[LittleBuddhaTW] SOOTB 22

[Camy]

Yeah, I agree...camy's theory's are no where near as sensible as mine

B ... b ... but.

[VTicarus]

Kitty - sorry to hear you were caught up in last years storms. I hope you & yours have at least found comfort in your day to day experiences. As with the people in this story, I don't think things will ever get to be "normal" again for anyone involved in such a catastrophe.

 

Your post said some of what I have been feeling, but also surprised me a bit. Mainly it was your selection of which characters are currently (or should we say more than usual) in crisis. I have been reading it as having Toby on a road to what will most likely be recovery, but it may well be a long road. Connor is now mastering more positive growth. (Even in how he is handling the break up. I don't remember exactly, but don't think he is currrently on daily anxiety drugs. He had a fit, screamed at the breakup, but there was no anxiety attack.) Maggie continues to be Maggie.

 

The only person I see being IN CRISIS is Ryan. Unlike others in the forum, I don't see him as a suicide risk. I see him more likely to take his anxiety out on others around him, but not those he cares about. I really think his problem is loving too much, and thinking too little about himself. He didn't save Connor from rape. Toby got sick and he withdrew. Mikey - well, he had driven him away from Toby, led him to act out at school, probably believes he started the trouble between Mikey and his parents, promised to come out and support him and then didn't, etc. There is a way that, in his current mind frame, he could interpolate the results as having been caused by his own actions. He is in a mode of preventing further harm and sadness, not causing more. Of all the characters, it seems to me that he is dealing with the most potentialy damaging situations.

 

Worst of all, in the back of my mind, is the fact that the current living situation is still considered to be temporary. Connor could be pulled from the home, or - "for Ryan's sake" - he could choose to leave. Like our own lives, this could just end up being one small chapter along the way.

 

(With how many high school/college friends, who were once your whole world, are you still in touch?)

 

And, as to our ability to act in an emergency, most people are surprised by just how much they CAN handle, and how well they react in the moment. We might even be surprised by our own actions in such cases! Myself, I don't think anyone is in a set character - always able to surprise us with unexpected change.

[Boxerdude]

The only person I see being IN CRISIS is Ryan. Unlike others in the forum, I don't see him as a suicide risk. I see him more likely to take his anxiety out on others around him, but not those he cares about. I really think his problem is loving too much, and thinking too little about himself. He didn't save Connor from rape. Toby got sick and he withdrew. Mikey - well, he had driven him away from Toby, led him to act out at school, probably believes he started the trouble between Mikey and his parents, promised to come out and support him and then didn't, etc. There is a way that, in his current mind frame, he could interpolate the results as having been caused by his own actions. He is in a mode of preventing further harm and sadness, not causing more. Of all the characters, it seems to me that he is dealing with the most potentialy damaging situations.

 

Worst of all, in the back of my mind, is the fact that the current living situation is still considered to be temporary. Connor could be pulled from the home, or - "for Ryan's sake" - he could choose to leave. Like our own lives, this could just end up being one small chapter along the way.

 

 

 

I think Kitty is right on with her assessment of Toby and Connor. The leukemia will be Toby's life long fight. It is a disease and he and his family will have to deal with it the rest of their lives. I believe that includes Connor as he considers Toby a brother. I think that is mentally and physically a challenging right now for Toby.

 

Connor, I have a special kinship with Connor and I believe as Kitty does that he is in Crisis. He is looking and sounding like he is holding up just fine, but one seldom gets over the tramaus that he has endured completely. His rape, that hits very close to home for me. I have held this private to only a few on the chat room but I see no way of explaining myself with out being open. I was raped when I was 8 years old by an older man in his 50's. I kept it locked up in the furthers parts of my mind until about 6 years ago. I had been in therapy because I had anger issues but did not know why. Well all of a sudden a 36 year old man remembers what happened to him when he was 8 years old. I had never dealt with it. It came flooding out of me and I might as well been that 8 year old boy right then. Now, after 6 years of dealing with it and talking more openly about it I am again having some issues. After reading this story, I realized that I still have not completely healed from my experience. SO, my point is, there is no way Connor has had TIME to deal with it. He is still in CRISIS, he is just not showing it. He is extremely vulnurable to an extent that I understand. Also, the medication, I can almost promise you he is on it. Anxiety and Panic attacks don't just go away. I would imagine he is on a dose of Klonopin every day or some other antidepressant. If I stop taking my med's the attacks come right back. They can be horrifying.

