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The Paradox of Friendship


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At the moment i don't think things have changed one bit between Dexter & Riley and Spencer. Dexter's offer to leave Spencer alone for the remainder of the trip if he plays none of his "tricks" is a fairly hollow offer. Dexter knows it is just too difficult with Nix hovering over Spencer for him to attack so he is just waiting for the next chance after the trip to attack him. Personally i can't wait until there is a serious confrontation between Nix and these guys over their savage bullying.

As in my review I think Artie is just manipulating Max, Hagan & Zeke. He is manipulating Hagan & Zeke's grief over Connor turning it in to their evil revenge plan. I suspect they even don't know how far Artie plans to take the revenge. I suspect Artie thought up & arranged Max's & Hagans get together as part of his control of these guys.

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At the moment i don't think things have changed one bit between Dexter & Riley and Spencer. Dexter's offer to leave Spencer alone for the remainder of the trip if he plays none of his "tricks" is a fairly hollow offer. Dexter knows it is just too difficult with Nix hovering over Spencer for him to attack so he is just waiting for the next chance after the trip to attack him. Personally i can't wait until there is a serious confrontation between Nix and these guys over their savage bullying.

As in my review I think Artie is just manipulating Max, Hagan & Zeke. He is manipulating Hagan & Zeke's grief over Connor turning it in to their evil revenge plan. I suspect they even don't know how far Artie plans to take the revenge. I suspect Artie thought up & arranged Max's & Hagans get together as part of his control of these guys.

 

Not much between Riley/Dexter and Spencer has changed. The temporary cease fire Dexter has called is motivated not by the lack of access he has to Spencer but by whatever Nix is currently running from.

 

As for Artie, he's a piece of work. Very little about him is face-value.

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I have to keep reading because I need to know how you are going to deal with cowardly Nix. I can find no good excuses for him to not get more involved in stopping the torture of Spencer. Grrr!

And I certainly cannot excuse Riley and Dexter for any underlying reason they have from their past. Jeez! I'm surprised he is still alive.

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I have to keep reading because I need to know how you are going to deal with cowardly Nix. I can find no good excuses for him to not get more involved in stopping the torture of Spencer. Grrr!

And I certainly cannot excuse Riley and Dexter for any underlying reason they have from their past. Jeez! I'm surprised he is still alive.

 

Nix's path is a complex and (I think at least) a redeeming one. He has to understand the situation a lot more than he currently does in order to fully help Spencer. Riley and Dexter--well, their motivation will be explained once the reader finds out what happened the night Connor died. I hope I don't disappoint you in future chapters. Happy readings!

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Part of me wishes that you would post faster :P

 

But then another part of me wants this to continue as I'm really enjoying it. I've fell totally for Spencer and I like the twist you've incorporated by having Max 'come out' to the readers. I really just want Nix to grow a pair and admit what he obviously feels for Spencer. And where are you going with Artie and his crew ? Questions upon question.

 

Loving your work !

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Part of me wishes that you would post faster Posted Image

 

But then another part of me wants this to continue as I'm really enjoying it. I've fell totally for Spencer and I like the twist you've incorporated by having Max 'come out' to the readers. I really just want Nix to grow a pair and admit what he obviously feels for Spencer. And where are you going with Artie and his crew ? Questions upon question.

 

Loving your work !

 

Sadly, I am only able to update this story about once a week. I have a process I personally go through before posting. It's a quirk of mine (in the words of *HJ*), and I just feel off balance when I don't follow my process.

 

I am glad that you are enjoying the story. Nix will figure out things in his own way, and as for Artie... you'll just have to wait and see. Posted Image

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I know you say Nix is slowly making small steps and I agree he has become better. However the failures just continue to accumulate and in reality do you ever forgive someone who has failed you so many times. Can someone ever really have confidence in such a person that when they need them that they would be there. I doubt it. I believe you would always expect them to fail you again at some time and complete forgiveness and confidence in real life would be near impossible.

