Innocent flirting or was I being a jerk?

[AFriendlyFace]

Hi all,

 

Just thought I'd get your opinions on something.

 

I just got home from Starbucks. While there I had a lovely time flirting with the guy behind the counter. Anyway, after I got my drink I took a seat and began reading. A little while later the guy came to clean up my section of the store and started chatting with me again. We continued flirting. Next, he asks what I had planned for this weekend.

 

I'm actually just getting over being sick, so apart from church tomorrow and my regular Sunday socializing with my gay church friends (which I do every week) I don't have plans (which also happens to be the way I wanted it), so I simply answered that I planned to have a nice quiet, relaxing weekend. So then he says, "oh yeah, me too. I'm off the next couple of days and I don't have plans. Just thought I'd relax or something."

 

At that point, based on the way he was saying it, I could tell that he wanted me to ask him out. I mean it was a logical progression from the flirting and we'd just established that we were both free. However, I did not ask him out.

 

I was really only interested in a little casual flirting. Also, while I was having a nice time chatting with him, I wasn't really that interested to begin with. Primarily though, I'm just not interested in seeing anyone right now.

 

So I just casually changed the subject and quit flirting.

 

 

Anyway my question is: Was what I did wrong? Was I obligated to ask him out at that point? Should I have avoided flirting in the first place knowing that I didn't intend for anything to come of it?

 

thoughts and opinions?

 

-Kevin

[Cynical Romantic]

Nah. If you'd asked him out despite not being interested, that would've been mean. But a little innocent flirting doesn't make you a jerk. It just makes you... someone who likes to keep your skills sharp. (Take it from a woman; we do that kind of thing all the time... )

[Tiger]

Kevin, flirting doesn't necessarily express a genuine interest. You never have an obligation to ask a guy out just because you flirted with him. That would mean a whole lot of trouble for most of us, especially those of use who are shameless flirts, not that I have ever been known to flirt shamelessly.

[AFriendlyFace]

Thanks guys

 

 

As it happens I have asked guys out simply because I felt like it would have been rude not to. It's always ultimately gotten me into more trouble, so I think you're right.

[Krista]

Kevin, it's alright to flirt. Flirting is innocent and fun and really doesn't show any higher level of interest. Things do progress from flirting, but like every other conversation it can end with nothing further taking place.

 

If I went out with every guy I ever flirted with.. well... there wouldn't be nice things said about me.. haha.

[NaperVic]

Anyway my question is: Was what I did wrong? Was I obligated to ask him out at that point? Should I have avoided flirting in the first place knowing that I didn't intend for anything to come of it?

 

thoughts and opinions?

 

While you are under no obligation to to ask anyone out, I don't think you should have flirted with him if you weren't interested.

 

You were being a tease and you probably made the guy feel bad.

Edited August 17, 2008 by NaperVic

[AFriendlyFace]

While you are under no obligation to to ask anyone out, I don't think you should have flirted with him if you weren't interested.

 

You were being a tease and you probably made the guy feel bad.

 

Well I definitely didn't mean to do that

 

 

It seemed like he was having fun too. I do take your point though

[Tiger]

 

Well I definitely didn't mean to do that

 

 

It seemed like he was having fun too. I do take your point though

Kevin, don't beat yourself up. If your intention was to hurt him, you wouldn't have started this thread. He was flirting in his own right, knowing full well that he may or may not get what he wants. Things are not always cut and dry. Chances are he's not thinking about it too much. Besides, you can always go back there and make sure he's okay. He may have just figured you're a natural flirt and probably isn't hurt or anything. I mean, if he were the type that "fell in love" that fast, you'd have a stalker by now. And Vic... don't try to make Kevin feel anymore guilty than he already feels.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Tiger

[Benji]

Hi all,

 

Just thought I'd get your opinions on something.

 

I just got home from Starbucks. While there I had a lovely time flirting with the guy behind the counter. Anyway, after I got my drink I took a seat and began reading. A little while later the guy came to clean up my section of the store and started chatting with me again. We continued flirting. Next, he asks what I had planned for this weekend.

 

I'm actually just getting over being sick, so apart from church tomorrow and my regular Sunday socializing with my gay church friends (which I do every week) I don't have plans (which also happens to be the way I wanted it), so I simply answered that I planned to have a nice quiet, relaxing weekend. So then he says, "oh yeah, me too. I'm off the next couple of days and I don't have plans. Just thought I'd relax or something."

