Paternity

[Westie]

Looking and acting like an adult has nothing to do with emotional maturity. it has been reiterated over and over that Will looks like an 18 year old not that he acts like an 18 year old. Even 18 year olds are pretty immature still and a 14 year old is that much more immature. In the same way that a lot of gay men can act straight, a 14 can act like an adult, but that is just what it is, acting.

 

All anyone needs to do is think about how much they changed, grew and matured from their freshman year in high school to their senior year in high school and then again from their freshman year in college to their senior year in college. And again how much you mature from leaving to school to working your first career job.

 

I agree with Tim to a point. Maturity is gained often as a result of experiences. Recent experiences aside (which were the result of emotional derailment anyway), how mature can a kid who grew up getting whatever he wants be?

[centexhairysub]

Really enjoyed the latest chapter of Paternity, I was glad that the Senator won re-election. I thought there was quite a few great father/son moments during Wade's visit home. I do think that the Senator and Elizabeth are about to have some really intense changes in their dynamic. I can't see a divorce coming yet but there is going to be big changes; of course since he just won again, the Senator would have six years to get the voters use to a divorced candidate. I think that the Senator is going to start taking Wade's side more directly and this is going to bring the conflict more out into the open. It really seems to me that Elizabeth has way more to lose than anyone else involved; SEC, FTC, FEC, and maybe even criminal charges if everything she has done just recently came out. I really don't understand her endgame with Wade; does she really need his money for something or is it all about control???

 

I do think that Wade will let JP know what Sean told him. I don't think that Wade really wants to be in the middle of a Crampton civil war but he will feel the need to let JP at least know what is going on; this may have been Will's plan all along.

 

Brad has just never been one of my favorite people in the series. I have always found his need to be Top Dog slightly annoying. Several people here seem to believe that age is the great determining factor for maturity and as usual I disagree. I think that Will is already more mature at 14 than Brad was at 17, although this is not a huge leap. But in some ways, I think Will is already more mature than Brad is at his current age in the story as well. Do I think that Will is fully emotionallly and mentally mature, hell no... But I don't think that the fact he is 14 and from a privileged background makes him any less mature than some working class rednecks are at 40 years of age, I am surrounded by lots of those guys. I wasn't but I have known people that at 14/15/16 were much more mature and together than their parents were at twice the age or more. I just don't believe that age is the great maturing factor than some people seem to view it as, experience has a much bigger role to play at least in my opinion.

 

Will is not my favorite person in the series, of those close to his generation Wade, Matt, and even JJ are more interesting to me. That being said, the animosity that Will seems to generate among some of the readers is just astounding to me. I swear, Will could be working on an experiment in marine biology and stumble across something to cure cancer and some people on here would find fault with how long it took him to cure cancer... Sure Will can be a snarky little brat at times but I know 40 year olds that can be the same way; I have to wonder what people are reading into Will from their own lives that make him such a target of animosity???

[B1ue]

Centex, I find myself agreeing with basicaly everything you said, although Will is one of my favorite charcters, right up there with Claire.

 

I do wonder why the question of maturity keeps coming up. Is it that we're defining it differently? Because, to me, Will has already demonstrated and continues to demonstrate the maturity of at least the average eighteen-year-old. He is willing, not out of anger or spite but out of cold, and correct, calculation to stand up to his parents, say "I'm sorry you feel that way," and walk away. Don't you all remember how hard that is? To be able to set aside the willingness to follow your parent's directives and do what you know is right for yourself? Brad and Robbie seem to give Will the perfect life, but one of the themes of all of CAP is that the perfect life has some damn long strings attached, and WIll is not willing to play that part any more. I don't think he's handling this well, I don't think he's making the correct choices, but I can't help but admire his reasoning. He's not defying his parents over, say, a lover, or an unfair curfew, or overbearing pressure. Therre is a real threat to his safety and well-being, and he can no longer trust Brad or Robbie to take care of it for him. So he's doing it himself. Not only that, but he's going about it logically, learning from his previous experience, and seeing to it that not just Jeanine but Brad, Robbie, and EVERYONE ELSE will have no further hold over him.

[PrivateTim]

I think that Will is already more mature at 14 than Brad was at 17.....

 

Several people here seem to believe that age is the great determining factor for maturity and as usual I disagree.

 

Sure Will can be a snarky little brat at times but I know 40 year olds that can be the same way

 

I do wonder why the question of maturity keeps coming up. Is it that we're defining it differently? Because, to me, Will has already demonstrated and continues to demonstrate the maturity of at least the average eighteen-year-old. He is willing, not out of anger or spite but out of cold, and correct, calculation to stand up to his parents,

 

I am dumbstruck by this "Will is mature", "Will is more mature at 14 than Brad at 17".