Simialrly the abuse by Dexter and Riley has been so intense for such a long time, so frequent, basically daily that a victim would be so scarred, so traumatised that forgiveness would be absolutely impossible. A victim who had spent just one day in Spencer's shoes would have post traumatic stress disorder and would likely be on medication and having psychological therapy. This would likely be lifelong. In Spencer's case the trauma has been so incessant that this would be multiplied many times over. So in reality someone like Spencer would suffer lifelong from such abuse. You really would never get over it even if at some point his tormentors come to his rescue. So Dexter and Riley will have caused a lifelong psychological illness and trauma. So no matter what they do in helping Spencer they could never really earn redemption. I don't think so. They may kid themselves that they have but they wouldn't be living in Spencer's shoes for the rest of his life.

Edited by seanthomas
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I know you say Nix is slowly making small steps and I agree he has become better. However the failures just continue to accumulate and in reality do you ever forgive someone who has failed you so many times. Can someone ever really have confidence in such a person that when they need them that they would be there. I doubt it. I believe you would always expect them to fail you again at some time and complete forgiveness and confidence in real life would be near impossible.

Simialrly the abuse by Dexter and Riley has been so intense for such a long time, so frequent, basically daily that a victim would be so scarred, so traumatised that forgiveness would be absolutely impossible. A victim who had spent just one day in Spencer's shoes would have post traumatic stress disorder and would likely be on medication and having psychological therapy. This would likely be lifelong. In Spencer's case the trauma has been so incessant that this would be multiplied many times over. So in reality someone like Spencer would suffer lifelong from such abuse. You really would never get over it even if at some point his tormentors come to his rescue. So Dexter and Riley will have caused a lifelong psychological illness and trauma. So no matter what they do in helping Spencer they could never really earn redemption. I don't think so. They may kid themselves that they have but they wouldn't be living in Spencer's shoes for the rest of his life.

 

I think what my friend it trying to convey in this story is that Spencer is a very strong person at heart. My point is she is trying to show people that no matter how horrible things get you shouldn't give up.True he has been through hell and most people would not survive what he has gone through, but he is a tough little cookie. No one has said Spencer is not scarred for life by his tormentors I mean they can be pretty viscous at times. Point being is that her message is "to never give up". Riley and Dexter..yeah their assholes, but if you continue to read the story you will eventually understand why they think their actions against him are justified.

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I'm sorry but i totally disagree. You're giving a very shortsighted view of how Spencer copes. We are talking about Dexter & Riley's redemption. I'm saying a real person which Spencer represents would be permanently & irreversibly damaged in a very serious way for life from such abuse. It will never go way. So even if Dexter & Riley eventually do something heroic it will never erase the permanent longterm damage to Spencer. No-one is that strong to overcome the abuse Spencer suffers. It will be with him whether he is thirty, fifty or seventy. Dexter & Riley may feel good about some eventual help they provide to Spencer & go on living their happy lives. Spencer will live with the damage forever. So i'm challenging whether redemption is in any way feasible. In my eyes they could only earn redemption by sacrificing their lives ( or suffering an equivalent lifelong disability ) to save Spencer and maybe that will happen.

As for the justification for their actions that is going to take some astonishing reason given that they have never once asked Spencer for his side of what happened

Edited by seanthomas
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I'm really enjoying this story, but more because I like how almost everyone is a complete psychopath, not because I am waiting for them all to be redeemed. I think to enjoy this one you need to stop trying to fit it in the real world. In the real world Spencer would have already died from his injuries, with his killers locked in juvie.

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I'm really enjoying this story, but more because I like how almost everyone is a complete psychopath, not because I am waiting for them all to be redeemed. I think to enjoy this one you need to stop trying to fit it in the real world. In the real world Spencer would have already died from his injuries, with his killers locked in juvie.

 

I completely agree with you.

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I know you say Nix is slowly making small steps and I agree he has become better. However the failures just continue to accumulate and in reality do you ever forgive someone who has failed you so many times. Can someone ever really have confidence in such a person that when they need them that they would be there. I doubt it. I believe you would always expect them to fail you again at some time and complete forgiveness and confidence in real life would be near impossible.

