Forum Frauds

[Mark Arbour]

One of the things that pisses me off are people who stroll into this forum (or others...but we're here, so we'll talk about this one) and start throwing bullshit around, claiming to be something they're not. We've seen them before, we'll see them again. I'm wondering how you detect them?

 

The first characteristic they all seem to share is that they're obnoxious. Beyond that, I try to look for other clues.

 

For me, I read what they say, especially when they talk about their occupation. Especially if it changes. For example, a person may claim to be a doctor one minute, a professor the next, then perhaps even an attorney. Who knows? The other thing is their syntax. People who have advanced degrees (Masters or Doctorates) rarely get there without a knowledge of their native language. That means they can write clearly, they can punctuate effectively, and they make very few spelling errors.

 

On the other extreme, there are people who come in here claiming to be 18, 19, or younger, when IRL they're in their 50's. Once again, I find it useful to pay attention to what they say. Most young guys (we'll leave the ladies out of this, at least for now) have adopted a slang pattern that repeats itself. They rarely switch from that language one minute into the language one might expect of a doctoral dissertation the next.

 

Location is another clue. Someone who claims to be from New York yet writes like they're from Shanghai may be a Chinese immigrant, or in fact may be a poser from China.

 

So I'm just brainstorming here, but I'm curious about things you may look for?

[Linxe Termoil]

uhh. anyone who bashes me just gets ignored, because quite simply they just aren't worth my time. Normally if I don't know something in advance I try to find out, if I can't find out, I make it up. If you're gonna be dick, well f**k you and cya later. g'nite

[Graeme]

Without evidence, I tend to go for 'innocent until proven guilty'. That doesn't mean I can't be suspicious

 

I remember one situation where someone claiming to be an Australian teenager used a legal concept that I had never heard of here in Australia. I did some research and found that what they said appeared to have no basis in Australian law! Now, it's possible that what they said was for the American audience and hence they used the closest term to what had really happened, but I'll admit that it made me suspicious.

 

Otherwise, I think it's difficult to spot. Humanity is so varied that exceptional cases can appear as fraud, when they really are just exceptional.

 

Having said that, I look at the number of exceptional situations they've claimed. Truth can be stranger than fiction, but in most cases it's not. If the coincidences pile up, I have to wonder.

 

As a final note, I'm not particularly good at spotting frauds unless they make a blatant (to me) mistake.

[irangel]

Hi Mark,

I think your points for detection are a good start. While it is difficult to determine through someone's profile or self description there is something I've experienced as an "intuitive" gauge; I call it the "words and music don't match." I think one red flag would be behavior, specifically how a person presents themselves via text, not matching the profile. Here literally the words and "music" of the text don't match. Although "role playing" can be a life unto itself, so we don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. By that I mean, some people live full and happy lives through virtual personalities, strange but true, and I am not judging at all. I have friends that have experienced a second life through role playing, almost like the holodeck on Star Trek NG...

 

but I digress

 

As you mention, grammar, syntax and writing ability usually (not always) match to some extent the description/profile/age/stated education. But even if they don't match to a generalized portrait, there is usually consistency in the mode and manner of expression.

Here is where a marker might be found, what is the behavior and what is its purpose/goal.

There is a phenomena in the discussion, blog, opinion, forum worlds of trolling. It's not just trolling for young stuff, some troll for flame wars, i.e. start up a discussion, fan the flames into an all out war between folks in what might have been a happy discussion group and then the troll sits back and laughs. Occasionally, the troll steps back in to kick start the war again. And the troll will sometimes employ multiple accounts or membership names, a "sock puppet" to echo, support or repeat the argument.

 

What to do...it takes a vigilant membership and moderators. I've seen folks here in GA posit opinions that I am vehemently opposed to, but the discussions have been moved to the Right/Left forums, so I don't get my blood boiling. The free and open discussion of ideas I think is fine. freedom of speech and all that...

 

It's the fraud, flame inducing trolls we need to look out for...off with their heads I say...(virtually speaking of course)

While some of these trolls might fake their identity, they have an uncanny ability to figure out people's hot button issues and go to town pushing them. If they find one that elicits an explosion of rhetoric, they laugh the harder, it's not (in my opinion) the argument or point they want to score, it's the bloodbath...

