Gay Pride Parades

[GaryK]

Well, I would certainly choose to be gay. If I couldn't be a gay or bisexual guy I'd probably want to be a lesbian. I'm sure it would be okay being straight, and I'd probably still enjoy life, but it's definitely not my first choice.

Kevin, sometimes the naivety of youth surprises me. If I had to guess I'd say you've never been attacked by a gang of bullies just because you're gay. Never been denied a job because the boss thought you were gay. Never come out to a co-worker who ratted you out to the boss who in turn fired you. Never been called names by strangers in a theater because you and your partner were holding hands. Never trusted your partner to manage your money only to lose all that money when your partner died because you had no legal claim to it. Never been refused the right to sit up front with the family of your deceased partner at the funeral home because they never liked you to begin with and you just had to accept it or risk making a scene. Why anyone would chose a more difficult road in life completely escapes me. Granted things are changing for the better in some respects but being gay can still be a terrible challenge, especially if you don't live in a bubble that contains only friends, employers, etc. who are cool with you being gay.

 

Ugh...I know this is going to sound really stupid, but for some reason, I've always thought that Astroglide was something that people did their hair with.

Nick, at least you'd have a really slick hairdo.

[rich_e]

Kevin, sometimes the naivety of youth surprises me. If I had to guess I'd say you've never been attacked by a gang of bullies just because you're gay. Never been denied a job because the boss thought you were gay. Never come out to a co-worker who ratted you out to the boss who in turn fired you. Never been called names by strangers in a theater because you and your partner were holding hands. Never trusted your partner to manage your money only to lose all that money when your partner died because you had no legal claim to it. Never been refused the right to sit up front with the family of your deceased partner at the funeral home because they never liked you to begin with and you just had to accept it or risk making a scene. Why anyone would chose a more difficult road in life completely escapes me. Granted things are changing for the better in some respects but being gay can still be a terrible challenge, especially if you don't live in a bubble that contains only friends, employers, etc. who are cool with you being gay.

 

As naive as some may deem it to be, I think that these are terrible excuses to prefer to be straight. These are all issues that should NOT be happening, and could occur to anybody. So what if it's a more difficult road? I would never prefer something just because it would be easier. Life itself is difficult.

 

I would definitely choose to be gay.

[GaryK]

As naive as some may deem it to be, I think that these are terrible excuses to prefer to be straight. These are all issues that should NOT be happening, and could occur to anybody. So what if it's a more difficult road? I would never prefer something just because it would be easier. Life itself is difficult.

 

I would definitely choose to be gay.

I agree these are issues that should not be happening, but they are happening. Until gay partners have the same rights as straight partners these things will continue to be a problem.

 

Maybe the younger generation doesn't find it as difficult to be gay as it was when I was your age. Is that how you see the situation? Have things changed so much that you honestly would choose to be gay?

[NickolasJames8]

Kevin, sometimes the naivety of youth surprises me. If I had to guess I'd say you've never been attacked by a gang of bullies just because you're gay. Never been denied a job because the boss thought you were gay. Never come out to a co-worker who ratted you out to the boss who in turn fired you. Never been called names by strangers in a theater because you and your partner were holding hands. Never trusted your partner to manage your money only to lose all that money when your partner died because you had no legal claim to it. Never been refused the right to sit up front with the family of your deceased partner at the funeral home because they never liked you to begin with and you just had to accept it or risk making a scene. Why anyone would chose a more difficult road in life completely escapes me. Granted things are changing for the better in some respects but being gay can still be a terrible challenge, especially if you don't live in a bubble that contains only friends, employers, etc. who are cool with you being gay.

 

I have to say that what you're saying seems a little unfair. Kevin has a family, just like the rest of us, and he had to deal with the coming out process, and I'd guess that he's still going through it. I mean, who isn't? Everytime we meet someone new and they find out we're gay/bi, the risk is there for a violent reaction or for simple rejection, which can be just as hurtful.

I understand that life hasn't been easy for glbt folks in the past. All you have to do is look back on history to see that. I don't know what your personal experiences have been, but I've been called fag by almost as many people as those who took it well when I came out. My girlfriend's mom always makes smartass remarks about how I'll probably give her AIDS, and when she was pregnant, we had to listen to her mom say that we had a AIDS baby.