 

I really believe Kitty hit the nail on the head this time.

 

Boxerdude

[The Journeyman]

I think Kitty is right. Ryan is not in crisis -- there is no imminent personal life-death situation that he is facing just now. There is no crisis. He is under stress, and the problem is that it is that he has created a spiral of stress for himself. He refused to talk about or even acknowledge the first crisis -- Toby's -- and began to withdraw. Which made talking about anything more difficult. Then with Mikey (a tragedy, but not a crisis), he felt more alienated and less willing to talk, and now I think he feels (subconsciously, perhaps) that he really has no one to talk to. The spiral feeds on itself.

 

I also wonder if LB hasn't found himself in a little bit of a spiral with Ryan. Characters take on lives of their own, and the authors are sometimes a little hard-pressed to get them to do what they want them to. Anyone who has written anything knows what I'm talking about. Things may actually have progressed a little further with Ryan than LB maybe wanted, although I haven't seen any hard evidence of that.

 

Each of us does act differently to stress. I tend to withdraw, too. Some talk to as many people as they can. Some bake pies. Some show anger. Some stand around so consumed by the stress that they are paralyzed -- they can't say or do anything. The don't know what to do. All they can do is rely on whatever routine they have.

 

I haven't posted here before, so let me say that I like this story a lot. I'm a fan of love, good dialog and character development. This story has all of that.

 

Journeyman

[Camy]

I think the whole family unit is in crisis...

 

Maggie: Doctor, works long, long hours. One son possibly dying, the other in seemingly major denial, 'new' son having major problems.

 

Toby: Possibly dying, wants a peaceful stress free life, wants Connor really but can't have him, has to deal not only with Ryan acting up, but Connor's neediness as well as his sickness.

 

Ryan: Totally freaked out big time. Withdrawn.

 

Connor: Hideously abused as of chapter one, then raped (unresolved-tbc?)now in a great family environment that is going to hell.

 

All of them are on medication of one sort or another.

 

It's a great recipe for chapter 23!

[C James]

I think Kitty is right. Ryan is not in crisis -- there is no imminent personal life-death situation that he is facing just now. There is no crisis. He is under stress, and the problem is that it is that he has created a spiral of stress for himself. He refused to talk about or even acknowledge the first crisis -- Toby's -- and began to withdraw. Which made talking about anything more difficult. Then with Mikey (a tragedy, but not a crisis), he felt more alienated and less willing to talk, and now I think he feels (subconsciously, perhaps) that he really has no one to talk to. The spiral feeds on itself.

 

Would you by and chance be the same Journeyman who wrote "Journey of Love" that appeared on the Eggman's old site? If so, you certainly have experience in writing characters with psychological depth and also a few psychological problems.

 

I agree with all of the above, except for a slightly different take on Mikey: I'd say that Mikey still has the potential to be a real crisis (or major stress, I suppose) for Ryan, if Ryan feels guilt over the way he behaved towards his best friend.

 

Having guilt towards the dead is an entirely different matter than to the living IMHO, as it is by it's nature unresolvable.

 

I also wonder if LB hasn't found himself in a little bit of a spiral with Ryan. Characters take on lives of their own, and the authors are sometimes a little hard-pressed to get them to do what they want them to. Anyone who has written anything knows what I'm talking about. Things may actually have progressed a little further with Ryan than LB maybe wanted, although I haven't seen any hard evidence of that.

 

What an interesting question! I hope that LB will at some point (perhaps after the story is over?) discuss it.

I've heard many writers mention this situation before. Personally, I never beleived it, until I tried writing.

