Is someone ever culpable for another's actions?

[Benji]

Hmm. Recently in the UK there was a courtcase regarding compensation for rape victims. Some people had been denied compensation on the grounds that they had been drunk or at least had a drink or a smoke of cannibis and therefore they didnt deserve to get the money available. This decision has been overturned when somebody challenged it, but past victims who didnt recieve compensation are not going to be entitled to reclaim. Now, are people who have a drink partly responsible for their own rape? or if not responsible, a little bit to blame at least for letting a substance put them in a more vulnerable state. the same goes for the date-rape drugs and keeping an eye on your glass. or trusting a pleasant stranger. or what about walking home after a night out and getting attacked. is it fair to those people to say that to them, what about their recovery. and then there is somebody who goes along with the beginning of sex then decide its not what they want and say no, is it rape or not when the partner continues regardless because they are too far gone or is it the others fault for getting themselves in that position....?

 

celia

 

celia

 

.......Interesting, there was a time when the defense of an accused rapist would tear down the victim, claiming her provocative attire was the reason for the rape. (In some case's the jury agreed) So the 15 year old girl caused her own rape because she was walking down the street in a skimpy outfit. Interesting!

[Bandage]

.......Interesting, there was a time when the defense of an accused rapist would tear down the victim, claiming her provocative attire was the reason for the rape. (In some case's the jury agreed) So the 15 year old girl caused her own rape because she was walking down the street in a skimpy outfit. Interesting!

 

Isn't that always the case in Moslim lands? There the raped person is guilty... Because, you said it, they were wearing provocative clothing..

[Daisy]

Isn't that always the case in Moslim lands? There the raped person is guilty... Because, you said it, they were wearing provocative clothing..

In, i think saudi arabia, a women who is raped is automatically guilty. there was a case where a women was married. she was raped. she was then acused of adultery. she was then beaten and sent to jail for this adultery. even if the girl was single they'd be done for sleeping with someone outside wedlock and the rapist goes free.

 

its disgusting!!

 

celia

[Bandage]

In, i think saudi arabia, a women who is raped is automatically guilty. there was a case where a women was married. she was raped. she was then acused of adultery. she was then beaten and sent to jail for this adultery. even if the girl was single they'd be done for sleeping with someone outside wedlock and the rapist goes free.

 

its disgusting!!

 

celia

 

It's sad that this still happens... ~.~

[Daisy]

Isn't that always the case in Moslim lands? There the raped person is guilty... Because, you said it, they were wearing provocative clothing..

 

I don't know where I stand on the muslim clothing for women. (is it called a burka??) its supposedly for the womens protection, no? because men have no self control... So its actually as one muslim man in Egypt told me (if I remember its a little while ago) liberating for the women.

 

this is off-topic abit. I don't know what to think about it really, especially since I don't know that much about the muslim faith. but, this developed when I went to Turkey when I was 13/14 and the men there were disgusting and very inappropriate in the street where we were. ever since I have been uncomfortable especially going to muslim countries. I've also been warned as usual whenever I go to such places that some of the men automatically think british girls are easy, they are gagging for it, and so they use it as an excuse to be inappropriate and rude, so yes don't wear such clothes, where your shoulders are bare etc etc. but even then I've felt uncomfortable. it could have been I was just in a strange country so as outsiders people are going to stare at you. but, and maybe it is a mental thing on my part, I feel uncomfortable talking to muslim men, especially in their own countries, as I always thinking what are they thinking of me, or about me, and can I behave in the same way as I usually do. and then the women as well, do they look down on me for not covering all of my body. I don't know... it's just how I think. but then I became great friends with an Iranian guy last summer who isnt muslim but all his family are, some of whom I've met and they were fine.

 

celia

[kitten]

Hmm. Recently in the UK there was a courtcase regarding compensation for rape victims. Some people had been denied compensation on the grounds that they had been drunk or at least had a drink or a smoke of cannibis and therefore they didnt deserve to get the money available.

 

I think that it is important to distinguish here between criminality and compensation. The behaviour of the victim does not affect the criminality of the rapist and he is found guilty and sent to jail whether the victim was drunk or not. Compensation is where society (i.e. we taxpayers) pay a victim some money to contribute toward the victim's recovery from the crime. The convicted criminal does not pay that compensation.

 

Now I'm not trying to equate rape and car theft, but the distiction between criminality and compensation is analagous. If you leave your car unlocked with the key in the ignition and someone steals your car, then your negligence does not alter the criminality of the thief. However, your negligence might well affect whether or not your insurance company will pay up.

 

Obviously, it is debatable whether or not getting drunk with strangers should be be regarded as neglligent behaviour with respect to it contributing to a rape. FWIW, I personally don't think that it should be. Certainly, it's not the same order of negligence as leaving a car unlocked with keys in the ignition. However, the theoretical idea that a degree of negligence can affect compensation without affecting criminality is not completely unreasonable.