Simialrly the abuse by Dexter and Riley has been so intense for such a long time, so frequent, basically daily that a victim would be so scarred, so traumatised that forgiveness would be absolutely impossible. A victim who had spent just one day in Spencer's shoes would have post traumatic stress disorder and would likely be on medication and having psychological therapy. This would likely be lifelong. In Spencer's case the trauma has been so incessant that this would be multiplied many times over. So in reality someone like Spencer would suffer lifelong from such abuse. You really would never get over it even if at some point his tormentors come to his rescue. So Dexter and Riley will have caused a lifelong psychological illness and trauma. So no matter what they do in helping Spencer they could never really earn redemption. I don't think so. They may kid themselves that they have but they wouldn't be living in Spencer's shoes for the rest of his life.

 

There are so many people who have "failed" Spencer that he doesn't hold any one accountable. He's almost grown accustom to dealing with things himself. While he hopes Nix will step in and save him every time, he knows that's an impossible feat for Nix to accomplish.

 

The thing about Spencer is that he doesn't give up. He's a fighter. He may not physically fight Riley and Dexter off, but he's not yet let them win. As long as he continues to live his life and doesn't commit suicide, Spencer is still fighting. I agree; he'll never truly get over what Riley and Dexter have done to him, but he will move on past it. He's not the type to hold a grudge.

 

I'm sorry but i totally disagree. You're giving a very shortsighted view of how Spencer copes. We are talking about Dexter & Riley's redemption. I'm saying a real person which Spencer represents would be permanently & irreversibly damaged in a very serious way for life from such abuse. It will never go way. So even if Dexter & Riley eventually do something heroic it will never erase the permanent longterm damage to Spencer. No-one is that strong to overcome the abuse Spencer suffers. It will be with him whether he is thirty, fifty or seventy. Dexter & Riley may feel good about some eventual help they provide to Spencer & go on living their happy lives. Spencer will live with the damage forever. So i'm challenging whether redemption is in any way feasible. In my eyes they could only earn redemption by sacrificing their lives ( or suffering an equivalent lifelong disability ) to save Spencer and maybe that will happen.

As for the justification for their actions that is going to take some astonishing reason given that they have never once asked Spencer for his side of what happened

 

I agree with what *HJ* said in her response. Dexter and Riley's redemption will (probably) not happen in the way you're expecting it to happen now at twenty-ish chapters in. They'll be redeemed in Spencer's eyes. While Spencer may carry a large part of his past with him, he doesn't let it dictate his daily life. As for asking Spencer for his side, (in defense of Riley and Dexter) Spencer has not tried to make a case for his side.

 

I'm really enjoying this story, but more because I like how almost everyone is a complete psychopath, not because I am waiting for them all to be redeemed. I think to enjoy this one you need to stop trying to fit it in the real world. In the real world Spencer would have already died from his injuries, with his killers locked in juvie.

 

I'm glad you're fascinated with the psychopathic characters within this story. You're correct; this story will be more enjoyable if you stop trying to fit in into the real world.

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In your comment of my review you mentioned that Spencer's reprieve was for an indetermined amount of time. By indetermined do you mean Dexter could change his mind at any time unclear to Spencer. So Spencer will know when the reprieve is up when he feels his fist or feels his arm around his throat. Also is the reprieve relating to allowing Spencer to associate with Nix or a reprieve from assault.

In another reader's review you mention that Dexter is not entirely heartless and that Spencer is a special case. I'm not convinced by that as it takes a particularly cruel sort of person to brutally assault someone nearly every day for 2 yrs without feeling some remorse. Especially in the case of a victim such as Spencer who clearly comes across as smaller, younger, weaker and even a moment's observation of him reveals he doesn't have a nasty bone in his body. I know the reasons will be revealed eventually and i've given up disputing your redemption claim but i nearly bit my tongue when you said he wasn't entirely heartless. My mind went straight to the punches he inflicted after the tazering. Dexter to me is the archtypical arsehole who always thinks he is right and any action is therefore justified.

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In your comment of my review you mentioned that Spencer's reprieve was for an indetermined amount of time. By indetermined do you mean Dexter could change his mind at any time unclear to Spencer. So Spencer will know when the reprieve is up when he feels his fist or feels his arm around his throat. Also is the reprieve relating to allowing Spencer to associate with Nix or a reprieve from assault.