 

At that point, based on the way he was saying it, I could tell that he wanted me to ask him out. I mean it was a logical progression from the flirting and we'd just established that we were both free. However, I did not ask him out.

 

I was really only interested in a little casual flirting. Also, while I was having a nice time chatting with him, I wasn't really that interested to begin with. Primarily though, I'm just not interested in seeing anyone right now.

 

So I just casually changed the subject and quit flirting.

 

 

Anyway my question is: Was what I did wrong? Was I obligated to ask him out at that point? Should I have avoided flirting in the first place knowing that I didn't intend for anything to come of it?

 

thoughts and opinions?

 

-Kevin

 

..................Come one Kevin!!! You of all people, know very well that flirting does not have to lead anywhere else other than flirting!! S_it!! 10 % of 10%??

[Graeme]

Kevin, why do you feel that it had to be you who asked him out? He left the option up to you, and you acted appropriately. If he really wanted to go out with you, he would have asked you out. I think he was open to the idea of going out with you, but wasn't sure if you were. The way he did it put the ball in your court and you acted the way you wanted to. He may have been disappointed, but you weren't a jerk.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Graeme

[kitten]

Okay, this is just my personal opinion and not a criticism of Kevin, whom I like & respect...

 

I believe that flirting when you don't even have the possibility of a potential interest in the other person is very wrong and that it can be very cruel to send out deliberately deceptive signals. Basically, it's like lying to someone for fun and just a different way of pulling a 'practical joke' on someone.

 

It's quite possible that the person on the receiving end of this 'joke' may have their feelings crushed when they realise you were not actually interested and just playing mind games with them. Yes, you can say it was obviously not serious. You can blame the victim for not having a sense of humour or for not being socially aware enough to realise it was just a game. But aren't they the same sort of excuses that all practical jokers give to defend their cruelty?

 

Kit

[MikeL]

Kevin, don't beat yourself up. If your intention was to hurt him, you wouldn't have started this thread. He was flirting in his own right, knowing full well that he may or may not get what he wants.

Or, in Kevin's case may have gotten more than he expected.

[NaperVic]

And Vic... don't try to make Kevin feel anymore guilty than he already feels.

 

Kevin asked a question and I replied honestly.

 

So Tim... if someone posted a picture of themselves, something really tight, that pinched at their body and made them look like the Michelin Man, and asked the question 'Does this outfit make me look fat?'

 

How would you respond?

Edited August 17, 2008 by NaperVic

[Benji]

Okay, this is just my personal opinion and not a criticism of Kevin, whom I like & respect...

 

I believe that flirting when you don't even have the possibility of a potential interest in the other person is very wrong and that it can be very cruel to send out deliberately deceptive signals. Basically, it's like lying to someone for fun and just a different way of pulling a 'practical joke' on someone.

 

It's quite possible that the person on the receiving end of this 'joke' may have their feelings crushed when they realise you were not actually interested and just playing mind games with them. Yes, you can say it was obviously not serious. You can blame the victim for not having a sense of humour or for not being socially aware enough to realise it was just a game. But aren't they the same sort of excuses that all practical jokers give to defend their cruelty?

 

Kit

 

 

...................I disagree, they were both flirting, personally I have always thought flirting was a high form of flattery, and if anything it would make my day. If the 'other' person were to take offense, why engage?

[kitten]

...................I disagree, they were both flirting, personally I have always thought flirting was a high form of flattery, and if anything it would make my day. If the 'other' person were to take offense, why engage?

 

In the particular case Kevin described, yes, they were apparently both flirting. However, my stated opinion was of flirting in general, not of that particular case.

 

Usually one person starts the 'flirt', or has the first flirt, or however one describes it, as must be rare for two people to start any behaviour simultaneously. If the other person takes offence then presumably they won't flirt back, but they are already offended, so what do you expect them to do? Punch the offender?

 

Flirting can be a good way of showing interest without getting too serious. If people flirt when they have no interest then how do you know when they are interested?

 

People who flirt without being interested not only risk hurting the people they are misleading but effectively take away, or at least debase, a means by which genuine person might show interest. So the genune person has to wonder how to indicate an interest without flirting?

 

You say you are flattered if people flirt with you. Do you always assume they are not genuinely interested, or that they are? If you assume they aren't genuine then there is no reason to feel flattered because they are effectively lying to you. If you assume they are genuine and you flirt back at them when you aren't genuine then you risk hurting their feelings.