But does that mean I'd choose not to be gay? Hell no. I'd never want to be something I'm not, and to be honest, I do feel proud of who I am. I'd like to know if that makes me naive.

 

 

Nick, at least you'd have a really slick hairdo.

 

Ok, so maybe I'm a little naive

[GaryK]

I have to say that what you're saying seems a little unfair. Kevin has a family, just like the rest of us, and he had to deal with the coming out process, and I'd guess that he's still going through it. I mean, who isn't? Everytime we meet someone new and they find out we're gay/bi, the risk is there for a violent reaction or for simple rejection, which can be just as hurtful.

I understand that life hasn't been easy for glbt folks in the past. All you have to do is look back on history to see that. I don't know what your personal experiences have been, but I've been called fag by almost as many people as those who took it well when I came out. My girlfriend's mom always makes smartass remarks about how I'll probably give her AIDS, and when she was pregnant, we had to listen to her mom say that we had a AIDS baby.

But does that mean I'd choose not to be gay? Hell no. I'd never want to be something I'm not, and to be honest, I do feel proud of who I am. I'd like to know if that makes me naive.

Nick, your comments about potentially facing a violent reaction when coming out to someone make me wonder why you'd choose to be gay. Straight people don't have to deal with that. Pardon me if I'm getting too personal but isn't the situation you're in now a bit hypocritical for you to claim you're proud of who you are? I feel bad for what you're dealing with. Honestly I do. We don't know each other that well, but from what I've seen you posting in the forums you seem like a decent and smart young man. But it seems like you're trying to run away from being gay, not embracing it or choosing to accept it. Please forgive me if I've overstepped the bounds of what should be discussed in a forum.

[NickolasJames8]

Nick, your comments about potentially facing a violent reaction when coming out to someone make me wonder why you'd choose to be gay. Straight people don't have to deal with that. Pardon me if I'm getting too personal but isn't the situation you're in now a bit hypocritical for you to claim you're proud of who you are? I feel bad for what you're dealing with. Honestly I do. We don't know each other that well, but from what I've seen you posting in the forums you seem like a decent and smart young man. But it seems like you're trying to run away from being gay, not embracing it or choosing to accept it. Please forgive me if I've overstepped the bounds of what should be discussed in a forum.

 

 

We can discuss it if you want. I know that it seems odd, but I do consider myself gay, and my gf knows it. But I love her. I can't explain it, other than to say that I feel desperate to be with her all the time. That's painful because our parents do what they can to keep us apart. But I'm not running away from anything.

If I were running away from who I was, I'd most likely have taken my page down here and at Awesomedude, and asked Myr to unregister me. I don't take what you're saying as an insult, but I think you don't understand because you aren't in my shoes. I'm not in yours either, so I can't condemn how you feel. But I can say that i stand by what I said about myself and about Kevin. I'm probably a little biased when it comes to Kevin because I think he's everything I'd like to strive to be.I can remember when he blogged about possibly coming out to his mom way back in the day, and then he blogged about how he went through with it. I was soooo proud of him, and even prouder of who I was than ever before.

It's easy to be on a forum and talk about pride. None of us are ideal, I guess. I know I'm not, and I suppose that if I want to prove my pride, I'd announce my sexuality to everyone at my church. I haven't done that, and I don't just walk around with a sign that says, "I'm Gay." But that doesn't mean I want to be anything other than the gay/bi/whatever the hell you want to call me type of person that the good Lord made me.

[GaryK]

I appreciate your reasoned response to what I had to say.

 

If you can't explain the situation with your girlfriend then I sure can't either. Except perhaps to state that sometimes, despite our orientation, the right person of the wrong gender comes along and you just fall in love. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for both of you then who am I to pass judgment? I wouldn't do that. I'd be happy for you. If I were you though I would be constantly asking myself if I'm being true to who I am. If you're satisfied with the answer then keep on keeping on.

 

I admire Kevin, too. He and I are usually in agreement about things. That's why his comment caught me so off guard. It's one thing to accept who, as you put it, the good lord made [you]. It's quite another to state that if given the choice you'd choose to be gay. I fully accept who I am. It's not even an issue for me anymore. That doesn't change the fact that if I were given a chance to choose my sexual identity I'd choose to be gay. To me it just doesn't make sense to choose an orientation that's bound to make life more difficult than it already is.