In another reader's review you mention that Dexter is not entirely heartless and that Spencer is a special case. I'm not convinced by that as it takes a particularly cruel sort of person to brutally assault someone nearly every day for 2 yrs without feeling some remorse. Especially in the case of a victim such as Spencer who clearly comes across as smaller, younger, weaker and even a moment's observation of him reveals he doesn't have a nasty bone in his body. I know the reasons will be revealed eventually and i've given up disputing your redemption claim but i nearly bit my tongue when you said he wasn't entirely heartless. My mind went straight to the punches he inflicted after the tazering. Dexter to me is the archtypical arsehole who always thinks he is right and any action is therefore justified.

 

Thanks for pointing this out; I don't guess I was clear enough by 'undetermined amount of time'. Yes, I mean Dexter could change his mind at any time; however, Spencer will know almost immediately when Dexter ends the reprieve. He'll even know before Dexter or Riley bullies him. The reprieve applies to two things: Spencer can associate with Nix and he won't be bullied.

 

Dexter isn't completely heartless. To Spencer, he almost is, but to the rest of the world, he's not. Dexter (and Riley) sees Spencer in a different light than everyone else, especially Nix and the reader. Dexter witnessed the 'event'. I don't think Dexter's actions are justified, but I don't think he's completely heartless.

 

I hope this clears up a little bit. :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have been wondering with Dexter & Riley what exactly they are trying to achieve. I know the simple answer is to punish Spencer or to revenge Connor and I understand those reasons.

However usually someone sets themselves to a task with an end in sight. I suppose i mean they inflict a punishment & when that is achieved than they move on. I mean surely they have extracted their revenge already. They have now been punishing Spencer or revenging Connor for 2 years pretty much daily. So at the moment it seems there is no time limit to their punishment or revenge. Is it for the indefinite period of life where they are in contact with Spencer. Or are they hoping he will deal with it for them at some time by suicide. ( i know Spencer isn't the suicide type) . I understand they don't inflict the cruelty for sadistic pleasure although they have expressed those ideas at times. ( I think they describe it as their "fun" a few times). Dexter & Riley must have discussed exactly what they are trying to achieve over the long term. It is pretty clear that the reprieve won't last as they almost need to hurt him. Do you think they would be satisfied if he was to weaken and commit suicide. Would that be the only thing gives them peace of mind like an eye for eye does. Otherwise if things were to remain unchanged eventually there would be a point in time where Spencer leaves their environment by moving away and they would have no access to him. Is this going to leave them satisfied. So is the suicide of Spencer their real wish. It would make sense.

Edited by seanthomas
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I have been wondering with Dexter & Riley what exactly they are trying to achieve. I know the simple answer is to punish Spencer or to revenge Connor and I understand those reasons.

However usually someone sets themselves to a task with an end in sight. I suppose i mean they inflict a punishment & when that is achieved than they move on. I mean surely they have extracted their revenge already. They have now been punishing Spencer or revenging Connor for 2 years pretty much daily. So at the moment it seems there is no time limit to their punishment or revenge. Is it for the indefinite period of life where they are in contact with Spencer. Or are they hoping he will deal with it for them at some time by suicide. ( i know Spencer isn't the suicide type) . I understand they don't inflict the cruelty for sadistic pleasure although they have expressed those ideas at times. ( I think they describe it as their "fun" a few times). Dexter & Riley must have discussed exactly what they are trying to achieve over the long term. It is pretty clear that the reprieve won't last as they almost need to hurt him. Do you think they would be satisfied if he was to weaken and commit suicide. Would that be the only thing gives them peace of mind like an eye for eye does. Otherwise if things were to remain unchanged eventually there would be a point in time where Spencer leaves their environment by moving away and they would have no access to him. Is this going to leave them satisfied. So is the suicide of Spencer their real wish. It would make sense.

 

Riley and Dexter are trying to fulfill their promise to Connor. The "end" they're shooting for isn't clear or specifically stated. In chapter 22, Dexter states, "Every time I look at you, I think of him." That is Dexter's way of explaining himself (and Riley) to Spencer. Neither Riley nor Dexter hope to push Spencer into suicide; they just want 'justice' for what Spencer caused. If Spencer left, Dexter and Riley would no longer have to see him; they would have fulfilled their promise to Connor and would not bully Spencer any longer. But no, neither Riley nor Dexter wish Spencer to commit suicide. After all, that's the easy way out for not only Spencer but also for Dexter and Riley.