I think the whole family unit is in crisis...

 

Maggie: Doctor, works long, long hours. One son possibly dying, the other in seemingly major denial, 'new' son having major problems.

 

Toby: Possibly dying, wants a peaceful stress free life, wants Connor really but can't have him, has to deal not only with Ryan acting up, but Connor's neediness as well as his sickness.

 

Ryan: Totally freaked out big time. Withdrawn.

 

Connor: Hideously abused as of chapter one, then raped (unresolved-tbc?)now in a great family environment that is going to hell.

 

All of them are on medication of one sort or another.

 

It's a great recipe for chapter 23!

totally agreed.

 

Is Ryan actually on meds right now? Or, more to the point, is he SUPPOSED to be on meds (and perhaps isn't taking them?)? Or, my own hunch: He *is* on ADD meds, and that is the cause of his problem!

 

ADD meds can have some nasty side effects, including psychosis, depression (to the point of suicide) manic behavior, etc. Some are extreme stimulants such as Dexedrine. Dexedrine is nasty stuff; it's full chemical name is Dedextroamphetamine. Starting to sound familiar? That's because it's an Amphetamine, like methamphetamine (Known as Meth or Speed). Dexedrine is a commonly abused drug (Take a guess where the name for the band "Dexy's midnight runners" came from).

 

The big problem here is that in many cases, the "cure" is worse then the "disease" for ADD. A huge problem is that most ADD meds are prescribed by family physicians! GP's are NOT psychiatrists, and have no business prescribing psychiatric meds! Unfortunately, many GP's seem to assume their competence in many specialty fields, and disaster often results.

 

So, I'm wondering if this could be a big part of Ryan's problem? If so, he's a definite suicide risk.. He's also a candidate for becoming violent.

 

Edit to add: This is the 62nd post in this thread. Add to that the 28 in the Ch 22 pre-realease thread, and you have 90 posts for chapter 22.

Edited July 11, 2006 by C James

[LittleBuddhaTW]

I also wonder if LB hasn't found himself in a little bit of a spiral with Ryan. Characters take on lives of their own, and the authors are sometimes a little hard-pressed to get them to do what they want them to. Anyone who has written anything knows what I'm talking about. Things may actually have progressed a little further with Ryan than LB maybe wanted, although I haven't seen any hard evidence of that.

 

Thanks for the analysis, Journeyman, and I'm honored that you're enjoying the story. "Journey of Love" is one of my fave stories, and is listed as such on my site.

 

On this point, though, I think Ryan is just where I want him to be, and where I expected him to be from the beginning.

[C James]

Based on the events of Ch 22, does anyone have any predictions for Ch.23?

 

My predictions for what will happen in Ch 23 are:

 

Connor starts to think about "moving on" from Ryan, possibly due to temptations from their Cody or Ben.

 

Ryan sinks even deeper due to whatever is wrong with him, and balks (at least at first) at being Toby's donor.

 

Maggie finally reaches her limit, and reads Ryan the riot act.

[NickolasJames8]

Based on the events of Ch 22, does anyone have any predictions for Ch.23?

 

 

 

 

Ok, here's mine (no seriously )

 

 

Ryan's finally going to have his break down, and it's going to be Connor who's by his side. Toby's going to step to Cody again, and nothing happens with the twins. Oh yeah, and Maggie makes Ryan go to counseling.

 

 

Just those things so far, and that a lion attacks Tatyanna at the zoo, but she communicates with it through mind control and set's it loose on Mikey's rents

[Boxerdude]

Ok, here's mine (no seriously )

Ryan's finally going to have his break down, and it's going to be Connor who's by his side. Toby's going to step to Cody again, and nothing happens with the twins. Oh yeah, and Maggie makes Ryan go to counseling.