 

but as the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

 

take care,

(having just watched the National Geographic special on the gospel according to Judas, recently authenticated and translated...I will sleep well tonight)

 

One of the things that pisses me off are people who stroll into this forum (or others...but we're here, so we'll talk about this one) and start throwing bullshit around, claiming to be something they're not. We've seen them before, we'll see them again. I'm wondering how you detect them?

 

 

 

So I'm just brainstorming here, but I'm curious about things you may look for?

[Arpeggio]

Oh noes, I'm busted.

 

Truth is, I'm a 50 year old doctor from California.

 

 

Okay, seriously, I tend to poke around with people I am suspicious about and try to get information out of them. Usually, though, I don't really care unless I have future plans to meet them and they don't affect me in any way.

[Daisy]

I don't really think about it at all. It's not a concern that I feel. Maybe I should pay attention more.

 

But I don't. I'm fine just chatting with the occasional person. I like to learn about people's lives, to see life from a different perspective, so maybe I should be more wary if I want to hear real experiences not make believe world.

 

I of course know about internet predators, where they do manage very successfully to pass as something else in theory. Just on here and the places that I Do take part in discussions it seems hard to believe how someone could or want to keep up and build such an elaborate deception. Plus, I don't intend on meeting up with anyone, or sharing too much identifying info, that I just let it slip from my mind as not a concern for me. But again maybe I should, at least be a bit more suspicious. I just like to to take people as they are though, that's my natural instinct.

 

so any more tips?

 

I'm thinking I wouldn't pass your test on punctuation and language for my level of education though. I'm careless, and not that good at it anyway - when I have to write formally it's very stressful and forced.

 

celia

[Arpeggio]

Back to age. most young people exhibit a real enjoyment in the world or mock coolness of not being interested. Young people also think the world is rather simple and exhibit arrogance in the fact that they have it figured out. Especially the ones who have graduated from high school or college. They are ready to take over the world. They tend to blow off people unless they want a real debate and then you can tell it is usually not based on life experiences. They are not wrong, but lots of life experiences do not temper their reasoning. Hard to spot sometimes, but it eventually comes through.

 

Not every young person is like that, just to remind people.

[Toast]

Hi Mark, Hi everyone. I have two identities. Deadsnake and Bugeye. Everyone here has an assumed identity or an avatar. You Mark are a tiger. But in real life I doubt you look must like a tiger. Does that make you a fraud? Do you guys feel like frauds because you all use assumed names? I started out as Bugeye because I wanted to try to write a story. It is very satisfying to write. I enjoy it alot, whether I write well is another issue. At the suggestion of a friend I joined the forum as Deadsnake. I picked that name because I couldn't kill a snake in my garden. And when I would see him I would call him Deadsnake. It was just chance that I picked that name. I was scared to death about saying I was a writer. I am a avid reader. So I didn't tell about the writing. Sorry if you think I was trying to deceive you, I wasn't. I was too nervous to even think along those lines. I have tried to be a good member of GA. I have learned a lot here already. More it seems than I have ever learned in my life. How to take a risk and say hello to a stranger. How to tell someone I like them and their comments. I am sixty years old. It says so on my page. I have posted four pictures of myself. One as a baby, two as a young man and one at I think fifty-four. I have had a full life. I have never told anyone here I was a young man to deceive them. I have never tried to deliberately hurt any one and cause any division among the members of GA. I'm here because I really want to be here and share in what GA has to offer all of us. I would talk to any of you who need me to explain or answer a question about my actions here at GA.

 

Sam

[Daisy]