 

Really, I can't state it anymore plainly than this. Why make things harder for yourself on purpose?

[NickolasJames8]

I appreciate your reasoned response to what I had to say.

 

If you can't explain the situation with your girlfriend then I sure can't either. Except perhaps to state that sometimes, despite our orientation, the right person of the wrong gender comes along and you just fall in love. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for both of you then who am I to pass judgment? I wouldn't do that. I'd be happy for you. If I were you though I would be constantly asking myself if I'm being true to who I am. If you're satisfied with the answer then keep on keeping on.

 

I admire Kevin, too. He and I are usually in agreement about things. That's why his comment caught me so off guard. It's one thing to accept who, as you put it, the good lord made [you]. It's quite another to state that if given the choice you'd choose to be gay. I fully accept who I am. It's not even an issue for me anymore. That doesn't change the fact that if I were given a chance to choose my sexual identity I'd choose to be gay. To me it just doesn't make sense to choose an orientation that's bound to make life more difficult than it already is.

 

Really, I can't state it anymore plainly than this. Why make things harder for yourself on purpose?

 

I guess my question would be this: If you were black, and you could be white, would you do it? Certainly life would be easier in the same way it would be if you could be straight.

[GaryK]

I guess my question would be this: If you were black, and you could be white, would you do it? Certainly life would be easier in the same way it would be if you could be straight.

Wow, that's actually a tougher question to answer than I thought it would be at first.

 

My first answer was yes, I would prefer to be white. But then I thought about it and realized that while prejudices against blacks still exist the situation isn't as bad as it used to be. Also, there are laws to help blacks fight back against discrimination. Gays don't have the same level of legal protection against discrimination yet. So at this point in time, I'd say I wouldn't choose to be white instead of black. However, until things change even more for us, I would still choose to be straight instead of gay. Again, I'm perfectly happy with who I am. That will never change. But my path through life would have been much easier if I had been straight. Hopefully that will change some day. In some places it is changing and that's great. Maybe in those places I would choose to be gay. That's the most I can concede at this point in time.

[Daisy]

I admire Kevin, too. He and I are usually in agreement about things. That's why his comment caught me so off guard. It's one thing to accept who, as you put it, the good lord made [you]. It's quite another to state that if given the choice you'd choose to be gay. I fully accept who I am. It's not even an issue for me anymore. That doesn't change the fact that if I were given a chance to choose my sexual identity I'd choose to be gay. To me it just doesn't make sense to choose an orientation that's bound to make life more difficult than it already is.

 

Really, I can't state it anymore plainly than this. Why make things harder for yourself on purpose?

 

I've heard this debate before, about a pill, and if it was avaiblle would you take it to give yourself the straight orientation. The response was varied then aswell. I think for the people who wouldnt change anything, its because they really are happy with themselves, can't imagine life (as in your perspective on the world) any other way. being gay is part of that, its part of who you are (even if it doesnt define you). Kevin's response about being a lesbian made me laugh really hard .

 

but I can understand not wanting the bad bits, some of that list you gave was disheartening, I hope that you havent faced all that.

 

Celia

[GaryK]

[...]

but I can understand not wanting the bad bits, some of that list you gave was disheartening, I hope that you havent faced all that.

 

Celia

Celia, I have had to deal with all that. The worst part was not being able to take an active role in the funeral for my partner of 17 years. If I had been straight and that partner were my wife I'd have all sorts of legal rights to protect what we'd built together. Instead I had nothing. I couldn't even get some of my own things from his townhouse because the family wouldn't let me have access. At least Dick's brother wasn't an ass, but he was overruled by his father and mother.

[Daisy]

Celia, I have had to deal with all that. The worst part was not being able to take an active role in the funeral for my partner of 17 years. If I had been straight and that partner were my wife I'd have all sorts of legal rights to protect what we'd built together. Instead I had nothing. I couldn't even get some of my own things from his townhouse because the family wouldn't let me have access. At least Dick's brother wasn't an ass, but he was overruled by his father and mother.

 

 

I'm really sorry to hear that. I am really lucky to live in a time and place where things are getting better, even if they are not perfect. I hope that things in your life are getting better.

Celia

[GaryK]

I'm really sorry to hear that. I am really lucky to live in a time and place where things are getting better, even if they are not perfect. I hope that things in your life are getting better.

