Homosexuality is Abnormal

[MikeL]

I recommend you listen to NPR's interview with Shankar Vedantam about his new book The Hidden Brain. The audio recording lasts approximately 8 minutes and heterosexuality vs. homosexuality is discussed about 3

[hh5]

so lets go ahead and show them heterosexuals are bad!!!

[thatboyChase]

I think its up to the parents to teach. Or correct them if they say something off color.

[Kanaye]

I'm hoping in 10 years gay couples will be as normal as straight ones. Look how long blacks were unexcepted and discrimnated against and now they are accepted as normal as everyone else. I hope that will apply to gays as well, and soon.

[Graeme]

Based on my own experiences with pre-school kids, they are remarkably non-judgmental on differences. My boys both went to a preschool and encountered someone with dark skin (a child adopted from Africa) and one in a wheelchair who couldn't speak and could barely move. I never heard anything from either boy to indicate that these kids were wrong -- they were just different, and that difference didn't really matter.

 

Where a child can be judgemental is if something affects them (like if one of the kids doesn't share), or if their parents show strong judgemental behaviour, which they pick up.

[JamesSavik]

>>Homosexuality is Abnormal

 

Yeah, well "normal" lives in a fookin' trailer park and thinks wrestling is real. Normal is mediocre. Normal is average. Normal is a bloke with hairy plams and acne on his back and arse. Normal is a crackhead smoking a rock and jerking off in a junk car. Normal is a hooker with six kinds of clap and a pimp named Leroy. Normal is a republican senator on a business trip that hasn't touched his wife in a decade trying to do the nasty in an air port crapper. Normal is a shitload of things I'm glad I'm not a part of.

 

So take your normal and shove it somewhere dark and smelly you wanker.

[Graeme]

Sorry, James, but I have to disagree with you again What you've described in many of your statements is the norm, not normal. The norm is average. Exceptional is still normal, even if it's not the norm

 

<<deleted comment about politicians being abnormal, not normal, as this is the Lounge, not the Soapbox >>

[Y_B]

The difference between racial and sexuality prejudice is that racial prejudice isn't unanimous while sexuality is. A black man will not be discriminated against in Africa, neither will a Hispanic be in Latin America. Each ethnicity has a home and holds a significant portion of the world population, but that isn't true for homosexuals. Homosexuality is out of the "norm" no matter where you are, or who you are. That is not to say it is any lesser or greater than heterosexuality and vice versa, but it is definitely not a "regular" phenomenon. It'll be interesting to see how things go years from now, but as far as I'm concerned, I have no reason to expect the world to see gays eye-to-eye anytime soon.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Yang Bang

[NightOwl88]

I agree with Graeme, I'm not saying that young children don't form prejudices early in life but I think its highly subject, it depends on the surrounding culture, parental influance and the childs experiance in interacations with with people that cause's it. I also think children are more aware then we give them credit for. Growing up I was never exposed to anything gay either good or bad. I mean I didn't want to be gay because my brother always made fun of gay people but I didn't have problem with homosexuals.

 

I don't really see Homosexuality as abnormal and I don't think sexuality itself is subjective or environmental. Homosexuality is so widespread, and has been for centuries, that it can't be anything but normal. Its well documented that homosexuality was practiced and tolerated in ancient Greece, Rome, and Britain (pre-christian influence) and probably even further then that. Before the fall of Ancient Matrifocal cultures it was common place for young men and women alike to have same sex relationships before marriage.

[MikeL]

Based on my own experiences with pre-school kids, they are remarkably non-judgmental on differences. My boys both went to a preschool and encountered someone with dark skin (a child adopted from Africa) and one in a wheelchair who couldn't speak and could barely move. I never heard anything from either boy to indicate that these kids were wrong -- they were just different, and that difference didn't really matter.

 

Where a child can be judgemental is if something affects them (like if one of the kids doesn't share), or if their parents show strong judgemental behaviour, which they pick up.

 

Graeme, neither of your sons volunteered a negative comment about their classmates. The studies behind this book were different. Researchers showed young children pictures of a black and a white child and asked them which was good and which was bad.