Hi Mark, Hi everyone. I have two identities. Deadsnake and Bugeye. Everyone here has an assumed identity or an avatar. You Mark are a tiger. But in real life I doubt you look must like a tiger. Does that make you a fraud? Do you guys feel like frauds because you all use assumed names? I started out as Bugeye because I wanted to try to write a story. It is very satisfying to write. I enjoy it alot, whether I write well is another issue. At the suggestion of a friend I joined the forum as Deadsnake. I picked that name because I couldn't kill a snake in my garden. And when I would see him I would call him Deadsnake. It was just chance that I picked that name. I was scared to death about saying I was a writer. I am a avid reader. So I didn't tell about the writing. Sorry if you think I was trying to deceive you, I wasn't. I was too nervous to even think along those lines. I have tried to be a good member of GA. I have learned a lot here already. More it seems than I have ever learned in my life. How to take a risk and say hello to a stranger. How to tell someone I like them and their comments. I am sixty years old. It says so on my page. I have posted four pictures of myself. One as a baby, two as a young man and one at I think fifty-four. I have had a full life. I have never told anyone here I was a young man to deceive them. I have never tried to deliberately hurt any one and cause any division among the members of GA. I'm here because I really want to be here and share in what GA has to offer all of us. I would talk to any of you who need me to explain or answer a question about my actions here at GA.

 

Sam

 

 

I don't think that's what they meant by deception.

I can definitely understand being nervous about other people reading your work, and commenting god forbid .

 

and yeah there is something about being behind a computer screen. there are some people that I would love to actually meet and be real friends with occasionally, or at least have more of a connection than the internet alone can give. But I do like the name thing, but also find it restricting at times. the way that I phrase things, and how that can be interpreted, mistakenly for me but actually misinterpreted. and mostly my fault for leaving things out or not being able to express enough. but then again, that's in real life too. actually recently I haven't used this site or other online forums like I would have. I feel too much of a connection that some things I am feeling and going through now, confusing as they are, I am reluctant to share because like in real life it feels uncomfortable to reveal them, me. whereas before, i used it at times as a place to unburden and try and shake out my feelings when I would have had less of an opportunity in real life, if at all, because I don't know those online or it's removed from life.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Smarties

[Dolores Esteban]

I need not hide. You could phone me and easily verify all the details I gave away about me and my life. I just think our conversation would be hard since my spoken English is much worse than my written English.

 

I now and then stumble across posts that I think are fake posts. I ignore these posts. I don't really care.

 

 

[Daisy]

I now and then stumble across posts that I think are fake posts. I ignore these posts. I don't really care.

 

I think you're getting at what I meant more than how I said it. I spend time interacting with those that I have taken to or respect or that sort of thing. I generally ignore the rest. I just didn't attribute it to 'fakeness' but things like bullshitters, and the such. The same I would do in real life I suppose.

[gardentuber]

One of the things that pisses me off are people who stroll into this forum (or others...but we're here, so we'll talk about this one) and start throwing bullshit around, claiming to be something they're not. We've seen them before, we'll see them again. I'm wondering how you detect them?

 

The first characteristic they all seem to share is that they're obnoxious. Beyond that, I try to look for other clues.

 

Mark,

 

I'm not following your point... or you seem to be making several points... 1) there are people who participate on this forum who present themselves differently from who they are in their physical, mundane life. 2) people who are sh*t disturbers are wankers and don't warrant our attentions.

 

The first point seems self-evident... this is the internet and most of us will never meet one another so a little embroidery (or a whole cloth variation of embroidery) isn't that bad. That people lie about themselves when they participate in a forum is an established fact and has been for a decade or more.

 

That people love to stir things up is an annoying fact of boards and is why moderators have such an important role. Thank you GA moderators!!!

 

Trying to suss out the perpetrators (I almost wrote "perps", but that seemed a little too Law and Order... ) is a form of sport I suppose. Is this thread a request for other's methods of discerning the falsifiers?

 

So, what brings this up? Is it the flaming that bothers you? Is it that people aren't exactly as they appear? Is it the process of figuring them out that has you curious? I'm not certain what you're looking for in this thread. Then again, maybe the elevator doesn't reach my attic.

[TetRefine]

Louisiana Writer, just to point this out as Lacey already did, not all young people are arrogant and blind to the ways of the world. Many of us have had tough life experiences at a young age. While we may not have all the experiences older people do, many of us aren't completly blind to the way the world works. Making that generalization about all young people shows you're arrogance and the fact that you will just take the easy way out by lumping us all into one group.

 

Maybe my post is a little off topic, but I thought it needed to be said.

Edited November 8, 2009 by TetRefine

[Aeroplane]

I try to respond to what the poster has said, not who they are.

[Daisy]

I try to respond to what the poster has said, not who they are.

