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The Paradox of Friendship


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Hi Sunshine

I'm actually a little confused. You stated that only Artie and Colin were ever in that room. However i don't understand how Spencer got to that room and than was stripped and brutally held by restraints.. Also in chapter 32 Dean strongly implies that he was looking forward with excitement at their plans for Spencer. "Its time to celebrate". That sounds like he can't wait to actively participate..It seemed like he was just itching to be involved in the "fun" not just be a person in another part of the house listening to the screams. I just can't see Artie getting Spencer to go to that room without force. Spencer was already" chilled to the bone". The moment Spencer saw Colin he would have realised what was happening as he would have had almost immediate flashbacks causing him to resist..I just find it hard to believe that none of the others were not involved either actively or passively in getting Spencer into that room. Also a fighting struggling Spencer would be difficult to tie down and restrain even with just 2 people. He was not going to lie down & let them tie him up. He would resist strongly. It seemed to me at least 3 people would be needed to strip and tie Spencer up. I'm have trouble picturing this all happening without the others not getting involved. Previously they all actively had a role in planning this night and were getting quite excited by their coming night's events in chapter 32. They had afterall got Spencer there to hurt him and to be the "entertainment " for their party.

Edited by seanthomas
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One thing I need to understand, on the firsts chapter Spencer told Nix he causes people around him to get hurt. why did he say something like that? Does he actully believes he's the cause Connor is dead?

Edited by Manu
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Hi Sunshine

I'm actually a little confused. You stated that only Artie and Colin were ever in that room. However i don't understand how Spencer got to that room and than was stripped and brutally held by restraints.. Also in chapter 32 Dean strongly implies that he was looking forward with excitement at their plans for Spencer. "Its time to celebrate". That sounds like he can't wait to actively participate..It seemed like he was just itching to be involved in the "fun" not just be a person in another part of the house listening to the screams. I just can't see Artie getting Spencer to go to that room without force. Spencer was already" chilled to the bone". The moment Spencer saw Colin he would have realised what was happening as he would have had almost immediate flashbacks causing him to resist..I just find it hard to believe that none of the others were not involved either actively or passively in getting Spencer into that room. Also a fighting struggling Spencer would be difficult to tie down and restrain even with just 2 people. He was not going to lie down & let them tie him up. He would resist strongly. It seemed to me at least 3 people would be needed to strip and tie Spencer up. I'm have trouble picturing this all happening without the others not getting involved. Previously they all actively had a role in planning this night and were getting quite excited by their coming night's events in chapter 32. They had afterall got Spencer there to hurt him and to be the "entertainment " for their party.

 

There are many ways Spencer could have gotten to that room. Due to the fact that that question is answered in a future chapter, I will refrain from answering now. Dean does imply that he is looking forward to their plans for Spencer, but he was more looking forward to scaring Spencer and getting revenge for the car accident that claimed Connor's life. (Recall in chapter nineteen Kendall and Reese said Dean and his brother, Eli, were hanging out Connor the night he died.) As for Spencer fighting back, that will also be addressed in later chapters, but previous events should shed a bit of light on Spencer's reaction to those situations. They all may have played their part in befriending Spencer and getting him to that party, but that does not necessarily mean they knew everything that was going to take place.

 

One thing I need to understand, on the firsts chapter Spencer told Nix he causes people around him to get hurt. why did he say something like that? Does he actully believes he's the cause Connor is dead?

 

You pose two very good questions. Why does Spencer insist those around him get hurt? And does he believe he's the reason Connor's dead? Spencer's feelings surrounding Connor's death are quite firm, and he tell the story of his past with Connor in chapter 36, which will be posted on Tuesday. I'm reluctant at the moment, therefore, because I don't want to spoil Spencer's story. If, after reading the next chapter, you still have those questions, I will gladly answer them. :)

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I was wondering about the contents of the text sent by Ember to the rest of her group. Telling them they were going to Dean's place to save Spencer would really confuse all of them especially Dexter & Riley. Did she mention the discredited photo evidence. It would be good to give Dexter and Riley some discomfort to think about as they travel home.

 

You mentioned Dean was only trying to scare Spencer as revenge. However he was clearly unmoved by several hours of screaming by Spencer as he prepared his popcorn. He is either stupid to not suspect Colin was torturing Spencer to death or he wanted to do a lot more than just scare Spencer.

 

Also you stated that Artie's gang didn't necessarily consider Colin was the cause of Spencer's new injuries and could just as easily suspected Riley & Dexter or Potter but that ignores two really important things. Firstly they were at the party where Colin led Spencer away. They knew it was a setup for Spencer and Colin wasn't there to be nice to Spencer. Secondly in all the time they had seen Spencer his injuries were no where near as graphic or clearly life threatening as the choke marks on his neck & facial bruising were this time. Clearly something different happened and they must have known it was Colin. The new injuries were enough to alarm Nix who had seen Spencer injured many times and enough to draw it to Dr Willow's attention.

 

Also even if they really didn't know it was Colin who inflicted them wouldn't these new alarming injuries cause them to ask Artie if he knew what happened and also more importantly cause them to question Artie about re-thinking their plans to furthur hurt Spencer. The fact that they didn't do that shows that all including Zeke Trudy and Hagan lacked humanity. They all know especially Zeke that Spencer is being bashed by Potter's gang, Dexter and Riley, his stepfather and they should strongly suspect Colin. Yet they let it go ahead and wait for several hours of torture before they intervene

 

I also think it is really important to know if they even would have intervened if Spencer was gagged and several hours screaming hadn't got to much for their conscience. Spencer would probably died in this situation, choked to death.

