[LittleBuddhaTW] SOOTB 25

[dkstories]

He's in the United States now, not Taiwan. No long flights needed to grab his ass and beat it until we get chapter 25.

 

 

How's that for meaningful?

 

 

[C James]

No, "My Elusive Drug" is not a sequel. The main character's name is Billy.

 

It sounds intreguing!

 

As for sequals.. Do you have any plans (that you are willing to share or mention) to do more with Cody and Tatyana at some point?

 

And ... I've been informed that I'm not allowed to post the final chapter of SOOTB until y'all have had a "meaningful" discussion about Ch. 25 ... I swear, it wasn't my idea, but I don't call the shots around here!

 

I will probably make enemies by saying this, but as this is our last chance to have a between-chapter discussion of SOOTB, I rather like that idea!

 

I can't do so right now due to work, but within the next two hours I'll re-read Ch 25 and see if I can come up with some meaningful thoughts.

[VTicarus]

Sure some bloke scribbled "Jesus wept", in Greek, 400 years after the fact, and it is world famous 1606 years later as one of the most human and eloquent sentences ever created.

 

I say I wept & it's not meaningful!

 

Harrumph!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2006 by VTicarus

[Xiao_Chun]

I followed James

[VTicarus]

My personal preference would be to see a mix of "fun" discussions and ones that go into the depth of what the story is saying.

Your second part first. It can be a little intimidating in this type of story as every person reading it has such a different feel for the story and varied life experiences which deeply effect how they interpret the story. LB left us room to live within the story, and really make it our own. No one is wrong as there are unlimited possible interpretations, but it may make you hesitant to tell what you read and felt after another person has posted ideas which are very different. That variety, though, is part of what makes it special.

 

 

I've been wondering whether the effect of the story has been so powerful that people are not ready to say anything about it, or unsure how to express it, or whether it's that they don't want to deal with it. Or maybe they think it's none of anyone else's business, which is true.

 

OK, I'll jump in as I was one of the people who wrote to Kitty in private and shared what has gone on for me. (Though, I wrote really early in the morning and I'm not sure it made sense. Pre-caffein typing is a hazardous occupation!)

 

I mentioned earlier (ad nauseum?) that I really hope Connor and Ryan end up together. I also mentioned that in many ways I lived a life quite similar to Connors - abused physically and mentally by a drunken parent, alone and forced to be fully self reliant, gifted musically - thankfully, for that outlet for emotions kept me almost sane.

 

But, reading the story, it was Ryan who became the main character of the story for me. He was so much the hero I always wanted to ride in on his horse and rescue me, but even more he was so like someone who actually did. Unfortunately my hero could be there for me as long as no one knew, and could never accept that he was gay. (Quinn from TOU?). I accepted what he could give, hoping he would grow to accept himself and realize our love was a good thing. After 6 years I couldn't wait any more. As a weekend together ended, I realized I would never go back. It wasn't because I didn't love him - but I had to love myself more.

 

This story has brought all the pain to the surface, as if it happened yesterday - not 10 years ago. There is still not a day I don't think of my "Ryan", and I have never stopped loving him. But, after reading this story and The Ordinary Us, yesterday I mailed him a letter, telling him I would be in his town next Saturday and where I would wait... IF he missed me as much as I miss him. Sometimes, love IS worth taking a risk. I've lost him once already, but maybe I can at least regain a friend.

 

Without SOOTB I don't think I would have ever contacted him again. This is what the story "meant" to me.

 

Charles

Edited August 10, 2006 by VTicarus

[C James]

OK, I've just re-read Ch 25, and I thought I'd quote a few perts that were meaningful to me, and why.

 

I might have enjoyed the sight of Cody scampering around in his tiny pair of white Speedos.

OK, not meaningful perhaps, but I really liked the visual imagery here!

 

I heard worried voices all around me, but I couldn't make out whose they were. As I lay there on the ground, trembling and whimpering, I suddenly felt a pair of strong arms holding me. I wasn't sure who it was, since my eyes were clenched shut, but something seemed so familiar ... like the scent of strawberries and Irish Spring soap. But, for some reason, I couldn't place it. I knew it made me feel better, though ... safer, somehow. I then felt another pair of hands helping to put my shorts back on.

 

This, to me, shows that Connor still has a deep emotional attachment to Ryan, and Ryan for Connor. I'm still on the fence as to whether I think they will get back together or not, but this to me is the strongest indicator that they will.

