The Paradox of Friendship

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

I decided that maybe i have been too harsh with my judgement of Zeke. The problem i have with all of Zeke's gang is that they are lulling Spencer into a false friendship with the aim of hurting him and not just emotionally. So i have judged them harshly as a group. However i hadn't considered the "Spencer effect". So Zeke despite being deceitful in this false friendship seems a genuine guy and maybe starting to care for Spencer which would be something Artie wouldn't have planned on. Spencer's basic sweetness might yet melt Zeke causing him to help Spencer when the time for help comes.

Also Hagan who hates Spencer seems a nice guy. He cares deeply for Max and cares about Max's relationship with Nix. I have to believe Hagan will also help Spencer when he is in danger because i think it is a matter of time before Max and hence Hagan will know Nix loves Spencer.

 

It's easy to be harsh with Zeke. He is, after all, being nice to Spencer while friends with Artie. In later chapters, you'll get to see more of the interactions between Zeke and Spencer, and how the two approach their 'friendship'. Keep in mind, though, that it could be a good or a bad thing.

 

As for Hagan... I think you have a subconscious idea of what his problem with Spencer is. He, like Zeke, are not carbon copies of Artie. I'm not saying whether they're better or worse than Artie, though, I'll let you decide for yourself throughout the course of the story.

Edited July 13, 2012 by InTheMindOfSunshine

[Jaxatar]

Wonderful, Awful, MORE

 

I am a bit put off by how unpredictable Dexter & Riley are.

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

Wonderful, Awful, MORE

 

I am a bit put off by how unpredictable Dexter & Riley are.

 

I'm glad you like this story enough to want more. I try to post a chapter every Tuesday. Dexter and Riley are driven by revenge and love, which makes it hard to predict their actions.

[seanthomas]

I was going to ask why Nix vomited but you answered that in one of your reviews. So it was because Nix saw himself as following the same destructive path as Connor. Doesn't that imply in NIx's thought processes or fears there is something basically wrong about a relationship with Spencer or that there is some part of Spencer that is inherently dangerous. If Nix can consider this is possible with Spencer than he should just leave him alone & just stay miserable in the closet. Nix seems likely( if he is thinking this way) to let Spencer down again. His promise as he hopped off the bus seems likely to be hollow. I am not sure that i can stomach Nix failing Spencer again and I know you will say Nix is taking small steps.

Also shouldn't it now be absolutely clear to Nix that Artie means to harm Spencer. Really it is now one plus one equals two. Artie warns Nix of the dangers of Spencer. Artie has befriended Spencer. Nix knows Artie & gang plan to hurt someone. No-one is that stupid not to put that together.

[seanthomas]

I notice you commented on my belief that Dexter & Riley are partly responsible for the hate towards Spencer from Artie's gang. I tthink this is absolutely reasonable. We know Artie's gang got their information on what happened at the party from Dexter & Riley. Now these two would be the last pair of people on the planet that would be fair,reasonable or favourable in giving a report on Spencer. They only know how to spew hate towards him and are totally unable to see any of his good side. I think it is totally reasonable to say they wouldn't have been nice in their report to Artie & gang. It would have fed subsequent hatred and hence the plot being hatched by Artie & gang. Yes they are to blame. I hate both of them and plan to maintain my hatred no matter what. Sorry but that's my opinion.

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

I was going to ask why Nix vomited but you answered that in one of your reviews. So it was because Nix saw himself as following the same destructive path as Connor. Doesn't that imply in NIx's thought processes or fears there is something basically wrong about a relationship with Spencer or that there is some part of Spencer that is inherently dangerous. If Nix can consider this is possible with Spencer than he should just leave him alone & just stay miserable in the closet. Nix seems likely( if he is thinking this way) to let Spencer down again. His promise as he hopped off the bus seems likely to be hollow. I am not sure that i can stomach Nix failing Spencer again and I know you will say Nix is taking small steps.

Also shouldn't it now be absolutely clear to Nix that Artie means to harm Spencer. Really it is now one plus one equals two. Artie warns Nix of the dangers of Spencer. Artie has befriended Spencer. Nix knows Artie & gang plan to hurt someone. No-one is that stupid not to put that together.

 

Yes, Nix saw himself following the same destructive path as Connor, and yes, that does imply Nix fears there is something wrong about a relationship with Spencer. You're going to judge Nix harshly on that note; however, there is going to come a time when Nix has to overcome his fear. I'm not saying that it happens in this story (and I'm also not saying that it doesn't), but it will happen at some point during his life - or he'll end up alone. After the way he's responded to Spencer, maybe he does deserve to be alone. I don't personally believe that, but it's arguable. Through Spencer, Nix learns a lot about himself, about the consequences of his actions, and about how much courage it takes to stand up to his own friends. Nix makes many mistakes - far too many to mention - but he's not heartless about them. When he stood aside and let Riley, Dexter, and Porter beat Spencer up (and tazer him in Porter's case), Nix realized his error, albeit a little too late, and tried to make up for it. Yes, it was a pitiful attempt, but he tried to make amends.

 

Now, I'm not going to say whether or not Nix's upholds the promise he made to Spencer before they got off the bus, but circumstances will arise that will test Nix and Spencer's true characters. For those circumstances to arise, some things are going to get worse while others get better. Help for he who needs it - be it Spencer or be it Nix - will come from the least likely place(s).

 

You said 'no-one is that stupid not to put that together.' I disagree for the mere fact that I wasn't aware I'd written it so obviously for Nix. Artie does warn Nix of Spencer's danger, but there's a difference between Artie and Nix: Nix is closer to Spencer than Artie can ever hope to be. That makes Nix's predicament that much more fragile. Also, Nix was a little too preoccupied with Artie's version of the 'event'. Not much else processed, and Nix isn't known for putting one and one together to get two.

 

I notice you commented on my belief that Dexter & Riley are partly responsible for the hate towards Spencer from Artie's gang. I tthink this is absolutely reasonable. We know Artie's gang got their information on what happened at the party from Dexter & Riley. Now these two would be the last pair of people on the planet that would be fair,reasonable or favourable in giving a report on Spencer. They only know how to spew hate towards him and are totally unable to see any of his good side. I think it is totally reasonable to say they wouldn't have been nice in their report to Artie & gang. It would have fed subsequent hatred and hence the plot being hatched by Artie & gang. Yes they are to blame. I hate both of them and plan to maintain my hatred no matter what. Sorry but that's my opinion.