 

Less than six months ago a naked 13 year old Will was ejaculating on a stage in a gay club, got drunk and high on a school trip risking expulsion, then destroyed tens to hundreds of thousands worth of personal property belonging to his fathers and finally ran away?

 

Blue and Centex, please point out where Brad had similar actions in Be Rad. How is what Will did "controlling" his anger? His anger seemed rather out of control to me. Those actions alone are reason enough no judge would ever grant him an emancipation even if he had parental approval.

 

Age and maturity are not automatic, but 99.999% of the time maturity comes with experience and experience comes from age. Are either one of you trying to say you think you were just as mature your freshman year in high school as you were as senior year in high school? Was it the same for all your friends maturity level? And did you have the same level of maturity your freshman year in college as you did your senior year in college?? Heck, by the end of my freshman year in college I was much more mature just by the fact of living away from home and having to be completely self reliant when it came to getting to class, getting assignments done, etc.

 

Just become some people are immature at older ages does make it the norm, it is the outlier.

[GLH]

Frankly, I think Will is acting pretty damned rational given he's still suffering from PTSD. When any one of you have been raped and abused as Will has then come back and talk s***.

[Mark Arbour]

Centex, I find myself agreeing with basicaly everything you said, although Will is one of my favorite charcters, right up there with Claire.

 

I do wonder why the question of maturity keeps coming up. Is it that we're defining it differently? Because, to me, Will has already demonstrated and continues to demonstrate the maturity of at least the average eighteen-year-old. He is willing, not out of anger or spite but out of cold, and correct, calculation to stand up to his parents, say "I'm sorry you feel that way," and walk away. Don't you all remember how hard that is? To be able to set aside the willingness to follow your parent's directives and do what you know is right for yourself? Brad and Robbie seem to give Will the perfect life, but one of the themes of all of CAP is that the perfect life has some damn long strings attached, and WIll is not willing to play that part any more. I don't think he's handling this well, I don't think he's making the correct choices, but I can't help but admire his reasoning. He's not defying his parents over, say, a lover, or an unfair curfew, or overbearing pressure. Therre is a real threat to his safety and well-being, and he can no longer trust Brad or Robbie to take care of it for him. So he's doing it himself. Not only that, but he's going about it logically, learning from his previous experience, and seeing to it that not just Jeanine but Brad, Robbie, and EVERYONE ELSE will have no further hold over him.

 

Wow. That was amazingly insightful. Just, wow.

[Hermetically Sealed]

Will is not my favorite person in the series, of those close to his generation Wade, Matt, and even JJ are more interesting to me. That being said, the animosity that Will seems to generate among some of the readers is just astounding to me. I swear, Will could be working on an experiment in marine biology and stumble across something to cure cancer and some people on here would find fault with how long it took him to cure cancer... Sure Will can be a snarky little brat at times but I know 40 year olds that can be the same way; I have to wonder what people are reading into Will from their own lives that make him such a target of animosity???

I can only speak for myself, so take this for what it is; just my opinion. I don't expect others to agree, nor do I expect Mark to change his stories to suit my expectations. It is merely me explaining where I am coming from.

 

I didn't really start off disliking Will. In fact, before PMS I hoped he'd eventually become a narrator, but for me the way he seemed to usurp PMS, and for seemingly no reason other than to be Gathan's gay stand in, just left a bad taste in my mouth. Partly it was because of his age and felt it a bit exploitative (though I know that was not Mark's intention), and partly because his story felt completely separate from Gathan's so it was like watching one show, while someone else kept flipping to another during commercials. Then, that someone refused to flip back, and the original show was forgotten. (Not saying that is what happened, just how it felt to me.)

 

Now while I didn't care for Will's story in PMS, but I didn't hate him. Not yet, at least.

 

With Paternity, I think the dual narrator has flowed better; the stories mesh better (or maybe just intersect more often), and the switch seems smoother. So I don't really feel Will is an interloper like before. However, I just find his personality, and the reactions of other characters in this story to be repulsive.

 

I don't see him so much as "mature for his age," as I feel that Brad and Robbie's characters have been sacrificed in order to manufacture drama for no purpose other than to make Will interesting. Will's excuses feel forced, and Brad's transformation doesn't make sense to me, even when factoring that we are seeing this from Will's point of view. It just seems artificial. It's like those teen stories where all the adults devolve into abusive, controlling morons, or are just utterly incompetent. Meanwhile, the kids, unfathomably, are always right and constantly schooling the adults on every issue. Even as a teenager I found such setups annoying. And it just feels like the character changes keep getting more extreme to the point that nothing can salvage them and yet be believable.