I agree they saved Spencer's life, They can definitely be differentiated from Artie and Colin. However been differentiated from absolute madmen isn't anything to be a source of honour. They can also be differentiated from Dean and Lilyah who are callous human beings with no redeeming features.

I also think the argument that after their long friendship it was reasonable for them to follow " Artie's lead without question" is hollow. Most people have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong and this was clearly hugely wrong from the beginning and people like Trudy and Zeke need verly little in a moral or ethical code to tell them this was so wrong from the start. You don't do something so bad just because someone who is a friend requests it. Otherwise its like saying we can excuse people like Charlie Manson's" family". Spencer could have died & probably would have if he was gagged . He actually survived because madmen like Colin and Artie enjoyed his screams. but the others didn't in the end.

What is really puzzling is that people like Trudy and Zeke let the whole thing escalate to this point. I say that because i don't think they are bad people and because i don't believe they were under some Manson cult like influence doing the work of a madmen without question. Yet up until 345am on that night they acted just like someone under the influence of a madman cult type figure despite having endless opportunities to stop it earlier.

If you think about it, this has got to the point where Zeke himself quite realistically considers he might go to gaol for it. What was Zeke himself or Trudy ever going to benefit from it. It is very confusing and really quite sad when people like Trudy and Zeke seem basically nice but get involved in something so bad. They must expect punishment even with their extremely late good action. Yes they saved Spencer's life but they were absolutely responsible for his torture and rape.

Edited by seanthomas
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Ember's text message was vague. She just mentioned that she and Nix were going to help Spencer and that she would explain everything later. It wasn't very detailed, but she didn't expect anyone to get the message until the next morning, when Ember could explain what was going on (or what she knew of it).

 

Dean and his brother Eli were close to Connor. They blamed Spencer for Connor's death. Because of this, Dean steeled himself from Spencer's screams. He wanted revenge; this was a way to get it.

 

Artie's gang was there when Collin led Spencer away, but it was a party. There were thousands of other things going on. No one expected Collin to hurt Spencer at that party, and they were unaware of most of the specifics of Artie's plans. Also, Artie was the only one who saw him the next morning; the others had either already left or were still sleeping when Artie and Spencer left. The others did not see him until the ice cream parlor later on that day; there would have been hours for Spencer to have run into some other trouble.

 

If they would have asked Artie if he knew what happened to Spencer, it would have been all too easy for him to lie to them. A little white lie would not have hurt Artie. It also wasn't as easy for the three (Trudy, Zeke, and Hagan) to snap out of the 'trance' Artie had them under. They've been friends with Artie for a while; they respect him. They have not until now spoken against him. For any of them to stand up to Artie and to put a plan into motion to thwart Artie's plan, that took a lot of guts. I doubt one of the three could have stopped Artie--even if that one person had been Zeke. I also doubt two of the three could have stopped Artie. It took all three of them to build up enough force to stop Artie (and Collin and the others who supported Artie).

 

They were mostly unaware of what was going on in the room between Spencer and Connor. Eventually, they worked out that just 'scaring' Spencer was not what Artie had in mind. Had Spencer been gagged, it may have taken a little while longer for someone to speak up and ask about Spencer. Or it might not have. (Why didn't Artie or Collin gag Spencer? Because they wanted to hear every second of pain that he experienced. They wanted immediate satisfaction from what they were doing.)

 

I don't mean to at any point infer that Hagan, Trudy, and Zeke are now 'guilt-free' because they stopped Artie and Collin. Those three are not. They will suffer repercussions, and some of those repercussions will be worse than others. They did play a hand--both knowingly and unknowingly--in this event, and they will pay for their parts.

 

This story is largely told from Nix's point of view, who has very little contact with Artie and his gang. Because of that, the narration leaves out a large part of their histories and some parts of their characteristics. One of the reasons they all followed Artie was loyalty and respect (though he turned out not to deserve either of those). But that is only one of the reasons. Another reason, for example, is Zeke's past (which will be hinted at later on in the story); it plays a large part in his character as a whole--in how he's changed since the very first time he was introduced.

 

(With the obvious exception of Spencer) Trudy, Zeke, and Hagan got the worst ends of the deal. They stood up to Artie and saved Spencer at their own expenses. Zeke already pointed out the facts to Artie. He knew, as well as the other two, that he was (and they were) going to get punished for what they had been involved in even if they were the ones who put a stop to it. It's not just the legal side of the entire situation that will hurt those three. They are not quite the deceivers they started out being, but it may unfortunately be a little too late for them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Miss Sunshine I am thorougly enjoying this story, it has had me chuckling; laughing; crying and seathing with anger over the antics of the antagonists. Having said that there is a minor detail that has been nagging for quite some time. You see in the first chapter when Spencer was being tortured, raped and beaten his glasses fell and were kicked across the hall and Nix picked them up and later gave them to Spencer, however there has been no mention of said glasses since. Any reason why? As a person who wears glasses I know that they get in the way and I am sure that as Spencer has been getting his severe bet downs his glasses surely would have gotten in the way. I don't expect that they should be mentioned in every chapter but at key moments just a reminder that Spencer does have glasses. Just had to get that of my chest. Thanks for reading and continued success with this story.