 

The majority of Artie's gang's information about the party did not come from Riley and Dexter. Trudy and Dean, at least, were also at that party. They were aware of what had happened, though they did not know the nitty gritty details of what happened between Connor and Spencer. I agree, though, that Riley and Dexter wouldn't be favorable towards Spencer in relaying any type of story; they were, after all, shaken by what had transpired. It's not Riley and Dexter's style to go completely out of their way to do something elaborate; they're too rash for that.

[Jaxatar]

hmmmm.

While I enjoy the somewhat byzantine nature of the plot "behind the curtain" I'm getting concerned that ANYONE at that age would be so likely to continue enforcing such a vendetta over such a long timeframe. This is getting to be close to 50% of the conscious social life of these kids. An Omega individual can be shunned yes, but unless there is continuing and repeated behavior then it would fade would it not? I guess I'm waiting to see if there are any glimmers of redemption on all sides or if this will continue to spiral into abject despair without salvage.

 

I also feel like Nix and Spencer are just adjunct characters now? The matrix of beams and guy-wires holding up the complex plot instead of living inside it.

 

I am still enjoying the story, and the Max subplot is inspiring and scary in that it will now force Nix to feel the "Grandkid Dilemma".

Max also does not seem fully in the loop/plan or I doubt he knows the effect that slamming the trap will have on Nix

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

hmmmm.

While I enjoy the somewhat byzantine nature of the plot "behind the curtain" I'm getting concerned that ANYONE at that age would be so likely to continue enforcing such a vendetta over such a long timeframe. This is getting to be close to 50% of the conscious social life of these kids. An Omega individual can be shunned yes, but unless there is continuing and repeated behavior then it would fade would it not? I guess I'm waiting to see if there are any glimmers of redemption on all sides or if this will continue to spiral into abject despair without salvage.

 

I also feel like Nix and Spencer are just adjunct characters now? The matrix of beams and guy-wires holding up the complex plot instead of living inside it.

 

I am still enjoying the story, and the Max subplot is inspiring and scary in that it will now force Nix to feel the "Grandkid Dilemma".

Max also does not seem fully in the loop/plan or I doubt he knows the effect that slamming the trap will have on Nix

 

There's an aspect of this whole vendetta that hasn't been addressed much in the story. The main narrator, Nix, is mostly oblivious to it (as he is with most things). In the most important way, most of the characters will be redeemed. That's not to say that you, or any other reader, will agree that they've been redeemed.

 

Nix may be a bit of adjunct characters at the moment (Chapter 27: Defending His Honor), but he will not remain so. He's just trying to figure out the 'event' for both himself and the reader. Spencer, I will argue, is not an adjunct character; he's just trying to avoid as much of the action that he is able to.

 

Max, although he doesn't speak or act like it, is still a 'kid'. It is no coincidence that he is a freshman in high school. Now, I'm not saying that there's anything perverted about his and Hagan's relationship, but Max's age does reflect a bit about his character. Oh, and if/when Monica Willows finds out about her sons, she'll be most unhappy with Max in a loving parenting sort of way.

[seanthomas]

So i think you would have to agree from your last comment that Dexter & Riley are at least in part responsible for setting Artie on Spencer.

As i live in Australia i don't really understand the US high school terms like freshmen, sophmore etc . However i always understood Spencer was much younger than Connor but as another of your reviewers has pointed out the age gap is significant. In Australia such a relationship would be considerd paedophillia and Connor could be charged. It seems almost like Connor was "grooming" Spencer for some time for sex but i will wait & see what happens in the story.

This would make Dexter & Riley's 2yr abuse of Spencer so much more abhorrent. They should have blamed Connor not a child no matter what they eventually believe they saw. Connor had all the strength.....popular , a jock, a senior, strong while Spencer was still a frail, timid child. Spencer looks like he was a victim even before Connor's death. Connor was the predator.

In reality Dexter & Riley are criminals on many fronts and they should be locked up and i still can't believe they could ever be considered good guys.

Edited July 23, 2012 by seanthomas

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

So i think you would have to agree from your last comment that Dexter & Riley are at least in part responsible for setting Artie on Spencer.

As i live in Australia i don't really understand the US high school terms like freshmen, sophmore etc . However i always understood Spencer was much younger than Connor but as another of your reviewers has pointed out the age gap is significant. In Australia such a relationship would be considerd paedophillia and Connor could be charged. It seems almost like Connor was "grooming" Spencer for some time for sex but i will wait & see what happens in the story.

This would make Dexter & Riley's 2yr abuse of Spencer so much more abhorrent. They should have blamed Connor not a child no matter what they eventually believe they saw. Connor had all the strength.....popular , a jock, a senior, strong while Spencer was still a frail, timid child. Spencer looks like he was a victim even before Connor's death. Connor was the predator.

In reality Dexter & Riley are criminals on many fronts and they should be locked up and i still can't believe they could ever be considered good guys.

 

I won't say much about the possible connection between Artie and Riley/Dexter except to say that Artie has not directly spoken to either boy. In a few chapters, it will become obvious where Artie gets his 'inside' information from.

 

As for the US high school terms, a freshman is usually fourteen going fifteen years old. A senior is generally seventeen going on eighteen years old, depending on when the student's birthday falls. The high school I had in mind while writing this had freshman through seniors. With that being said, Connor was seventeen two year ago. Spencer, being a year younger than his classmates, was thirteen. It is a bit of an age gap but not unheard of, as Connor was a senior and Spencer was a freshman at the same high school. I won't say much about their relationship, though, as that's a key part of the final chapters.

 

I believe Riley and Dexter's motives are explained in the chapter i just posted (Chapter 28: The Proof). I'll let you read that chapter and think it over for now.

[seanthomas]

I thought i hated Dexter & Riley more than anyone even than Artie at the moment. Their motive is shockingly pathetic. The judged a13 yr old who they know suffers abuse at home. They know they have tortured Spencer for 2yrs. All of this because they believe he might have assisted Connor to cheat on Reese. The punishment, the torture doesn't fit the crime. How could they not consider his age, his frailty, his home abuse compared to the power of an all powerful, popular 17 yr old jock. Well i and i'm sure most readers are judging them and there is absolutely not a single excuse for their cruel behaviour. I suspect Spencer's relationship with Connor may have preceded the Connor & Reese relationship and Connor was using Reese to hide his sexuality.

