What makes Great sci-fi?

[W_L]

I thought about the topic for a while now; I just re-watched the Stargate SG1 episode Fifth Race, which still gives me goosebumps for the idea of human potential.

 

When I am writing sci-fi, I see a large scope of human endeavors and our innate potential along with our vices and current issues.

 

When I was a younger, I thought what made good sci-fi was merely current social exploration, but there is much more to the idea than merely human issues. I think many sci-fi viewers have changed their attitude along with me during the time. In the 90's, when I grew up on Star Trek TNG and DS9, I thought that was what sci-fi was. Babylon 5 also approached the concepts differently with a military theme.

 

Yet, Great Sci-fi has always had a trans-human quality to it. There's something about the nature of man now and the nature of man's potential that makes science fiction last.

 

What do you guys think? What makes a good sci-fi last through the test of time?

[JamesSavik]

I know what makes it suck balls. Any sci-fi story/film with a cute kid, dumb robot or a smart dog is doomed to be a shitty sci-fi channel B-movie.

 

Sci-fi fans want a plausible scenario. If you can go faster than light, they want to know how. If the earth is falling apart they want to know why. (Hint- heating the earth's core with solar neutrinos will get you beaten to death by geeks wielding heavy physics books).

 

The best sci-fi has half its roots in science and the other half in the human condition. Ignore either one at your peril.

[ricky]

 

Sci-fi fans want a plausible scenario.

 

The best sci-fi has half its roots in science and the other half in the human condition. Ignore either one at your peril.

 

Well you are close. You just have polarity issues. What sells is believable fantasy with a touch of realism. The old adage of the best lies containing a little truth. Oh and it must also have a cute kid or a robot. I can skip the dog too. It's a bitch to walk them in space. Everyone wants to be a young explorer or adventurer.

 

Nobody wants to see a dry as a popcorn fart piece of docu-political agenda.

 

Sci-fi is the ultimate escape.

[JamesSavik]

 

This is Boxey and Muffit from the original Battlestar Galactica which embody the entire cute kid, smart dog and dumb robot paradigm. The sad part is that these elements were in place by the third episode. After a spectacular beginning, BSG morphed into the wretched garbage that was BSG 1980 and died like a dog after six episodes.

 

Don't get me wrong. Everybody loved Boxey. The problem was that focusing on him was inappropriate and idiotic in telling such a dark story.

 

It also shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the story. Here we have the networks trying to make a kids show out of a nuclear Pearl Harbor scenario which had wiped out human civilization with the exception of the few people on the ships of the fleet.

 

That dog won't hunt. It didn't work the shows writing deteriorated with every episode. By BSG 1980 it was clear that the writers and the network had no idea what they were doing.

 

When BSG was remade in 2003, it worked because the story was as dark as it needed to be. The villains were complex with confusing motives and not merely malfunctioning toasters.

[W_L]

From my point of view, the original BSG series didn't deal enough with character psychology and their human traits. I would've loved to see Boxey become a drug addict, get into a few fights, or at the very least show some kind of irrational emotional reaction.

 

For kids to be taken seriously as part of a dark sci-fi series, you got to make them human and do things that are both wrong and understandable. That's where I think the original BSG had many issues.

 

There has to be consequences for the plot to be believable. Star Trek slowly fell into disarray due to this issue, ending in what amounted to a complete reboot with the new Star Trek Movie, because they couldn't work in the consequences within a Utopian setting.

[Toast]

Why am I answering this. Here goes a try. I like world building and words that spin me into that world. I want characters that I connect with and are not one dimensional. Maybe I enjoy them because I don't agree or like them. I like all the directions sci-fli often leaps off into. Fantasy yes, hard science yes. Romance yes. The maybe, yes. The impossible yes. I like that they often come in multiples of three and fours and fives. I still love David Gerrold's The War Against the Chtorr Series even though he never finished it. And it has been years of waiting. Good sci-fi is just great and you know it when you read it because it hits you right in your imagination. And I like stories that are not afraid of exploring human avenues.

 

 

[ricky]

 

 

such a dark story.

 

 

 

There was supposed to be a story?

 

And look, if it wasn't for boxy then we wouldn't even have Caprica eh?

[W_L]

There was supposed to be a story?

 

And look, if it wasn't for boxy then we wouldn't even have Caprica eh?

 

Poor boxey, the kid carries so much weight on his shoulders.

 

Noah Hathaway

 

His biography makes me question his sexuality a little, the dance instructor thing is interesting

 

It is also another consideration that Battlestar Galactica the original series only lasted one season

[hh5]

Richard Hatch fought for the revival of BSG but I don't think he wanted this dark.

He has written some novels for BSG.

 

But the reality is the public love this dark genre.