 

Again, I know that isn't Mark's intention, it's just how Will's story has felt to me. I think part of my hatred for Will is fueled by my own frustration, as I have never felt like this about any of Mark's stories. What probably would normally just be a mild dislike for the character instead is amped up a bit more. I guess one thing I can say about Mark's stories, they always make me feel something. And I'll be honest, very few authors can make me this invested in their stories or characters.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Hermetically Sealed

[PrivateTim]

I think that is all really good insight. I actually like Will, like Will as a narrator, but I just am not in love with "Will the Great and Impervious" as some seem to be.

 

I agree with the insight that Brad and Robbie have become cartoonish in order to be Will's foils.

[Hermetically Sealed]

You know, I don't even think Brad's behavior (seen through Will's eyes) would have seemed too bizarre to me had these events happened in the beginning, or middle of Millennium. I think it's just because of the awakening he had about his own behavior in that story (and partly PMS) that has given me problems. Robbie gave me problems to start with, but not so much lately.

[Mark Arbour]

Something to ponder: I don't get why there's this feeling that Brad and Robbie have become mere foils for Will. As someone quite astute pointed out sometime earlier in this thread, we are seeing things through Will's eyes, so he's bound to view them with a relative amount of disdain when dealing with their crap. In the current situation, Brad has some reasonable arguments to back up his position. Is he right? Personally, I think he's right about some things, but not about others. He and Will are viewing things differently. I don't think that makes Brad and Robbie reprehensible.

 

I can totally see where Brad was coming from in the "Michael" situation. He knew that if he made a big deal out of it, that things, as many of you pointed out, would undoubtedly bounce back onto Jeanine. He also knew that JJ wanted to forget the whole thing and move on. And he also realized that having the guard of a world-famous figure skater (well, marginally famous) take pornographic pictures of that skater would probably be newsworthy, and that those stories would have a significant negative impact on JJ. His decision, to hush the whole thing up, makes sense from that standpoint.

 

The other family members, including Will, view it a little differently. They don't understand how Brad can let Michael get away with doing that to JJ and Will, and they don't understand how Brad can let this guy walk away, only to probably perpetrate the same things onto some other kid. But the thing that pisses all of them off, and really gives them solidarity, is the way Brad made these decisions in isolation. When Will says he's demanding a place 'at the table', this is what he's referring to. It drives him crazy that Brad is sneaking off behind a curtain (metaphorically) to then make these big decisions about his life, without being allowed to provide any meaningful input.

 

Where's the reprehensibility here?

[GLH]

Given Will's history I'll tend to be pretty forgiving so long as his 'character flaws' are credible depiction of common symptoms displayed by sexual abuse victims. In fact, if anything I'd have to say that Will is handling everything better than most do. It appears to me that the majority of the clan could stand a little compassionate enlightenment.

[sat8997]

The Darkside vs Rainbow Kisses...the sequel.

 

 

*Poodle, you are awesomness personified.

[B1ue]

Age and maturity are not automatic, but 99.999% of the time maturity comes with experience and experience comes from age. Are either one of you trying to say you think you were just as mature your freshman year in high school as you were as senior year in high school? Was it the same for all your friends maturity level? And did you have the same level of maturity your freshman year in college as you did your senior year in college?? Heck, by the end of my freshman year in college I was much more mature just by the fact of living away from home and having to be completely self reliant when it came to getting to class, getting assignments done, etc.

 

To answer this point, I was not as mature my freshman year of high school as my senior. I certainly was as mature, and did not really change as a person, from the time where I was about 17 to about 26, and that's kind of a stretch to say I really changed at about that point. Partly because what you mention as what you needed to be completely self-reliant about, assignments, getting to class, etc, I can't remember a time I wasn't taking care of arrangements for all of that on my own. Kindergarten I assume I wasn't, 1st and 2nd grade I was in an afterschool program, but by 3rd I was a latchkey kid that knew better than to ask my parents for extra stuff like sports or to review my homework. Living away from my parents and family frankly did not bother me in the slightest, it just was not the big deal that it was for some of my peers. In that regard, and with a couple experiences where I was able to gauge my relative emotional reaction compared to other teenagers my age and older, I was able to handle that aspect better at 14 than some did at 18.

 

I can think of several people that were as mature as freshmen in highschool that they were by the time they graduated, and not always to their discredit do I say that. As you said, they were outliers, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. And since the sample size of people I can honestly say I knew well enough during over the course of that time span to make that kind of evaluation is quite small, I can only assume 99.9% is a bit pessimistic. They are also mostly female, so I would guess the relatively earlier puberty has much to do with it. I was a late bloomer myself, and was blissfully ignorant of my sexuality at 14. That also might be part of what's driving Will, he's dealing with his sexuality at an age when many guys are barely figuring out masturbation. He's not always dealing well, you brought up the pole dancing incident for example, but he seems to learn from his mistakes when he realizes they were mistakes.