 

Before you play mind games by flirting with people you should make sure that the other person knows the rules of the game. That's why I think that, unless you are genuinely interested, it is bad to flirt with people you don't know well. Maybe your friends can tell that you're just playing, but how can a stranger tell?

 

Playing mind games, like playing practical jokes, can be fun for the people doing it, but it can be hurtful for the person on the receiving end.

 

Kit

[Benji]

In the particular case Kevin described, yes, they were apparently both flirting. However, my stated opinion was of flirting in general, not of that particular case.

 

Usually one person starts the 'flirt', or has the first flirt, or however one describes it, as must be rare for two people to start any behaviour simultaneously. If the other person takes offence then presumably they won't flirt back, but they are already offended, so what do you expect them to do? Punch the offender?

 

Flirting can be a good way of showing interest without getting too serious. If people flirt when they have no interest then how do you know when they are interested?

 

People who flirt without being interested not only risk hurting the people they are misleading but effectively take away, or at least debase, a means by which genuine person might show interest. So the genune person has to wonder how to indicate an interest without flirting?

 

You say you are flattered if people flirt with you. Do you always assume they are not genuinely interested, or that they are? If you assume they aren't genuine then there is no reason to feel flattered because they are effectively lying to you. If you assume they are genuine and you flirt back at them when you aren't genuine then you risk hurting their feelings.

 

Before you play mind games by flirting with people you should make sure that the other person knows the rules of the game. That's why I think that, unless you are genuinely interested, it is bad to flirt with people you don't know well. Maybe your friends can tell that you're just playing, but how can a stranger tell?

 

Playing mind games, like playing practical jokes, can be fun for the people doing it, but it can be hurtful for the person on the receiving end.

 

Kit

 

 

.......Actually, it would be rare for me to be the one that initiates any flirting. Freindly bantering is more my par, I'm guessing you have been on the recieving end of flirtation and was hurt by it. Sorry if that happened to you. I understand your position on this and respect it, but how will you ever know if someone is being serious if you reject anothers advances forehandedly?

[AFriendlyFace]

Well, I'm definitely more like one of the people who feels that being flirted with is flattering. However, I'm very glad that Vic and Kit were honest with me, and I think it's definitely the case that not everyone is the same and what is good for one person may not be good for another. I think that's one of the things that makes life so complicated. If I randomly walked into a room and started flirting with someone who enjoyed it, then we can both walk away happier and without any hurt feelings. If I randomly walked into a room and flirted with someone who took it as dishonest then that person may end up feeling disappointed or hurt and I'll end up feeling guilty. So in one scenario everyone wins, in the other no one does. I really have no idea which scenario I lived through last night.

 

I'm sure he is over it, and even if he didn't enjoy it I doubt it was a major disappointment. I would also assume that rather than thinking I was playing mind games with him he would have concluded that I was too shy to initiate the asking out or that he had misread my signals, or that I hadn't picked up on his. Those would be the sorts of things I would assume in his place....but then as we've established everyone's different so I guess it's hard to say.

 

I do know that I'm perhaps a bit too flirtatious because while the majority of the time nothing bad comes of it and everyone ends happy, I have occasionally gotten myself into situations in which the person became more serious and seemed to have inferred a stronger meaning than was meant. This has been the minority of my experiences with flirting, but it does trouble me when it occurs, so I probably need to learn to pick up on those cues and back it off sooner before it gets to that level...or indeed not partake at all if there's a chance of a major miscommunication.

 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback guys

 

-Kevin

Edited August 17, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[rknapp]

You don't HAVE to ask out every guy you flirt mutually with. You had an interest in him, but not enough to go on a date. Besides, if he really wanted to go out with you then he should have asked YOU, ya big jerk! lol j/k

[Benji]

You don't HAVE to ask out every guy you flirt mutually with. You had an interest in him, but not enough to go on a date. Besides, if he really wanted to go out with you then he should have asked YOU, ya big jerk! lol j/k

 

 

........i could not have said it better!!

[Razor]

Hi all,

 

Just thought I'd get your opinions on something.

 

I just got home from Starbucks. While there I had a lovely time flirting with the guy behind the counter. Anyway, after I got my drink I took a seat and began reading. A little while later the guy came to clean up my section of the store and started chatting with me again. We continued flirting. Next, he asks what I had planned for this weekend.