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Miss Sunshine I am thorougly enjoying this story, it has had me chuckling; laughing; crying and seathing with anger over the antics of the antagonists. Having said that there is a minor detail that has been nagging for quite some time. You see in the first chapter when Spencer was being tortured, raped and beaten his glasses fell and were kicked across the hall and Nix picked them up and later gave them to Spencer, however there has been no mention of said glasses since. Any reason why? As a person who wears glasses I know that they get in the way and I am sure that as Spencer has been getting his severe bet downs his glasses surely would have gotten in the way. I don't expect that they should be mentioned in every chapter but at key moments just a reminder that Spencer does have glasses. Just had to get that of my chest. Thanks for reading and continued success with this story.

 

I'm glad you enjoy the story.

 

Honestly, beyond the first incident with Spencer's glasses, I mostly forgot about that little detail about him. Posted Image I was re-reading this story earlier this week and realized my error. His glasses would definitely add a bit to many scenes through out the story. At some point I plan to go back and add in references to Spencer's glasses so that the reader remembers them. I have no idea when I'll get to that though.

 

Thank you for pointing this out to me. I hope you continue to enjoy the story. :)

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Before I start, I just wanted to say that your writing skills are good,a few grammar mistakes and name mixups, but nothing majorly annoying.

 

But, I cannot continue reading this story. I usually like angsty stories where the characters have to overcome their difficulties together, but this...

It's sick. I understand everything you've said before, about the lack of adult interference and your own feelings about Dexter and Riley. I just can't deal with them. I get very involved when I'm reading a story, and all the blatant abuse and humiliation is going to make me have a heart attack I'm so angry. Like everyone else, I hate Dexter and Riley. Dexter is the typical fairly stupid asshole jock with his barely better than bitch girlfriend. But Riley seems to have some brains, and that's where I really start fuming. He may not be a sadist, but he most definitely has some kind of psychological disorder. People running on normal brainwaves don't think it's okay, and derive pleasure from, beating and humiliating people. It just doesn't happen. And no matter what has happened in their past, in NO WAY does it justify their behavior. They may blame it on him, but to me it just seems that they're using that "justification" as a way to get their own sick desires out. If it wasn't Spencer, they would find someone else.

 

And their friends disgust me. For me, not one of them has any redeeming qualities. I may be biased because I absolutely abhor those types of people, but still. None of them are kind. None of them seem to care about anything beyond their own little group. They're all extraordinarily selfish. And they're all cowardly bitches. Especially Nix. I mean, goddamn. Ew. Nothing worthy or reliable there.

 

But besides the whole characters thing, it's like there's no break from the pain in your plot. There's barely any maturation. It gets tiresome. Spencer's constantly getting beat up, and Nix is constantly failing. Rinse and repeat. It's more than a little sad.

 

I'm sorry if i have offended you in any way. You really do have talent as a writer. This story was just a bit much for me.

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Roychelray:

 

I assume you didn't make it very far into the story, but that's alright if you could not. I knew before I ever posted this story that it would be a hard one to handle in some cases. I didn't care. I wrote this story for myself. I didn't write it with the intents of it being read by anyone and being critiqued. As the author, I love every character (in different ways: plot wise, characterization, usefulness, overall, etc). I appreciate the storyline I've created and, of course, I know more than just the average person about each of the characters and their pasts/futures. Before I posted it, there was one person who had read every word I'd written on it, including some of the things that got scratched out. This person helped me 'snowball' ideas and talk out potential plot lines. I've seen firsthand this person's responses to the majority of scenes within this story so I always had an idea of how a scene could be read or interpreted.

 

With all of that being said, I am very aware that Riley and Dexter are unlikeable characters; however, I wouldn't go as far as to say they're flat characters or that they are unlikeable all of the time. I would not say Dexter is a 'typical fairly stupid [] jock with his barely better than [...] girlfriend.' Dexter can a jerk, and he can certainly be a bully. Observe him anywhere but around Spencer, and he's an all right guy. There is more than just the Dexter that is presented to Spencer. There is the Dexter around his friends and the Dexter with Reese (who, by the way, isn't as bad as what's presented in the beginning of the story). While you probably think I am defending Dexter because he's my character and I love him, I am merely pointing out that ignoring certain qualities of Dexter that only appear when he isn't around Spencer is not fair to Dexter. He isn't a jerk or a bully all of the time.

 

Neither Riley nor Dexter have a psychological disorder. Human emotions are very powerful--so powerful that they can cause people to act against their better judgments for even a long period of time. The 'event' may or may not 'justify' their actions to an outsider, it does to them. This may sound harsh, but that's all that matters to them. They know more about the 'event' than Nix or their other friends or the reader does early on in the story. They're not just bullying Spencer because he is there for them to bully. They wouldn't bully someone else if he wasn't there. There is a reason they're mean to him. They're not just sadistic or cold-hearted or down right awful human beings.

 

While I would agree with you that their friends are selfish in that they do not care about anything beyond their own little group, I would ask: is that really an absolutely awful thing? Is that any different than what people do in our world? They have their friends and the people care about. That does not mean they have to care about everyone. That does not mean they have to go out of their ways to make sure everyone that they come into contact with every single day is okay and loving life. I would go as far as to say they don't owe others anything more than what is owed them: respect, common courtesy, etc. But wait. Haven't I just contradicted myself? Maybe. But have any of them (save Ember, who is a special case) gone out of their way to be mean to Spencer? I don't think so. They may not have stood up to Riley and Dexter (which could make them equally as guilty but I digress) but they have not been purposefully mean to Spencer. They've even attempted to be civil towards him. Kendall insisted Parker keep him company after Nix stood up for Spencer against Porter. Reese makes the statement of "he's not that bad" at some point in the story. While no, they do not save Spencer from Riley and Dexter, they do, however, act civilly towards him.