 

The difference between racial and sexuality prejudice is that racial prejudice isn't unanimous while sexuality is. A black man will not be discriminated against in Africa, neither will a Hispanic be in Latin America. Each ethnicity has a home and holds a significant portion of the world population, but that isn't true for homosexuals. Homosexuality is out of the "norm" no matter where you are, or who you are. That is not to say it is any lesser or greater than heterosexuality and vice versa, but it is definitely not a "regular" phenomenon. It'll be interesting to see how things go years from now, but as far as I'm concerned, I have no reason to expect the world to see gays eye-to-eye anytime soon.

 

Very well said, Yang Bang. Children see very few gay couples. Without being told or asked what they think, they form the opinion (or feeling) that heterosexual couples are the norm.

 

How do we change that?

[Graeme]

Graeme, neither of your sons volunteered a negative comment about their classmates. The studies behind this book were different. Researchers showed young children pictures of a black and a white child and asked them which was good and which was bad.

And there's the problem. That's an extremely bad and biased way of questioning kids. To start with, it tells the child that one of the two is good and one is bad -- at that age most wouldn't be clever enough to respond 'neither'. By asking which was good and which was bad tells the child that they HAVE to pick one as good and one as bad.

 

Since there are so many fairy stories where white is good and black is bad (most Disney movies, for example, have the bad guy wearing dark colours), most children would respond to that question with white is good and black is bad... for no other reason than they believe they HAVE to pick one as good and one as bad and fairy tales are the only real source of guidance they have (unless their parents make their views plain).

 

I remember hearing about sexual abuse cases that were corrupted by the questioning of the children. They showed the child a doll and ask where they had been touched. And kept asking until the child pointed to the genitals. By continually asking, the child was thinking that they had to have another answer... and sooner or later, because they've already pointed everywhere else, they'll point to the genitals.

 

It is extremely difficult to analyse the thoughts of young children because questioning them can easily result in the child giving the answers they think the adult wants, not necessarily what they think themselves.

 

The only negative comments my boys gave about other kids at pre-school were regarding other kids being too rough, or taking toys off someone, or otherwise not sharing -- the things that pre-school kids consider to be important.

[Mark Arbour]

And there's the problem. That's an extremely bad and biased way of questioning kids. To start with, it tells the child that one of the two is good and one is bad -- at that age most wouldn't be clever enough to respond 'neither'. By asking which was good and which was bad tells the child that they HAVE to pick one as good and one as bad.

 

Since there are so many fairy stories where white is good and black is bad (most Disney movies, for example, have the bad guy wearing dark colours), most children would respond to that question with white is good and black is bad... for no other reason than they believe they HAVE to pick one as good and one as bad and fairy tales are the only real source of guidance they have (unless their parents make their views plain).

 

I remember hearing about sexual abuse cases that were corrupted by the questioning of the children. They showed the child a doll and ask where they had been touched. And kept asking until the child pointed to the genitals. By continually asking, the child was thinking that they had to have another answer... and sooner or later, because they've already pointed everywhere else, they'll point to the genitals.

 

It is extremely difficult to analyse the thoughts of young children because questioning them can easily result in the child giving the answers they think the adult wants, not necessarily what they think themselves.

 

The only negative comments my boys gave about other kids at pre-school were regarding other kids being too rough, or taking toys off someone, or otherwise not sharing -- the things that pre-school kids consider to be important.

 

A guided response, as it were. That's the problem with many studies, not just this one.

[KiwiShadow]

It's an interesting topic but regardless of what is taught in school, conforming to heterosexuality is always going to be seen as the 'right' thing to do for younger kids. On the other hand, I do agree that in general, kids aren't as judgmental as teenagers or adults.

 

On the topic of being 'taught' to be sensitive, I recall when I was 7 and I used that old saying "easy peasy japaneasy" and my teacher said it was racist and that we should say "easy peasy lemon-squeasy" instead. I do think it's important for kids to be taught to have an open mind but they are going to pick up on what is said in passing in their environment.

 

In terms of homosexuality in the future, I think it's pretty safe to assume that much like the race issue, people are slowly going to accept us as normal. Of course this is just my opinion

[Mark Arbour]

Steering this a little differently, what should kids think/be taught about homosexuality. Should heterosexuality be considered "the norm"?

 

Personally, I find this discussion intriguing when I think that It was only 27 years ago that homosexuality was taken off the DSM manual as a psychological disorder.

