I might see where an editor or publisher might suggest a new title, but hey folks we who write and post on these sites aren't doing this for commercial gain. I certainly have read stories on Nifty, but I personally do not post on Nifty. I have never posted on Nifty, and I will not post on Nifty. This is not because I have anything against Nifty or the people behind it. Again I reiterate: they do preform a service. As someone else above me mentioned, if you want your work spread around, that's the place to go. I've had other writers tell me that they will get much more mail from Nifty readers than readers of other sites. If that's a consideration for a writer then Nifty might be your spot. But another consideration is that Nifty simply places stories in broad categories: Young Friends, High School, College etc. And once you are placed your spot at the top of the list quickly falls as more stories get posted. The only recourse is to keep posting to the same story to keep it afloat. But a single short story in few months time gets buried. So maybe the ONLY thing a buried story has going for it is a catchy title the AUTHOR not the archivist chose for it. One of the reasons I don't post on Nifty is the fact that they won't pull a story if you request it. They state they want rights (even though they are non-exclusive they are in perpetuity). I'm not in favor of that, and so I do not post there... my choice. I've been following Riley's story on GA and one day when I was looking at Nifty postings I saw something similar to his story, but with a strange title. When I opened it I realized it was Riley's story - the same one I was following. This was before he started this thread, and I myself thought it was odd that the title was different. I don't think it was fair to make a decision to change the title of Riley's story. I also don't think it was fair to refuse to use the author's chosen title after the author himself voiced his disagreement with the decision. Had the title been offensive, or some how illegal Nifty might have had a case, but I don't see anything offensive in the story. What's more, some of the... sorry to say this here... but (trash) I've read on Nifty pales in comparison to the use of the word circumcision in a story title. I mean there are stories on Nifty that are pretty raw sometimes... I won't go into details, but there are some things that have turned my stomach and immediately caused me to stop reading a story... yet there it was for anyone to access. So what's the issue suddenly with the word circumcision. In fact some of the titles suggested to Riley were a bit offensive to me. Sorry for the long post, but as a writer I take my words and works seriously. While my writing might not be the greatest in the history of the world, it is first and foremost one thing... MY writing... not someone else's. Having an editor is one thing, but having someone arbitrarily change my story... even the title is another. Jamie

Mobile only... no desire to pay 2 phone bills...

Completely lost my first post... frustrating... so once more from the top: If I distinguish between true friends and acquaintences, then I have more gay friends. When I was teaching at uni. I was an advisor and mentor to the LGBT student organization, this put me in contact with gay faculty, staff, grad students, and undergraduates... some of them eventually became friends... some close ones. When I returned home I picked up with my old friends who were mostly gay. I am fortunate to live in a city where, like San Francisco in the USA, being gay isn't really a big deal or problem. If you don't then I understand the difficulty. Its one reason I choose to live where I live. I tend to be social, but my social scene is more home based. I enjoy cooking and entertaining, so it's not uncommon for me to invite friends over, singles, couples. They in turn sometimes ask to bring friends and those people sometimes turn into my friends. For example I host an English-only night about once a month for my younger gay uni. friends. I feed them and everyone is only allowed to speak English. It's worked out well and I've done it for years now. I've made lots of contacts that way. I have to admit that I've never made friends with someone at a gay bar, or club. I go to such places with people who are already friends, but we also go to straight places (probably more then gay ones). We don't hide the fact that we are gay and if you knew some of my gay friends there is no doubt that they are gay... even if your gaydar is 0 on a scale of 1 to 10, or if you are straight... they're pretty obvious. I have seen some people (and I have one or two friends like this) who claim they want to make friends when in fact they really want a boyfriend, partner or sexual encounter. I have no problem with that, but I notice their forrys into friendship are more like auditions. If the person they befriend ultimately doesn't make the cut they are dropped. I think ifyou are nice, polite, open and accepting of people it's an advantage. Once again I know people who have what they consider are high standards and those standards revolve around beauty, fashion, coolness etc. but there are lots of really nice sweet and kind people out there who are great friend materal if you give them a chance... even if they aren't drop dead handsome or wear the latest fashion. One suggestion I offer for more rural areas (and I have seen it work) is to use your internet skills and meet some people on line in your area...first on line... then AS A GROUP in real... not a date, just as a collective group of people. Meet at someplace accessable and neutral to everyone. Maybe away from prying eyes if you are closeted. That way it's a group and you're safer and also not obliged to go the dating route. Its amazing at who you meet sometimes.