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Ok I accept their direct aim isn't the suicide of Connor but they must know that is a possibility. Schools around the world are putting time into education of teens about the risks of bullying especially teen suicide. So they know they could cause Spencer to suicide. We know Spencer is extraordinarily strong & he won't suicide but Dexter & Riley don't know that at all. In fact most teens under this sought of onslaught would be even likely to suicide. So this is a very real risk that Dexter & Riley would have considered. So if Spencer wasn't so strong and suicide happened are they going to be 1. concerned about his death 2.feel guilty about his death 3. neutral or emotionless about his death 4 be happy about his death as their job is over or 5. be disappointed (as you suggested) that their prey was dead and they couldn't continue their daily assaults.

I think this is a reasonable question to think about (even though Spencer won't suicide) as Dexter & Riley to their best knowledge would know it could happen. Hence in understanding their motivation i think a reader could easily ponder this question. I'm not sure you can leave their motivation to some robotic response that when they see Spencer they think Connor. They are human and must think beyond this automatic reponse at times and consider what if he suicides especially with their relentless predatory pursuit of Spencer.

Thank you for your awesome story which always has readers like me thinking about it.

Edited by seanthomas
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Ok I accept their direct aim isn't the suicide of Connor but they must know that is a possibility. Schools around the world are putting time into education of teens about the risks of bullying especially teen suicide. So they know they could cause Spencer to suicide. We know Spencer is extraordinarily strong & he won't suicide but Dexter & Riley don't know that at all. In fact most teens under this sought of onslaught would be even likely to suicide. So this is a very real risk that Dexter & Riley would have considered. So if Spencer wasn't so strong and suicide happened are they going to be 1. concerned about his death 2.feel guilty about his death 3. neutral or emotionless about his death 4 be happy about his death as their job is over or 5. be disappointed (as you suggested) that their prey was dead and they couldn't continue their daily assaults.

I think this is a reasonable question to think about (even though Spencer won't suicide) as Dexter & Riley to their best knowledge would know it could happen. Hence in understanding their motivation i think a reader could easily ponder this question. I'm not sure you can leave their motivation to some robotic response that when they see Spencer they think Connor. They are human and must think beyond this automatic reponse at times and consider what if he suicides especially with their relentless predatory pursuit of Spencer.

Thank you for your awesome story which always has readers like me thinking about it.

 

Deep down, Riley and Dexter both realize that suicide is a possibility for Spencer, but it's sorta one of those 'it can never happen to me' things. If Spencer was the suicidal type, he would have cashed in a long time ago; however, hypothetically, if Spencer committed suicide, Riley and Dexter would react in a mixture of 1, 2, and 5. Depending on the day and the circumstances, they could lean closer to 5 than 1 or two.

 

Admitting this, it doesn't change anything about Riley and Dexter's promise to Connor. It's still a matter of 'when I see you, I think of him'. Imagine the worst thing you've ever witnessed. Now imagine seeing it over and over again. This is how it is for Riley and Dexter. No, the 'event' wasn't the worst thing they've ever saw, but it was the circumstances of it all.

 

You've posed very good questions. Questions I neglected to address while writing this. I just hope I have answered your questions to the best of my ability and can contain your attention through the last chapter of the story.

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Thanks, i felt it would be 1,2 & 3 as well. I suppose the fact that 3 might be dominant does confirm a fairly hard, cruel edge to their personalities.

Of course the reaction of Nix could really change their whole reaction. I wonder if their friendship with Nix could last Spencer's suicide.

I also wonder if Dexter & Riley ponder the paradox of this quiet,timid person who children adore, who nevers says anything bad to anyone even when being assaulted and doesn't even report them when they assault him and yet they assess him as just filth. Spencer isn't an easy person to hate even for Riley & Dexter. I guess they are so blinded by their hate that they don't see the clues in front of them.

