AlexLucid Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Granger needs a new mascot for his new ship. The rat-catching dog Ranger has long since disappeared so I nominate a tortoise. (Perhaps a female that might survive all the way to the Crimean War and get named Timothy of all things, gender-bending turtles.) From the wikipedia article: In spite of her name, Timothy was female; it was not properly known how to sex tortoises in the 19th century. This particular tortoise, the oldest 'veteran' of the Crimean War, survived until 2004. Almost long enough to live to see the next Crimean War? I'd never heard this bit of trivia until today. Brought a smile to my face. 2
Westie Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Your insight into the Indefatigable's construction was interesting, and awesome as usual. I find I am in one of those rare situations where I disagree with you, regarding the sentence highlighted above. While there are certainly anecdotal tales of ships being well-constructed in private yards, the general consensus I have noted is that the quality of construction at Royal yards was considerably higher. You mention that Agamemnon was built at the same yard. Nelson, who was (as you noted) a huge fan of his little battleship, was also compelled to note that she was often in need of a refit. This is also noted in the Wiki page on Agamemnon: I would be inclined to agree with you if we were talking the golden age of Plymouth, when it was overseen by Edmund Drummer, but by 1790's there was a huge amount of corruption in the Royal Dockyards. This would not be rectified until Earl St Vincent's "Commission of Enquiry" in 1802. By contrast, the private dockyards now had access to better wood and facilities, and were more efficient. Though yes, there was a tendency in places to try and cut corners, to save money, which at times lead to issues - it should be noted that again, this reputation is a hangover from an earlier era (though following the resurgance of the royal Dockyards in 1804 onwards, corrupt private dockyards would again become rampant). HMS Agamemnon is a case in point. On the face of it, so many refits does look bad. But it should be noted that even at the Battle of Ushant, this ship was badly damaged. Botched repair on top of botched repair (at Chatham dockyard) is not the fault of the original construction yard, even if they get the blame. Nor is it the dockyards fault when the ship had poor quality repair at Gibraltar (limited access to quality wood), or when the ship is sailed into rocks. It's my own personal view that the original dockyard gets some bad press for a ship that was badly treated and badly repaired time and again. Edited March 3, 2014 by Westie 1
sandrewn Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 I will not even try to comment on the abilities of the various royal and private naval yards (way beyond my pay grade). However I thought some of of my fellow Grangerites might like to see what HMS Valiant might in the end look like. Both of the following are references to HMS Indefatigable. The first is more pictorial. The second I found to be of real interest as it explained many questions I have had on sail terms and construction. Also for the comparison between cannon and caronnade, especially with regards to their ranges. Along with a variety of other points of interest. PELLEW, EXMOUTH - HMS INDEFATIGABLE The Illustrated Companion to Nelson's Navy - Nicholas Blake, Richard Lawrence - Google Books 1
Mark Arbour Posted March 4, 2014 Author Posted March 4, 2014 PELLEW, EXMOUTH - HMS INDEFATIGABLE Thanks so much for that link! The pictures were terrific. I guess I'm in a bitchy, contentious mood today, though, as I have some issues with the narrative that went with it. I'll vent below. Just don't take it personally; I'm directing my annoyance at the writer, not you. It is natural to ask at this point why all this trouble should be taken to make a ship less formidable than she was before. In understanding the motive for this alteration the central fact to be grasped is that the French had given up building vessels of this class at an earlier date than the English. Had the French still possessed a few sixty-fours, the Anson, Indefatigable and Magnanime would have been left unaltered in the hope of their encountering them. But the French had only ships of the line and frigates and smaller craft. This is truly nonsense. This writer assumes that ships actively sought out battles with ONLY their own kind of ship, and that simply isn't true. The history of these wars is replete with examples of ships of the line capturing frigates, sloops, brigs, etc. The Royal Navy would hardly have kept the 64s in service just in case they should encounter one of their French counterparts. Now, the