 

Nix is different, though. You doubt he has any redeeming qualities, but he does. They're just buried deep inside in the beginning of the story because of something that's happened in his past. Nix does fail a lot, especially in the beginning, but that does not mean he always will fail. He's a work in progress, something that is obvious throughout the story. He has his stepping stones and his backtracking moments, but he can be redeemed (if only in the most important way).

 

I'm not sure how far you've gotten in the story. I doubt very far, because there is no mention of Artie or of any of his friends. There is more break from pain in the plot than it appears to be in the beginning. The beginning, after all, is very lengthy because there is so much that needs to be set up. Spencer isn't always beaten up. He actually finds a bit of solace many times throughout the course of the story. Nix doesn't always fail. There is more (a whole lot more) to the story than just Spencer getting beaten up and Nix failing to save him.

 

This is a longer response than I expected to write. If it seems like I've attacked you, it was unintentional. I hope I have explained a little bit of the bigger picture. Thanks for giving this story a shot, and happy readings in whatever you read in the future. Posted Image

Edited by InTheMindOfSunshine
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First let me say, I wrote and tried to post a message to the topic a couple of weeks ago and thankfully, my connection died and the post didnt make it. I say that because it probably reveals a lot more about my personal life than I would like to have out there. Having said that, I am going to reveal some things that I have only told maybe 3 people in my entire 54 years and beyond that only 2 others know but since they are the ones who caused it....well you understand.

 

I have had a hard time reading this story. It is one of very few that dealt with abuse that seems to capture all the emotion the victim goes through. I know, from experience I know. For that, I would say two things. First it is amazing that you were able to put that emotion in to the character of Spencer and second (and I hope you understand) damn you for putting that kind of emotion in to the character. I have stopped reading this story several times since I first found it but have come back because in large part, it seems somewhat cathartic. Having just finished the most recent chapter, I can now see some happy times for Spencer and am glad for that. I wish that could have been something I found at that age but I still had years of darkness ahead before I got to that point. I have read a lot of the reviews and some people seem to think that all the gratuitous violence is overdone. Well in reality it probably is overdone but on the other hand, I see it as giving people who have had no experience in that type of thing, something that will really shock them in to seeing what human nature can really be like.

 

I also dont see where some of the opinoins are coming from. From the very beginning when Artie was introduced, it was obvious he was damaged. How his group of friends did not see that can also be easily explained. How else could a seemingly loving normal and caring parent function in a normal working environment on a daily basis and have "friends" who occassionaly show up at their house and have those friends and church members think they are such fine upstanding "God fearing" people while behind closed doors are children with broken bones, battered psychies, and other abuses too difficult to mention. Someone would say these are kids, and I would say they are older than 16 obviously so they have started and in some cases completely formed their human or inhuman feelings toward others. I can agree with one line of thought that Zeke, Trudy and Haiden should be punished because being a follower does not excuse someones actions and I dont care what you say, if they were not damaged, they would not have followed Artie as far as they had. I also think that Riley and Derrick still owe a debt and should have to pay something.

 

I am hoping that the pain and humiliation that Spencer has been suffering has come to an end (I know Porter and some of the others may cause some problems but am hoping that Nix as well as Riley and Derrick put an end to that). I do forsee some coming fight between Nix and the drunk mothers boyfriend. I am looking for some pay back here as well.

 

Anyway, I am going to post this one but I want to close it out by saying, unless there is a drastic change in the current direction, I am so looking forward to the next chapters. You are a very good writer. It is hard for me to imagine that a female could write such a good gay story involving guys but you are doing just that. Thanks and keep up the good work.

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Hello In the mind of Sunshine! I skimmed a little of chapter 1 but haven't read any further. First, I wanted to say that I'm glad that you are keeping as steady posting schedule but wanted to ask when you anticipated finishing? I really want to read but there are a few stories that I've been waiting until they are finished so I can read in one sitting :D I'm flipping impatient and wouldn't want to be a bothersome pain (Which I totally would be :P ) If I had to wait. The reviews and comments have me really excited to read sooooooo hurry up and finish ( Posted Image See, I can't contain myself)

 

Thanks! KC

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sdaddy:

 

I've received many different responses from this story, and yours has been one of the most moving ones. I've known since I first began writing it that it would be a difficult story to read. The character of Spencer was the only character that I did not sketch out to begin with. I knew the basics of Nix and the rest of his friends, but I did not plan out Spencer. Spencer was a response to the situation he was placed in. A friend of mine would say that I put Spencer through everything that I did because I can't write fluffy stories, but that has very little to do with it. I wanted to explore the darker side relationships and the different levels of friendship. From the very beginning, while I was still playing around with different story lines, I knew this story was going to be a bit dark, but I always knew there would be relief and a [mostly] happy ending for Spencer. He deserved it. I couldn't keep that from him.

 

Artie is a very meticulous character. Before the fateful party, Artie was very much sane and not nearly as cruel. He's been friends with the others for a long time. He was friends with all of them before that party. His friends barely noticed the change in Artie, because he was meticulous enough to keep it concealed for the most part from them. Artie's friends are old enough to form their own opinions, which is what happened when Zeke, Trudy, and Hagan spoke up at Dean's; it just took them a while to do so. I believe this is explained a bit in the next chapter which will be posted on Tuesday(ish). Everyone who was involved with that should be punished. There is quite a lot for them to pay for and for many characters to make up for.