 

And, now that I think of that specific instance, I'm having a difficult time classifying it as all that bad. What, exactly, was the downside to doing this? So he proved he was sexy, to himself and others. Nothing wrong with that. Stef got an eyefull. Not intended, but not really a big deal. It didn't leak back to his school back home, no one is labeling him a slut because of that. Aside from the damage to his relationship with Brad, when quite honestly Brad shouldn't get the final say on what Will does with his body at any age (and if you want to argue with that, try telling someone like Wade that a father always knows best), no real harm was done. It could have been, yes, but any action Will takes that indulges in his own sexuality carries that burden. He's sexy, and like being sexy. People, including his parents, are going to have problems with that.

 

It's one of the themes of the whole story, really. There are limits to how much paternal/parental authority being a parent automaticly grants you. Brad, Robbie, Jeanine, the Danfeilds, Stef and JP are all learning this. JP and Brad I find especially interesting, because Brad is taking the same control over his own life and family from his father that he's trying to stop Will from grabbing. And just like I find myself siding with Will, to a certain extent I also side with Brad. JP, Stef, and Claire might not like it, but Brad and Robbie (with, ideally Jeanine, WIll, and JJ getting a say) get to make those calls, not them.

[PrivateTim]

And, now that I think of that specific instance, I'm having a difficult time classifying it as all that bad. What, exactly, was the downside to doing this? So he proved he was sexy, to himself and others. Nothing wrong with that. Stef got an eyefull. Not intended, but not really a big deal. It didn't leak back to his school back home, no one is labeling him a slut because of that. Aside from the damage to his relationship with Brad, when quite honestly Brad shouldn't get the final say on what Will does with his body at any age (and if you want to argue with that, try telling someone like Wade that a father always knows best), no real harm was done. It could have been, yes, but any action Will takes that indulges in his own sexuality carries that burden. He's sexy, and like being sexy. People, including his parents, are going to have problems with that.

 

13 year olds do not belong in clubs with adults. You may be too young to remember when Arena was an all ages club, but I do. You'd go in on a Friday night and there'd be 13 year old boys mixing in with guys much, much older and I came to know several of those 13 year olds later when they started hitting Tiger Heat and those clubs. To a person everyone had bad, bad stories about what happened to them and how in retrospect they felt exploited and abused even in relationships that at the time they consented fully to the relationships. Research is showing more and more that juveniles are incapable of making prudent and rational decisions and have been the basis of the Roper and Miller decisions by the Supreme Court.

 

I can't think of anyone who has ever had a child thinking that it would be healthy for their 13 year old to be in a club like Will was. And Will isn't a young innocent discovering sex with his peers like John and Ryan, he is engaging adults as well and he is being over the top in promiscuity. Maybe Jeremy can provide us with the total number of partners Will has had already. I think the number would be stunning for someone barely 14.

 

In general, not Will specific, how much decision making power over their own life does the average 14 year old, 9th grader have? Not a lot and that is for a reason. As to Will specifically, was his decision making leading up to the Norway trip mature? Was his behavior on the trip mature? I'm gonna say no. If your behavior is such that it is the buzz of a skating competition, that is probably not a good thing.

[B1ue]

Generalities don't matter. They don't matter in real life, as you can't base how you interact with someone based on a statistical analysis (though I understand the state has to try, and don't mind it there), and they really don't matter in literature where every detail of the entire universe is what ever the author pleases it to be. It's especially true for literature that case-by-case judgements have to be created.

 

Does anyone honestly think that WIll, as written, is going to feel exploited in a couple years? It's possible, that autthorial whim might sway that way, but I rather don't think it's going to be the case. And even if it does, it was Will's call to make that mistake that caused him to feel exploited. Recognizing those pitfalls are a part of growing up, and at no point have I argued that he's done growing up. Mature for his age, yes. In my opinion, he now has the mental and emotional maturity to go along with his body, though I wouldn't say he's much past where I, for instance, was at 17.

[centexhairysub]

I am dumbstruck by this "Will is mature", "Will is more mature at 14 than Brad at 17".

Less than six months ago a naked 13 year old Will was ejaculating on a stage in a gay club, got drunk and high on a school trip risking expulsion, then destroyed tens to hundreds of thousands worth of personal property belonging to his fathers and finally ran away?

