Snow Days

[kitten]

This is usually only for a day as most muncipalities and cities and towns all make bus routes the highest priority for sanding, plowing and graders (by the way Kit, is gritters the name for what we call graders. Always interesting to see different terms for the same thing).

 

Mmmm - I don't think they are the same thing, as that pic you link to looks preety high tech.

Maybe our gritters are more like your sanders? Basically they are trucks loaded with a mixture of grit and salt, and they have a device at the back that sprays that mixture onto the road.

 

I see what Jack is saying though. Maybe in the future as train switches need changing out, why not put in better ones that can accomodate a bit of cold and snow. Even if it is only needed one day a year, than it would be most likely worth the cost.

 

Ah! now you're expecting Network Rail to be sensible?!

NR is one of the the botched results of privatisation of our old British Rail. Withr the privatisation the unified body of BR was broken up into bits. The track was owned by the predecessor to NR but the trains etc were owned by franchise holders, different franchise holders being on different parts of the network.

 

The privatisation made lots money for the original big investors, then the private company that was predecessor to NR, even though it got billions in government subsidies, basicaly went bust, was then made into NR which is supposed to be private but still gets lots of money from the government. Anyway, NR couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, and not too long ago was fined because faulty maintenance caused a crash that killed lots of people.

 

So, bearing in mind that it can't be relied upon to maintain ordinary points safely, I think that you are being over-optimistic if you think they would have the foresight to instal precautionary ice-resistant points!

 

Kit

[demic]

I Like the pictures demic, but that's hardly enough to justify a day off school!!! I have at least a couple more centimetres outside my door.

 

I know, it doesn't seem like much most of the snow has melted. That's just what hasn't completely gone in my garden. I'm back to school tomorrow , buses are running fine now the roads are gritted all there is now is just slightly dangerous bits of ice around. It's ranining tomorrow or Firday, but there may be a chance of more snow!

 

And yes it is a Sainsbury's trolley, I completely forgot it was there until I uploaded them lol.

[Graeme]

2) My experience is that it's very rare that snowfall causes such disruption in UK cities. Certainly it doesn't do it every year and even this year, the worst for 18 years, it's only for 2-3 days. Most years we don't get more than more than a few cm of snow totalled over the whole year, and it rarely stays on the ground for more than a couple of days. If you have real figures that contradict my experience, please produce them.

I lived in the UK for twelve months and, naturally, it snowed (the day after Christmas day, though, so we missed out on a white Christmas). One of the locals was fond of telling us Australians that even though it snows every year, Brits don't know how to drive in the snow. It causes disruptions each year as a consequence. Since I was commuting regularly from Birmingham to Southampton for the job I was doing, I got see first hand the difficulties that resulted from icy roads (something I haven't experienced in Australia )

 

I was living up in the Midlands, though, so I suspect it's different in other parts of the country. Southern England probably doesn't get much snow, but the northern parts get more and more regularly.

[demic]

I see what Jack is saying though. Maybe in the future as train switches need changing out, why not put in better ones that can accomodate a bit of cold and snow. Even if it is only needed one day a year, than it would be most likely worth the cost.

 

Yeah it would...if it snowed heavily even once a year. London and it's surrounding areas haven't had snow like this in 18 years, and I think it was a lot longer ago that it was regular to have it each year.

 

 

In Mississippi, snow and ice are rare. We get snow/ice storms about once every 2-3 years.

 

When we do get it, we're paralysed until its over.

 

Back in the day it used to mean party- we'd get whatever (OK booze & weed) and pile into a house with a fireplace.

 

At one of these snow-parties an orgy broke out that we weren't really prepared for. lmaosmiley.gif

 

You'ld be amazed at what you can use olive oil for.

 

Best thing I have heard all day, sounds like a pretty fun party

Edited February 4, 2009 by demic

[MikeL]

Maybe our gritters are more like your sanders? Basically they are trucks loaded with a mixture of grit and salt, and they have a device at the back that sprays that mixture onto the road.

Here is a picture of what we call a salt truck...

It could be used to spread grit and salt together, but rock salt is used here. I used to live in a city that spread coal ash (clinkers) on snow or ice. Cars could get traction but the cleanup was a mess.

 

We also have tanker trucks which spray brine on the pavement before a snow or ice event.

[wildone]

Here is a picture of what we call a salt truck...

It could be used to spread grit and salt together, but rock salt is used here. I used to live in a city that spread coal ash (clinkers) on snow or ice. Cars could get traction but the cleanup was a mess.

 

We also have tanker trucks which spray brine on the pavement before a snow or ice event.

 

 

Yeah, we call them sanders or sanding trucks. What they spread varies from area to area. In my city they use sand and salt mixture, where as in Calgary they use a rock chip and salt mixture. My trip to Calgary last week has the huge crack in the windshield to attest to the fact they use rock chips .