 

I don't want to say much about the future of Spencer for now. I mean, I would love to tell everything, but I have qualms about doing so. I don't want to spoil anything.

 

Thank you for your response to this story, and I'm glad you like the story. I do hope that I do not disappoint you in future chapters. While I'm not happy that you can relate to this story because of your experiences, I am happy that it's spoken to you. I hope that Spencer's happiness has met your satisfaction and that you enjoy the chapters to come.

 

 

 

KC Grim:

 

You have happened upon the story at rather good time. There are two chapters left, which will be posted on the next two Tuesdays and will therefore be completed in about two weeks--that is, of course, assuming that nothing drastic happens between now and then. I'm glad that this has caught your interest, and I hope that you enjoy the story. It's a bit dark and (according to a friend of mine who actually had to wait until each piece was written to read it) a bit frustrating at times. Hopefully that doesn't scare you off. Posted Image

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Dang, Sunshine, the journey's almost over, I don't want to get off this ride. I hated Dex and Riley the entire time, but I knew Spencer was going to have his redemption. I sure hope Artie gets his ass whooped by someone, though. That boy deserves it. Wouldn't mind seeing Spencer get a little jailhouse justice from D & R but I guess that ship has sailed. Anyway, kudos on a great story. Aside from a few huge authors here, I gotta say this novel was the best I've read, and if a story deserves a publishing, it's definitely this one :D

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Dang, Sunshine, the journey's almost over, I don't want to get off this ride. I hated Dex and Riley the entire time, but I knew Spencer was going to have his redemption. I sure hope Artie gets his ass whooped by someone, though. That boy deserves it. Wouldn't mind seeing Spencer get a little jailhouse justice from D & R but I guess that ship has sailed. Anyway, kudos on a great story. Aside from a few huge authors here, I gotta say this novel was the best I've read, and if a story deserves a publishing, it's definitely this one Posted Image

 

It's a bit surreal that I will post the last chapter of this story on Tuesday(-ish), but I'm glad you've enjoyed it. Riley and Dexter were (and still are) hard to like or even stand at times. There will be a bit of justice for all of the wrongdoings, but it might not be as satisfying as you're hoping. I do agree, though, that Artie does deserve his rear end beaten. :)

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I just read the last chapter and I really enjoyed it. I must admit, you are right in the fact that the punishments Artie's gang received weren't as satisfying as I thought they would be, but then that wouldn't be life would it? We can't all be satisfied all the time! Anyway, I really loved your story and I hope you really do start a sequel because I would most definitely read it! Happy writing!

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I just read the last chapter and I really enjoyed it. I must admit, you are right in the fact that the punishments Artie's gang received weren't as satisfying as I thought they would be, but then that wouldn't be life would it? We can't all be satisfied all the time! Anyway, I really loved your story and I hope you really do start a sequel because I would most definitely read it! Happy writing!

 

I'm glad you've enjoyed the story. The last chapter has actually gone through a couple of changes since I first finished this story a few months back. Originally, there was no mention of Artie and the others' punishments. I ultimately decided that not only did Spencer deserve to know but the reader also deserved to know. The punishments aren't satisfying, but you're right that's life. (Which is why I didn't change their punishments after I had decided on them.) At this moment in time, I do plan to finish and post the sequel (which might address their punishments a little more in-depth.)

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Thank You for bringing us this story. Just finished your story and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am looking forward to the sequel as well because I'd llike to see how Spencer and Phoenix's budding relationship progresess. I'd also like to see how Spencers life progress, such as does he get out from under his mothers abuse? Will he live with Nix and family or will he be fostered? These and many other questions need to be answered. Oh and does he get a new pair of glasses of maybe somebody paid for Lasik surgery for him.

Until next time,

Happy Holidays; Halloween, Thanksgiving,Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanza.

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Thank You for bringing us this story. Just finished your story and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am looking forward to the sequel as well because I'd llike to see how Spencer and Phoenix's budding relationship progresess. I'd also like to see how Spencers life progress, such as does he get out from under his mothers abuse? Will he live with Nix and family or will he be fostered? These and many other questions need to be answered. Oh and does he get a new pair of glasses of maybe somebody paid for Lasik surgery for him.

Until next time,

Happy Holidays; Halloween, Thanksgiving,Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanza.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the story. I'm in the midst of writing the sequel, and it's coming along rather well. It'll see the progression of Spencer and Phoenix's relationship and Spencer's home life following the ending of this story, and the issue with Spencer's glasses might be solved in one way or another.

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  • 2 months later...

I finished this entire series in a day and a half and I couldn't resist making an account just so I could reply to this forum  ;) . I am going to apologize beforehand for this long ass and how it sounds like I am ranting in some places  :blushing: .

 

This story has been bothering me for the better part of the day, and I couldn't understand why I feel so upset about it. I understood all the (protagonist) characters and why they did what they did. Yes, I even understood Riley, Dexter and Ember. I should be happy for Spencer when he was saved by Nix and they lived happily ever after (for now), and definitely satisfied that he finally found true friends. But as I was reading, I noticed how much humility Spencer had; helping Riley with his calculus work, easily forgiving Nix time and time again for not standing up for him. But this all seemed understandable to me at the time where Spencer is concerned because the reason for his humility seemed to be because he desperately craved friendship. But then in the end, Spencer forgives all the people who genuinely apologized to him for their wrongdoings. I remember this one part where Spencer thought to himself that these people were human and sometimes humans make terrible mistakes. He's definitely not wrong there. But what upset me is that I feel they (meaning Riley, Dexter, Ember, Hagan, Trudy etc) didn't really pay for what they did to Spencer in the two years his life was made hell. So what? They apologize from the bottom of their heart and Spencer, as expected, forgives them? Where's the justice in that? This kid was beaten, raped, humiliated, tortured in the span of two years and he just says "okay"? If you turned the story around to make it seem like Artie, Dean and Collin were somehow super sorry for what they did to Spencer, would he have forgiven them too?