 

Now we come to what was really a very evocative scene for me: Maggie and Connor's chat. IMHO, it's perhaps the most significant and meaningful of the chapter: I'm going to just quote a few snips from the conversation that really caught my eye:

 

I really didn't want to get into this right now, but she had me backed into a proverbial corner. So, now I was going to settle this problem once and for all. I just hoped I could control my temper. I didn't want to get into a fight or shouting match. All I wanted was to be left alone for a little while. Sure, I'd had a slight panic attack, but I was fine now -- well, maybe still a bit upset about what had happened -- but I didn't need to be babied or talked down to like I was a little kid.

 

I don't get Connor's reaction at all. I don't see anywhere where Maggie was treating him like a little kid.

 

"Look, Maggie," I began. "I'm very grateful for everything you've done for me. You've given me a place to live, bought me all kinds of things, and helped me out a lot. I'll always be thankful for that."

 

"Well, I'm glad you finally noticed that, Connor," Maggie said, with a sarcastic edge to her voice.

 

I think that, under the circumstances, Maggie was well justified to be a bit sarcastic. I was however VERY glad to see Connor acknowledging what Maggie has done for him. That was great!

 

She most certainly looked upset by that comment. I hoped I wasn't being too harsh, but I hadn't been in the mood to have this conversation with her to begin with. Maybe it would have gone differently if she'd approached me at a different time. But she insisted on pushing me. Definitely not a good idea.

 

Interesting. Connor had just criticized Maggie for "talking down" to him, but does he realize that he's doing the very same thing?

 

"How about you start keeping the checks that the State sends every month," I suggested.

 

Now this shows real character on Connor's part IMHO. Very commendable IMHO, and perhaps a good way of alleviating some of his discomfort as well.

 

"Well, I think my suggestion was very fair. And if I start screwing up, then I won't complain if you want to step in and 'mother' me. But as long as I'm doing well, which I have been, why can't you just cut me some slack?"

 

"I hardly see you as it is, Connor," Maggie interjected. "So I don't see what the big deal is."

 

"Maybe that should tell you something," I muttered, but loud enough for her to hear.

 

Now this exchange fascinates me. Connor seems to be simultaneously criticizing Maggie for being too controlling AND being and absentee parent?!?!?!?!

 

"I can't say that I'm happy about this," she replied, sounding exasperated. "I wish we could find some way to get along better, and try to be a nice, happy family."

 

"Be a good mother to Ryan and Toby first," I said. "Then maybe I'll feel better about things."

 

I think this is very meaningful: On what grounds, EXACTLY, is Connor criticizing Maggie in regards to her parenting of Toby and Ryan? To me it looks like he criticizing her lack of involvement, which would IMHO be very significant as he seems to strenuously object to that very same involvement. I'm reminded of the old saying "You can't have it both ways."

 

Maggie looked stunned when I said that, and for a moment, she looked like she was about to tear my head off. But then she just sighed and walked away. Maybe it was a bit too precocious of me to say something like that to her, but I needed her to know how I felt. I wasn't a big believer in her notion of a "happy family." The only families I'd seen were ones where the parents either abused their kids, or tried to control them and make them think and act just like them. Parents always seemed to be harping on "respect," but most didn't seem to realize that respect was a two-way street. If the parents didn't respect the kids, why should the kids respect their parents?

 

Connor certainly seems to still have deep issues with Maggie, which due to his treatment by his mother and his childhood I can understand. However, understanding something and accepting it are two different things. It's hurtful and harmful to both of them, so I hope that they find a way to bury the hatchet at some point, for both of their sakes.

 

I fully agree with the "respect" issue, though. It must be a two-way street. The issue to me, though, is that I don't recall Maggie being disrespectful of Connor. I do however recall Connor disrespecting Maggie (both in this conversation and previously).

 

And then it hit me.

Like a friggin' ton of bricks.

Ryan had been the one! And he'd made me feel safe. Knowing that, though, just confused me even more.

 

OK, now THIS I find very significant and portentous! It looks to me like Connor is have a realization regarding his own feelings for Ryan. Now, the question is, will Ryan have a similar realization? There is after all still the big, unresolved question of WHY Ryan acted the way he did.

 

 

 

"Uhhh ... Cody, you are a kid," I reasoned. "I think teenagers are supposed to act immature and crazy sometimes."

 

Now this is something that rings very true to me, because Connor, Ryan, Toby, Ben, Cody, etc, ARE all teens, and teens do indeed act that way sometimes. I find that it's very, very easy to forget this detail and view them as adults, which is a mistake I make with real-life teens, too.