reason why a sixty-four could not be allowed to meet a French seventy-four is obvious - the former would be blown out of the water. This is even more ridiculous. Navies of the Western World settled on the 74 gun two-decked design because it was deemed to be optimal. That did not mean that a 64 gun ship could not and did not engage 74 gun ships of the line. They were not that much less powerful, and you will find, in many of the major battles of this era, that a 64 gun ship of the line tackled a 74 (Think Agamemnon and Ca Ira). A Royal Navy captain who was in command of a 64, and evaded action with a French or Spanish 74, would have found himself court martialed, IMHO. But the reason why a sixty-four should not be allowed to pursue French frigates is of a more subtle kind. One consideration to be urged against such a policy was the disproportion of the means to the end. A sixty-four needed a crew of 500 men. To send such a ship to deal with frigates carrying some 300 men would be a waste of force. It would be the mistake of using a cannon to destroy one's neighbour's parrot. The three ships would between them take 600 men in excess of the proper number the work required, without making the desired result any the more certain. Contained in this largely incomprehensible paragraph is the reason that the Admiralty razeed the ships. It was more economical to operate a powerful frigate (with 300 men) than a ship of the line (with 600), if the extra firepower of the ship of the line wasn't needed. This argument has been stated first as the one most likely to appeal to the reader. It was probably the last consideration to strike the Admiralty of the day. The real obstacle to the use of the sixty-four as a cruiser was Pride. To send big ships to chase small ones was thought to be un-chivalrous, and - what was worse - undignified. Chivalry was far from dead at that time. But the refusal of a ship of the line to fire at a frigate was chivalrous only in part; the primary objection to it was Pride. Dignity only demanded an equality on paper - there was no objection to arming a frigate more heavily than the enemy's frigates - but a theoretical equality there had to be. For this reason the sixty-four had either to be reduced in force until roughly equal to a frigate, or crowded with guns until roughly equal to a ship of the line. As the latter operation was impossible the former had to be adopted. This is the most absurd paragraph at all. This was war, it was not a game, and while codes of honor were important, that did not preclude a larger ship from capturing a smaller ship. Sure, the dream of every captain was to fight a battle with his opponent of equal strength, ship to ship, but that didn't mean it happened all that often. There were almost always some size discrepancies. And if this idiot's theory is true, then how terribly unchivalrous for a squadron to capture a single ship. I think that perhaps the writer is confusing general operations and conventions with those in force during a fleet action, in which case certain rules did theoretically apply. As we saw at St. Vincent and the Nile, frigates were supposed to be left alone unless they initiated combat. 3
Westie Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Anyone interested in a more.... rigorous.... account of HMS Indefactigable might be interested in http://indefatigable1797.wordpress.com which is (surprisingly) written by two delightful ladies. I say, surprisingly, because it is not one of those subjects that would usually interest the fairer sex. I'm not saying this is perfect, but they go to an awful lot of trouble to present a huge body of research on the ship and crew as it was in 1797. West 1
ricky Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Anyone interested in a more.... rigorous.... account of HMS Indefactigable might be interested in http://indefatigable1797.wordpress.com which is (surprisingly) written by two delightful ladies. I say, surprisingly, because it is not one of those subjects that would usually interest the fairer sex. I'm not saying this is perfect, but they go to an awful lot of trouble to present a huge body of research on the ship and crew as it was in 1797. West Thanks, this is awesome. Loved getting into the personal correspondence.
ricky Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 Mark,The first chapter was posted on a Friday. Does that mean that Fridays are the anticipated posting days?
Mark Arbour Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 Mark, The first chapter was posted on a Friday. Does that mean that Fridays are the anticipated posting days? That sounds like a good plan.
Daddydavek Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Chapter 2 of HMS Valiant is up and has a huge surprise.