Edited by seanthomas
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Thanks, i felt it would be 1,2 & 3 as well. I suppose the fact that 3 might be dominant does confirm a fairly hard, cruel edge to their personalities.

Of course the reaction of Nix could really change their whole reaction. I wonder if their friendship with Nix could last Spencer's suicide.

I also wonder if Dexter & Riley ponder the paradox of this quiet,timid person who children adore, who nevers says anything bad to anyone even when being assaulted and doesn't even report them when they assault him and yet they assess him as just filth. Spencer isn't an easy person to hate even for Riley & Dexter. I guess they are so blinded by their hate that they don't see the clues in front of them.

 

You're right; Nix's reaction would pull a lot of weight in Riley and Dexter's reaction. Spencer's involvement with the children in the hospital does effect Riley and Dexter a little bit but not enough to warrant a total cease-fire. Spencer wouldn't be an easy person to hate, but witnessing the 'event' makes it easier for Riley and Dexter to hate him. Yes, this hatred does blind them somewhat.

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I was re-reading the reviews for this chapter & i note you wrote to a reviewer that Zeke is a hard character to dislike. I don't like Zeke at all. He knows Artie's intentions for Spencer are bad. Yet he pretended to be all caring & sweet to Spencer. I think that was particularly sinister. I think he is Artie's main lieutenant and knows more of Artie's evil plans than the rest. He knows Spencer is being beaten at home. He knows he is beaten at school. He pretends to be sweet and nice to Spencer which is what Artie needs to spring his trap. I not sure Dean knows the extent of harm Artie plans to inflict on Spencer but he probably is in on the full extent of it. I think Hagan who has trouble containing his hate for Spencer is still the most likely to help Spencer when the time comes that Spencer is in extreme danger. By the way i think Artie is behind Porter possibly paying him to do his dirty work at the school.

Anyway that is some of my theories at present. I'm certain Zeke is bad.

I count the days down to the next chapter..... 3 more sleeps, lol

Edited by seanthomas
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I was re-reading the reviews for this chapter & i note you wrote to a reviewer that Zeke is a hard character to dislike. I don't like Zeke at all. He knows Artie's intentions for Spencer are bad. Yet he pretended to be all caring & sweet to Spencer. I think that was particularly sinister. I think he is Artie's main lieutenant and knows more of Artie's evil plans than the rest. He knows Spencer is being beaten at home. He knows he is beaten at school. He pretends to be sweet and nice to Spencer which is what Artie needs to spring his trap. I not sure Dean knows the extent of harm Artie plans to inflict on Spencer but he probably is in on the full extent of it. I think Hagan who has trouble containing his hate for Spencer is still the most likely to help Spencer when the time comes that Spencer is in extreme danger. By the way i think Artie is behind Porter possibly paying him to do his dirty work at the school.

Anyway that is some of my theories at present. I'm certain Zeke is bad.

I count the days down to the next chapter..... 3 more sleeps, lol

 

I personally think Zeke is a hard character to dislike. From Spencer's point of view, Zeke is a nice guy. Zeke may know a lot, but he is not all-knowing. The same can be said for Dean and Hagan. It's not smart to put all of your eggs in the same basket, so to speak. As for Hagan's hatred... that'll be explained in full detail by him, actually.

 

You have very good speculations, especially considering the amount of information not only known but also unknown to you at the moment. The next chapter (chapter 26) should shed a little more light on Zeke, and until then, keep speculating. Posted Image

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I decided that maybe i have been too harsh with my judgement of Zeke. The problem i have with all of Zeke's gang is that they are lulling Spencer into a false friendship with the aim of hurting him and not just emotionally. So i have judged them harshly as a group. However i hadn't considered the "Spencer effect". So Zeke despite being deceitful in this false friendship seems a genuine guy and maybe starting to care for Spencer which would be something Artie wouldn't have planned on. Spencer's basic sweetness might yet melt Zeke causing him to help Spencer when the time for help comes.

Also Hagan who hates Spencer seems a nice guy. He cares deeply for Max and cares about Max's relationship with Nix. I have to believe Hagan will also help Spencer when he is in danger because i think it is a matter of time before Max and hence Hagan will know Nix loves Spencer.

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