Celia

Please always remember that and keep pushing to make things even more perfect.

 

Thank you for your concern. Things are much better in my life. The death and funeral happened way back in 1992.

[Daisy]

Please always remember that and keep pushing to make things even more perfect.

 

Thank you for your concern. Things are much better in my life. The death and funeral happened way back in 1992.

 

Yep, I am more determined than ever to keep working for what is right, not just for gay people. Glad that things are working out for you now, though it mustnt be nice living with the bad memories even if they fade and other more positive things in life takeover.

 

I suppose another way of readressing that question about whether to change if you could your sexual preference is whether you would want to forfeit all the good things that came with it, like relationships with people that have been good and whom you loved. if you could do-over would people be willing to sacrifice that.

 

Celia

[AFriendlyFace]

Wow, you guys sure do know how to make a guy blush, but feel happy and touched!

 

As naive as some may deem it to be, I think that these are terrible excuses to prefer to be straight. These are all issues that should NOT be happening, and could occur to anybody. So what if it's a more difficult road? I would never prefer something just because it would be easier. Life itself is difficult.

 

I would definitely choose to be gay.

Thanks Richie, I agree with that

 

I understand that life hasn't been easy for glbt folks in the past. All you have to do is look back on history to see that. I don't know what your personal experiences have been, but I've been called fag by almost as many people as those who took it well when I came out. My girlfriend's mom always makes smartass remarks about how I'll probably give her AIDS, and when she was pregnant, we had to listen to her mom say that we had a AIDS baby.

 

I'm so so sorry you've had to go through that, Nick. I'm really really proud of you though and very impressed!

 

But does that mean I'd choose not to be gay? Hell no. I'd never want to be something I'm not, and to be honest, I do feel proud of who I am. I'd like to know if that makes me naive.

 

Nick, your comments about potentially facing a violent reaction when coming out to someone make me wonder why you'd choose to be gay. Straight people don't have to deal with that. Pardon me if I'm getting too personal but isn't the situation you're in now a bit hypocritical for you to claim you're proud of who you are? I feel bad for what you're dealing with. Honestly I do. We don't know each other that well, but from what I've seen you posting in the forums you seem like a decent and smart young man. But it seems like you're trying to run away from being gay, not embracing it or choosing to accept it. Please forgive me if I've overstepped the bounds of what should be discussed in a forum.

Nick already responded to this, but I can assure you if there's one thing I know about Nick it's that he isn't ashamed of who he is and he'd never back down from something or hide from it just because it was easier than facing it!

 

But I can say that i stand by what I said about myself and about Kevin. I'm probably a little biased when it comes to Kevin because I think he's everything I'd like to strive to be.I can remember when he blogged about possibly coming out to his mom way back in the day, and then he blogged about how he went through with it. I was soooo proud of him, and even prouder of who I was than ever before.

Wow Nick thanks! You know you helped give me the courage and inspiration to do that.

 

And I think anyone would do well to strive to live their life with the same degree of integrity, strength, and firm sense of right and wrong which you make look so natural and inherent.

 

If you can't explain the situation with your girlfriend then I sure can't either. Except perhaps to state that sometimes, despite our orientation, the right person of the wrong gender comes along and you just fall in love. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for both of you then who am I to pass judgment? I wouldn't do that. I'd be happy for you. If I were you though I would be constantly asking myself if I'm being true to who I am. If you're satisfied with the answer then keep on keeping on.

I don't think it's the wrong gender per se. I'm sure she's just as she's meant to be and I'm sure Nick loves her just the way she is. I was really proud of Nick when I found out he was being honest about his feelings and dating a girl! Personally, I don't think that was at all the 'easier' choice for him. Just as it would be MUCH harder for me to date a girl right now than it would be to date a guy. I'd have to completely change my lifestyle AND deal with everyone questioning my motives and feelings while also remaining suspicious and prejudice. I suspect Nick's had to go through a lot of that too.

 

I admire Kevin, too. He and I are usually in agreement about things. That's why his comment caught me so off guard. It's one thing to accept who, as you put it, the good lord made [you]. It's quite another to state that if given the choice you'd choose to be gay. I fully accept who I am. It's not even an issue for me anymore. That doesn't change the fact that if I were given a chance to choose my sexual identity I'd choose to be gay. To me it just doesn't make sense to choose an orientation that's bound to make life more difficult than it already is.