"The Ordinary Us," by Dom Luka. I'd read so many "coming out" and "coming of age" stories before, but something about this one had caught my eye.

 

Hmmm! Something about that one? I have a hunch that this is very significant. One theme to TOU was Quinn having trouble accepting his sexuality... Perhaps that's Ryan's issue?

 

There were a lot of questions that I didn't have the answers to.

 

And that is what real life is like. My hunch is that there may be a lot of things that we don't have answers for at the end of SOOTB, just as in real life, we often don't know the hows and whys of the way people behave.

 

I love the depth and complexity of the characters. It's very evident to me that, just like real people, they have their good points, and a few bad ones, and thus IMHO are much easier for people to identify with, or see aspects of themselves in. Beautiful writing, and superbly crafted to, as LB once said, "Push buttons" (Elicit deep emotional responses and opinions).

[PatrickOBrien]

I think that one of the most important issues so far with the Ben relationship, is the fact that he doesn't love him. In chapter 24, when Ryan returns, Connor says to him, "I'm with Ben now.." not "I love Ben." and its not just the fact that he didnt say that to Ryan, he can't say it to himself. he said to himself, "After being "together" for a while now, why weren't Ben and I "official" yet? That was a really good question."

in the same paragraph, he says he loves Ryan twice. I dunno, maybe I'm lookin too into it, or something, lol. FANTASTIC story tho.

[Boxerdude]

Birds, you've got a deal. Head on over to the Ben or Ryan thread. In post no. 3, I've got a specific question that I've asked, that I would love to see what everyone would do with.

Kitty

 

Kitty, I know you have directed this question to Birds, but I took you up on this challenge as when I read your question, the answer came flowing out. You make a very solid point and I have my own point of view on it and I think it is the way I feel the story should end.

 

David

[Aurric]

I know I started reading this story a bit late (as in, after chapter 25 had been posted), but I did manage to catch up, mostly due to extra time from being sick ( ).

 

As I've been reading the story though, probably not unlike most other readers, I've been putting faces to the names I see as their personalities develop. But, instead of thinking what stars would be best for the role, I've actually been putting faces I remember from high school into roles. It's odd how well some people work, and on the other hand, how some physical descriptions don't work, but the personalities do.

 

One thing I've noticed, is that I kept putting myself into the role of Conner. Except for maybe the physical build, I look nothing like I would imagine Conner to look like. It's ridiculous, too, to compare me to Conner, because I came from a life much better than Conner's was... Granted, it's not like every life has it's problems, but I've certainly had it much easier than he is.

 

I've come to believe that I keep putting myself into Conner's shoes because, well, it's a fantasy story. I mean, who WOULDN'T love to be saved the way he was, taken from a veritable hell and dragged into a much better life with a loving family? I know I would, and I don't even see myself as having anything to be 'saved from'.

 

*shrug* Maybe this isn't quite the deep conversation you were looking for, but it was just my thoughts as I read the story.

[Xiao_Chun]

I've come to believe that I keep putting myself into Conner's shoes because, well, it's a fantasy story. I mean, who WOULDN'T love to be saved the way he was, taken from a veritable hell and dragged into a much better life with a loving family? I know I would, and I don't even see myself as having anything to be 'saved from'.

 

*shrug* Maybe this isn't quite the deep conversation you were looking for, but it was just my thoughts as I read the story.

 

I'm with Aurric on this one. I put myself into the role of characters in stories that I read, but in this one I fantasized about being Ryan. I imagine being the savior, the protector, the hero. Of course, I am not like Ryan in real life. Maybe physically I am (tall and athletic), but Ryan has so many good qualities that I wish that I had (self confidence, kindness, coolness). At least in the first 16 chapters Ryan had those nice qualities.

 

After Ch. 16 something happened to Ryan and he started transforming, loosing all those nice qualities. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want Ryan back to "normal". I want to know what started the change in Ryan and I want him to make peace with Connor, Toby and maybe with himself.

 

It just occurred to me that maybe Ryan thought that he is not good enough for Connor. After getting to know Connor, how multitalented he is, how bright he is, how every other boy falls for him, Ryan thought that he might not be good enough for Connor. Maybe he thought that Connor is with him because he feels obligated for being "saved" by Ryan, and under different circumstances Connor would not have chosen to be with him. Maybe the ADD contributed to that as well. After struggling with his feelings for a long time, Ryan decided to let Connor go. Maybe these thoughts that he is not good enough led to his behavior: drifting away from friends, ignoring his brother, and eventually breaking up with Connor.

