Here's possibly the strangest question you've heard all day

[PatrickOBrien]

So, this is something that I've been mulling over in my head for a while now...and it's kind of important for a story I'm writing...

 

Here's the question:

 

If a man has a clone, and both he and his clone have a son with two different women, if the sons had sex, is it incest?

The man and his clone are NOT actually brothers. They have the EXACT same DNA. Is that essentially what a twin is? A naturally occurring clone? Genetically the sons would be brothers, even though their mothers and fathers are different people. Does this make them cousins?

 

And if the sons who had never met each other DID get together, would that be really weird? I mean, it's not like they can make a baby, so there'd be no negative effects in that regard. But still, would that be like reading an incest story? I don't know.

 

Would definitely appreciate feedback.

 

^_~

Edited July 20, 2007 by wrathofmagneto

[Krista]

Hey,

 

Yes, I believe it is the strangest question I've read all day... lol.

 

With that said, I also believe it would be Incest, an incest story as well if you choose to have the sons become romantic. As they are clones, so the four characters mentioned would be extremely related. The Sons would be kind of like... cousins, but not exactly.. lol.

 

Edit: Suggestion: They'll all look similar - well the fathers would look the same, and it would be a "weird family portriate" type of story. The Cloning idea is pretty interesting and somewhat original to use, but I personally wouldn't write them in a romantic sense. Maybe a struggle for a true identity. I don't know if the Cloned fathers know of one another though, so the way they became clones and found one another would be a story in itself really. Maybe a switch in identity, if one clone and his family is more successful?

 

If the Romantic 'son' approach is the whole reason for writing the story then the suggestion wouldn't help much.. lol. Just adding a third and/or fourth character for the sons to fall in love with other than each other would make it a non-incest story...

 

 

Krista

[Graeme]

Definitely incest. Incest is defined by the biological relationship -- essentially by the DNA. Since they have the same father DNA, they would be half-brothers, and hence any sexual relationship would be incest.

 

Even without that, they have, by definition, the same grandparents on their fathers' side, and so you get incest from that, too. Incest is not just the immediate family -- it's incest between cousins as well as siblings.

[dbaggins]

I agree with the above comments.

 

But I think the real question is: if a man has a clone and he has sex with that clone...is it incest or masturbation?

 

Interesting idea for a story though.

[Bondwriter]

Another question: if two half-brothers, not knowing they're half-siblings, engage in a romantic relationship, it's incest, yes, but is it wrong? Can they go on, or does the social taboo linked to incest endanger their relationship?

[Gil Andrews]

This is indeed the strangest question I have been asked today. I have to agree that it would be incest. Sleeping with anyone that shares your families genetics can only be that, be it clone or otherwise. Would it be weird for two half brother/cousin clone people to have sex? Personally not to me. If it were a girl/boy situation, I would find that weird. I know it sounds kinda contradictory on my part but two boys or two girls are not going to produce off spring that will be uhhhh defective(?).

 

So yeah, incest. Totally.

[x Trevor x]

This is definetly a weird question lmao yes it would be incest. Seeing as the two men are clones then the two boys would also be clones in a way the only difference would be their looks due to having seperate mothers. Now what you could do is turn it into a mystery of some sorts. Say the clone had plastic surgery to look like the man therefore the sons are in no relation and that would work if you want it to be non incest and also the mystery of clones motive would be very interesting and different

[Krista]

Another question: if two half-brothers, not knowing they're half-siblings, engage in a romantic relationship, it's incest, yes, but is it wrong? Can they go on, or does the social taboo linked to incest endanger their relationship?

 

 

If they didn't know they were half brothers and had a romantic relationship it would still be incest biologically, but no one would hold it against them, but after they found out and continued the relationship then the social taboo would come into play and would hinder the relationship. I would think the half brothers would feel completely shocked, but the romaticism before the knowledge would still be there... as it's a human feeling and not a biological one. It would just be frowned upon socially if they continued the relationship. So yes it would be wrong then.

 

Krista

[Andy]

Yes, it would be incest.

Yes, that is a social taboo.

But how much of the writing on this site ISN'T a social taboo somewhere.

 

 

p.s. Not all twins have the same DNA, some have half, or none of the same.

 

{edited to add} Okay... not.. NONE of the same.. unless it was from like implanted fertilised eggs from someone else, plus your own. and they came to term at the same time and... yeah.. {/edit}

Edited July 20, 2007 by Andy

[Rigel]

If they didn't know they were half brothers and had a romantic relationship it would still be incest biologically, but no one would hold it against them, but after they found out and continued the relationship then the social taboo would come into play and would hinder the relationship.