 

Okay, Will was ejaculating on stage at a gay club; but this was about two weeks after being kidnapped and raped and as a therapist, I can just about promise he was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and should have been in therapy and not vacationing in Rome. Whether he realized what he was doing or not, Will was trying to take back control of his life and sexuality. Do I think it was completely healthy, no, but was it a sign of immaturity, no. His parents, especially Brad and Robbie, shoiuld have realized you don't just get over something like what happened in Paris and send him on to Rome on holiday. I seem to recall Brad having sex in the dunes on the beach with I believe Lark, maybe it wasn't in a crowded club but it was in public.

 

OMG, on a school trip, a 14 year old had the chance to do drugs and drink and hell, he did both... Call Ripley's; Will was part of a group that did both, while I don't condone the behaviour, once again, this isn't a sign of immaturity but ritualized behaviour that the vast majority of teens go through and survive. Plus, Will had the presence of mind to analyze the situation and realize he would not get in as much trouble as Ryan and acted to protect him, really how childish of him. All throughout Be Rad, Brad partakes of drugs and alcohol. Need we rehash the mushrooms at the planetarium?

 

And now we look at the destruction of his parents belongings; Will never really got any help to cope with what happened in Paris and then his parents leave him with a completely unacceptable individual that they obviously didn't do enough checking up on... This individual instead of working to help Will, physically attacks him and puts him in a sexual situation that just brings up all the issues in Paris back. Once again, do I think it was handled correctly by Will; no, but at this point he was suffering a real breakdown and their was no family there to help him. Brad ran away with Robbie because Robbie's mother wanted him to get therapy and cure the gay away, do I think this works, no... That being said, Brad reacted like a spoilt brat and instead of trying to work things out ran away because he wasn't getting what he wanted. In addition, Brad ran away from several other situations in Be Rad, whenever he didn't seem to get what he wanted. Unlike Will, who at least makes some attempt to face the situation and stand up for himself, Brad just runs away from the situation and divides his family and friends. Brad physically beat up his little brother enough to rupture his testicle and put him in the hospital for outing him and Robbie; this after Brad purposely outed another guy and tried to ruin his life because he was afraid he might out him, oh yes, that is a sign of great maturity.

 

I don't really even paticularly like Will. As I previously stated he is not even in my faves for his generation or those close to him; the issue I have is that some people seem to really hate Will. Most of Will's behaviour issues can be traced to outside sources, not the least being kidnapped and raped, and yes what happened in Paris was rape. From a clinical standpoint, Will's behaviour would not be viewed as immaturity but derived from outside sources of origin. From a clinical standpoint, Brad's behaviour would be viewed as more immature or even regressive than Will's is in this story.

 

P.S. I forgot to get into the number of sex partners. Including the rapist in Paris, I can count eleven without going back and re-reading anything. This maybe slightly off but I don't think by much. From a purely statistical standpoint this is above average for a 14 year old male. That might change though if you look at physically mature gay 14 year old males. Maybe sex at an early age is just more prevelant in Texas now and in the past than it is in California or other areas because several people have expressed suprise at the number and variety of partners Will has had. The ones that would concern me, other than the forced encounter, are those more than three or four years older than him.

 

I guess it will brand me as a slut, but I grew up in rural Texas and was Will's age in 1980; I had already exceeded the count that I have for Will by several as had most of the kids around my same age. Maybe it was just a more sexualized time, but I really don't think so; maybe we were all just bored because there was nothing else to do, but I don't think so; I think everyone matures sexually at a different rate and there can be several factors that contribute to this.

 

On a professional level, I would be concerned about the number and be looking for reasons behind it and I do think there are several. That being said, the number of partners one has doesn't indicate a paticular level of maturity or lack thereof.

Edited August 19, 2012 by centexhairysub

[PrivateTim]

On a professional level, I would be concerned about the number and be looking for reasons behind it and I do think there are several. That being said, the number of partners one has doesn't indicate a paticular level of maturity or lack thereof.

 

It seems to me all you are is an enabler. You have a ready built excuse for everything Will does.

 

There was no indication that Will had anything on his mind in that club other than he was digging that people dug him. Are you really telling me that as a mental health professional you think a gay club is a healthy environment for a 13 year old? "Not completely" is a pretty sly way of giving approval.

 

As to the raft trip. It is normal for teens to drink and do illicit drugs in high school, what is immature and downright stupid is to do those things and then go to school (the idiots who show up to a school dance drunk, like the staff won't notice" or do it on a school sponsored trip. THAT is immature because you do not have the maturity to know it is a really, really, really bad idea that can have serious consequences.