Just those things so far, and that a lion attacks Tatyanna at the zoo, but she communicates with it through mind control and set's it loose on Mikey's rents

 

 

Personally, I think that Connor will breakdown and that will shake Ryan up. I

have to be honest, the rape thing is not over. There are triggers that cause relapses and Connor could easily have one forcing him to breakdown. He is not as strong as "he" thinks yet. I know, I have been there. It is what real life does to you. Something will happen, he will feel frightened, scared, vulnurable, and completely not needed. A trigger can be something small but lead to a casscading effect. What if he sees or runs into the guy that raped him or even someone who resembled him. Connor could fold and have a hard time recovering. I think then Ryan would wake up and come to his rescue. (Okay that is the romantic in me, but Ryan may wake up on his own) Connor is still very, very much at risk of a trigger causing him a relapse. It happens. It happened to me.

 

Boxerdude

[VTicarus]

Ryan sinks even deeper due to whatever is wrong with him, and balks (at least at first) at being Toby's donor.

 

Before I address the quote I'll just share my thoughts for chapter 23. At some point we really need to address Maggie & Ryans losses which have made them as they are. Toby did a little at Christmas - and could do with more. It just seems like a loose end whose time has come.

 

Now, Ryan will help Toby I am 'sure". (translates as very very hopeful)I hope he doesn't let his pain win. I have been keeping a thought in the back of my mind, and guess it is not mainstream enough to make it into the story, so I'll share. I mentioned a song earlier that I have been hearing in my mind throughout this story.

 

In 1969 Elton answered a newspaper ad seeking a piano player for a recording session where the Hollies recorded B. J. Thomas' He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother. He also later recorded it, himself, for Muzak recordings used in stores. Not his usual fare, but, the words seem appropriate for this story. I'll include them below, along with links to one of my favorite singers performing the song - Rufus Wainwright, and the Hollies session with Elton at the piano.

 

B.J. THOMAS | He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother

 

The road is long

With many a winding turn

That leads us to who knows where

Who knows where

But I'm strong

Strong enough to carry him

He ain't heavy, he's just my brother

 

So on we go

His welfare is my concern

No burden is he to bear

Ahh, were gonna get there

For I know

He won't encumber me at all

He ain't heavy, he's just my brother

 

If I'm laden at all

I'm laden with sadness

That everybody's heart

Isn't filled with gladness

Of love, Love for one another

 

Oh, It's a long, long road

From which there is no return

While we're on our way to there

Why don't we share

And the load

Doesn't weigh me down at all

He ain't heavy, he's my brother

 

If you follow the link scroll down the page to select Rufus or the Hollies.

 

http://www.quietaragazzo.com.br/internacional/menu/M_Z.htm

A little over half way down, under Rufus Wainwright

 

http://www.geocities.com/rrpage28/?972854962500

Last listed song, The Hollies w/ Elton

Edited July 13, 2006 by VTicarus

[C James]

Ok, here's mine (no seriously )

Ryan's finally going to have his break down, and it's going to be Connor who's by his side. Toby's going to step to Cody again, and nothing happens with the twins. Oh yeah, and Maggie makes Ryan go to counseling.

Just those things so far, and that a lion attacks Tatyanna at the zoo, but she communicates with it through mind control and set's it loose on Mikey's rents

 

I like most of your predictions!

 

I don't know if Ryan will have his breakdown (or whatever form his realization takes) in CH23, as LB might stretch it out to the following chapter or further...

 

I think you are right about Cody and Toby...

 

Personally, I think that Connor will breakdown and that will shake Ryan up. I

have to be honest, the rape thing is not over. There are triggers that cause relapses and Connor could easily have one forcing him to breakdown. He is not as strong as "he" thinks yet. I know, I have been there. It is what real life does to you. Something will happen, he will feel frightened, scared, vulnurable, and completely not needed. A trigger can be something small but lead to a casscading effect. What if he sees or runs into the guy that raped him or even someone who resembled him. Connor could fold and have a hard time recovering. I think then Ryan would wake up and come to his rescue. (Okay that is the romantic in me, but Ryan may wake up on his own) Connor is still very, very much at risk of a trigger causing him a relapse. It happens. It happened to me.