 

If you look at the Oedipus story--perhaps the ultimate original incest tale--

Oedipus doesn't know that Jocasta is his mother when he woos her and has sex with her--

he only finds out after the deed, and then blinds himself with guilt.

 

Said Oedipus high on his throne

When Tiresias made his deeds known

An incestuous fling

Is a family thing--

It's such fun to come into one's own.

 

--Rigel

[JamesSavik]

This has got to be the kind of future/biotech questions that give Vatican think tanks ulcers.

 

They have problems dealing with mundane issues like abortion and gay rights. Wait till they get a load of genetically engineered love slaves.

 

Anywho...

 

Incest? I dunno. Maybe.

 

Icky? Definitly!

[shadowgod]

The sons would in effect be half brothers, just as if the original man had a relationship with the two women with out the presence of a clone. Is incest taboo from a gentic standpoint. Yeah inbreeding creates faults in the genetics just like making a facsimilie of a facsimilie breaks down the graphic quality. That is the scientific argument against incest.

 

However I dont think societies Taboo has its roots in the scientific, moreso in religeous morality, but that is a mute arguement as any 'thing' that is created and not born is considered in whole by the church to lack a soul.

 

Would the question be better worded; Is it wrong for two people to become romantically involved when they had no prior knowledge of their relation?

[BeaStKid]

Incest definitely....As mt thoughts have already been read and put in a very astute manner already, I won't go further.

 

Personally, I have nothing against incest. It would be hypocritical of me to say that incest is bad because I believe that what these guys do in their bedrooms is their choice....after all Gay Rights Groups have also argued our point in the same way...

 

Gay sex is as bad as incest in the eyes of society. But we have no problems gay sex because we indulge in it. Similarly, two brothers (or sisters or even brother and sister) who are in love and are in a physical relationship don't find anything wrong in their relationship.

 

So, for people like us to say that incest is bad would be hypocritical in an itsy bitsy teeny weeny way!!

 

Just my two cents

 

The BeaStKid

[Graeme]

So, for people like us to say that incest is bad would be hypocritical in an itsy bitsy teeny weeny way!!

Incest is typically banned because the majority of such relationships are male/female and the risk of genetically damaged offspring is high (I met one many years ago -- a nine-year-old that was wheelchair bound and had the mental age of a one-year-old. He was the child of first cousins). As such, I support the taboo.

 

The issue of same-sex incest is more difficult to challenge as there is no chance of genetically damaged offspring arising. As such, it has to be argued on social grounds. The best argument I can come up on the spur of the moment is that it would discriminatory to allow same-sex incest but disallow mixed-sex incest. However, even I'm not really convinced by that argument. I think cross generational incest is wrong on principle, but, while I'm uncomfortable with same generational same-sex incest, I can't think of a strong reason to prohibit it.

[shadowgod]

I think cross generational incest is wrong on principle

 

definately agreed.

 

For some reason I find this whole plot Idea facinating, maybe in the way it challenges conventions, and possibly sheds light on a problem that will arise sometime in the distant future. I think its a rather visionary idea to tackle. I only fear is that the author will be put off by the verbatum "icky' response he has recieved.

 

Which is worse the instance he puts forward, or, two step siblings who develop a intimate relationship?

 

I find the latter a bit more jarring just on the grounds of they know who they are. With the question posed the two involved wouldnt know of their relation and its doubtful that the clones would know of eachother (im guessing?) So there would be no liniage familiarity. SO Im ok with it. I would read any such story and recognize it as the tragady it is.

 

Steve

[jfalkon]

That is a weird question but it is not as far fetched as it sounds. There are many people who were born from gonated sperm or eggs. At least here in the US, the donor is anonymous. There are many people who have half brothers or half sisters they do not know about. It is entirely possible for someone to fall in love with a half sibling without knowing it.

 

As far as twins go, there are two types. Fraternal twins are just like any other siblings except they share a birthday. They each originated from an indivigual fertilized egg. The other type of twins are identical twins. They originate from one fertilized egg that splits and produces two individuals who share the same DNA. Identical twins are esentialy clones. This is slightly oversimplified. Biologists have found slight genetic variations between some identical twins but the variations are small.

 

The romantic involvment could be an interesting and shocking twist. It could be a source of conflict or a way of allowing the characters to show their true colors. I think most people would be a little uncomfortable with the idea. That could be good or bad depending on your purpose.