I hate Nix even more than Dexter & Riley.Two comments or thoughts Nix made in this chapter were sickening. He felt a "stab of sorrow" for Connor like he hadn't felt for anyone in 2 yrs. That is about right as he certainly didn't feel a"stab of sorrow " for Spencer & his abuse for the last 2yrs. Also at the end of the chapter who does he feel sorry for but Connor & Reese. Connor was the person cheating but trust Nix to feel for him & not Spencer.

Nix is one of the weakest, most cowardly, pathetic characters i have ever come across. Please don't make excuses for him. There are no excuses for his cowardice & weakness. I really don't want to hear he is making small steps but still making mistakes. Surely if there is any justice he will be the loser in this story. I just want him to have a completely miserable life looking back on what he did and lost.

Edited July 25, 2012 by seanthomas

[seanthomas]

I was thinking about my ideal ending to this story. It would be Spencer finding someone totally different to all current characters who was awesome & caring. Spencer could ignore "Nix the coward" and let him wallow in misery. Spencer could also totally ignore all of Nix's low life group who could all hopefully rot in their own pathetic futures while our genius Spencer shone in his future success. . I know this is a fantasy but its what I would like for Spencer.

[VictoryPanda]

Short comment is short.

 

I would like to think Zeke is a good guy and will be the one to take Spencer away from everything. He seem's to be the only character that actually helps at all and shows pure... I dont know, affection(?) for Spencer. Even compared to Nix of all people. To be honest, I kind of agree and hope Spencer doesn't end up with Nix. In my eyes, he's just as bad as Riley and Dexter. Not doing anything and randomly dropping your 'friend' on and off isn't very good guy or trusting material.

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

I thought i hated Dexter & Riley more than anyone even than Artie at the moment. Their motive is shockingly pathetic. The judged a13 yr old who they know suffers abuse at home. They know they have tortured Spencer for 2yrs. All of this because they believe he might have assisted Connor to cheat on Reese. The punishment, the torture doesn't fit the crime. How could they not consider his age, his frailty, his home abuse compared to the power of an all powerful, popular 17 yr old jock. Well i and i'm sure most readers are judging them and there is absolutely not a single excuse for their cruel behaviour. I suspect Spencer's relationship with Connor may have preceded the Connor & Reese relationship and Connor was using Reese to hide his sexuality.

I hate Nix even more than Dexter & Riley.Two comments or thoughts Nix made in this chapter were sickening. He felt a "stab of sorrow" for Connor like he hadn't felt for anyone in 2 yrs. That is about right as he certainly didn't feel a"stab of sorrow " for Spencer & his abuse for the last 2yrs. Also at the end of the chapter who does he feel sorry for but Connor & Reese. Connor was the person cheating but trust Nix to feel for him & not Spencer.

Nix is one of the weakest, most cowardly, pathetic characters i have ever come across. Please don't make excuses for him. There are no excuses for his cowardice & weakness. I really don't want to hear he is making small steps but still making mistakes. Surely if there is any justice he will be the loser in this story. I just want him to have a completely miserable life looking back on what he did and lost.

 

Dexter and Riley are actually unaware of Spencer's home life for the most part. They do not know where he lives, nor do they care to know. All they know is that he's not well off with money and probably not well-cared for. They don't know of the abuse. Spencer is only a year younger than them, which isn't that much of an age difference in the overall spectrum of things. There are many excuses for their behavior, but you won't like any of them. For instance, Riley and Dexter are driven by their emotions. Emotions are just as important as anything else in life, including logic/rationality. If emotions were not important, human beings would not have them and would not rely on them.

 

The exact quote is: "Nix felt a stab of sorrow for Connor like he had not felt in almost two years." I think you've misinterpreted how I meant this sentence. "Nix felt a stab of sorrow for Connor like he had not felt [for Connor] in almost two years." That's what that sentence is supposed to mean. He's felt many stabs of sorrow on behalf of Spencer. If Nix did not feel anything, he would not have stood up for Spencer at any point.

 

I know you say Nix is weak, but he's not as weak as you may think. Nix stands up to Riley and Dexter - that in itself takes a great deal of courage. Riley and Dexter aren't nameless people. Nix actually cares about their opinions. Nix is *friends* with them, and yet he still stood against them. Sure, he has his cowardly moments - such as breaking that promise to Spencer or not standing up for Spencer every time - but he is a lot braver than you give him credit for.

 

You want Nix to have a miserable life, but isn't his life already miserable? Besides, no one would get the justice they deserved if Nix was the 'loser' of the story, not even Spencer.

 

I was thinking about my ideal ending to this story. It would be Spencer finding someone totally different to all current characters who was awesome & caring. Spencer could ignore "Nix the coward" and let him wallow in misery. Spencer could also totally ignore all of Nix's low life group who could all hopefully rot in their own pathetic futures while our genius Spencer shone in his future success. . I know this is a fantasy but its what I would like for Spencer.

 

While that is a fantasy that could be drawn from the story, it won't happen. Even if it did happen, Spencer wouldn't be happy with it. He hasn't spent this entire story befriending and losing Nix just to give it all up and try to find something "better". Besides, Nix's obliviousness and other aspects of the characters might come in handy and be beneficial to Spencer in the end.

 

Short comment is short.

 

I would like to think Zeke is a good guy and will be the one to take Spencer away from everything. He seem's to be the only character that actually helps at all and shows pure... I dont know, affection(?) for Spencer. Even compared to Nix of all people. To be honest, I kind of agree and hope Spencer doesn't end up with Nix. In my eyes, he's just as bad as Riley and Dexter. Not doing anything and randomly dropping your 'friend' on and off isn't very good guy or trusting material.

 

Zeke. I've always liked Zeke. (Of course, I've always liked Riley and Dexter as well.) I won't say anything about his future actions. He will take his stand before Nix has his shining and character-defining moment.