 

Really, I can't state it anymore plainly than this. Why make things harder for yourself on purpose?

Thanks, Gary I appreciate that!

 

I'm a bit surprised you would think I would ever want to be anything but gay.

 

I've heard this debate before, about a pill, and if it was avaiblle would you take it to give yourself the straight orientation. The response was varied then aswell. I think for the people who wouldnt change anything, its because they really are happy with themselves, can't imagine life (as in your perspective on the world) any other way. being gay is part of that, its part of who you are (even if it doesnt define you). Kevin's response about being a lesbian made me laugh really hard .

 

but I can understand not wanting the bad bits, some of that list you gave was disheartening, I hope that you havent faced all that.

Celia's answer sums up my feelings and thoughts on this pretty well.

 

Basically being gay has been a really major and really positive thing in my life. No, it hasn't always been easy, but the rewards have been innumerable and immeasurable. It has completely shaped the way I view world and the life I've led, and I'm very very happy with my world view, sense of morality, and life experiences. I would never want to risk them being any different.

 

On a simple level nearly all my close friends are GLBT, I've made efforts and continue making efforts to reach out to members of the straight community (especially family, old friends, and co-workers), my major life objectives and career goals all include working with and for the GLBT community and civil rights in general (including women's rights, racial/ethnic rights, and religious tolerance), much of my educational experience AND my future educational aspirations include studying issues related to the GLBT community, my hobbies (GA and writing for example) and my social life are focused around or heavily influenced by the GLBT community. Being gay has had a huge impact on how I view other minorities and differences in people.

 

In a nutshell, I would definitely not want to loose all that!

 

I said I'd also rather be bisexual or a lesbian because first off I know, care about, and respect quite a few lesbians or bisexuals. Also, frankly I simply understand it better and am more comfortable with it; it would be more like what I've got. I would assume that my chances of having many of the same experiences and state of mind/perspective would be a bit better as a lesbian or bisexual, and as I said, I simply wouldn't want to trade what I've got. I'm also heavily aligned with the lesbian and bisexual communities, probably much more so that the average gay guy, so it would be something I would understand and could identify with. Apart from which there are a ton of things about lesbian relationships which I really respect and admire anyway and would definitely enjoy experiencing first hand.

 

Obviously I love being a gay guy (that's kinda what this whole post is about), but some of the best relationships I've seen have been lesbian. Also, let me say as seriously as possible that despite the seeming paradox, I would love to experience 'lesbian sex' as a guy and with a guy. I say this because I think it has very little to do with pure anatomy and much more to do with sensuality, frame of mind, emotion, trust, etc. In that way I'm sure a lot of gay males and male/female couples can and do have 'lesbian sex', but I do classify it as 'lesbian sex' because what I'm talking about seems to come most frequently and most naturally to lesbians.

 

Apart from all that, I'll admit there's also a 'less noble' streak in me that simply enjoys standing out and being a bit counter-cultural. That's secondary to all the other stuff, but it's a delightful added bonus. Given the choice I'd rather be 'different' than 'the same' or 'stand out' rather than simply 'blend in' anyway.

 

So for all those reasons I'd much rather be gay than straight. Really it's not contest for me.

 

I do think I will be accepted, but I live somewhat on the 'country'-side, and people tend to gossip a lot here, and that's what I'm afraid of.. They will remain polite in my face, but when I'm not around... Can't tell, because I won't be there then

 

Not to over-simplify things, and as I said I'm really proud of you with as well as you're already doing and as far and quickly as you've come, but if you won't know because you won't be there anyway...would it matter?

 

 

Take care and have an awesome day all

Kevin

Edited May 26, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[Tiger]

I think I could possibly be with a woman, but she would have to be damn special and know how to use an attachment (and I don't mean an email one). I do find it highly unlikely though. I really do think I started out bisexual and slowly drifted towards being gay. I can't explain it. Maybe, I just accepted it. It's difficult for me to comprehend that part of my psyche. I'm sorry about being off-topic, but it seems like we all are to a certain extent. I can say that I would love to organize a Pride parade in which people got to see a more positive side of us. I think part of the problem is that the media wants only to show the freaks. Perhaps I need to actually go to one and find out for myself.