 

Will already had his plan in mind long before the Marine guy showed up. Brad did not run away with Robbie because he was a spoiled brat, he (they) ran away because they did not see any other option to an immediate threat to Robbie. Will had lots of options, his lack of maturity led him to follow a completely out of control, irrational path.

 

I'll look to Jeremy to confirm the number, but 11 sexual partners from someone barely 14 is an extraordinary number. According to Mosher, Chandra, & Jones, (2005), men age 30-44 report 6-8 partners up to that point. Will is already double the low end number. Mosher, Chandra, & Jones further say that only 16% of men by age 18 have had as many as 11 partners. How many did Will have in Norway? 4 was it? Are you really telling me that your considered opinion as a mental health professional that a boy of 14 having 4 sexual partners in 96 hours or so is healthy? Are there no emotional consequences for promiscuity in an adolescent? No cheapening of sex to a mere physical act and no desensitizing to sex?

[GLH]

Okay, Will was ejaculating on stage at a gay club; but this was about two weeks after being kidnapped and raped and as a therapist, I can just about promise he was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and should have been in therapy and not vacationing in Rome. Whether he realized what he was doing or not, Will was trying to take back control of his life and sexuality. Do I think it was completely healthy, no, but was it a sign of immaturity, no. His parents, especially Brad and Robbie, shoiuld have realized you don't just get over something like what happened in Paris and send him on to Rome on holiday...

 

OMG, on a school trip, a 14 year old had the chance to do drugs and drink and hell, he did both... Call Ripley's; Will was part of a group that did both, while I don't condone the behaviour, once again, this isn't a sign of immaturity but ritualized behaviour that the vast majority of teens go through and survive. Plus, Will had the presence of mind to analyze the situation and realize he would not get in as much trouble as Ryan and acted to protect him, really how childish of him. All throughout Be Rad, Brad partakes of drugs and alcohol. Need we rehash the mushrooms at the planetarium?

 

...And now we look at the destruction of his parents belongings; Will never really got any help to cope with what happened in Paris and then his parents leave him with a completely unacceptable individual that they obviously didn't do enough checking up on... This individual instead of working to help Will, physically attacks him and puts him in a sexual situation that just brings up all the issues in Paris back. Once again, do I think it was handled correctly by Will; no, but at this point he was suffering a real breakdown and their was no family there to help him...

 

...Most of Will's behaviour issues can be traced to outside sources, not the least being kidnapped and raped, and yes what happened in Paris was rape. From a clinical standpoint, Will's behaviour would not be viewed as immaturity but derived from outside sources of origin.

 

P.S. I forgot to get into the number of sex partners. Including the rapist in Paris, I can count eleven without going back and re-reading anything... The ones that would concern me, other than the forced encounter, are those more than three or four years older than him.

 

On a professional level, I would be concerned about the number and be looking for reasons behind it and I do think there are several. That being said, the number of partners one has doesn't indicate a paticular level of maturity or lack thereof.

 

Thank you centexhairysub.

[samjones1]

It seems to me all you are is an enabler. You have a ready built excuse for everything Will does.

 

There was no indication that Will had anything on his mind in that club other than he was digging that people dug him. Are you really telling me that as a mental health professional you think a gay club is a healthy environment for a 13 year old? "Not completely" is a pretty sly way of giving approval.

 

As to the raft trip. It is normal for teens to drink and do illicit drugs in high school, what is immature and downright stupid is to do those things and then go to school (the idiots who show up to a school dance drunk, like the staff won't notice" or do it on a school sponsored trip. THAT is immature because you do not have the maturity to know it is a really, really, really bad idea that can have serious consequences.

 

Will already had his plan in mind long before the Marine guy showed up. Brad did not run away with Robbie because he was a spoiled brat, he (they) ran away because they did not see any other option to an immediate threat to Robbie. Will had lots of options, his lack of maturity led him to follow a completely out of control, irrational path.

 

I'll look to Jeremy to confirm the number, but 11 sexual partners from someone barely 14 is an extraordinary number. According to Mosher, Chandra, & Jones, (2005), men age 30-44 report 6-8 partners up to that point. Will is already double the low end number. Mosher, Chandra, & Jones further say that only 16% of men by age 18 have had as many as 11 partners. How many did Will have in Norway? 4 was it? Are you really telling me that your considered opinion as a mental health professional that a boy of 14 having 4 sexual partners in 96 hours or so is healthy? Are there no emotional consequences for promiscuity in an adolescent? No cheapening of sex to a mere physical act and no desensitizing to sex?