 

I should stop analyzing, because as I said in my previous post, there is now way I will be able to figure out what happened to Ryan. I guess LB wanted us to try, so he can read our desperate attempts and laugh. But I am sure that he planned some surprises for us in the final chapter. I am going to Target now, to buy a stock of tissues....

[LittleBuddhaTW]

I should stop analyzing, because as I said in my previous post, there is now way I will be able to figure out what happened to Ryan. I guess LB wanted us to try, so he can read our desperate attempts and laugh. But I am sure that he planned some surprises for us in the final chapter. I am going to Target now, to buy a stock of tissues....

 

I don't laugh at anyone's theories or comments (well, except for maybe Nicko's ). Whether they're accurate or not, I always enjoying reading them, so keep it up!

 

LB

 

P.S.- I'm making progress on Ch. 26, slowly but surely ... I appreciate everyone's patience!

[NickolasJames8]

(well, except for maybe Nicko's )

 

 

Mine??? Why, i couldn't imagine why

[VTicarus]

I imagine being the savior, the protector, the hero. Of course, I am not like Ryan in real life. Maybe physically I am (tall and athletic), but Ryan has so many good qualities that I wish that I had (self confidence, kindness, coolness).

 

Xiao Chun -

 

You sound absolutely wonderful to me! And by chance, I am currently accepting applications for a Personal Hero opening. We can skip the references.

Edited August 10, 2006 by VTicarus

[Xiao_Chun]

Xiao Chun -

 

You sound absolutely wonderful to me! And by chance, I am currently accepting applications for a Personal Hero opening. We can skip the references.

 

Oh VTicarus, you make me blush . But this is about Ryan, I just fantasize that I'm him.

[Altimexis]

OK, I've just re-read Ch 25, and I thought I'd quote a few perts that were meaningful to me, and why.

Your analysis is insightful as always. Hope you don't mind if I piggyback on some of your comments.

Now we come to what was really a very evocative scene for me: Maggie and Connor's chat. IMHO, it's perhaps the most significant and meaningful of the chapter: I'm going to just quote a few snips from the conversation that really caught my eye:

There is an inherent conflict in Connor's relationship with Maggie and it is this internal struggle that influences his thoughts in this segment. On the one hand, he wants to be left alone. He was abused by his biological mother and forced to not only fend for himself, but to serve as the "man of the family", working to provide a "roof over their heads". Connor sees himself as an adult and expects to be treated as one.

On the other hand, Conner is still a child and he seeks and indeed craves affection. This is a basic instinct that we never really outgrow, but that is particularly active when we're young. Conner wants freedom and he wants to be loved and protected at the same time.

I really didn't want to get into this right now, but she had me backed into a proverbial corner. So, now I was going to settle this problem once and for all. I just hoped I could control my temper. I didn't want to get into a fight or shouting match. All I wanted was to be left alone for a little while. Sure, I'd had a slight panic attack, but I was fine now -- well, maybe still a bit upset about what had happened -- but I didn't need to be babied or talked down to like I was a little kid.

I don't get Connor's reaction at all. I don't see anywhere where Maggie was treating him like a little kid.

Oh I completely understand Connor's reaction here. As greatful as we all feel Connor should feel for Maggie taking him in and giving him a home, their relationship has been very distant. In fact, her relationship with her own sons seems distant as well and I think that this will play a major role in Chapter 26. In other words, there's a lot of backstory here that we haven't seen yet. Now to us, the objective 3rd parties that we are, Maggie isn't treating Conner as a kid, but to Connor, any restrictions at all on his freedom or privacy are seen as treating him as a kid. He's been used to being on his own for several years now, after all. In this particular case, Maggie was being unusually motherly - something we haven't really seen much before, so it probably made Connor feel really uncomfortable.

"How about you start keeping the checks that the State sends every month," I suggested.

Now this shows real character on Connor's part IMHO. Very commendable IMHO, and perhaps a good way of alleviating some of his discomfort as well.

I tend to disagree with you here. I just think that Connor is used to providing for himself and being provided for makes him feel more like a kid than an adult. Come to think of it, isn't adolescense all about resolving this inherent conflict?

"Be a good mother to Ryan and Toby first," I said. "Then maybe I'll feel better about things."

I think this is very meaningful: On what grounds, EXACTLY, is Connor criticizing Maggie in regards to her parenting of Toby and Ryan? To me it looks like he criticizing her lack of involvement, which would IMHO be very significant as he seems to strenuously object to that very same involvement. I'm reminded of the old saying "You can't have it both ways."