[seanthomas]

Dexter and Riley are almost impossible not to hate as i believe they really do not have a satisfactory answer as to WHY?, WHY? WHY? If I could i'd ask Dexter & Riley the following questions. Why Dexter & Riley have you abused Spencer daily for 2 years ? Why are you keeping a promise to Connor when you believe he is also "filth" ? Why on earth are you honouring Connor by keeping a promise to him when he was the clear cheater? Why didn't you ask the 13yr old Spencer for his side of the story ? Why would you consider torturing Spencer again ?.Why have you not considered the possibility that Connor & Spencer were together before Connor & Reese's relationship? Why have you not considered the imbalance of power between Spencer and Connor which shoud be obvious to anyone? Why have you not considered again the imbalance of power that exists between them & Spencer when they attack as a gang and how morally gutless & cowardly you appear ?

 

Really only the most morally bankrupt of persons could continue their torture. They have had enough personal interaction with Spencer to know he is not fundamentally evil or bad. Why would they continue? Surely it isn't because of Reese. Reese has clearly moved on as you might expect from someone her age where relationships are often brief. Connor was hardly the romance of her life. He was missing half the time. She was a little upset at the latest information but not seriously. Nothing that would justify torturing a frail teen from the age of 13 to now 15. Nothing that would justify putting a bullied teen at risk of suicide. (Spencer's resilence is extraordinary and Dexter & Riley are not capable of being aware that he won't suicide if they keep at it).

I know as the author you like your 2 characters but as an outsider, a reader I can't share your creator's fondness. No person with a shred of humanity could continue this process unless they are fundamentally morally flawed. The excuse that they act emotionally rather than logically doesn't excuse their moral weakness. How many crimes could use this as an excuse. It isn't.

It would have been interesting if Connor had lived whether they would have had so much bravado and courage in their attacks if the victim was Connor. You yourself said they might be " mean " to him. Yes they might but i doublt very much that they would be so keen on a daily assault on Connor. If Connor was their bullying victim they just might get hurt. They may well hurt Connor but a big older jock like Connor is going to hurt them back. They would not attack without receiving blows back. They attack Spencer because they know they can do it without any fear of being hurt.. It is easy to be big & brave when the victim is small & frail. Fundamentally as well as being morally bankrupt they are also cowards as they attack a small defenceless person in a pack. These guys can't be defended as good guys. They are not. You are just to fond of them as you are their creator. They may well go on to show some better qualities but nothing can ever forgive them of their shocking actions. There really is very little that is extraordinary that could support their actions.

 

Nix's biggest crime in this chapter isn't his pathetic cowardly fear of being another Connor. It was in his statement to Dexter & Riley at the end of the chapter when he told them " you are right".This was blatantly telling Dexter & Riley that they were correct to assault Spencer. They were right to punch him, kick him, gag him, strip him, belt him, humiliate him, tie him up & ok his tazering. I'm certain we will see a resumption in these attacks in the next chapter. Nix is a party to these crimes. He doesn't need to have thrown a punch to be guilty. His long period as a close friend to Dexter & Riley as an observer renders him guilty. Now by telling them they were right he has re-affirmed their crimes as reasonable and given them the all clear to end the reprieve.. He could have said "you were right but I think it is time to end it. He has had enough. Lets just ignore him from now on". Nix is equally if not more responsible for every future harm inflicted by Dexter & Riley on Spencer. Saving him after the assaults begin again is too little, too late. He is responsible. It took so little to convince him. You would not want to be innocent and have him as a juror.

It is an awesome story. the best i have read on this site by far.

Edited July 28, 2012 by seanthomas

[seanthomas]

I have felt for awhile that Artie & gang were behind Porter. Now i think Hagan is the link to Porter. I also think Hagan is the photographer of Spencer & Connor. Hagan is gay and may have had a crush on Connor and was initially taking photos of Connor when he realised the relationship between Spencer & Connor. Either that or Connor & Hagan were also in a friends with privileges relationship when Hagan got jealous. It would make you wonder what sort of guy Max is involved with if it were true.

Edited July 27, 2012 by seanthomas

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

Dexter and Riley are almost impossible not to hate as i believe they really do not have a satisfactory answer as to WHY?, WHY? WHY? If I could i'd ask Dexter & Riley the following questions. Why Dexter & Riley have you abused Spencer daily for 2 years ? Why are you keeping a promise to Connor when you believe he is also "filth" ? Why on earth are you honouring Connor by keeping a promise to him when he was the clear cheater? Why didn't you ask the 13yr old Spencer for his side of the story ? Why would you consider torturing Spencer again ?.Why have you not considered the possibility that Connor & Spencer were together before Connor & Reese's relationship? Why have you not considered the imbalance of power between Spencer and Connor which shoud be obvious to anyone? Why have you not considered again the imbalance of power that exists between them & Spencer when they attack as a gang and how morally gutless & cowardly you appear ?

 

Really only the most morally bankrupt of persons could continue their torture. They have had enough personal interaction with Spencer to know he is not fundamentally evil or bad. Why would they continue? Surely it isn't because of Reese. Reese has clearly moved on as you might expect from someone her age where relationships are often brief. Connor was hardly the romance of her life. He was missing half the time. She was a little upset at the latest information but not seriously. Nothing that would justify torturing a frail teen from the age of 13 to now 15. Nothing that would justify putting a bullied teen at risk of suicide. (Spencer's resilence is extraordinary and Dexter & Riley are not capable of being aware that he won't suicide if they keep at it).

I know as the author you like your 2 characters but as an outsider, a reader I can't share your creator's fondness. No person with a shred of humanity could continue this process unless they are fundamentally morally flawed. The excuse that they act emotionally rather than logically doesn't excuse their moral weakness. How many crimes could use this as an excuse. It isn't.

It would have been interesting if Connor had lived whether they would have had so much bravado and courage in their attacks if the victim was Connor. You yourself said they might be " mean " to him. Yes they might but i doublt very much that they would be so keen on a daily assault on Connor. If Connor was their bullying victim they just might get hurt. They may well hurt Connor but a big older jock like Connor is going to hurt them back. They would not attack without receiving blows back. They attack Spencer because they know they can do it without any fear of being hurt.. It is easy to be big & brave when the victim is small & frail. Fundamentally as well as being morally bankrupt they are also cowards as they attack a small defenceless person in a pack. These guys can't be defended as good guys. They are not. You are just to fond of them as you are their creator. They may well go on to show some better qualities but nothing can ever forgive them of their shocking actions. There really is very little that is extraordinary that could support their actions.