 

I'm actually just getting over being sick, so apart from church tomorrow and my regular Sunday socializing with my gay church friends (which I do every week) I don't have plans (which also happens to be the way I wanted it), so I simply answered that I planned to have a nice quiet, relaxing weekend. So then he says, "oh yeah, me too. I'm off the next couple of days and I don't have plans. Just thought I'd relax or something."

 

At that point, based on the way he was saying it, I could tell that he wanted me to ask him out. I mean it was a logical progression from the flirting and we'd just established that we were both free. However, I did not ask him out.

 

I was really only interested in a little casual flirting. Also, while I was having a nice time chatting with him, I wasn't really that interested to begin with. Primarily though, I'm just not interested in seeing anyone right now.

 

So I just casually changed the subject and quit flirting.

 

 

Anyway my question is: Was what I did wrong? Was I obligated to ask him out at that point? Should I have avoided flirting in the first place knowing that I didn't intend for anything to come of it?

 

thoughts and opinions?

 

-Kevin

 

 

You're never obligated to do anything no matter what anyone else wants you to do. Also, you probably made his day 'cause he had a sexy man like you flirting with him. It was a good deed.

[AFriendlyFace]

You're never obligated to do anything no matter what anyone else wants you to do. Also, you probably made his day 'cause he had a sexy man like you flirting with him. It was a good deed.

Aww

 

Thanks Jamie!

[Procyon]

What a depressing world we'd have if people didn't flirt unless they were seriously interested in someone.

 

Someone here said that it's usually one person initiating the flirting, and that's true, but usually the first smile (or whatever it is) is very open to interpretation so one has to respond for the flirting to go on. So, it takes two to tango. And if a guy (or girl) behind the counter in any shop were flirting with me, I'd definitely assume that it was nothing serious until proven otherwise.

 

There was a guy selling strawberries close to where I live last summer, and I think he flirted with basically every customer he had -- even the old, decrepit ladies of about 95 -- and when he did that he made you feel so good even though you knew he couldn't possibly fancy you. And it was nice to see the ladies going home with their rollators, happy and smiling and looking only 85.

[kitten]

What a depressing world we'd have if people didn't flirt unless they were seriously interested in someone.

 

Flirting is just a mild form of sexual harrassment. It puts pressure on the recipient to respond positively or be thought of as a killjoy.

 

What a depressing world we'd have if we couldn't sexually harrass people! It's all just a bit of fun. They don't have to respond, and in any case, we're not really serious about it it, so even if they do respond we'd just reject them.

 

It doesn't matter who we hurt as long as we don't have to live in a depressing world!

 

Yeah. Right.

 

Kit

[Procyon]

Flirting is just a mild form of sexual harrassment. It puts pressure on the recipient to respond positively or be thought of as a killjoy.

 

What a depressing world we'd have if we couldn't sexually harrass people! It's all just a bit of fun. They don't have to respond, and in any case, we're not really serious about it it, so even if they do respond we'd just reject them.

 

It doesn't matter who we hurt as long as we don't have to live in a depressing world!

 

Yeah. Right.

 

Kit

 

Um, I don't really view a smile and a wink of the eye as something explicitly sexual, and certainly not as harrassment. And I would never take offence if someone didn't respond to my smiling at them... In my experience flirting was usually meant as something genuinely nice, such as the example I gave.

[kitten]

Um, I don't really view a smile and a wink of the eye as something explicitly sexual, and certainly not as harrassment. And I would never take offence if someone didn't respond to my smiling at them... In my experience flirting was usually meant as something genuinely nice, such as the example I gave.

 

Three definitions of flirting:

To make playfully romantic or sexual overtures

to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions

playful behavior intended to arouse sexual interest

 

To me, those definitions imply something sexual. I'm not sure exactly how overt it is. Probably not as overt as 'fancy a shag?'. How overt does it have to be before it becomes inappropriate? Or goes on to become harrassment? Certainly, for me it is inappropriate if a stranger behaves that way toward me.

 

That, however, wasn't the real point of my previous post, and it appears that my attempts at subtle satire were a miserable failure. So I guess I should be blunt. My real point was that the decision as to the acceptability of a certain behaviour should not be made based on whether or not some people might feel the world would be depressing without that behaviour.

 

Thus, I'm sure that some people would find the world less depressing if they could sexually harrass people whenever they want to. Personally, I think that the world would be less depressing if I could just take money from people who had more than I had.

 

So, to put it bluntly, saying that the world would be more depressing without flirting has neither practical nor moral validity.

 

Kit