 

yep, again saying what I think I do too.

[Arpeggio]

Ugh, I just realized how many times I get called a fraud on the net. On my VF account, people are always demanding salutes (pictures with your name written on you hand) to prove you aren't stealing someone else's photos and such. It's so tiring, but if I don't give them salutes, then they boot me from the clubs and guilds. It's so tiring.

 

I don't like fakers as much as the next person, but I don't feel like I need to constantly prove who I am all the time. I don't have to prove a thing, actually. People can either believe I'm real or not. lol

 

Rant done. =D

 

(I like this topic a lot)

Edited November 8, 2009 by Arpeggio

[abbillion]

I don't like fakers either, but once this old guy called me a "game playing twink" just because I wouldn't show him a pic when we were chatting right at the beginning. He was insulting and made many sexual references towards me so I ignored him.

 

It is really difficult to spot these people as they are pro's at hiding their identities. One should actually feel sorry for them. They don't have lives.

[Mark Arbour]

Oh noes, I'm busted.

 

Truth is, I'm a 50 year old doctor from California.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but I wish you'd quit posting pictures of me and telling people it's you.

 

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

Louisiana Writer, just to point this out as Lacey already did, not all young people are arrogant and blind to the ways of the world. Many of us have had tough life experiences at a young age. While we may not have all the experiences older people do, many of us aren't completly blind to the way the world works. Making that generalization about all young people shows you're arrogance and the fact that you will just take the easy way out by lumping us all into one group.

 

Maybe my post is a little off topic, but I thought it needed to be said.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I work with college-aged people every day, and I find them to be full of optimism. Life hasn't kicked them in the balls yet (most of them) so they look to the future with a smile, with hope. It's so motivating and inspiring.

 

 

I try to respond to what the poster has said, not who they are.

 

You make a great point, but let me offer a clarification to where I think it's an issue. I just posted above that I work with young people daily. I've told people before that I'm a prof. So when I assert something, I would expect that you'd want to put it in context. In other words, when I'm throwing out anecdotal stuff, you have to believe who I am and know me well enough to treat what I'm saying credibly. With empirical stuff, I think it's easy to focus more on just the words.

[JamesSavik]

Well... I'm real. Who else could or want to be as obnoxious, evil and cynical as me and be consistent about it? Who would want to be?

 

Who else would take red hot needles and poke you in your misconceptions or occasionally kick you in your shaky premise? Some people call me the 's advocate, troll, a-hole but guess what? They are all right.

 

It's my manifest destiny to piss you off if you are smug and think that you have it all figured out.

 

As a veteran forum warrior I've seen the liars, the frauds, the cheats, the Walter Mitty's and horny old geezers hitting on kids and the kids pretending to be 14 going on 24.

 

It's all a part of the anonymity that the internet provides. Some people will be real while others will lie like a clock.

 

That's one of the cool things about this place. We've had several gatherings where our members have met in RL (real life).

 

I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of people from the forums in RL.

 

So... we know who is real and, given time, bullshitters will out themselves.

[Mark Arbour]

I Sometimes you have to sift through pages of what someone wrote to get to the real heart or meat of what they are saying.

 

Louisiana Writer

 

Good point. Although that's probably a good topic for another thread: How to be less verbose and more pithy.

 

 

 

[Mark Arbour]

Hi Mark,

I think your points for detection are a good start. While it is difficult to determine through someone's profile or self description there is something I've experienced as an "intuitive" gauge; I call it the "words and music don't match." I think one red flag would be behavior, specifically how a person presents themselves via text, not matching the profile. Here literally the words and "music" of the text don't match. Although "role playing" can be a life unto itself, so we don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. By that I mean, some people live full and happy lives through virtual personalities, strange but true, and I am not judging at all. I have friends that have experienced a second life through role playing, almost like the holodeck on Star Trek NG...

 

but I digress

 

As you mention, grammar, syntax and writing ability usually (not always) match to some extent the description/profile/age/stated education. But even if they don't match to a generalized portrait, there is usually consistency in the mode and manner of expression.

Here is where a marker might be found, what is the behavior and what is its purpose/goal.