 

Most of our sanders have a blade mounted under the truck, just behind the cab, and usually is sufficient to take care of normal snow fall plowing. It is in the really big dumps that they hook up the front plows to the trucks like the highways ones always use.

 

I guess that would be a good question for your UK officials. How much is an attachment for a plow or to drop a sander/gritter into the back of a dump truck would it really cost? It is not like you are buying a specially built truck for the use of snow removal/cleaning.

 

BTW, the graders are mainly used in construction for grading or leveling ground, but work excellent on pavement for scraping ice and snow.

Edited February 5, 2009 by wildone

[Jack Frost]

3) I don't know where you get your claim that the BBC has the same sort of reports 'every year' . Every year since when? Please provide evidence. (Brits love to complain about weather. It is one of our favourite hobbies and the main topic of conversation between strangers).

That is why I am wondering if they're overhyping it or not. But my impression is that they go into chaos over a few centimetres of snow (not over a long-term, but when it falls).

 

5) Basic economics. Putting measures in place that have to be paid for during the whole of winter every year is a waste of money when they wouldn't be used every year and even in years they are used they would only be used for a few days. Losing a few million pounds every 18 years really IS cheaper.

It still doesn't explain why... conductors operating a train weighing thousands of tonnes freak out over a "dusting" on the railway tracks. I figured the signalling system is not cold-resistant. It does go below freezing in southeastern England a few years per year, so it's a normal thing. Getting signallings to be slightly more resistance by a few more degrees C isn't much of an extra expense.

 

But as you've said, privatization may be a factor getting silly railway services.

 

6) Brits as individuals quite rightly don't even think it's worth their money to buy snow chains and snow tyres for their cars, so why should we want the government to waste our tax money on national measures to combat the rare effects of snow?

An investment in snow chains might be better than spending a few hundreds of pounds getting your car towed out of a ditch after slipping on a patch of ice. And if you're unlucky enough, a few more hundreds of pounds to get your bent-tire realigned. I know your snow ends up as slush (mix of wate and ice) and it seems not to uncommon. Black ice (clear ice on wet black road not not easy to be visible), especially at night. I hit one of those at 25 mph and slammed my car to the curb. Bent the tire. What seemed to be a minor repair turned out to be a $2000 one because the metal frame under the engine got bent as well. Sadly, my dad deemed the car unworthy to fix and dumped it at a mechanic shop. I was very pissed off because he had no right to give up the car under my name and so on. He lied to me about it too. I'm still bitter because even after four years, I'm still without my own car. I would've had it fixed myself if it means to preserve my mobility not restricted by my parents (when they let me use their cars, conditions apply... ).

 

7) Even if it had been economically worthwhile in the past to invest in measures to combat the rare effects of snow, in the future it is ecpected that we will get even less snow (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1951084.stm), so it certainbly isn't worthwhile investing now.

I heard many arguments, several of which seem plausiable. Weather-predicting is still an inexact science and it's sometimes a pain to know whether if the forcasters are talking out of their ass or not.

 

8) Brits not only love to complain about weather, they love to use it (and any other excuse) to take a day off work. Thus lots of fuss has been made of the snow here - it helps to justify a day off work.

I know it's sweet to justify a day off from work and enjoy a day of rest, but it might not look for those working at a company undergoing a workforce reduction in this time of economic difficulty. Showing up to work when 1/4 of the employees didn't do so give you character and putting work as one of your priorities. I'll have to say, hopefully those companies won't have to look at "*Blizzard* of 2008 Attendence List" as a factor whether to lay off an employee or not. Even public workers from Whitehall refused to walk a couple blocks to the House of Commons for work. Now c'mon... :s

 

+++++

 

Since everyone is showing off snowtrucks...

 

Montreal's snow-removal equipements.

 

Sidewalk plowers. It's my dream to drive one of those babies.

 

 

Baddest of all snowblowers.

 

 

Then we have graders, snow plows with salting capacity, salthing trucks, bulldozers, and dump trucks going up to 50 feet long and 10-12 feet high.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Jack Frost

[Dalmatia]

I still find it ridiculous that our country isn

[kitten]

It does go below freezing in southeastern England a few years per year, so it's a normal thing. Getting signallings to be slightly more resistance by a few more degrees C isn't much of an extra expense.

But as you've said, privatization may be a factor getting silly railway services.

 

If you think the way that the railway deals with snow is silly...

not too long ago (about 4 years??) trains on one line were brought to a halt because of leaves on the rails. It was pointed out that as we have leaves falling every autumn (fall) they should be set up to deal with them. The response from the rail company was "But it was the wrong kind of leaves".