I think you're missing the point here. Oh, I agree with the absurdity of this dichotomy, but I also somehow think that Connor would be more accepting of Maggie's parenting of him if he saw that she was also parenting Toby and Ryan. In other words, she's failing to be a good mother to Toby and Ryan, so how dare she try to be a parent to him.

And then it hit me.

Like a friggin' ton of bricks.

Ryan had been the one! And he'd made me feel safe. Knowing that, though, just confused me even more.

OK, now THIS I find very significant and portentous! It looks to me like Connor is have a realization regarding his own feelings for Ryan. Now, the question is, will Ryan have a similar realization? There is after all still the big, unresolved question of WHY Ryan acted the way he did.

I think you're getting very close to the crux of things, the Puzzle of Ryan's behavior is the real clue, and the key to their getting back together. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think that Connor has been taken in by a family that was dealing with serious issues long before he came on the scene. If I had to guess, I would say that things really fell apart when Toby first developed leukemia - perhaps that on top of a bitter divorce.

 

So in conclusion, I think the real issue is how Maggie and her family dealt with Toby's leukemia the first time around and the echoes that have resulted from its recurrence. Maggie turned away from her sons as a way of dealing with potential loss and Ryan simply withdrew. Add to that Mike's death and Ryan pushed Connor away to avoid the possibility of even further loss.

 

I expect that we'll see this largely resolved in Chapter 26, but as in real life, not everyone will be healed at the end of the story.

 

Nice analysis, C James! Oh, and BTW, I loved No Shirt, No Problem.

 

"The Ordinary Us," by Dom Luka. I'd read so many "coming out" and "coming of age" stories before, but something about this one had caught my eye.

Hmmm! Something about that one? I have a hunch that this is very significant. One theme to TOU was Quinn having trouble accepting his sexuality... Perhaps that's Ryan's issue?

Although Ryan may be having problems accepting his sexuality, his situation certainly doesn't mirror Quinn's. Ryan is, afterall, pretty much out. No, I think that Connor selected this one because he himself identifies with Jude.

[Boxerdude]

Your analysis is insightful as always. Hope you don't mind if I piggyback on some of your comments.

 

There is an inherent conflict in Connor's relationship with Maggie and it is this internal struggle that influences his thoughts in this segment. On the one hand, he wants to be left alone. He was abused by his biological mother and forced to not only fend for himself, but to serve as the "man of the family", working to provide a "roof over their heads". Connor sees himself as an adult and expects to be treated as one.

On the other hand, Conner is still a child and he seeks and indeed craves affection. This is a basic instinct that we never really outgrow, but that is particularly active when we're young. Conner wants freedom and he wants to be loved and protected at the same time.

 

I don't get Connor's reaction at all. I don't see anywhere where Maggie was treating him like a little kid.

 

Oh I completely understand Connor's reaction here. As greatful as we all feel Connor should feel for Maggie taking him in and giving him a home, their relationship has been very distant. In fact, her relationship with her own sons seems distant as well and I think that this will play a major role in Chapter 26. In other words, there's a lot of backstory here that we haven't seen yet. Now to us, the objective 3rd parties that we are, Maggie isn't treating Conner as a kid, but to Connor, any restrictions at all on his freedom or privacy are seen as treating him as a kid. He's been used to being on his own for several years now, after all. In this particular case, Maggie was being unusually motherly - something we haven't really seen much before, so it probably made Connor feel really uncomfortable.

 

Now this shows real character on Connor's part IMHO. Very commendable IMHO, and perhaps a good way of alleviating some of his discomfort as well.

 

I tend to disagree with you here. I just think that Connor is used to providing for himself and being provided for makes him feel more like a kid than an adult. Come to think of it, isn't adolescense all about resolving this inherent conflict?

 

I think this is very meaningful: On what grounds, EXACTLY, is Connor criticizing Maggie in regards to her parenting of Toby and Ryan? To me it looks like he criticizing her lack of involvement, which would IMHO be very significant as he seems to strenuously object to that very same involvement. I'm reminded of the old saying "You can't have it both ways."

 

I think you're missing the point here. Oh, I agree with the absurdity of this dichotomy, but I also somehow think that Connor would be more accepting of Maggie's parenting of him if he saw that she was also parenting Toby and Ryan. In other words, she's failing to be a good mother to Toby and Ryan, so how dare she try to be a parent to him.

 

OK, now THIS I find very significant and portentous! It looks to me like Connor is have a realization regarding his own feelings for Ryan. Now, the question is, will Ryan have a similar realization? There is after all still the big, unresolved question of WHY Ryan acted the way he did.