[rich_e]

I agree these are issues that should not be happening, but they are happening. Until gay partners have the same rights as straight partners these things will continue to be a problem.

 

Maybe the younger generation doesn't find it as difficult to be gay as it was when I was your age. Is that how you see the situation? Have things changed so much that you honestly would choose to be gay?

 

They will continue to be a problem, but what needs to be taken into consideration is that gay people aren't the only people facing these problems. Most of those problems are situational, and are not just limited to gay people. While I do believe that it has definitely gotten easier for the younger situation than past generations, I still stress the fact that despite the level of difficulty in being gay, I would still choose to be gay.

 

As Kevin put it, it's all about point of view and frame of mind. Being gay has had a huge impact on how I see the world and how my life has been played out. I think it's something that has shaped the person I am and how I react to situations and handle them. Yeah, I suppose things would have been simpler if I were straight, but I wouldn't be the same person that I am. I simply don't wish I had grown up straight instead of gay.

[Daisy]

I said I'd also rather be bisexual or a lesbian because first off I know, care about, and respect quite a few lesbians or bisexuals. Also, frankly I simply understand it better and am more comfortable with it; it would be more like what I've got. I would assume that my chances of having many of the same experiences and state of mind/perspective would be a bit better as a lesbian or bisexual, and as I said, I simply wouldn't want to trade what I've got. I'm also heavily aligned with the lesbian and bisexual communities, probably much more so that the average gay guy, so it would be something I would understand and could identify with. Apart from which there are a ton of things about lesbian relationships which I really respect and admire anyway and would definitely enjoy experiencing first hand.

 

Obviously I love being a gay guy (that's kinda what this whole post is about), but some of the best relationships I've seen have been lesbian. Also, let me say as seriously as possible that despite the seeming paradox, I would love to experience 'lesbian sex' as a guy and with a guy. I say this because I think it has very little to do with pure anatomy and much more to do with sensuality, frame of mind, emotion, trust, etc. In that way I'm sure a lot of gay males and male/female couples can and do have 'lesbian sex', but I do classify it as 'lesbian sex' because what I'm talking about seems to come most frequently and most naturally to lesbians.

Sorry Kevin, I just thought it was a funny image to picture, you kind of caught me off guard. You explained yourself well, I can understand. Goodluck with finding the lesbian sex, am sure it can't be that hard to find.

Celia

[GaryK]

Pardon me if my typing is illegible. I'm doubled-over laughing at Kevin's comment about lesbian sex so it's a bit hard to type, LOL.

 

My opinion is clearly in the minority amongst the members who have posted. All of whom I respect and some of whom I admire.

 

When something like that happens I really have no choice but to take another look at my reasons for feeling the way I do. I've done that and still come up with the same answer. I would not choose to be gay. And yet at the same time I think you all have done a great job of enlightening me as to why you would choose to be gay.

 

I wish some of the older members had joined in this discussion so I'd have a better basis for comparison, but I strongly suspect the younger generation feels much more comfortable with being gay or lesbian. If so then I hope the struggles the older generations have gone through have played some part in making it possible for you younger folks to feel that way.

 

We still have a long way to go to be accepted instead of just tolerated, but with attitudes like you all have I'm sure that will happen sooner rather than later.

 

That makes me feel good. Thanks.

[old bob]

I wish some of the older members had joined in this discussion so I'd have a better basis for comparison.

Hi Gary,

As one of he older members (if not the oldest !) I followed the discussion with some astonishment. To choose or not to be gay ? What a strange question ! In the sixties and later, we hadn't time to think "theoretically". We were what we were and being gay or bi instead of being straight, to be in the closet or coming out, was more the result of the experiences we made than an intellectual decision !

but I strongly suspect the younger generation feels much more comfortable with being gay or lesbian. If so then I hope the struggles the older generations have gone through have played some part in making it possible for you younger folks to feel that way.

I'm not sure that how the younger generation feels today is the results of the struggles of the older generations. It's just that today most of the powerful people have other interests, economically and politically, than to support an ideological fight against GBLT, and that the homophobes churches are loosing influence in favor of more open evangelical movements.

We still have a long way to go to be accepted instead of just tolerated, but with attitudes like you all have I'm sure that will happen sooner rather than later. That makes me feel good. Thanks.