 

I feel that while a lot of the bully protagonists did lack a certain amount of humility, Spencer also had a little too much of it. This could also be said about the argument of whether Riley and Dexter are really "good" people. I read some of your responses, and I do get that they are considered good because of their overall character. I might have believed that their bullying was to defend Reese's honor, but the way they acted so violent towards Spencer, physically shoving, punching, beating and tasering him... it was really almost too much to read. Almost as bad as the rape scenes. Another part that bothered me was the scene when they were at the hotel and Porter and his gang grabbed Spencer and whipped him to hell on the bed. Nix found him, released him blah blah.. and then I realized that Parker was helping to free Spencer. What happened with that? Did Spencer ever think that maybe the bullying was getting a little too much? Even if Riley and Dexter had nothing to do with that scene, why didn't Parker start noticing that the treatment of Spencer was unusually harsh? Is Nix the only character besides Spencer with an actual heart? I know this is such a minor detail in an otherwise large story but my point was that it was very small things like this that made me feel really depressed for Spencer. I feel that the others should have paid a little bit more for what they did, and I think that losing Spencer as a potential friend could have taught them an even better lesson, especially if Nix decided to not leave Spencer's side or something like that. If Spencer maybe told them he couldn't be friends with them, that would say a great deal on how much he grew as a character. 

 

 

I really wasn't trying to find loopholes in your plot or anything, that was certainly not the case! I was just sad about the story and thought I'd try letting it out  0:) . I really do love this story though.... I know I have a funny way of showing it, but I love any story that can get me thinking long and hard. I believe that is an author can't strike up a good argument with their stories, then they aren't doing their job ;) . And you got me to start an account just so I could talk about this story - which says a lot about how powerful your writing is. I can't wait for you to continue this series and will be sure to follow it and possibly come back to discuss it in the future.

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girlunderground:

 

I'm glad that you've enjoyed the story. Thank you for responding to it. My response, it seems, will be as long as, if not longer than, yours was. 

 

There is a sequel in the works for this story. It's taking me a little longer to write it due to unforeseen set backs, but it will eventually get finished and posted within the next few months. I knew as soon as I finished "The Paradox of Friendship" that it needed a sequel. It is such a complex story that there is a lot that I had to cut or it would have ended up being even longer than it is now. With that being said, though, I believe the finished product can stand alone. I never pictured the story to be cookie-cutter perfect. Because there is a sequel, I am hesitant to go into depth with any explanation of the characters. I don't want to give too much away now.

 

Spencer isn't as humble as he may seem to be. This story is told primarily through Nix's point of view. While that may not seem to be that big of a deal, it is. That will make more sense later on when the sequel is posted, but I digress. Spencer is only forgiving and accepting of Nix and his friends--not of every single person who has ever done him wrong. He's not strong enough to stand up against his foes (i.e. Porter, Collin) so he submits instead of fights; that's not humility. That is self-preservation, which is what Spencer is best at doing.

 

Justice comes in many forms. For example, everyone that was at Dean's house was arrested. That's a bit of justice. Were Riley and Dexter arrested for bullying Spencer? No, but that doesn't mean they're not paying for what they've done. Sometimes forgiveness is worse than punishment. I won't explain that for now, because that will eventually become clear. The sequel will pick up where this one leaves off. Just because this story ended, that doesn't mean that the sequel will completely disregard its events. In fact, quite the opposite will happen. Why, then, didn't I include every repercussion from everything Spencer has dealt with in this story? Because everything he has been through can't be dealt with in a few hundred or thousand words. Those are things that will stick with him and with everyone involved for a long time to come. They're not something anyone can get over in a short period of time. Everything is not okay--not even close--but Spencer would rather have friends who are devastatingly sorry than shun them.

 

You made the argument that Spencer would have forgiven Artie, Dean, and Collin if the story had been turned around, but it's not as simple as it seems. Spencer didn't forgive Riley and Dexter because I, as the author, wanted him to. There is a certain degree of my writing that is out of my control, so to speak. I create these characters, and overtime they become so real to me. I look at their circumstances and see the decisions they would make, not the decisions I would make if I were in their shoes. It wouldn't matter how much Artie, Dean, or Collin said they were super sorry, Spencer would not have forgiven them as he has done Riley and Dexter. For one, neither Riley nor Dexter expected Spencer to forgive them. Yes, they wanted him to, but they weren't going to force him to forgive them. They even said themselves that if Spencer did not want to be their friends, they would honor that request and treat him nicely. Spencer forgave Riley and Dexter for many reasons. Not only are Riley and Dexter Nix's friends, but Spencer understands them in a way that few people do. He's seen them at their worst--and their worst was at Spencer's expense--but he's also seen enough of them at their best that he understands the driving force behind them. It's not revenge; it's love and loyalty and all of the other things that Spencer craves so desperately. Life isn't perfect, but this is as close to perfect as Spencer can get. He's no fool; he doesn't want to let the opportunity of great friendships pass him by because he's too caught up in the past.