 

I think you're getting very close to the crux of things, the Puzzle of Ryan's behavior is the real clue, and the key to their getting back together. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think that Connor has been taken in by a family that was dealing with serious issues long before he came on the scene. If I had to guess, I would say that things really fell apart when Toby first developed leukemia - perhaps that on top of a bitter divorce.

 

So in conclusion, I think the real issue is how Maggie and her family dealt with Toby's leukemia the first time around and the echoes that have resulted from its recurrence. Maggie turned away from her sons as a way of dealing with potential loss and Ryan simply withdrew. Add to that Mike's death and Ryan pushed Connor away to avoid the possibility of even further loss.

 

I expect that we'll see this largely resolved in Chapter 26, but as in real life, not everyone will be healed at the end of the story.

 

Nice analysis, C James! Oh, and BTW, I loved No Shirt, No Problem.

Hmmm! Something about that one? I have a hunch that this is very significant. One theme to TOU was Quinn having trouble accepting his sexuality... Perhaps that's Ryan's issue?

 

Although Ryan may be having problems accepting his sexuality, his situation certainly doesn't mirror Quinn's. Ryan is, afterall, pretty much out. No, I think that Connor selected this one because he himself identifies with Jude.

 

I have been very quiet up till now, but I will put my 2 cents worth in. If we take ourselves back, to when Ryan and Connor where a couple and things were good, the family was very together. Now that there is a rift, the family is not. I think that Connor has become the glue that pulls them together. I don't think it is Maggie or Connor alone, I think it is the dynamic of the family as a whole. Ryan and Connor, have an effect on the family as a whole. Ben, does not have any effect on the family, only on Connor. Connor deep down inside does not want to loose Maggie, he may act that way, but he knows with out her he would be lost. Ryan is the key, and Connor has the ability to use the key to unlock all of the doors. This seems obvious to me, but maybe I am just a romantic. Ryan's reactions may have changed, but his heart did not, other wise he would not be hurting. Connor's heart has not changed or he would "be in love" with Ben. Reconciliation comes with a lot of pain and I must say it is never easy and can take a lot of time to get over. But, "Love Conquers All" ,true love that is, and I think they have that. Communication has been the issue not love, it is the telling of the heart each has not been willing to do. Those walls will come tumbling down once the heart speaks. I to think Ryan is still the hero in this story. He pulled Connor out and now it is time Connor pulled him out. That is what love does. It does not give up, it continues to try and it continues to give. If they truely love each other, they have no choice. Believe me, I know. I have no choice either. I would fight for Mike until I die. We have had good times and bad times, but my love for him is that deep. That is real!! It is not fiction. I hope LB does justice to that.

 

David

Edited August 11, 2006 by Boxerdude

[C James]

<Connor insisting on paying Maggie>

I tend to disagree with you here. I just think that Connor is used to providing for himself and being provided for makes him feel more like a kid than an adult. Come to think of it, isn't adolescense all about resolving this inherent conflict?

 

I don't disagree with you here, but I still think it was very commendable of Connor to do this, as it IMHO shows character and a lack of selfishness on his part.

 

I think this is very meaningful: On what grounds, EXACTLY, is Connor criticizing Maggie in regards to her parenting of Toby and Ryan? To me it looks like he criticizing her lack of involvement, which would IMHO be very significant as he seems to strenuously object to that very same involvement. I'm reminded of the old saying "You can't have it both ways."

 

I think you're missing the point here. Oh, I agree with the absurdity of this dichotomy, but I also somehow think that Connor would be more accepting of Maggie's parenting of him if he saw that she was also parenting Toby and Ryan. In other words, she's failing to be a good mother to Toby and Ryan, so how dare she try to be a parent to him.

 

That's a good point!

 

One thing that I wonder about though: The story is as seen from Connor's POV, so, are we really getting a clear picture of Maggie's parenting of Ryan and Toby?

 

I think you're getting very close to the crux of things, the Puzzle of Ryan's behavior is the real clue, and the key to their getting back together. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think that Connor has been taken in by a family that was dealing with serious issues long before he came on the scene. If I had to guess, I would say that things really fell apart when Toby first developed leukemia - perhaps that on top of a bitter divorce.

 

I agree with all of the above, except for one minor nit-pick: What divorce? Maggie is widowed, not divorced. However, IMHO, that's an even stronger argument for your contention.

 

Nice analysis, C James! Oh, and BTW, I loved No Shirt, No Problem.