 

A person responding to a study between the ages of 30-44 in 2005 (I'll assume they all responded in that date in order to err on the side of finding results) would have been 14 between the years 1975 and 1989. I can't imagine that you are suggesting that the life experience of someone growing up during that time frame would at all compare to the experience of someone who was 14 in 2000. Between the rise of internet porn and the hypersexualization of everything on TV, Will would have a much more sexual existence than any of the people within the category you cite. 2000 is the year Queer as Folk started on Showtime...my mother, who was 45 at the time, didn't even know that gay people could have missionary sex. She thought they all did it doggie style. SMH!!

 

Consider also that gay people had significantly more outlets to find "boyfriends" (i.e. FB's) than in prior years due to the rise of the internet, especially chat rooms. Clearly that is not how Will is finding his guys...it is how I and all my friends found ours, however. A bit of poetic license in the hook-up process, however, would seem to be more than acceptable.

 

I can understand the desire to try to compare Will's life to our own. Will, however, isn't lilving in the time of "Oooh, let's go find Dad's Playboy (or Mom's Playgirl)". I am 6 years older than WIll would be today and I just got out of a relationship with someone who would be his age. I feel like he is a realistic portrayal of someone my ex's age, only he has had just a bit more sex than my ex had had by that time (8 vs. 11). I had had more sex than him (19 vs. 11), despite being older. However you feel about Will as a person (I think he's fine, but not as cool as Wade), the depiction is one that I recognize in people that I know and love.

 

With that said, it is unsettling for one to be reading the inner dialogue of people to whom one cannot relate. This does not mean that those people do not exist, however. Shaking one's fist at those people from one's porch and yelling "Get off my lawn, you little bastard" hardly seems productive.

[PrivateTim]

I feel like he is a realistic portrayal of someone my ex's age, only he has had just a bit more sex than my ex had had by that time (8 vs. 11). I had had more sex than him (19 vs. 11), despite being older. However you feel about Will as a person (I think he's fine, but not as cool as Wade), the depiction is one that I recognize in people that I know and love.

 

So you knew guy's who ejaculated, naked, on stage, in a gay club in Rome when they were thirteen, drugged and bound a caretaker, stole thousands of dollar's from their parents, destroyed their parents wardrobes, destroyed their cars, ran away, had sex with guys over 18 when they were 13, had sex with 4 guys in a few day span, a couple or three in one day, possibly four and all before they were 14 years and 2 months old? Even by the end of his freshman year 11 sex partners would be a lot in ANY time and era and not the norm.

[samjones1]

So you knew guy's who ejaculated, naked, on stage, in a gay club in Rome when they were thirteen, drugged and bound a caretaker, stole thousands of dollar's from their parents, destroyed their parents wardrobes, destroyed their cars, ran away, had sex with guys over 18 when they were 13, had sex with 4 guys in a few day span, a couple or three in one day, possibly four and all before they were 14 years and 2 months old?

 

No. I do, however, know a guy who had sex on the local elementary school playground with two different guys at the same time at 13. He lived in a trailer park, however, so I doubt his parents had anything to destroy or any money to send him to Rome. Luckily, he landed on his feet...he has his own CPA firm now! The chair behind his desk is, however, very well cushioned. I bet he'd make a good main character for a story...or at least his high-school aged self. The fact that Will is not the "norm" is what makes him interesting.

 

11 sex partners didn't seem like a lot to me at the time...it didn't seem like a lot for my group of friends either. It still doesn't seem like that many to me. I can't discount my own trampiness making me an outlier, however. I also have landed on my feet, though, so I suppose that's just how the cookie crumbles.

 

Finally, I call shenannigans on your contention that 11 sex partners would be a lot in any time and era and not the norm for a freshman in high school. Last time, you cited statistics (albeit inappropriate ones, in my estimation). You should support this claim with evidence. Does this claim include only gay students or gay and straight students both? What constitutes sex? Are we controlling for environmental factors, such as socioeconomic status, geographic location, and ethnicity? What sort of confidence interval are you using to make the claim? What is norm (more than 50%?)? I think you're just saying this based on your experience and do not (and cannot) know this as a fact. I'm willing to concede, however, if you can prove me wrong with empirical evidence.

[methodwriter85]

No, but I knew a girl in 8th grade who had gotten an abortion and was pregnant again; I knew lots of kids who were having sex in 7th and 8th grade, and I knew it didn't seem like a big deal to be 13 and not a virgin when I was 13. The girls who were early bloomers were often hooking up with high school guys- there was a girl in my 8th grade class who had gotten into a relationship with a 10th grade guy. After they had broken up, he came to our school and yelled at her while she went on the bus. That's why puberty plays such a big role in what happens when you're in the junior high range- the physically mature people often got involved with sex, drugs, and partying in 7th/8th grade, and those lagging behind usually don't until they finally mature by 11th/12th grade, sometimes not even until college.