Gosh this started as way back as Madd Max and Max Head Room.

 

Star Trek corrected this utopian society when I think rick Berman did "ST Next Gen"

The darkness was the borg.

Deep Space Nine - the cardassiens

Voyager - the borg

Then Enterprise they rewritten Roddenburys original work.

For the original trekkers they know what it is

but to attract the new audence a more darker Trek was made

 

I do wonder this Dark genre invites encourging a negative aspect of human society.

More rebellious, etc etc

Its seems to go in like a free for all - mafia - the bad vs the badder

look at caprica

 

As far as Boxey - there's a big craz for Noah in his teen years.

He really didn't get much of media career - just some sexual fire

Now if you look at him - he like justin timberlake - at tattooed

 

Anyway - good science fiction is a big arguement

Its like arguing "Hard Core Sci-Fi" vs "Soft Core Sci-Fi"

 

essentially Hard Core spits at Soft Core

ie: Dune the book is great but Dune the Movie sucked

 

iRobot - Well it was more like a short story for asimov

but now its just a Will Smith Movie

mmm another kinda of Dark genre

mmm sort of like disney is doing now with skyrunners

 

Dark Disney is coming

Mickey Mouse could be dropped or maybe Dark mouse will be the new thing

Media doing any thing to captilize on the market for the fast revenue

 

But the message every putting out into the world is anarkey(sp)

the complete opposite to utopia

 

No more happy endings.

Just lesser dark ending - to stand for Light

a darker ending - to stand for evil

 

But sinces its just all dark

there is no Light etc etc

 

Dec 21, 2012 - our society is to take a new path

its said it be the better path

but it didn't say we will take the darker path

if so then kick in revelation

The end of man - in favor of a new order

hehe a Dark Lord

 

if so then we will turn into all those dark creatures

living in darkness and fire and brimstone

 

-----------

 

To put another kink for the dark genre

Its more towards inciting a riot to the religious people (pay back)

hence fighting for when Church attacked Gays for seeing them as dark creatures of the devil

 

but put it another way its the Religious mafia vs the Dark Mafia

fighting over who gets the share of audience of $$$

 

--------

 

our society is right blended not black and white - all shades of gray

neither good nor evil

more like everyone at the end of the movie "Volcano"

everyone is covered in ash - nuclear winter.

[W_L]

The darkness of Sci-fi was to counter scientific excess; I think the best and most classic example of dark/light sci-fi goes to the 90's Outer Limits series.

 

The outer limits redefined our generation of science fiction and opened the world to technological issues with progress and human nature.

 

Here's one of my favorite episodes of the series:

 

The Final Appeals

 

The argument against science and for science are classic and something I really enjoyed. Theology has also begun to take more of presence in sci-fi, which was originally dominated by atheistic ideals. I really liked the Outer limits from so many levels.

[hh5]

The darkness of Sci-fi was to counter scientific excess; I think the best and most classic example of dark/light sci-fi goes to the 90's Outer Limits series.

 

The outer limits redefined our generation of science fiction and opened the world to technological issues with progress and human nature.

 

Here's one of my favorite episodes of the series:

 

The Final Appeals

 

The argument against science and for science are classic and something I really enjoyed. Theology has also begun to take more of presence in sci-fi, which was originally dominated by atheistic ideals. I really liked the Outer limits from so many levels.

 

What about speilbergs "Amazing Stories" and the new twilight zone??

 

Are there any evil atheistic? No god - No Spreme Being - I am my old self made man.

 

O.L. is still soft core sci-fi

Always get into a talk issue with my co-worker years ago

[W_L]

What about speilbergs "Amazing Stories" and the new twilight zone??

 

Are there any evil atheistic? No god - No Spreme Being - I am my old self made man.

 

O.L. is still soft core sci-fi

Always get into a talk issue with my co-worker years ago

 

Amazing stories was before my time; I watched the old episodes, they were more geared towards fantasy and paranormal than science. I liked it, but thought the show didn't explore science fiction enough.

 

As to the new Twillight zone, basically I will be alittle bias on it, it sucked (That's just a little bias, I can be even more venomous about the new series). Sterling would be spinning in his grave with what the producers created.

 

Outer limits was a show based on science as its premise, while it did delve into the realms of fantasy and the paranormal on occasion; it's core was science.

[JamesSavik]

Regenesis is a Canadian sci-fi show that focused on the cutting edge of biotechnology. It had the guts to go dark but it's writers politicized EVERYTHING to the point to where every episode went like this:

 

drunk idealist genius doctor has a great idea

 

Washington might object to his methods and pull his funding

 

drunk idealistic doctor thinks of another ingenious way to work around Washington

 

Problem solved

 

By season II the formula was so well established and the America bashing so loud and pronounced, I lost any and all interest.