[Graeme]

Steering this a little differently, what should kids think/be taught about homosexuality. Should heterosexuality be considered "the norm"?

Personally, we told the boys when they were younger that while most of the time a man and a woman would marry, sometimes it will be two men who marry, or two women. Everyone's different and you can't expect everyone to do or like the same things.

 

I will admit, though, that on this particular topic I'm biased

[Mark Arbour]

Personally, we told the boys when they were younger that while most of the time a man and a woman would marry, sometimes it will be two men who marry, or two women. Everyone's different and you can't expect everyone to do or like the same things.

 

I will admit, though, that on this particular topic I'm biased

 

So heterosexuality is "the norm," but homosexuality is not an aberration, just a possible or acceptable alternative?

[KiwiShadow]

So heterosexuality is "the norm," but homosexuality is not an aberration, just a possible or acceptable alternative?

 

It sounds terrible but homosexuality is a minority so technically speaking, isn't heterosexuality the norm?

 

Edit: Re: Marks message: for those who don't know the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical manual of mental disorders - a mental disorder has to be in this book to be valid, the way I understand it.

[Graeme]

So heterosexuality is "the norm," but homosexuality is not an aberration, just a possible or acceptable alternative?

Yep!

 

One of our favourite phrases as parents is 'Everyone's different'. We keep emphasising to the boys that they can't assume that everyone does or likes the same things. It's usually on subjects like TV shows and food, but the concept is one we want to drill into them.

 

It sounds terrible but homosexuality is a minority so technically speaking, isn't heterosexuality the norm?

That's what Mark said Both are normal, but heterosexuality is the norm (the majority). It is important not to confuse norm and normal. The best way to get through to someone is to tell them that being righthanded is the norm, but being lefthanded is normal. Then state that heterosexuality is the norm, but homosexuality is normal. Most people will get it....

Edited January 27, 2010 by Graeme

[MikeL]

That's what Mark said Both are normal, but heterosexuality is the norm (the majority). It is important not to confuse norm and normal. The best way to get through to someone is to tell them that being righthanded is the norm, but being lefthanded is normal. Then state that heterosexuality is the norm, but homosexuality is normal. Most people will get it....

Being left-handed was not always considered normal and the English language reflects this.

 

Left-handers were once considered (at best) severely disturbed or (at worst) agents of Satan. If the Spanish Inquisition found out you were left-handed, your chances of being questioned, tortured, and/or exterminated were immensely enhanced. Nearly all languages contain expressions that reflect the ancient prejudice against left-handers. The word sinister, with all its evil connotations, is simply the Latin word for left; our much more complimentary word dexterous, on the other hand, comes from the Latin for right. Is it a coincidence that right also means correct? And it’s worth thinking about that there are no left angles, only right ones, no matter which way they turn.

~ Kitty Burns Florey, Script & Scribble, The Rise and Fall of Handwriting,

Melville House Publishing Company, Brooklyn, NY, 2009, p. 91

Edited January 27, 2010 by MikeL

[JamesSavik]

 

In Mississippi, this guy is normal.

 

I don't want to be normal. I hope for better.

[Graeme]

To follow-on from MikeL's commentary on being left-handed, I can recommend the essay by Grasshopper on being gay AND left-handed

 

http://www.themailcrew.com/grasshopper.html

[MikeL]

To follow-on from MikeL's commentary on being left-handed, I can recommend the essay by Grasshopper on being gay AND left-handed

 

http://www.themailcrew.com/grasshopper.html

Obama is left-handed. I don't suppose that's significant...he just wasn't on Grasshopper's list.

[Graeme]

Obama is left-handed. I don't suppose that's significant...he just wasn't on Grasshopper's list.

Grasshopper's essay was, I believe, written before Obama was elected to the Senate.

[Arpeggio]

So wait... because I'm left handed and gay, I must be super normal? Um....

 

As for 3 year olds, my little brother doesn't seem to realize that homosexuality is wrong and he actually knows what it means.

[W_L]

Kids change what they believe after puberty in many cases, so they might end up a best man at their gay friend's wedding

 

I think childhood experiences help create the reality of what a Child will become, but it is not the sum of a child. No child is born to dislike homosexuals or dark skinned people or any other grouping of humanity. We learn to hate from our experiences over time.

 

I don't put much grains of salt in this study either.