EH!!!!????!!!!

 

An investment in snow chains might be better than spending a few hundreds of pounds getting your car towed out of a ditch after slipping on a patch of ice. And if you're unlucky enough, a few more hundreds of pounds to get your bent-tire realigned. I know your snow ends up as slush (mix of wate and ice) and it seems not to uncommon.

 

Again you are being sensible.

The average Brit motorist might not be so forward thinking or they may have the attitude that "We bloody well pay taxes to have the local council keep our roads clear, so why should we have to buy snow chains?"

(As an aside, don't snow chains damage a road if there is no snow?)

 

I know it's sweet to justify a day off from work and enjoy a day of rest, but it might not look for those working at a company undergoing a workforce reduction in this time of economic difficulty. Showing up to work when 1/4 of the employees didn't do so give you character and putting work as one of your priorities. I'll have to say, hopefully those companies won't have to look at "*Blizzard* of 2008 Attendence List" as a factor whether to lay off an employee or not. Even public workers from Whitehall refused to walk a couple blocks to the House of Commons for work. Now c'mon... :s

 

Ah, but if more than 75% of the workforce doesn't turn up, then they feel safety in numbers - unless all 75% get laid off. They also realise that if the company lays people off, the first to go will usually be the employees with little or no entitlement to redundancy pay (temps, part timers, or those who've been employed there for the shortest time). A recent employee who turned up on a snow day will be cheaper to lay off than a long term employee who took the day off.

 

Also, despite the decrease in the power of unions in the last couple of decades, the workers themselves are still a bolshie lot . Some of them would rather go on strike over some imagined grievance and stand outside in a blizzard in protest rather than actually go in to work. Did you read about the recent wildcat strikes over the supposed unfair employment of foreign contractors at a Total refinery? Workers hundreds of miles away went out on 'sympathy' strikes, despite the fact that the unions didn't back the strikes.

 

Now I think you maybe begin to see why such a big deal is made over a little snow?

People get to take a day or two off work AND they get to complain that it is all the fault of someone else. The more fuss you make, the more justified you are in not going to work.

 

BTW - what exactly is a grader? Is it in one of the pics you posted?

 

Kit

[kitten]

I still find it ridiculous that our country isn't better prepared for snow. I also hate the excuse that we hardly ever get snowfall like this and it's not worth the cost. You wouldn't buy a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm just because the chances of your home or business burning down are slim would you? No you would take the precaution because it's possible. Just as in winter it's possible that it might snow. Once the equipment is brought and paid for it really wouldn't cost very much just to maintain it and store it for when something like this does happen.

 

It really IS a question of economics. The smoke alarm ot fire extinguisher is MUCH cheaper than having your house burned down, even if no one is killed. People really have worked out how much it costs to buy and maintain snow clearing equipment, plus paying people to maintain them and to be available for just a few days every couple of years. They can calculate how much business is lost and how much it costs and have decided it isn't worth it. Anyway, with all the money the government has been spending to bail out rich bankers, where are they going to find money for snow ploughs?

 

It is worth the cost just for the fact that it means people aren't putting their lives at risk. Also it freezes in the UK every year, it might not snow but the roads still freeze, especially out here in the countryside and the council and government never do anything about it, and when they do it tends to be after someone has had an accident because they were too cheap to grit the roads on a night that was warning freezing.

 

Sadly, on an economic level, lives are not worth very much.

That is why we allow thousands to die every year from tobacco and alcohol - the cost of the deaths is much less than the revenue in taxes. That is why NICE decide that some life-extending anti-cancer drugs are too expensive for the NHS. Resources are limited and there isn't much economic value in a human life (especially that of someone who is ill).

 

Kit

[Emulated]

...I'm back to school tomorrow , buses are running fine now the roads are gritted all there is now is just slightly dangerous bits of ice around. It's ranining tomorrow or Firday, but there may be a chance of more snow!

Did you go back to school today? I didn't. Not after the extra serving of the stuff last night.

 

But while I'm all for snow and snow days , it just seems like the past week has been wasted, rather than it being an extended weekend.

 

Anyway, I took a walk around a nearby park and managed to snap a few photos that I'll try to upload later. Just for those unfortunate few who haven't got any snow at the moment.

[MikeL]

BTW - what exactly is a grader? Is it in one of the pics you posted?

Wildone posted this link to what I call a grader.

[MikeL]

I heard many arguments, several of which seem plausiable. Weather-predicting is still an inexact science and it's sometimes a pain to know whether if the forcasters are talking out of their ass or not.

My personal impression is that weather forecasters are right about half the time.

[demic]

Did you go back to school today? I didn't. Not after the extra serving of the stuff last night.