 

Hint: If you are writing a show and you want it to score in a big market, don't talk shit about that market every 5 minutes. Piss them off bad enough and even the tin hat brigade will give you the finger.

[W_L]

Here's an episode with even darker undertones for computer technology and the possibilities of linking people via a global network for information (a fun idea about the future of the internet and our technological society):

 

Stream of Consciousness

[x Trevor x]

I've never really been a sci-fi fan until I discovered the show Roswell, which might I add is a very good show inspired by the supposed 1947 crash. What attracted me to science fiction and that show in particular is that they were aliens and looked like humans, like normal teenagers living ordinary teenage lives or so they tried but they could never be normal. I really like the idea that there could be something bigger out there, something bigger than this earth and our people, something that we can't see or touch but one day may see and learn. I think it just makes life more interesting. Some science fiction could actually happen and I think that is what separates science fiction from fantasy in some cases.

[x Trevor x]

I've never really been a sci-fi fan until I discovered the show Roswell, which might I add is a very good show inspired by the supposed 1947 crash. What attracted me to science fiction and that show in particular is that they were aliens and looked like humans, like normal teenagers living ordinary teenage lives or so they tried but they could never be normal. I really like the idea that there could be something bigger out there, something bigger than this earth and our people, something that we can't see or touch but one day may see and learn. I think it just makes life more interesting. Some science fiction could actually happen and I think that is what separates science fiction from fantasy in some cases.

[W_L]

I've never really been a sci-fi fan until I discovered the show Roswell, which might I add is a very good show inspired by the supposed 1947 crash. What attracted me to science fiction and that show in particular is that they were aliens and looked like humans, like normal teenagers living ordinary teenage lives or so they tried but they could never be normal. I really like the idea that there could be something bigger out there, something bigger than this earth and our people, something that we can't see or touch but one day may see and learn. I think it just makes life more interesting. Some science fiction could actually happen and I think that is what separates science fiction from fantasy in some cases.

 

I remember Roswell, the show, very well. It was interesting premise that combined what I liked about teen drama and a little sci-fi in between. To be honest, other than the premise, it felt more like a fantasy show a lot due to the plot in the later seasons. The Alien powers were fun before they went overboard. The Sheriff character felt one note after the first season, probably due to the motivation behind him disappearing. I liked him, when he was anti-alien and seeking the truth.

 

Still you got to give Max and Liz much of the credit for keeping the show alive throughout the seasons, yeah I do enjoy hetero couplings if they have been hell and back (I also dreamed of Max and Michael a bit too, Can you blame me for wondering how alien teenage boys have gay sex ).

[Collegeguy1]

I always liked sci-fi movies that had time travel. Not sure why exactly. I also like stories with characters that have hidden identities (super heroes, time travelers, spies, etc.). I think that might have something to do with the fact that I can identify with having a hidden identity being a gay man that didn't come out until age 19 and I'm still not out to everybody. A good romance is always a plus. My favorite part of Star Trek Enterprise and my favorite episodes of the series involved the love interest between Trip and T'Pol. That was really a cute story . I think sci-fi appeals to a lot of people because it can give us a possible glimpse into the future and the potential that the human race has. The idea of a United Earth where poverty and war have been eliminated is quite pleasant, if a bit idyllic. It shows us who we are as a people: our strengths and our flaws. It shows us that we are not alone, which to me is a comforting thought. After all, it would be a pretty big waste of space if we were the only occupants in the universe.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Collegeguy1

[x Trevor x]

I remember Roswell, the show, very well. It was interesting premise that combined what I liked about teen drama and a little sci-fi in between. To be honest, other than the premise, it felt more like a fantasy show a lot due to the plot in the later seasons. The Alien powers were fun before they went overboard. The Sheriff character felt one note after the first season, probably due to the motivation behind him disappearing. I liked him, when he was anti-alien and seeking the truth.

 

Still you got to give Max and Liz much of the credit for keeping the show alive throughout the seasons, yeah I do enjoy hetero couplings if they have been hell and back (I also dreamed of Max and Michael a bit too, Can you blame me for wondering how alien teenage boys have gay sex ).

 

I actually liked Tess and Max together over Max and Liz for a heterosexual couple lol. Then again I tend to always pull for what a majority of people are against. Most people want the good guys to win and most of the time I end up pulling for the bad guys lol. Bu no I can't blame you for your dream lol makes me think now how awesome it would of been to have seen Max and Kyle get together. It would of been unexpected as much as Kyle hated Max in the beginning.

[W_L]

I actually liked Tess and Max together over Max and Liz for a heterosexual couple lol. Then again I tend to always pull for what a majority of people are against. Most people want the good guys to win and most of the time I end up pulling for the bad guys lol. Bu no I can't blame you for your dream lol makes me think now how awesome it would of been to have seen Max and Kyle get together. It would of been unexpected as much as Kyle hated Max in the beginning.