 

Nix's biggest crime in this chapter isn't his pathetic cowardly fear of being another Connor. It was in his statement to Dexter & Riley at the end of the chapter when he told them " you are right".This was blatantly telling Dexter & Riley that they were correct to assault Spencer. They were right to punch him, kick him, gag him, strip him, belt him, humiliate him, tie him up & ok his tazering. I'm certain we will see a resumption in these attacks in the next chapter. Nix is a party to these crimes. He doesn't need to have thrown a punch to be guilty. His long period as a close friend to Dexter & Riley as an observer renders him guilty. Now by telling them they were right he has re-affirmed their crimes as reasonable and given them the all clear to end the reprieve.. He could have said "you were right but I think it is time to end it. He has had enough. Lets just ignore him from now on". Nix is equally if not more responsible for every future harm inflicted by Dexter & Riley on Spencer. Saving him after the assaults begin again is too little, too late. He is responsible. It took so little to convince him. You would not want to be innocent and have him as a juror.

It is an awesome story. the best i have read on this site by far.

 

You pose a lot of questions, and many of them will be answered around the climax of the story so I'm not going to address them now. The thing about Riley and Dexter is that they are set in their ways and have a strong sense of loyalty and of justice; these can be good things or they can be bad things. You would probably argue that they're bad things, and that is your prerogative. They're also not morally weak, because they do have strong morals. It just so happens their morals are not always conventional. Just because I created Riley and Dexter doesn't mean I have to be fond of them. I'm also the creator of Ellasyn, and I most certainly do not like her. I still write her. I still gave her a decent storyline, but I don't like her. I like Riley and Dexter because they're not afraid to stand up for their beliefs.

 

Connor living versus dying would spin this particular story in two totally different directions. Without Connor's death, Reese's life wouldn't have spiraled out of control; therefore, Riley and Dexter might have been slightly antagonistic towards both Spencer and Connor (because Connor cheated on Reese with Spencer). Don't overestimate the still-mysterious Connor, though. Age does not mean strength or courage. I won't say much more about Connor for now, though.

 

It was time for Nix to face the facts he was presented with. He wasn't okaying Riley and Dexter's actions. He was simply stating that they had been right the entire time. He was admitting that he was blind to their side of the story. Yes, that paints Nix in a bad light (much like many other things in the story), but Nix was never meant to be a perfect protagonist. He makes his mistakes and places his bets on the wrong horses at times, but that's what drives him. Right now, Nix has heard two stories: Artie/Dean's and Riley/Dexter's. Between the two stories, he's obviously going to believe the latter one because Riley and Dexter are his trusted friends. After all, what motive does Riley and Dexter have to lie to Nix? Say what you will about Riley and Dexter's moral consciousness and what have you, but they are not liars.

 

I have felt for awhile that Artie & gang were behind Porter. Now i think Hagan is the link to Porter. I also think Hagan is the photographer of Spencer & Connor. Hagan is gay and may have had a crush on Connor and was initially taking photos of Connor when he realised the relationship between Spencer & Connor. Either that or Connor & Hagan were also in a friends with privileges relationship when Hagan got jealous. It would make you wonder what sort of guy Max is involved with if it were true.

 

This is an interesting take on both Porter's alleged connection to Artie's gang and on Hagan as an overall character. I will neither confirm nor deny your accusations at this time.

[seanthomas]

Of course Dexter & Riley are telling the truth as they see it. I never had any doubts about that. It's their perverted actions in response that questions their morality. They are using a twisted form of loyalty within the dynamics of their group of friends to act in the worse possible way and the evidence is saying that it is in no way justified. Nothing happened that was so bad. Even Reese's meltdown doesn't in any way excuses their campaign of terror on a youmger, weaker person. You didn't really respond to my challenge on whether they would have been game to attack a living Connor because as cowards they would not. They would not have been so "brave". Only the most morally weak persons could carry out their torture. Their "honouring " of Connor's promise is twisted. They have said we are keeping our promise to Connor. Why ? Why is Connor the older, stronger, more popular jock and the prime cheat the one they "honour" over a weak 13 yr old.

Nix is as bad and not because he believed Dexter & Riley. Of course he would. I would. His failure was to not put it in perspective and say nevertheless i think it is time to drop it. Nix knows in himself that Spencer isn't the evil monster he is being made out to be. Surely you are not saying that the reprieve is not over as a result of Nix's words.. Nix has personally ended the reprieve. He is responsible.

Actually the twisted loyalty that exists in this group of friends is almost pathological and that may explain their crimes.

Edited July 29, 2012 by seanthomas

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

Of course Dexter & Riley are telling the truth as they see it. I never had any doubts about that. It's their perverted actions in response that questions their morality. They are using a twisted form of loyalty within the dynamics of their group of friends to act in the worse possible way and the evidence is saying that it is in no way justified. Nothing happened that was so bad. Even Reese's meltdown doesn't in any way excuses their campaign of terror on a youmger, weaker person. You didn't really respond to my challenge on whether they would have been game to attack a living Connor because as cowards they would not. They would not have been so "brave". Only the most morally weak persons could carry out their torture. Their "honouring " of Connor's promise is twisted. They have said we are keeping our promise to Connor. Why ? Why is Connor the older, stronger, more popular jock and the prime cheat the one they "honour" over a weak 13 yr old.

Nix is as bad and not because he believed Dexter & Riley. Of course he would. I would. His failure was to not put it in perspective and say nevertheless i think it is time to drop it. Nix knows in himself that Spencer isn't the evil monster he is being made out to be. Surely you are not saying that the reprieve is not over as a result of Nix's words.. Nix has personally ended the reprieve. He is responsible.

Actually the twisted loyalty that exists in this group of friends is almost pathological and that may explain their crimes.

 

I disagree with your statement that 'nothing happened that was so bad'. A boy - Connor - lost his life. Reese was still in love with him at that time. Riley and Dexter considered him a friend. Death affects everyone in different ways and for different lengths of time. This is one of the reasons Riley and Dexter honor their promise to Connor.

 

No, I didn't really address the question of whether Riley and Dexter would treat Connor as they do Spencer had Connor lived. I find it an irrelevant question. Without Connor's death, many things would not have played out as they did. There were too many variables at play. What I think you're getting at is whether Riley and Dexter are bullying Spencer because he's younger, weaker, and a nobody. The answer is no. Spencer's vulnerability plays a very small part in Riley and Dexter's motivation. Hypothetically if Reese had dated Spencer who cheated on her with Connor and Spencer got himself killed, Riley and Dexter would treat Connor as they do Spencer. It wouldn't have mattered if Connor was older or 'stronger' or anything. They would have sought the same thing they're seeking with Spencer.