 

Kit

[Daisy]

Obviously, it is debatable whether or not getting drunk with strangers should be be regarded as neglligent behaviour with respect to it contributing to a rape. FWIW, I personally don't think that it should be. Certainly, it's not the same order of negligence as leaving a car unlocked with keys in the ignition. However, the theoretical idea that a degree of negligence can affect compensation without affecting criminality is not completely unreasonable.

 

Kit

 

I agree, its not unreasonable theoretically. but there is a big But here. rape is unacceptable. in an ideal world it wouldnt happen, so is it wrong to assume that the people around you are decent human beings not animals. unfortunatley I do think that a Woman who gets absolutely blind drunk in a dodgy setting is partially to blame as you say for negilence (depending on why they are caught up in that situation). However I wouldnt deny them compensation. They've been through an ordeal and as society we should look after her and aid her recovery as much as we can rather than further destroy her/or his confidence and financial ability to get things they need. I also think the government and of course, society - the people in it, are responsible for creating and ensuring a safe environment where these sort of concerns, being wary that people will take serious advantage, aren't needed. therefore as I already said, although its not the governments, or taxpayers, fault that they were raped per se, it does go towards repairing the damage that shouldnt have been there. the car insurance one is different, there is not bodily harm involved and its only a possesion.

[kitten]

I also think the government and of course, society - the people in it, are responsible for creating and ensuring a safe environment where these sort of concerns, being wary that people will take serious advantage, aren't needed. therefore as I already said, although its not the governments, or taxpayers, fault that they were raped per se, it does go towards repairing the damage that shouldnt have been there. the car insurance one is different, there is not bodily harm involved and its only a possesion.

 

I totally agree with you about how things should be. Unfortunately, that is not how things actually are. Our whole criminal compensation system is a complete mess. There are (quite trivial) set amounts for an eye, leg, hand, finger etc. and (AFAIK) they don't take much (if any) account of psychological damage. Within the system the degree of negligence of the victim is also taken into account.

 

FWIW, my opinion is that there shouldn't be any 'compensation' as such at all. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should ignore the victims hurt by crimes; in fact, I mean just the opposite. i.e. society should look after them according to their actual individual needs, and not according to some 'tarrif' system. That way, there would be no need for any specific compensation.

 

Thus it should be a bit like the health service - when your leg is injured you get whatever treatment you need, you don't get a fixed sum of money to 'compensate' for your injury.

 

Kit

[Daisy]

I totally agree with you about how things should be. Unfortunately, that is not how things actually are. Our whole criminal compensation system is a complete mess. There are (quite trivial) set amounts for an eye, leg, hand, finger etc. and (AFAIK) they don't take much (if any) account of psychological damage. Within the system the degree of negligence of the victim is also taken into account.

 

FWIW, my opinion is that there shouldn't be any 'compensation' as such at all. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should ignore the victims hurt by crimes; in fact, I mean just the opposite. i.e. society should look after them according to their actual individual needs, and not according to some 'tarrif' system. That way, there would be no need for any specific compensation.

 

Thus it should be a bit like the health service - when your leg is injured you get whatever treatment you need, you don't get a fixed sum of money to 'compensate' for your injury.

 

Kit

 

Yeah I was suprised when I saw the news about that courtcase because I hadnt been aware that victims got compensation. a friend of mine was raped and I wasnt aware she got any money, but she may have. I am wondering now as she had had a drink but wasnt drunk. but in this case it definetly wasnt her fault in anyway plus she was only 17. back to topic, I assumed that a victim was taken care of by the NHS and other means if necessary as a matter of course. and surely that is the case anyway as the nhs is free, so the money is for some other purpose?

 

celia

Edited August 31, 2008 by Smarties

[kitten]

I assumed that a victim was taken care of by the NHS and other means if necessary as a matter of course. and surely that is the case anyway as the nhs is free, so the money is for some other purpose?

 

Well, I'm not sure about this, but as I understand it, the compensation is supposed to make up for losses not taken care of by other means. So, for example, if you lose a leg, you will get free medical treatment, possibly disability benefits, etc, but they won't be able to deal with all the 'inconvenience' of not having a leg. Compensation is supposed to cover you for the 'inconvenience' and other aspects not totally covered by other things. Of course, it's totally inadequate and goes back to Anglo-Saxon times when the perpetrator could avoid blood feud by paying a compensation.

 

As you say, if society were to provide all the medical, psychological, social backup required, what would the compensation be used for? I suppose it might be considered part of the psychological aid - e.g. buy yourself something nice to cheer you up?

 

That's why I think it shouldn't be needed in a proper, caring society. However, we live in an increasingly 'compensation culture' and people now feel that they are being deprived of their rights if they don't get compensation. But how much money would be required to make someone really feel better about being raped?

 

Kit

[Tipdin]

ABSOLUTELY!

 

I raised six kids, and let me tell you, I was (rightfully) held accountable for their actions. Too many parents refuse to accept responsibility for the actions of their children.

 

One of the biggest sorrows I have is seeing so few people actually claiming responsibility for their own behavior.