 

Part of me still thinks Kyle is gay, but I don't know why exactly. Probably too much slash fiction on him

 

Roswell highlights another aspect of sci-fi, history. The 1947 Roswell crash is famous now due to the large amount of press about the subject. Personally, I think it single-handed spawned most of modern science fiction, many of the modern sci-fi writers are UFO enthusiast or "believers". Sci-fi has part of its roots in history.

[x Trevor x]

Part of me still thinks Kyle is gay, but I don't know why exactly. Probably too much slash fiction on him

 

Roswell highlights another aspect of sci-fi, history. The 1947 Roswell crash is famous now due to the large amount of press about the subject. Personally, I think it single-handed spawned most of modern science fiction, many of the modern sci-fi writers are UFO enthusiast or "believers". Sci-fi has part of its roots in history.

 

It's probably the slash fiction. Kyle was Liz's boyfriend before Max came along. Though he never dated anyone else after that. Kyle and Tess had a flirty thing going on but they never actually dated and apart from the one episode where Kyle tried to kiss Tess he never made a move on her or any other woman like that the rest of the series. As far as I know anyway I could be wrong. I've never actually watched the entire series but I plan to get the series DVD set this month as a late birthday present for myself.

[Myr]

James, were you channeling JMS (creator of Babylon 5):

I know what makes it suck balls. Any sci-fi story/film with a cute kid, dumb robot or a smart dog is doomed to be a shitty sci-fi channel B-movie.

 

I think Babylon 5 actually hit the exact right combination. Great Sci-Fi is made by a strong story that is believable. The more times the watcher breaks continunity to go WTF?, the more likely you are to fail. I don't think I ever had more than 1 or 2 WTF's with Babylon 5.

 

Star Trek Enterprise? I was constantly going WTF? Usually because they had such a rich timeline to play with and they focus on time traveling and Archer's damn Beagle?

Star Trek Voyager was the same 3 stories over and over and over and over again.

 

The New Battlestar Galactica? Great story. But they shoved so much distracting T and A into that it turns me off completely. If I want porn, I'll watch porn. when I turn to Sci-Fi, I want a good Sci-Fi story.

 

As far as writing goes, I really like Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and the Ender's Shadows series. (the direct Ender sequels suck, except Ender in Exile). That had a strong story and was believable.

[W_L]

James, were you channeling JMS (creator of Babylon 5):

 

 

I think Babylon 5 actually hit the exact right combination. Great Sci-Fi is made by a strong story that is believable. The more times the watcher breaks continunity to go WTF?, the more likely you are to fail. I don't think I ever had more than 1 or 2 WTF's with Babylon 5.

 

Star Trek Enterprise? I was constantly going WTF? Usually because they had such a rich timeline to play with and they focus on time traveling and Archer's damn Beagle?

Star Trek Voyager was the same 3 stories over and over and over and over again.

 

The New Battlestar Galactica? Great story. But they shoved so much distracting T and A into that it turns me off completely. If I want porn, I'll watch porn. when I turn to Sci-Fi, I want a good Sci-Fi story.

 

As far as writing goes, I really like Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and the Ender's Shadows series. (the direct Ender sequels suck, except Ender in Exile). That had a strong story and was believable.

 

Ender's game was interesting; although, I am more interested in Asimov's Foundation series concepts than Scott Card's use of Heinlein's militaristic plots (Bugs are now a cliche in sci-fi ), which I do still enjoy. I use to like the militaristic stuff, but I have grown into liking stories with the bigger picture with cosmic significance on where we are all going and what we want for our future.

 

Battlestar Galactica had a really good premise up to season 3, when hell broke loose. The problem with Ronald D. Moore's style of sci-fi is not conceptual, he understands his concept well, but it comes to how the sci-fi story works together. Most of the TV/Movie writers in sci-fi today were former Star Trek writers, which you can actually see in their work and why Star Trek is both a pillar of Sci-fi and one of its deepest issues.

 

JMS' Babylon 5, a masterpiece of action, conspiracy, scientific mythology, and a human ethos, is more like a novel than a sci-fi show. Although, it has its own issues, season 5 will be the most forgettable and Crusade simply could not carry the premise.

 

Four questions of Babylon 5 will always be in my heart as I write my stories, basically I think they are the keystones of Sci-fi:

 

1. Who are you?

2. What do you want?

3. Why are you here?

3. Do have anything to live for?

[JamesSavik]

Growth only comes through chaos and conflict.

 

Only stagnation can come from the the Vorlon's obsessive introspection.

[Myr]

Understanding is a three-edged sword.

The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.