Hi Tim, Much to say about this new work, so I might as well get to the point: 1. The story has a pleasantly refreshing twist. Let's face it when dealing with magic, sorcery, etc... so much of it has already been done in the past, so the trick is to tweak it in such a way that casts it in a different light. From the first 2 chapters you've posted I'm seeing that you're headed in a direction that's different enough to cause my interest and curiosity to grow. 2. There's actually an interesting blend of some things. You could have made Mihai just a wizard (sorcerer) or a prince... but you did both and that's a little different. It's that kind of difference that adds a deeper color to the story. (Shall we say a whiter shade of pale... forgive me). The fact that it takes place in Texas... but in an isolated area is another strong point. You throw a known geography into the mix, but also a different unknown area within that geography to give it some enhanced interest... very good. 3. I like the fact that you chose to go with a more modern day, rather then traditional old-school setting or some forgotten age. I also like those old-time venues, but it's always refreshing to see old themes in a completely different... (read modern)... setting, so for this work I welcome it. 4. The high school setting is also fun... normal teen things, but again with some abnormal twists with magic being a part of it. 5. Your initial plot hook of Mihai not ascending yet is interest catching which is important. We now know that's going to be part of the story... so you've planted that seed in our head... but the fun part now will be seeing, how, when, where, why etc. that problem gets resolved. Very nice thought with that one. 6. I'm also liking the names of the characters... and the names of the places... it might seem like a small point but it shows imagination... and thought... if I'm going to read something I really want, no DEMAND that a writer shows me that they really care about what they're writing... why should I read it otherwise? Just small touches like well thought out names or decent plot elements tell me, the reader, "hey as the writer of this story I care enough about you to make this story interesting for you." So thanks for that. 7. This is a comment not about the story but more along the line of a suggestion... just because there are all those "rules" out there of how things should be within the Sci/Fan genre it doesn't say you can't break a few of them from time to time... that's what makes a story fun. Some of the best vampire stories (for example) broke the traditional rules a bit... or at least bent them. I get the impression you have the sense to do that some time... I encourage you. 8. You have a great editor... smart boy... 9. Keep writing... so I can keep reading... otherwise I'll get angry... ;-) 10. Nice first 2 chaps... I'll be looking for more. Jamie

Thanks guys for the kind words about 33. Yes the nestlings/mice cute little angels unfortunately not always treated so nicely. You bring out a very important point Ricky. What kind of civilization would dispose of beautiful creatures like this? They're an evil lot aren't they? Talonrider is by far the TSOI expert. He knows more about it than the author. Would you believe when I'm desperate to remember something I ask him! He usually instantly gives me the reference and I don't have to go back and look at what I wrote. He's a walking TSOI encyclopedia! How lazy of me. But how nice of him... My deep thanks to the Beta Boys... Talonrider and Ricky the unsung heros of TSOI! You know I couldn't do it without you...

You're right I have to apologize. He obviously didn't get the memo that we're all switching from track to recessed lighting.

You know you're a red neck when you speak French and have a gun rack in your Peugeot...

Well this is one step too far... Be prepared. On Monday, the Gay Enforcement Police will be visiting you... your membership has been officially terminated! Please be prepared to hand in your card and all appropriate documentation.

Brico Plan-it Son chez soi, unepassion pour vous comme pour nous ! http://www.plan-it.be/ sorry site is only in Dutch or French... Metro line: 1B Direction: ERASME/ERASMUS Stop: COOVI/CERIA Take escalator at exit: Chasée De Mons But if your driving from Paris to Brussels you can just go via the E19 motorway and take Sortie (exit) 16. While you're there you can also go to IKEA (walking distance for 5 min) and have some Swedish meatballs in the restaurant. Then get back on the E19 and continue on to Antwerp.

I'm guys. I'll make a tape for all of you to listen to... You should hear me in French: Je t'aime beaucoup mon cher Bed time for me, Bonne nuit et fais de doux rèves.