Westie Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Chapter 2 of HMS Valiant is up and has a huge surprise. How do you know he's huge? I must have missed that part
Kookie Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 The "summer Home" on the Isle of Wright sounds wonderful, but no doubt will further antagonize some of his fellow Naval Officers. I am sure, it will provide the perfect environment for entertaining and hosting various captains and admirals and will provide a place where such officers can relax and discuss their concerns without them being broadcast to the fleet. 1
Daddydavek Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 How do you know he's huge? I must have missed that part Your birthday weekend in Paris seems to have made your libido soar. I said the chapter had a huge surprise and made no mention of anyone being huge down there....But one can hope!
ricky Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Your birthday weekend in Paris seems to have made your libido soar. I said the chapter had a huge surprise and made no mention of anyone being huge down there....But one can hope! Well with a name like Hornblower he is bound to be, eh?
sandrewn Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 HMS Valiant will have will have a substantial increase in broad side weight over HMS Indefatigable. HMS Indefatigable 44 guns 26 x 24 lb cannon (range up to 2150 yds) 12 x 12 lb cannon 06 x 42 lb carronade (range up to 1170 yds) HMS Valiant 44 guns 26 x 24 lb cannon 16 x 42 lb carronade 02 x 68 lb carronade (range up to 1280 yds) We never heard of how effective the water collector was on Bacchante, maybe having one up each mast might help with their water/ballast problem. Will they be able to openly rig up the boat davits there or have to wait till once at sea. The waist covers they created for Bacchante would be so much easier to make while in a port with wood supplies. I also, would like to know who the new middies will be. I wonder what the Figurehead is or will be. 1
Westie Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 I wonder what the Figurehead is or will be. Interestingly, during this period of history, she more than likely wouldn't have had one. The figurehead fell out of favour in the very late 1790s and would only experience a renaissance after the Napoleonic wars ended. That return would be brief though.... the last British battle-ship to hold one was launched in 1884 2
sandrewn Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 It has been so quiet around here that I even heard a pin drop. Since we have been given apprx posting dates, here is some filler. Chapter one mentioned the Quiberon landings and chapter two has Hornblower show up looking pretty bad after his captivity in a Spanish prison. Here are two the episodes in the Hornblower series that refer to these events. ▶ hornblower 4 The Frogs And The Lobsters - YouTube HORNBLOWER 3 The Duchess And The Devil - YouTube Note I would have entertained you with my organ grinder. Unfortunately, its crank is jammed and the monkey on strike, holding out for more peanuts and an extra banana. Street organ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ricky Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Note I would have entertained you with my organ grinder. Unfortunately, its crank is jammed and the monkey on strike, holding out for more peanuts and an extra banana. Street organ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Well how about this, I'll whistle or hum a tune and you can dance for us.
Daddydavek Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Since Westie is one of the resources Mark Arbour uses and today is his actual birthday (although he already had his fun weekend in gay Paree) how about everyone join me in wishing him: Happy Birthday Westie & Many, many more! Edited March 10, 2014 by Daddydavek 1
sandrewn Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Westie There are good ships, and there are wood ships, The ships that sail the sea. But the best ships are friendships, And may they always be. Wishing you a very Happy Birthday! Sandrewn 1
Westie Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Well, this was unexpected.... But thanks so much Since Westie is one of the resources Mark Arbour uses I'm not sure I would quite wear the badge "used by Mark Arbour"... 3
ricky Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Well, this was unexpected.... But thanks so much I'm not sure I would quite wear the badge "used by Mark Arbour"... Well, who wouldn't if they could? I mean even if he's half as good as he writes he's still gotta be one hell of a ride. And why do you think so many people bow before him? You got it, they're living in hopes that bending over will get them used by Mark Arbour too. And being a middle of the sexes liking kinda guy, both sides of the student bod can be made 4.0.
sandrewn Posted March 12, 2014 Posted March 12, 2014 This makes twice I have been gobsmacked within the last 28 posts. 1
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