 

But while I'm all for snow and snow days , it just seems like the past week has been wasted, rather than it being an extended weekend.

 

Anyway, I took a walk around a nearby park and managed to snap a few photos that I'll try to upload later. Just for those unfortunate few who haven't got any snow at the moment.

 

Lucky you, although I only two hours of lessons out of four as I missed the first one and the last was cancelled. I thought I would've used the snow days more constructively but it didn't really work that way.

 

And I'd love to see some pictures, the ice that's left around outside is a little bit depressing. But it's meant to snow tomorrow, sunday and monday! . So the snow may return.

[Daisy]

it is more snow than we've had for a while. yes everytime they do hype it up, but this is more than usual, especially down south where the 'main' centre is and all. about snow chains, I don't think the british know they exist, I certainly didnt until i went to france. and I also don't think that the train lines have had a 'dusting' of snow, there has certainly been more than that.

 

we're in for more over the next few days too, just when I need to pass through london, so I hope its fine this time.

 

also talk about the patterns of snow in england. well they've changed. when i lived in the north west, near the lakes, we had an awful lot of snow then, more than there is now. but that didnt happen everywhere. now there is a tilting towards the south and Ive noticed that the last 3-4 years, since my old home didnt have as much as it used to and there were reports from down south. now we seem to be having more again up north. but equally so and maybe more down south (don't know because they could just be complaining since they are not used to it). where i am now though, north north midlands there IS less than down south.

 

celia

[Eddy]

 

 

Colorado Rocky Mountains offer some awesome winters. In fact, winters are my favorite season. My first winter we had 180 inches of snow fall.

 

The attached photo was taken in the late afternoon of the first day of a 3 day storm -- on the third day we had over 5 feet of snow on the ground. We don't really have school snow days but we do have ski days!!

[demic]

 

Colorado Rocky Mountains offer some awesome winters. In fact, winters are my favorite season. My first winter we had 180 inches of snow fall.

 

:o

[Emulated]

Damn. Eddie had to go ahead and out do me.

 

As I promised earlier, here are a few photos of my local park:

 

 

Edit: I don't know how to make them smaller, but they're located here.

Edited February 5, 2009 by EmulatedLove

[demic]

Those are actually amazing photos, I love the one with the bird feet in the snow it's well cute. What part of th UK are from?

[Emulated]

Thanks!

 

I'm currently live just outside of London, so I'm not that far away.

[demic]

Cool, just wanted know because for some reason the places you took pictures of look quite familiar. Or it could be the snow making it look familiar.

[Former Member]

Colorado Rocky Mountains offer some awesome winters. In fact, winters are my favorite season. My first winter we had 180 inches of snow fall.

I'll have to agree about the Rockies, although I'm on the Utah side.

 

Since everyone else is sharing, I guess I will as well. These were taken last year at the start of a road trip me and my sister took.

 

Pics

 

I especially thought the road sign was funny.

Edited February 5, 2009 by jessiflash

[demic]

jessiflash - That is a ridiculous amount of snow, if that was over here we would pretty much cease to exist!

[TalonRider]

Wildone posted this link to what I call a grader.

That's what I know them as also. About the only time I've seen them used for snow removal, is in the aftermath of a Nor'easter.

[Jack Frost]

The average Brit motorist might not be so forward thinking or they may have the attitude that "We bloody well pay taxes to have the local council keep our roads clear, so why should we have to buy snow chains?"

(As an aside, don't snow chains damage a road if there is no snow?)

They'll know why once they get into a ditch and mechanic shop. Local taxes don't protect them from stupidity.

 

Yes, snowchain can cause unneeded damages to the roads if you use it too much. We keep it in the trunk in case if you're unlucky enough to run into a storm or worsing conditions, we put them on and think about getting home. Salt and plows are also very taxing on the pavement (not sidewalk... the blacktop), so that's why we have to repair or even repave the roads once every few years. If you show a photo of a town, everyone could tell whether the town is in Canada or not just by looking at the quality of the pavement. lol

 

Also, despite the decrease in the power of unions in the last couple of decades, the workers themselves are still a bolshie lot . Some of them would rather go on strike over some imagined grievance and stand outside in a blizzard in protest rather than actually go in to work. Did you read about the recent wildcat strikes over the supposed unfair employment of foreign contractors at a Total refinery? Workers hundreds of miles away went out on 'sympathy' strikes, despite the fact that the unions didn't back the strikes.

I doubt I heard about them, but I did hear about strikers actually making it to the spot to strike during the storm. Eh?

 

Let's just call it typical human stupidity. Not truely just a British thing.

 

 

 

Perhaps I should take photos. Maybe tomorrow. Just because everyone is showing them off. I won't do it today. I've been outside long enough today and it's -20 C at this moment.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Jack Frost