 

Totally agreed that Connor probably isn't over his attack. I think you have that spot-on. I wonder how LB will portray that aspect (if he does)? LB hasn't, so far, given us cut-and-dried explanations of the psychology at play here, and that IMHO is one of the things that makes the story so realistic. In real life, you often don't get to find out the underlying causes of psychological trouble, and rarely know the exact reasons behind someone else's problems (as, indeed, they often don't know themselves).

 

Now, Ryan will help Toby I am 'sure". (translates as very very hopeful)I hope he doesn't let his pain win. I have been keeping a thought in the back of my mind, and guess it is not mainstream enough to make it into the story, so I'll share. I mentioned a song earlier that I have been hearing in my mind throughout this story.

 

I hope that you are right and that I am wrong, but given Ryan's recent behavior, plus the set-up of him being the only Donor match known, I suspect trouble is afoot in that department. Just a hunch on my part.

 

I see your point with the lyrics, but right now Ryan IMHO isn't behaving rationally. We did see some appropriate behavior when Maggie called from the hospital, but that was the exception rather then the rule.

[C James]

Maggie lost her husband. That was shortly after almost losing her son to leukemia (the first time around.) Ryan and Toby lost their father. Now they are all having to deal with Toby's illness and possible death, this time without an important part of the family. We haven't been told how this family dealt with the death of their father and husband, or what's happened in the interim. I don't recall that we've even been told how Mr. McCormack died.

 

It's alluded to in Ch 1: "I'd found out that Dr. McCormack was a single mom, their dad having passed away only two years ago from a massive heart attack."

 

It's not, as I recall, mentioned how they dealt with it.

That sort of a shock can have serious long-term effects on anyone, but IMHO especially kids.

 

I would suggest we find new ways of looking at things, rather than focusing whether they're "rational" or not. I can see more and more that whether something is rational or not is just not a helpful path of inquiry. It can only take us so far. This points out one shortcoming of Western culture, in particular, that may contribute to the problem I referred to at the beginning of this post. If we're stuck in our heads, trying to figure things out and make things "fit" into our mental picture, we aren't going to understand much about the reality of life or the world around us.

 

That is a very good point, especially considering that psychologists are still arguing over a definition of "rational".

 

A better choice of words on my part would perhaps have been "normal". Ryan certainly is not (IMHO) behaving normally, compared to his behavior in the early chapters. While Ryan's behavior might be quite normal for some people, it's (IMHO) the strong and relatively consistent change (to withdrawal and rejection) over a comparatively short time that to me indicates major trouble. But, he's a teenager, and I was unable to understand "normal" teen behavior and psychology, even when I was a teen myself.

[Kurt]

Okay, I tried to read all 5 pages of this topic, but it was taking a REALLY long time, so I am just going to give my thoughts.

 

I was really kind of shocked when I read the first sentence. I had to press the back button, go to chapter 21, read the last paragraph, then go back to chapter 22 and re-read the first sentence. However, I guess that I am not to shocked because of the way that Ryan has been acting.

 

I dislike Ryan. I guess I am not really sure if I always have disliked him. I think that I did like him towards the beginning of the relationship with Conner. But now, I dislike him. I dislike the way that he has been acting, and I dislike the way that he handles things. Before Mikey's death, Ryan really started to drift away from everyone. I guess that is when I started to dislike him.

 

I am so happy that Toby is doing better. I am not sure what is going to happen with the bone marrow transplant. The way that Ryan has been acting, I am not so sure how willingly he will give some bone marrow.

 

It was great how Toby stood up for Conner when Ryan broke up with him. And how he has stayed by Conner's side to make sure that he is okay, and etting through the whole break up. Just how Conner has stayed by Toby's side throughout the whole treatment thing. It is great to see such a wonderful friendship. They are true friends.

 

I do not think that I could ever picture Conner and Toby as a couple. They are like really close brothers, and they are such great friends.