I'm perhaps too optimistic ? but my feeeling is, that at least in Western Europe, we are a lot more "accepted" than "tolerated".

Gary, I hope that you are conscious to live today in another world than in 1992.

And BTW, if you are talking of "the struggles the older generations", dont forget : successful Gay Pride Parades belonged to these "struggles" .

Old bob (79 in 15 days !)

Edited May 26, 2008 by old bob

[Dion]

I just now read through this thread and have to say I'm fascinated by the responses.

 

Just a couple of things I wanted to say:

 

1) I didn't vote at all. I haven't seen a parade and I'm not likely to, so I really can't voice an opinion on the matter.

 

2) The B-plot: Certainly the 'straight life' seems more seductive, given the lack of social stigma. For those who have gone through hell because they're gay or bi... I can see where they might wish they could choose not to be.

 

Still, for me the thought of denying a part of what I am is not an attractive one. Even if there is no one else I can be honest with, I need to be honest with myself and wishing I were something I'm not would only make me unhappy. Since there are so many other things in life that do that, I don't plan on adding to it.

 

I was about to submit this when I had another thought: What if all gay and bisexual people could choose not to be - and did? The idea horrifies me on many levels.

[AFriendlyFace]

I think I could possibly be with a woman, but she would have to be damn special and know how to use an attachment (and I don't mean an email one).

Really Tim! Expecting your poor girlfriend to do all vacuuming! I'm disappointed *tisk tisk*

 

When something like that happens I really have no choice but to take another look at my reasons for feeling the way I do. I've done that and still come up with the same answer. I would not choose to be gay.

Well I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with that opinion at all, especially if you have integrated your sexuality comfortably into your life anyway (and you have ). So I think it's okay if you just feel like "this is the way it is, and I'm fine with that, but I'd prefer something else." As I said, it's not quite the way I feel about this particular subject, but it's certainly your prerogative

 

 

I wish some of the older members had joined in this discussion so I'd have a better basis for comparison, but I strongly suspect the younger generation feels much more comfortable with being gay or lesbian. If so then I hope the struggles the older generations have gone through have played some part in making it possible for you younger folks to feel that way.

I certainly think the older generation has impacted this, and I further agree with you that it's probably a little more likely that the younger generation is more comfortable and optimistic about this than the older one. In twenty years time I expect, and very much hope, that gay kids growing up will have a completely different experience than myself and the others here, and that it will be even more of a non-issue.

 

As one of he older members (if not the oldest !) I followed the discussion with some astonishment. To choose or not to be gay ? What a strange question ! In the sixties and later, we hadn't time to think "theoretically". We were what we were and being gay or bi instead of being straight, to be in the closet or coming out, was more the result of the experiences we made than an intellectual decision !

This is indeed further evidence of personal and generational experiences!

 

I'm not sure that how the younger generation feels today is the results of the struggles of the older generations. It's just that today most of the powerful people have other interests, economically and politically, than to support an ideological fight against GBLT, and that the homophobes churches are loosing influence in favor of more open evangelical movements.

I am inclined to attribute much of this to the GLBT/allies who came before us. I think you're right that the politicians and churches are shifting their focus, but I think this is in large part due to the efforts of these activists of yesteryear.

 

Old bob (79 in 15 days !)

Happy almost birthday!

 

I was about to submit this when I had another thought: What if all gay and bisexual people could choose not to be - and did? The idea horrifies me on many levels.

This horrifies me too!! Indeed I briefly discussed how I felt about this more in the thread "A Gay "Switch" "

 

 

Take care all,

Kevin

[tator_tot2010]

Alright, well I have seen this thread numerous times on other sites, and I have to say the reactions are always i/nteresting. I for one can't say I have a problem at all with gay pride parades, and in reality I can't wait until I participate in one. If you ask me, gay pride parades are about celebrating who we are, be that the creepy nympho in all the leather or the Hot Gay Nerd in the thick-rimmed glasses (although, if you wore those to a gay pride parade, I don't see them staying on that long... Too many fashion-minded folk. ). It's also about showing everyone that this is how we roll, and if you don't like it you can just go screw a lamp for all we care. I watched a video once that brought up some of the first gay pride parades, and they were about saying that gays are a reality whether you like it or not. We are going to party it up one time a year, and you will deal with it. Gay pride parades are like that diamond stuck in the briar patch; as homosexuals we deal with a lot of crap day to day, and gay pride parades are our time to have a taste of what straight people get every single day, which is to be utterly and completely free to act as we see fit with no judgments. Who the heck is going to judge you in a sea of homosexuality?