 

As for Artie, Dean, and Collin, they can't be compared to Riley and Dexter. It's unfair to the latter two if they are. Artie, Dean, and Collin have no aspiration to become Spencer's friends. Artie and Dean only pretended to be his friend. If there is one thing Riley and Dexter have not done to Spencer, that would be lie. They've never pretended to like him, but Artie, Dean, and Collin did. Spencer knows the difference. He's not stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.

 

The thing about this story is that I never wanted to censor too much of it. I tried to keep it as close to reality as I could, even exaggerating certain aspects to emphasize something or other. Spencer has been beaten up, tasered, humiliated in multiple ways, and even sexually assaulted, but it wasn't for nothing. Every scene led to another and helped to convey the overall story. I won't apologize for writing it or including it in the final draft, because the violence was necessary. I wrote a forewarning before ever posting the first chapter. I even posted a warning on the worse chapters. If I censored the violence, then I just had a couple of bullies to weak to stand up for their beliefs and a oblivious protagonist for nothing. I know that it was hard to read, but I don't see the point in restricting any story because of difficulties.

 

Parker is a special character; he's very different from Nix's other friends. Many people have criticized Parker for his inaction. He's judged too harshly. In chapter 09, a bit of light is shed on Parker's character. He still feels like an outsider. Why? Because he's only friends with Nix and the others because he's dating Kendall. All of the others--Nix, Kendall, Dexter, Ember, and the twins--were friends first, and then they paired off into romantic relationships. He isn't in any position to take a stand. He feels as much of an outsider as Spencer does.

 

Another thing I want to point out about Nix and his friends, they're tight-knit and loyal--but only to each other. They don't like outsiders. They keep to themselves. They're nice enough to the general student population, but no one goes out of their way to make someone else's day. There's nothing wrong with that, either. That's just how they are. They all have a 'heart', but they aren't required to make every single person they come across happy. They're only required to make their friends happy. This is on purpose, too. It's meant to emphasize what Spencer doesn't have but desperately craves: friends. The fact that Spencer is accepted into their group is exception. Just because Spencer didn't refuse their friendship doesn't mean he didn't grow as a character. He gained so much--friends, a piece of mind, a safety new. He doesn't want to make Nix choose between him and his friends; he knows what it's like to be alienated. He doesn't want that to happen again.

 

I hope that I didn't offend you during this rather lengthy response. I only meant to explain a bit about the characters. There are many things I held back from saying, because I don't want to spoil the sequel, which I hope you will think about reading once it's posted. I appreciate your feedback, and I'm glad you now have an account and can enjoy the expanded opportunities of this site that go along with membership. I can't give you a definite date for the sequel, but you can expect it in the coming months. Happy readings!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have just completed 'The Paradox of Friendship' and I have to state ITMOS, no sugary ending can ever excuse the pain you have put your readers through by this violent and degrading story. A story of a bunch of psychopaths is one thing... by to then try to make those same psychopaths somehow human and the 'good guys' in this sordid tale is just basically unbelievable. I have never had such a strong reaction to any book in my 55 years of life, especially considering it is fiction. The fact that I couldn't put it down(or actually throw it in the trash), probably points to how good a writer you are with the basic story. I realise the title shows the premise for the book and the sick and inhuman things that happen to Spencer are part of the story and plot(the whole point of the book I know). But the pathetic way you turn the seven into schizophrenic psychopaths either shows that you need to work a little more in your characterisations or that perhaps this story gives us a look into your own basic humanity(or lack thereof).

 

ITMOS, though this may simply sound like a rant by a reader against 'an artist', and that maybe you consider getting such a strong reaction some sort of vindication of your 'art', I hope I am wrong because I never again want to read a book that makes me physically ill(several times), from your depiction of the seven friends.

 

It is fiction, it does deal with very disturbing themes, it is compelling... but to get your audience to hate your heroes(the 'good guys' as you say in one of your posts), to make the seven(plus Trudy) sub-human, lacking in any basic compassion just makes this reader(and others I hope) angrier than I ever describe in words... specifically against you, the writer. I hope you might consider rewriting the 'torture scenes' you attribute to the seven at school(and all seven are complicit in that 'torture') to allow what, in my opinion, could be a great great book. I really believe that this book(and your characters) deserve better. From your obvious talent, you deserve better, and I know as a reader... I deserve better.

 

If you can't bring yourself to do this, then I hope you will consider any possible future readers ... and delete this story.

 

Stephen.

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I have just completed 'The Paradox of Friendship' and I have to state ITMOS, no sugary ending can ever excuse the pain you have put your readers through by this violent and degrading story. A story of a bunch of psychopaths is one thing... by to then try to make those same psychopaths somehow human and the 'good guys' in this sordid tale is just basically unbelievable. I have never had such a strong reaction to any book in my 55 years of life, especially considering it is fiction. The fact that I couldn't put it down(or actually throw it in the trash), probably points to how good a writer you are with the basic story. I realise the title shows the premise for the book and the sick and inhuman things that happen to Spencer are part of the story and plot(the whole point of the book I know). But the pathetic way you turn the seven into schizophrenic psychopaths either shows that you need to work a little more in your characterisations or that perhaps this story gives us a look into your own basic humanity(or lack thereof).

 

ITMOS, though this may simply sound like a rant by a reader against 'an artist', and that maybe you consider getting such a strong reaction some sort of vindication of your 'art', I hope I am wrong because I never again want to read a book that makes me physically ill(several times), from your depiction of the seven friends.