 

I'm not going to say that it doesn't bother me, but while Will's situations are a lot more amped up, they're not so out of the ordinary that I can't believe it. Some kids are hyper-sexual bunnies like Will who 'eff everything in sight at 13/14 until they finally feel ready to settle down. Some kids are more innocent and take longer to get around to having sex, like JJ. That's realistic, and being sexually active at 13/14 doesn't make Will a bad or immature person- he's just not at the point where he wants to build something deeper when he has sex and just wants to have fun.

[Mark Arbour]

So you knew guy's who ejaculated, naked, on stage, in a gay club in Rome when they were thirteen, drugged and bound a caretaker, stole thousands of dollar's from their parents, destroyed their parents wardrobes, destroyed their cars, ran away, had sex with guys over 18 when they were 13, had sex with 4 guys in a few day span, a couple or three in one day, possibly four and all before they were 14 years and 2 months old? Even by the end of his freshman year 11 sex partners would be a lot in ANY time and era and not the norm.

 

I think you're being just a bit prudish. Just saying.

 

Plus you may want to remember that we are dealing with fiction here. A little exaggeration is allowed.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Mark Arbour

[centexhairysub]

I'll look to Jeremy to confirm the number, but 11 sexual partners from someone barely 14 is an extraordinary number. According to Mosher, Chandra, & Jones, (2005), men age 30-44 report 6-8 partners up to that point. Will is already double the low end number. Mosher, Chandra, & Jones further say that only 16% of men by age 18 have had as many as 11 partners. How many did Will have in Norway? 4 was it? Are you really telling me that your considered opinion as a mental health professional that a boy of 14 having 4 sexual partners in 96 hours or so is healthy? Are there no emotional consequences for promiscuity in an adolescent? No cheapening of sex to a mere physical act and no desensitizing to sex?

 

All I am going to say about the first part of your reply is that you seem to be doing the same thing you accuse me of; anyone that disagrees with your belief that Will and his behaviour shows a lack of maturity and is wrong, is wrong in their belief. I have already stated more than once that Will has several issues and if he was REAL would need to be in therapy to help him deal with them. I am not enabling his behaviour but I do believe there are some very understandable reasons behind it.

 

Now to the part of your post that is above... Of course there is consequences to promiscuity not only for adolescents but for adults as well; I have already stated that if Will was a patient, I would be trying to find out why he feels the need to sleep with so many others. Mark has given use the issues behind Will's behaviour; the problem is that you don't believe they offer any justification for his behaviour while I do. Your statements seem to indicate that you find sex without some type of emtional involvement cheaping to the human spirit. This maybe true for you, after all, everyone sets their own belief system and comfort levels; it just isn't true for everyone. You seem to want to discuss everything in absolutes when in reality there are so few absolutes.

 

The study that you are referring to did not take into consideration a differential between straight/bisexual/gay men in their methodology. My experience both personal and professional is that gay and bisexual men usually have significantly higher numbers of sexual partners than straight or questioning men do. Since the study you are referring to averaged the responses from straight/bisexual/gay men together and around 92 to 94 percent of the respondents were straight and have smaller average number of partners, then yes the study is flawed when referring to a gay youth. Yes, I actually conducted a study on this doing my dissertation and although the study was localized to the area of the college I was attending the conclusions bore my reasoning out. I also believe that most studies of this type are inherently flawed in that individuals are rarely completely honest with all of their answer all the questions especially those that they believe have a negative impact on how they or society would view their answers. You can assure everyone involved as often as you want that know one will know how any paticular person answers but they never fully believe it. People want to feel good about themselves and will delude themselves even when they don't have to.

 

My professional and personal experience is that for a gay youth in Will's age range 11 sexual partners would not be extrodinary. It would not be average by any means but not completely out of reason. Even for adolescents sometimes sex is just a physical act, this is neither all good or bad just the reality of the situation. Of course, I personally do believe that sex is better and more meaningful with an emotional or other connection to your partner but even though I believe that, I don't have that connection with each person I have sex with.

 

Even in real life, sometimes sex is just sex; it is a physical release and nothing more. This is a fictionalized account of one family and those in their orbit. In my opinion, it is brilliantly rendered but you can't take everything about it so serious....

[Mark Arbour]

My experience both personal and professional is that gay and bisexual men usually have significantly higher numbers of sexual partners than straight or questioning men do.

 

I think this is an extremely important point. I haven't done any research on this (although it is tempting to dive into Google Scholar and see what comes up), anecdotally, I have to agree with you. I actually thought about posting a poll about this, but I think your observation about self-reporting bias would make the results useless anyway.