 

Nix isn't really sure what he knows right now. He has a lot to deal with. In order to help someone else, Nix must first help himself. That's a bit blunt, but there's no point in beating around the bush. Instead of looking at this situation from Spencer's point of view, take a second and look at it from Nix's point of view. He's been oblivious to things for so long because that's how he deals with things. Now his eyes are being opened to the horrors surrounding him. There are only a few people he can trust truly without a doubt, and two of those people happen to be Riley and Dexter. They're his close friends who are warning him against getting hurt. It's unwise to fault Nix for thinking of himself; it's human nature. Nix isn't a superhuman; he has his flaws and his weaknesses just as he's entitled to.

Edited July 31, 2012 by InTheMindOfSunshine

[seanthomas]

I think you are one of the most amazing authors i have ever read. I don't think i have read a story that has has ever had such a strong effect on me. It is unbelievably gripping.I mean it when i say it is the best story by far on this site. It is ten stars.

However you continue to defend the indefensible. I know you have said you don't agree with Dexter & Riley's actions but you defend so many aspects of it & especially their reasons.

Of course Connor's death was shocking & a terrible waste. It far outweighs Reese's meltdown.

However in the last chapter there are two huge statements. First D & R recognised Connor was "filth" . They also accurately saw Spencer as a child. when they called him the "boy". Despite your downplaying of the age gap it is huge. It is the difference between a child and a man. Barely a teen & a jock /hero.. Even if Spencer was 14 it would have been massive. The failure to allow for Spencer's age by D & R condemns every other action by D & R.

It is also wrong to downplay the frail weak vulnerable 13 yr old versus the pack attacks by D & R. The particular pack attack where the are beating the gagged Spencer and hold him down so Porter can tazer him is a sickeningly cowardly action. I know it is irrevelant but they are extremely unlikely to have been so brave if the victim was Connor.

Any judge would find them in his summing up as Cruel, Cowardly & Criminal.

Any future redemption is minimised by their actions.. They are indefensible with their callous actions over a shocking 2 yr period. They could easily be reponsible for Spencer's death, his suicide.They don't know that Spencer has remarkable strength. They have a Callous indifference to the possibility of his suicide. They don't care and as you stated earlier they might even be disappointed that they can't keep their promise to Connor with Spencer's death.

I any totally confused by your defence of them.

Edited July 31, 2012 by seanthomas

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

I think you are one of the most amazing authors i have ever read. I don't think i have read a story that has has ever had such a strong effect on me. It is unbelievably gripping.I mean it when i say it is the best story by far on this site. It is ten stars.

However you continue to defend the indefensible. I know you have said you don't agree with Dexter & Riley's actions but you defend so many aspects of it & especially their reasons.

Of course Connor's death was shocking & a terrible waste. It far outweighs Reese's meltdown.

However in the last chapter there are two huge statements. First D & R recognised Connor was "filth" . They also accurately saw Spencer as a child. when they called him the "boy". Despite your downplaying of the age gap it is huge. It is the difference between a child and a man. Barely a teen & a jock /hero.. Even if Spencer was 14 it would have been massive. The failure to allow for Spencer's age by D & R condemns every other action by D & R.

It is also wrong to downplay the frail weak vulnerable 13 yr old versus the pack attacks by D & R. The particular pack attack where the are beating the gagged Spencer and hold him down so Porter can tazer him is a sickeningly cowardly action. I know it is irrevelant but they are extremely unlikely to have been so brave if the victim was Connor.

Any judge would find them in his summing up as Cruel, Cowardly & Criminal.

Any future redemption is minimised by their actions.. They are indefensible with their callous actions over a shocking 2 yr period. They could easily be reponsible for Spencer's death, his suicide.They don't know that Spencer has remarkable strength. They have a Callous indifference to the possibility of his suicide. They don't care and as you stated earlier they might even be disappointed that they can't keep their promise to Connor with Spencer's death.

I any totally confused by your defence of them.

 

I don't think Riley and Dexter are indefensible. Riley and Dexter are not malicious machines. They're human beings. They have motivation for everything they do, and, unfortunately. a bit of what they do is no doubt mean. At the end of the day, everyone makes mistakes, and it's those mistakes that teach people the greatest of lessons.

 

"Filth" -> Why do Dexter and Riley refer to Connor as filth? It has been two years since the party. They have had some where around 700 or so days to think about what happened. That's 16800 hours. That's a LONG time to think things over. At the time it happened, neither Riley nor Dexter believed Connor (or Spencer, for what it's worth) was filth. They weren't 'filth' because of their homosexuality. Connor became 'filth' because he cheated on Reese.

 

"Boy" -> I guess it's a difference in dialects, but where I live, the word boy does not automatically mean 'kid'. There are high school boys. There are college boys. Boys is synonymous with the word 'guys'. Sure, boys are men when they reach adulthood, but even eighteen year olds are called boys. It's just a slang that I've inserted into the story. So no, Riley and Dexter are not highlighting the age gap, because it's not important.

 

Connor is still up in the air at this point in the story (Chapter 28: The Proof). There is no indication how 'brave' Connor was or how much 'bravery' it would have taken Riley and/or Dexter to stand up to him. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: just because Connor was older does not mean Riley or/and Dexter would not have stood up against him.

 

There's an entire aspect of Riley and Dexter's redemption that takes the cake. I'm not saying that you'll agree that they're redeemed. I'm not saying any one will, but the truth of the matter is that both Riley and Dexter are redeemed in the most important way. Because they are redeemed in such a manner, that's all that matters.

[Hermetically Sealed]

I seriously cannot believe you are defending Riley and Dexter's actions, much less claiming they aren't "that bad". They aren't just being"emotionally driven" and loyal in a twisted way. They are sociopaths. No-one would behave this way in the real world and not be judged as anything less. I'm sorry, I know they are your characters, but you have shown nothing in this entire story that excuses the extremes of their behavior. Their excuse is shallow. Their maintaining the "promise" is nonsensical. They don't even act with grim determination as ones just doing a duty; they revel in the pain and misery they cause on a daily basis for two years. They are mentally unbalanced, pure and simple.