 

I also do not think that Ryan and Conner would make such a great couple anymore. Throughout their relationship they have been through so much. It is really hard for me to believe that Ryan really no longer loves Conner. However, I am thinking that maybe Ryan really does not love Conner the way that he once thought he did, or the way that Conner loved/loves Ryan. I am not so sure if they will get back together, and personally I would like them not to.

 

I really like Ben and Derek. They seem like such cool people. They have really been great friends to Conner. They have helped him through the bad times, and they have just been there for him. They do not dwell on all the bad things that Conner has gone through either. Their home and their comapny is a place where Conner can go to forget about all the problems he has at the time, even if it is just for a little while. I think that is exactly what Conner need right now.

 

I think that it could be a great expirence for Conner to date Ben. Even if they relationship does not work out. I think that it would help Conner get on with his life, and I think that it would help him in the future. I think that Conner and Ben would make a great couple.

 

I am happy to see that Toby and Cody are back to being atleast friends again. They both deserve someone great. They deserve eachother. They make a great couple.

 

Who finds their true love, the one that they will spend the rest of their life with, at such an age? Yes, it does happen, but to me it seems like such a rare thing to happen.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe Conner and Ryan were not ment to be together. Heck, Conner might not have even met the person that he will end up spending the rest of his life with. He is only 16. He has a long time to find that person yet. A lot of people to not find that person until a lot later in life. Some people never even find that person. I think that it may be a good thing that Conner and Ryan broke up.

 

Okay, now to Conners thoughts when he was talking with Maggie. It kind of surprised me, but then again it didn't. I guess the phyiscal thoughts that he had really did surprise me but the other ones did not. He has not had such great expirences with adults. And he has yet to be comfortable around them and trust them yet.

 

This really was a great great chapter. I loved it! I cannot wait to read more. It is great to see more readers voicing their thoughts and opinions.

 

for David and Kitty

 

Kurt

[C James]

I was really kind of shocked when I read the first sentence. I had to press the back button, go to chapter 21, read the last paragraph, then go back to chapter 22 and re-read the first sentence. However, I guess that I am not to shocked because of the way that Ryan has been acting.

 

I dislike Ryan. I guess I am not really sure if I always have disliked him. I think that I did like him towards the beginning of the relationship with Conner. But now, I dislike him. I dislike the way that he has been acting, and I dislike the way that he handles things. Before Mikey's death, Ryan really started to drift away from everyone. I guess that is when I started to dislike him.

 

The big question for me is: Is Ryan's behavior a temporary aberration, or not? If it's temporary he may well revert to being like he was in the early chapters.

I am so happy that Toby is doing better. I am not sure what is going to happen with the bone marrow transplant. The way that Ryan has been acting, I am not so sure how willingly he will give some bone marrow.

 

That's what I'm thinking too.

 

I really like Ben and Derek. They seem like such cool people. They have really been great friends to Conner. They have helped him through the bad times, and they have just been there for him. They do not dwell on all the bad things that Conner has gone through either. Their home and their comapny is a place where Conner can go to forget about all the problems he has at the time, even if it is just for a little while. I think that is exactly what Conner need right now.

 

I think that it could be a great experience for Conner to date Ben. Even if they relationship does not work out. I think that it would help Conner get on with his life, and I think that it would help him in the future. I think that Conner and Ben would make a great couple.

 

I'm really wondering about the Connor/Ben angle, too. I also wonder about the orientation of the other twin, (Derick/Ethan ) though it looks like he is straight.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe Conner and Ryan were not ment to be together. Heck, Conner might not have even met the person that he will end up spending the rest of his life with. He is only 16. He has a long time to find that person yet. A lot of people to not find that person until a lot later in life. Some people never even find that person. I think that it may be a good thing that Conner and Ryan broke up.

 

That is an especially good insight, especially given your own age! I'd have to say that it's easier for those of us past our teens to look back and say "nah, first loves almost never last", but who is it who sees that aspect? Kurt! Good one, Kurt!

 

BTW, there are now 72 posts in this thread, and 28 in the pre-release thread, making a total of 100 posts for Chapter 22!