 

Thank you, Altimexis!

[Lacon]

Hi Everyone. I've been away for a few weeks, so it was nice to catch up on this story. I really enjoyed Ch 25. So many of the recurring themes are returning. I thought it was totally logical to see Connor have a panic attack, and to see those old insecurities resurface. I loved that it was Ryan who returned to his old form to 'rescue' Connor.

 

Like many of you I've wondered what happened to Ryan. i just don't understand why he shut down. By definition this type of story is about flawed characters with hidden secrets, just like real life. It's interesting that most of us seem to accept Connor's flaws (panic attacks, control issues, mother issues), and Toby's flaws (particularly the cruel way he pushed Cody away in the hospital), but we don't want to give the same consideration to Ryan. I think he is a truly good person in a world of pain. He has ADD and often can't handle things when the walls close in. He had to watch his Father die and then watch his Brother almost die - twice!!! He rescued Connor, but couldn't protect him from being raped. He was a coward and didn't help Mikey when he was needed most. Now he probably feels partially responsible for Mikey's death. I think that the pain in his life has made him feel that he needs to be the rescuer. Unfiortunately people who try to rescue everyone, and control everything, are doomed to failure in the real world.

 

Although it has been enjoyable to see Connor's progress throughout the story, even with the setbacks like in this chapter, I really wish that I would get to see Ryan take the same emotional journey. I think he is a truly good person and he deserves to get past this pain and face the next chapter in his life, with his true love Connor at his side.

[Altimexis]

I agree with all of the above, except for one minor nit-pick: What divorce? Maggie is widowed, not divorced.

 

That's what happens when you get lazy and forget why Ryan's father isn't in the picture. Thanks for the correction. And you're right, this strengthens my original argument.

[AFriendlyFace]

I know I started reading this story a bit late (as in, after chapter 25 had been posted), but I did manage to catch up, mostly due to extra time from being sick ( ).

Welcome to the forum, Aurric! We're really glad to have you here . Also I hope you're fully recovered and feeling well now

As I've been reading the story though, probably not unlike most other readers, I've been putting faces to the names I see as their personalities develop. But, instead of thinking what stars would be best for the role, I've actually been putting faces I remember from high school into roles....

 

...One thing I've noticed, is that I kept putting myself into the role of Conner.

That's very interesting. It's quite amusing to try to imagine people you really know in these roles. Thanks for giving me something to think about. Also I think it's pretty common to see yourself in the role of one of the main characters. I don't see much of myself in Connor, but I do empathize with.

 

I'm with Aurric on this one. I put myself into the role of characters in stories that I read, but in this one I fantasized about being Ryan. I imagine being the savior, the protector, the hero. Of course, I am not like Ryan in real life. Maybe physically I am (tall and athletic), but Ryan has so many good qualities that I wish that I had (self confidence, kindness, coolness). At least in the first 16 chapters Ryan had those nice qualities.

 

After Ch. 16 something happened to Ryan and he started transforming, loosing all those nice qualities. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want Ryan back to "normal".

I think perhaps on one level Ryan can be seen as an extreme dichotomous embodiment of the strength and weakness which lies within us all. Most people are of course both good and bad at all times; Ryan seems almost to have gone from wholly good to wholly bad. you say you want Ryan "back to normal" and yet surly the realest and normalest Ryan is one who is fully integrated. Both exhibiting strength but not desperately trying to burry all weakness.

 

Although Ryan may be having problems accepting his sexuality, his situation certainly doesn't mirror Quinn's. Ryan is, afterall, pretty much out. No, I think that Connor selected this one because he himself identifies with Jude.

Yes, I've never really bought that Ryan is having issues with his sexuality. Perhaps he is, but I just don't think so. I can't really see Connor as Jude though. I guess I can see some similarities if I look for them, but I see Jude and Connor as fundamentally different types of people.

 

One thing that I wonder about though: The story is as seen from Connor's POV, so, are we really getting a clear picture of Maggie's parenting of Ryan and Toby?

Exactly what I wondered.

 

Like many of you I've wondered what happened to Ryan. i just don't understand why he shut down. By definition this type of story is about flawed characters with hidden secrets, just like real life. It's interesting that most of us seem to accept Connor's flaws (panic attacks, control issues, mother issues), and Toby's flaws (particularly the cruel way he pushed Cody away in the hospital), but we don't want to give the same consideration to Ryan.