 

The rest of their group is equally so. There is nothing brave in Nix's few meager defenses of Spencer. Brave would be after seeing their "justification," nix tells them what sick fucks they are for tormenting a kid for two years for something so lame. That would have been brave. If the few pathetic attempts to help Spencer are supposedly "courageous" for Nix, then he is truly a morally challenged character.

 

I don't think you a bad writer, I think you have a good talent, but I also don't think you are really being objective in your defense of these characters. You are grossly overstating their "goodness." I mean, we have yet to even see any in the story, and I don't consider the way they treat each other as counting. Even sociopaths are known to look after their own interests.

 

While the end of the story Spencer might see these reprehensible creeps as being redeemed, there is nothing that could possible do so in my eyes. Nothing.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Hermetically Sealed

[Silver Priest]

I really liked this story at first. but I'm afraid it's become more and more difficult for me to suspend my disbelief.

 

First of all, the reader is supposed to believe that abuse this common is not being noticed by anyone around Spencer? Where are the teachers? He's a genius, surely one of them would take notice if he kept coming to class with black eyes. Especially since the whole school apparently stops to witness the latest ways Riley and Dexter torment him. Does no one teach or patrol near the area they beat him up? Also, how has he not required medical attention for any of his injuries? He seems to be good as new fairly soon after all of his beatings, even in this latest chapter.

 

Secondly, Spencer works at a hospital. No one there intervenes or notices the signs of abuse? You've mentioned Nix's mom noticed something was wrong with him, but she never follows up on that? I'd not have a problem with that, but adults outside of his own family seem to like Spencer. They'd have every reason to want to intervene if they suspected something was wrong.

 

My biggest complaint though is that apparently everyone has forgotten that Spencer saved Nix's life. I don't know, you'd figure that would earn him some gratitude, at the very least from Nix himself. But everyone seems to be grateful to him for one or two chapters then forget all about it. The friends that care about Nix's wellbeing so much are right back to beating up the person who just saved their friend's life. And Nix lets them, convinced of the evilness of the person who again, just saved him. That alone says all that needs to be said about the utter vileness of almost every character in this story.

 

The story's not badly written. But increasingly, I find it difficult to read it as anything other then "How will Spencer be tortured this week?'. Bullying is a very real probelm,and it's important to touch on. But I feel like this story takes said abuse up to eleven. Now apparently Artie and his friends are going to find a way to scar Spencer in yet another way. I think I'd complain less if the abuse had any notable effects on him. But so far he does not seem bitter, or even all that angry. I don't remember him once voicing suicidial thoughts or homicidal, for that matter. He seems very much like a saint, and given the abuse he's endured, I find that difficult to believe.

 

You said you wanted to create a realistic story. As it stands right now, I'm sorry to say that you were not successful.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Silver Priest

[seanthomas]

I was a little alarmed at your last response to me

You described them as mean. I'm sorry but mean isn't attacking a13yr old to 15 yr old daily for 2yrs. Mean isn't punching, kicking, gagging stripping , humiliating & tying some one up. Mean isn't Dexter & Riley holding onto Spencer so Potter can tazer him twice and than punching a tazered Spencer. Mean isn't boasting how Dexter, Riley & potter make a good attack team. Mean isn't laughing about how much fun the torture is. Mean isn't assaulting Spencer after he helps them in an exam. Mean isn't assaulting Spencer after he sacrifices himself to save their best friend's life ( Nix)

You also said they aren't malicious machines. I actually think the relentless 2 yr assault could be perfectly described as machinelike. That's exactly what it is. It has been machinelike torture.

You say they are human beings but up to this point the one quality they have lacked is humanity.

Of course I know that's why they have called Connor filth. What i will NEVER understand than is why do they keep their promise to him. You would think that every one of those 16800 hours that passed would make them less likely to canonise Connor and less likely to demonise Spencer. Keeping their promise to Connor is saying we forgive you Connor. It was all this awful tiny childs (who you were fucking) fault. He twisted your jock arms with his tiny body and made you climb on top of him and fuck him.

Finally you continue to downplay the age gap.I know you don't see it as a factor or as remarkable or as significant but you have to ALSO consider how your readers see it.. I'm insisting that it is important. A thirteen year old barely a teen is a CHILD by every definition...physically, emotionally, sexually. Four years at this age is more significant than at any other point in the human life. Seventeen, a jock is a man sexually and physically.

I'm certain that any INDEPENDENT viewer of this story would agree that Dexter & Riley's actions are completely totally, 100 % indefensible.

Now i look forward to forgiving them in some way but never fully.

Edited August 1, 2012 by seanthomas

[InTheMindOfSunshine]

I seriously cannot believe you are defending Riley and Dexter's actions, much less claiming they aren't "that bad". They aren't just being"emotionally driven" and loyal in a twisted way. They are sociopaths. No-one would behave this way in the real world and not be judged as anything less. I'm sorry, I know they are your characters, but you have shown nothing in this entire story that excuses the extremes of their behavior. Their excuse is shallow. Their maintaining the "promise" is nonsensical. They don't even act with grim determination as ones just doing a duty; they revel in the pain and misery they cause on a daily basis for two years. They are mentally unbalanced, pure and simple.

 

The rest of their group is equally so. There is nothing brave in Nix's few meager defenses of Spencer. Brave would be after seeing their "justification," nix tells them what sick fucks they are for tormenting a kid for two years for something so lame. That would have been brave. If the few pathetic attempts to help Spencer are supposedly "courageous" for Nix, then he is truly a morally challenged character.

 

I don't think you a bad writer, I think you have a good talent, but I also don't think you are really being objective in your defense of these characters. You are grossly overstating their "goodness." I mean, we have yet to even see any in the story, and I don't consider the way they treat each other as counting. Even sociopaths are known to look after their own interests.

 

While the end of the story Spencer might see these reprehensible creeps as being redeemed, there is nothing that could possible do so in my eyes. Nothing.