There is a phenomena in the discussion, blog, opinion, forum worlds of trolling. It's not just trolling for young stuff, some troll for flame wars, i.e. start up a discussion, fan the flames into an all out war between folks in what might have been a happy discussion group and then the troll sits back and laughs. Occasionally, the troll steps back in to kick start the war again. And the troll will sometimes employ multiple accounts or membership names, a "sock puppet" to echo, support or repeat the argument.

 

What to do...it takes a vigilant membership and moderators. I've seen folks here in GA posit opinions that I am vehemently opposed to, but the discussions have been moved to the Right/Left forums, so I don't get my blood boiling. The free and open discussion of ideas I think is fine. freedom of speech and all that...

 

It's the fraud, flame inducing trolls we need to look out for...off with their heads I say...(virtually speaking of course)

While some of these trolls might fake their identity, they have an uncanny ability to figure out people's hot button issues and go to town pushing them. If they find one that elicits an explosion of rhetoric, they laugh the harder, it's not (in my opinion) the argument or point they want to score, it's the bloodbath...

 

but as the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

 

take care,

(having just watched the National Geographic special on the gospel according to Judas, recently authenticated and translated...I will sleep well tonight)

 

 

 

 

Your post kind of got buried in the responses, but I wanted to mention that I thought it was very good, and that you made some excellent points.

 

 

[irangel]

Your post kind of got buried in the responses, but I wanted to mention that I thought it was very good, and that you made some excellent points.

 

 

 

thanks Mark,

appreciate it

[Y_B]

The first characteristic they all seem to share is that they're obnoxious. Beyond that, I try to look for other clues.

 

Bitch pleeeazzeee, don bee hatinnnnn

 

 

For me, I read what they say, especially when they talk about their occupation. Especially if it changes. For example, a person may claim to be a doctor one minute, a professor the next, then perhaps even an attorney.

I've never claimed to be anything other than who I am, which is a doctor-lawyer in space.

 

Who knows? The other thing is their syntax. People who have advanced degrees (Masters or Doctorates) rarely get there without a knowledge of their native language. That means they can write clearly, they can punctuate effectively, and they make very few spelling errors.

I gotz me some good edumacation wit my PH to tha D a coupla yeres ago. Ain't no thang but a chiken wangggggg

 

On the other extreme, there are people who come in here claiming to be 18, 19, or younger, when IRL they're in their 50's. Once again, I find it useful to pay attention to what they say. Most young guys (we'll leave the ladies out of this, at least for now) have adopted a slang pattern that repeats itself. They rarely switch from that language one minute into the language one might expect of a doctoral dissertation the next.

 

Wachu talkin bout fool, I be right otay buhweeeetttt........I mean uhhhh....Yes, indeed. The concept of language intrigues me, even though I am aware that I will likely never grasp the dizzying psychological complexity of linguistics.

 

Location is another clue. Someone who claims to be from New York yet writes like they're from Shanghai may be a Chinese immigrant, or in fact may be a poser from China.

 

You want wonton? I bring you wonton. You want soy sauce?

[Zapp]

Without evidence, I tend to go for 'innocent until proven guilty'. That doesn't mean I can't be suspicious

 

I remember one situation where someone claiming to be an Australian teenager used a legal concept that I had never heard of here in Australia. I did some research and found that what they said appeared to have no basis in Australian law! Now, it's possible that what they said was for the American audience and hence they used the closest term to what had really happened, but I'll admit that it made me suspicious.

 

Otherwise, I think it's difficult to spot. Humanity is so varied that exceptional cases can appear as fraud, when they really are just exceptional.

 

Having said that, I look at the number of exceptional situations they've claimed. Truth can be stranger than fiction, but in most cases it's not. If the coincidences pile up, I have to wonder.

 

As a final note, I'm not particularly good at spotting frauds unless they make a blatant (to me) mistake.

 

I remember an instance where I had my location in my profile, and I was added on MSN I think by an Australian teen claiming to live in my city.

 

So we were talking and I casually ask if he's NOR or SOR (North/South of the river, our city is cut in two by a large river and when you meet someone the first question is generally "Are you NOR or SOR?"

 

Anyway this guy is all like "Ummm is <SUBURB> North or South?"

 

I instantly blocked him on the basis that nobody living here could possibly not know something like that.