I think it's because Connor and Toby's behaviour is easier to understand. It isn't that mysterious (we're in Connor's head after all and Toby's actions were pretty transparent as well). Ryan on the other hand is keeping everyone guessing. It might not be so much that we're more reluctant to accept that Ryan is flawed so much as we're reluctant to accept his flaws without a readily understandable reason.

 

-Kevin

[VTicarus]

Yes, I've never really bought that Ryan is having issues with his sexuality. Perhaps he is, but I just don't think so. I can't really see Connor as Jude though. I guess I can see some similarities if I look for them, but I see Jude and Connor as fundamentally different types of people.

 

I wonder if Uncle Sigmund would tell us that, sometimes, a story is just a story. I am beginning to think Connor read TOU as an example of how a person can make their issues even worse by failing to deal with them.The outcome may include both good and bad results - but overall openness and honesty takes away the pressures of uncertainty. This would also be a life lesson of his own experience. I don't think he saw a connection beyond that in the characters.

[NickolasJames8]

If anything, Connors more like an Owen(TLW) and Ryan's more like a Quinn, but not in a 'I'm in the closet and can't come out' way....more like a, 'I'm not that good of a friend or a boyfriend so I'm going to stay in my room and withdraw from everyone' way...I mean the similarities are there....Quinn was violent with his best friend, Ryan mercilessly beat Connor when they broke up.....Quinn went into a deep depression and withdrew from everyone and broke it off with Marrissa and tried to make her sound like a witch, and Ryan trecherously turned his back on Mikey and caused his death when he withdrew from everyone.

Connor reminds me of Owen because he was finally able to escape an abusive situation(only to move into another one temperarily) and be open about his sexuality, plus be beat up trent mc lomax, and Owen beat up Dennis, and they were both deserved beatings. Of course, Aiden never abused Owen, but they're two different stories

[Altimexis]

If anything, Connors more like an Owen(TLW) and Ryan's more like a Quinn, but not in a 'I'm in the closet and can't come out' way....more like a, 'I'm not that good of a friend or a boyfriend so I'm going to stay in my room and withdraw from everyone' way...I mean the similarities are there....Quinn was violent with his best friend, Ryan mercilessly beat Connor when they broke up.....Quinn went into a deep depression and withdrew from everyone and broke it off with Marrissa and tried to make her sound like a witch, and Ryan trecherously turned his back on Mikey and caused his death when he withdrew from everyone.

Connor reminds me of Owen because he was finally able to escape an abusive situation(only to move into another one temperarily) and be open about his sexuality, plus be beat up trent mc lomax, and Owen beat up Dennis, and they were both deserved beatings. Of course, Aiden never abused Owen, but they're two different stories

I see where you're coming from, but the reason I think that Connor identifies with Jude is because they both had at least somewhat abusive parents and Connor has had to be independent for most of his life. Yes, Owen was abused by his father and forced out of his own house, and he was taken in by his loving brothers as Connor was taken in by Maggie and her sons, but there the similarities end. I think that maybe you're investing too much meaning in the role of Connor's and Ryan's sexuality and not enough in the other conflicts that make up family life. Jude's being out and living on his own and being independent had less to do with him being gay than with the fact that his parents never loved him. In that regard I think that Connor is very much in the same boat. So I stick by my original post on this - Connor chose this story because he identifies with Jude, and besides which, TOU is a lot shorter to read in one night than TLW.

 

Oh, and by the way, I may be an "old man" compared to you, but I can read small type just fine.

[Boxerdude]

I see where you're coming from, but the reason I think that Connor identifies with Jude is because they both had at least somewhat abusive parents and Connor has had to be independent for most of his life. Yes, Owen was abused by his father and forced out of his own house, and he was taken in by his loving brothers as Connor was taken in by Maggie and her sons, but there the similarities end. I think that maybe you're investing too much meaning in the role of Connor's and Ryan's sexuality and not enough in the other conflicts that make up family life. Jude's being out and living on his own and being independent had less to do with him being gay than with the fact that his parents never loved him. In that regard I think that Connor is very much in the same boat. So I stick by my original post on this - Connor chose this story because he identifies with Jude, and besides which, TOU is a lot shorter to read in one night than TLW.

 

Oh, and by the way, I may be an "old man" compared to you, but I can read small type just fine.

 

Would some one get me up to speed on who Jude, and all the other characters you are refering to are. I feel totally lost in this conversation. I am a newby. : )

[NickolasJames8]

Would some one get me up to speed on who Jude, and all the other characters you are refering to are. I feel totally lost in this conversation. I am a newby. : )

You havent read The Ordinary us by the King of Kings yet???