 

This story was never meant to take place in the 'real world'. Reading it as so is a mistake. The setting is a completely different reality than today's world. It is very similar, but I've taken liberties throughout the story that makes it unable to take place in this world. Riley and Dexter aren't sociopaths; they aren't cruel to everyone they meet. Maybe you think their reasoning is shallow, but I don't agree. As a reader, you know so much more than any character in the story--more than Nix, more than Spencer, and certainly more than Riley and Dexter. They have one perspective: their own. Dexter and Riley aren't all-knowing. They know what they saw. They know how they perceived it. They know how it made them feel. I don't think they are reacting to the 'event' correctly, but they do. They lived through it and were deeply affected by it. They may be reacting in the worst possibly way, but there are only four people who witnessed what went on in that room. One of them is dead; three of them are still alive. Riley and Dexter can tell their story, but it'll never be in its entirety. It's nearly impossible to recreate what you've seen, because your memory distorts what actually happened. Besides, how can two teenage boys such as them let their innermost feelings spill to a general audience? Riley and Dexter, during their story to Nix, greatly downplayed their own feelings to what had happened. They are not as mentally unbalanced as they may appear at first sight.

 

While Nix does seem to be the one to stand up for Spencer, he's not a superhuman. In fact, he's probably the most fractured of all of the characters. It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to your friends--even more than it does to stand up to anyone else. While Nix has his moments of bravery--such as when he walked away the first time--he's not in the right mindset to ultimately save Spencer from everything right now. He doesn't have the capability. There is one missing piece that must fall into place before Nix can stand firmly on his feet without swaying. This must happen before he can become true to Spencer.

 

I really liked this story at first. but I'm afraid it's become more and more difficult for me to suspend my disbelief.

 

First of all, the reader is supposed to believe that abuse this common is not being noticed by anyone around Spencer? Where are the teachers? He's a genius, surely one of them would take notice if he kept coming to class with black eyes. Especially since the whole school apparently stops to witness the latest ways Riley and Dexter torment him. Does no one teach or patrol near the area they beat him up? Also, how has he not required medical attention for any of his injuries? He seems to be good as new fairly soon after all of his beatings, even in this latest chapter.

 

Secondly, Spencer works at a hospital. No one there intervenes or notices the signs of abuse? You've mentioned Nix's mom noticed something was wrong with him, but she never follows up on that? I'd not have a problem with that, but adults outside of his own family seem to like Spencer. They'd have every reason to want to intervene if they suspected something was wrong.

 

My biggest complaint though is that apparently everyone has forgotten that Spencer saved Nix's life. I don't know, you'd figure that would earn him some gratitude, at the very least from Nix himself. But everyone seems to be grateful to him for one or two chapters then forget all about it. The friends that care about Nix's wellbeing so much are right back to beating up the person who just saved their friend's life. And Nix lets them, convinced of the evilness of the person who again, just saved him. That alone says all that needs to be said about the utter vileness of almost every character in this story.

 

The story's not badly written. But increasingly, I find it difficult to read it as anything other then "How will Spencer be tortured this week?'. Bullying is a very real probelm,and it's important to touch on. But I feel like this story takes said abuse up to eleven. Now apparently Artie and his friends are going to find a way to scar Spencer in yet another way. I think I'd complain less if the abuse had any notable effects on him. But so far he does not seem bitter, or even all that angry. I don't remember him once voicing suicidial thoughts or homicidal, for that matter. He seems very much like a saint, and given the abuse he's endured, I find that difficult to believe.

 

You said you wanted to create a realistic story. As it stands right now, I'm sorry to say that you were not successful.

 

I've stated this before, but this story does not reflect reality as we know it. It was never meant to. It's an exaggerated sense of today's world. With that being said, I purposefully leave out the teachers and most adults. If a teacher jumped in every single time Spencer was bullied, then the bullying would have to take place off school grounds, and that could potentially get messier than it already is. The events had to play out between Spencer and Dexter/Riley in order for other things to fall into place. Spencer, as I think I've said somewhere before, is not social enough to seek out a teacher for help. Sure, he skipped a grade, but that does not automatically get him privileges other kids don't have.

 

The whole school doesn't stop to witness Spencer's beatings; only a select few and the others, if they're around, mostly ignore it. This story is already such a large work - larger than I expected it to be when I set out to write it - so I didn't want to delve into that particular issue at that time. Doing so would have added another twenty thousand or so words, because, due to the manner in which I've written this story, I could not have merely given a passing reason. I chose to leave it out entirely in order to get to the more important aspects of the story - to the aspects that would lead to the climax.

 

Spencer manages to patch himself up rather well, having had a bit of experience with doing so by now. If he's ever went to the hospital, it was to a free clinic, where they don't actually care why he's hurt as he is. He's not financially well off, not by a long shot. He generally gets scrapes and bruises, which are the kind of injuries that only hurt if you notice them. I imagine he's in a bit of pain all of the time, but I leave that up to the reader to decide for his or her self. In this chapter you're referring to (Chapter 29: Honest and Truthful Friends) Spencer 'forgot' his pain because Zeke gave him some pain killers.

 

As for the hospital, Spencer works as a storyteller and slips under most of the staff's radar. I'm not going to address the issue of Nix's mom at this time; it'll be told in the story.

 

Yes, Spencer saved Nix's life. Though it sounds cruel, that's not enough to call a permanent cease-fire. It was a temporary one. If it had been the end of Spencer's troubles with Riley and Dexter, then Nix's allergic reaction would have been the climax, and that was not a good enough ending for the characters, for myself, or for the readers. Later, this will be addressed in the actual story so I won't actually go into a full-blown out reasoning.

 

I mentioned this previously, but I purposefully exaggerated many aspects of this story, including, and probably most especially, bullying. Bullying is scary and downright horrible. I've witnessed many minor occurrences and there was even one boy that I graduated high school with a couple of years ago that received a broken arm just because our classmates decided he needed to be 'brought down a notch or two'. When I started writing this story, I felt the need to exaggerate the bullying so that it might speak to someone. I don't know if it did or if does or even if it will. You said bullying needed to be 'touched' on, but I think it needs to be fully addressed.

 

Spencer isn't a saint, but there's a reason he hasn't committed suicide or even considered it. He's also not rash or neither does he have the nerve to kill someone else (such as Riley or Dexter). That's just not in his capabilities. I'm not saying he's weak or that he's unable to stand up for himself. Instead, I'm saying that there are a few reasons why Spencer hasn't just ended it all one way or another.

 

I'll say this one more time: I never meant for this story to be 'realistic' in the sense you are meaning so you saying that I was not successful is actually a compliment.