[Krista]

Hey,

 

Yes, I would feel bad if anything I said made the author discouraged about an idea. The idea is an original and I wouldn't want what I said hinder his creative thought or ability to finish what he started or trash the idea. There are so many angles we don't know about the story in question, what we can base our opinions on is the question asked. From a fictional sci-fi romance/tragedy standing story I would see it as a strong idea where Taboos of society would be challenged, but not hinder the story's readability. My opinion is Sci-fis aren't modern they are alternative and imaginary with less limitations of the mind or opinions compared to Modern stories.

 

 

Besides - The Independent Film Channel (IFC) shows movies that are far more socially extreme than what the author asked about. It just seemed to me that the author himself wasn't comfortable with the idea, which is why I made the suggestions in the first place.

 

Krista

[PatrickOBrien]

Wow...thanks SO much for all the feedback! The idea is for my story "Tangled Web", which is a fan-fiction set in the Marvel Comics universe...I was unsure of whether I wanted the "brothers/cousins/whatever they are" to be the main romance of the story, or find separate boyfriends. After reading all the responses, I think I know which way I'm going to go.

 

MAN! The ideas you guys put forth are SO good! Now I wish this wasn't for a fan fiction, because it feels like it's going to cheapen the emotional impact of the moral conflict. I don't know, maybe I'll adapt Tangled Web into something more realistic, and get out of the comic book world.

 

Thanks again for your feedback! Hehe, the question has just been bugging me for a while, and I was wondering what your thoughts were.

 

^_~

[Adrian Michaels]

OMG, I love Tangled Web... yay!!

 

And another OMG to the question... haha. I'm not gonna comment because so many other people have, but it was really interesting to think about...

 

One of my family friends was talking about who someone he works with just married a woman, and somehow, through other marriages in the family, he has just become his own grandfather... And I'm not kidding...

 

There's no incest involved, bust just people divorcing, and then remarrying people in the family... Its very twisted, and I can't think of exactly how it went. But this question reminded me of that.

[Conner]

I agree with the above comments.

 

But I think the real question is: if a man has a clone and he has sex with that clone...is it incest or masturbation?

 

Interesting idea for a story though.

 

 

I just couldn't not acknowledge your great sense of humour! The discussion was getting way too serious.

 

Graeme, the next time all the Cardinals (not the baseball team) get together to blow smoke out of the chimney of the Sistine chapel, I nominating you for Pope.

 

Yes, it's incest and I would definitely read the story. It's good to take social taboos out of the closet now and then and take another look. Open, honest and respectful discussion is never a bad thing.

 

Conner

[Ieshwar]

Incest is firstly wrong on a biological level. Brothers/sisters or similar relationship is definitely not recommended. But it has also an impact on the psychology, if I'm not wrong. So having a relationship with your brother/cousin won't be the same as having a relationship with a non-relative.

 

And BeaStKid, gay sex doesn't harm anyone (the ones practicing it and there's no one produced ) But incest does (on biological and psychoogical level) those practicing it and the offsprings.

 

And the case about half-brothers not aware of their reltionship, I won't call that incest. But after they learnt it, it becomes difficult and I believe, it depends on the person himself. Coz it's up to him of the love or romance is more prominent that the feeling of incest.

 

 

Ieshwar

[glomph]

The idea is for my story "Tangled Web", which is a fan-fiction set in the Marvel Comics universe...

 

"Tangled Web"? Spiderman has a clone?

[Graeme]

Graeme, the next time all the Cardinals (not the baseball team) get together to blow smoke out of the chimney of the Sistine chapel, I nominating you for Pope.

Wow! I thought the nominee had to be a Cardinal, too, but that may be a tradition, rather than a requirement. I do know that you have to be a Cardinal to make a nomination, so thank you, Cardinal Conner.

[Luc]

I

[Lugh]

take everything I'm about to say in the light that it is coming from the guy who did a bit more than just date his nephew in college...

 

 

when dealing with half-siblings (which is essentially what the children of clones are no matter if they occur naturally (via twinning) or unnaturally (in a futuristic laboratory)) knowledge is the key. If they are unaware they are related then they are innocent of any taboo/law breaking. If they are aware, well taboo breaking is not a bad thing really... I feel the same goes for any family member where one member of the family is raised seperately from the rest (such was my case).

 

Unknowing, consentual Iincest between the offspring of a clone and the offspring of the original, to me, is not icky. If they are both males, or both females, it is still not icky if they do become aware. However it is when the mixed-gender relationship comes into effect that it becomes a legal issue.