 

I believe that the term "gay pride" will eventually fade out once we have equal rights and are viewed as just another person in the world. I'm not sure the parades will end, though, partly because who the heck doesn't want an excuse to have a good time, and because of traditional value.

 

Also, I wonder what people think of straight girls kissing other girls for attention? Does THAT not almost make it look like the gay community is a bunch of freaks looking for someone to watch while they say "Look what I can do!"? I don't really care if girls do that, or anyone else for that matter.... If you are judging an entire community based on something like that, then you are probably extremely closed-minded. That's like saying all blacks are thieves just because one robs a convenience store, or that Hispanics are all illegal immigrants just because SOME of them are. How about looking past that and realizing at the base we are all people and are all different on some level? I don't really think anyone is simply going to see a pride parade and think homosexuals are the scum of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by that time they already have some ingrained problems with gays to begin with. If they were to see the neighbor's kid run around in skimpy outfits acting in a totally sexual manner, they probably wouldn't label them as a sexual deviant just like that. I suspect it would take more than that one incident. Things like these are acquired over time, and I highly doubt many people's exposure to the gay community is ONLY gay pride. We live in a time where it is very, VERY hard to ignore gays, what with celebrities coming out right, left, and center, in addition to shows like Will and Grace.

 

Basically, I say if a straight person doesn't like it, they can go lick their toilet, because we are not doing it for their benefit. We are doing it for OUR benefit. If we were doing it for them we would call them "heterosexual appeasement parades", which we clearly do not. The moment we do such a thing is the day we let down all the LGBT rights pioneers before us and say "You, the haters, win. We just want you to treat us how you see fit, and we will go ahead and deal with it."

 

If you'll recall, Stonewall was about not taking prejudiced people's bull, and if we censor all those parades now, that will all have been for naught, and we will take a HUGE step back in our fight for our rights. I do see where many people come from saying a lot of the behavior is TOO outrageous (orgies in a parade? What the fudge? When did it turn into a porno pride parade?), and I certainly wouldn't see the harm in having more parades that are family friendly.... But don't you dare censor the parades we already have, because they are what I think of as a beautiful testament to gay history by saying, "We're not gonna take it, so IN YOUR FACE!"

 

In closing, I say they can both hurt and help our cause. They help by showing what an awesome force the gay community can be, but they hurt in that some people might see them and, combined with earlier prejudices, will say we're all lunatics/freaks who will recruit young children to the dark side.... However, I don't think we should care about that, because honestly, no matter WHAT we do, no matter HOW innocent and/or productive it may seem, because of that "gay sticker" on it, people will find something inherently bad with it.

 

... My, that felt good. I should do that more often. But now that I'm finished, I kinda wanna hear where people think I'm utterly mistaken.... It's been quite a while since I've written something of this nature, haha.

Edited July 6, 2008 by tator_tot2010

[AFriendlyFace]

Well said, dude!

 

No complaints out of me

[kitten]

I think that gay pride marches have overall been good for gay people, especially in the past when being gay was considered to be very, very, bad and when few people would admit to being gay. When there was no internet to help with contacting other gay people, when the only way to meet gay people was to go to seedy bars and when going the local gay group (if one existed at all) meant risk of being seen and outed, it was very easy for a gay person to feel totally isolated.

 

Gay pride marches showed, not just to the general public but also to the isolated gay people, that there were lots of us out there. There are, of course other advantages and disadvantages of such marches (e.g. the general public might feel 'threatened' or might see some unconventional gay people and think that we are all like that) but in my mind there is no doubt that the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages.

 

Those advantages and disadvantages still exist in many places. However, it might be argued that in some places nowadays, with so many visible gay people, respectable gay venues and general acceptance (at least here in England) there is no longer any real need for gay pride march. Maybe now it is more just a celebration and excuse for just fun, but what is wrong with that? Does a New Years parade have to have a good reason? Does a Mardi Gras parade have to be filled with true religious believers? What's wrong with a bit of fun, celebrating and enjoying who we are?

 

Kit