 

It is fiction, it does deal with very disturbing themes, it is compelling... but to get your audience to hate your heroes(the 'good guys' as you say in one of your posts), to make the seven(plus Trudy) sub-human, lacking in any basic compassion just makes this reader(and others I hope) angrier than I ever describe in words... specifically against you, the writer. I hope you might consider rewriting the 'torture scenes' you attribute to the seven at school(and all seven are complicit in that 'torture') to allow what, in my opinion, could be a great great book. I really believe that this book(and your characters) deserve better. From your obvious talent, you deserve better, and I know as a reader... I deserve better.

 

If you can't bring yourself to do this, then I hope you will consider any possible future readers ... and delete this story.

 

Stephen.

With all do respect, Stephen, I think you are way out of line in telling her to delete her story. You are most certainly entitled to state your opinion of her work, but you have no right to tell her to remove her work just because you think you 'deserve' better as a reader. Since you seem to have done your research you should have noticed that many people have enjoyed this story, and the people who haven't have at least been tactful in their posts. Last time I checked fiction was supposed to spark emotion in the reader. Just because you didn't like the emotions the story sparked in you doesn't mean she should have to delete it. It isn't your place to tell her what to write or how to write it. She can use her talent any way she very well pleases.

 

I wish that I were half the writer she is, and I'm not just saying that because she has always been my best friend in the entire world. I say that because I have always looked up to her(even though she is much shorter than me). She has been there for some serious shit in my life and I don't know what I would have done without her. You could have stopped reading the story at anytime. After all that is what the little 'x' in the corner of your screen is for. The concept is simple, if you don't like something then don't read it, get to the end and tell the author to delete it because you simply couldn't stop reading something you apparently hated.

 

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you, but I just couldn't help myself.

 

P.s Don't ever insult her humanity ever again. 

 

*HJ*

  • Like 1
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I have just completed 'The Paradox of Friendship' and I have to state ITMOS, no sugary ending can ever excuse the pain you have put your readers through by this violent and degrading story. A story of a bunch of psychopaths is one thing... by to then try to make those same psychopaths somehow human and the 'good guys' in this sordid tale is just basically unbelievable. I have never had such a strong reaction to any book in my 55 years of life, especially considering it is fiction. The fact that I couldn't put it down(or actually throw it in the trash), probably points to how good a writer you are with the basic story. I realise the title shows the premise for the book and the sick and inhuman things that happen to Spencer are part of the story and plot(the whole point of the book I know). But the pathetic way you turn the seven into schizophrenic psychopaths either shows that you need to work a little more in your characterisations or that perhaps this story gives us a look into your own basic humanity(or lack thereof).

 

ITMOS, though this may simply sound like a rant by a reader against 'an artist', and that maybe you consider getting such a strong reaction some sort of vindication of your 'art', I hope I am wrong because I never again want to read a book that makes me physically ill(several times), from your depiction of the seven friends.

 

It is fiction, it does deal with very disturbing themes, it is compelling... but to get your audience to hate your heroes(the 'good guys' as you say in one of your posts), to make the seven(plus Trudy) sub-human, lacking in any basic compassion just makes this reader(and others I hope) angrier than I ever describe in words... specifically against you, the writer. I hope you might consider rewriting the 'torture scenes' you attribute to the seven at school(and all seven are complicit in that 'torture') to allow what, in my opinion, could be a great great book. I really believe that this book(and your characters) deserve better. From your obvious talent, you deserve better, and I know as a reader... I deserve better.

 

If you can't bring yourself to do this, then I hope you will consider any possible future readers ... and delete this story.

 

Stephen.

 

While I appreciate feedback, I have to say that I don't agree with what you've said. It is your right, as the reader, to voice your opinion, but the moment you insult me as an author, that's crossing a line. I've had multiple responses to this story--many that enjoyed it and others that respectfully informed me why they didn't--and I don't think your response falls into either of those categories. I can assure you that my humanity is fine... perfect, even. I'm well-balanced; this story may be my work, but that doesn't mean that it reflects anything of my personality or my humanity or my way of thinking.

 

I personally like my characterizations; there is a level of complexity to each and every character. I'm quite satisfied with all of the characters--the good and the bad ones. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I wrote this story for myself. I didn't write it to please anyone else. I took a range of characters, put them in a storyline, and twisted it to my liking. I told a good story, if I do say so myself. Are there things I could change? Yes. Will I change these things? Probably not. This story is such a large piece that I've had to pick and choose what to include in order to tell the whole story. It's always evolving, but I'm quite satisfied with what is posted. That is all that matters.

 

I'm not going to say anything about the characters beyond what I've already said, because I doubt it'll matter much anyway. I will say that I have no intentions to rewrite the torture scenes. Without those scenes, the characters are just talking and not owning up to their claims. That sounds harsh, but what kind of story would this have been without those scenes? I'm not saying that the violence made this story, because it didn't, but it was an part of it that couldn't be excluded. Yes, those scenes are awful, but how would you see the good without seeing the bad? This story was never meant to be fluff. 

 

As for what everyone 'deserves'... I find that claim disturbing. First off, this story is rated MATURE. That should be an indicator that it isn't for the feint of heart. Furthermore, I chose the tags with care. Among them are hate, rape, and abuse. Each of those is a sign of what is featured in the story. Lastly, if the previous two indicators slipped anyone's noticing, I took the time to write a prologue of sorts, in which I done a quick foreshadowing of what was to be in the story. I even put a warning on the more graphic chapters. I did everything short of summarizing the entire story to warn anyone of what was to come. To be frank, I have no compassion for anyone who ignored every single warning I took the time to give, read the story, and then complained because it was "awful" or "too violent" or what have you. I don't meant to insult you, but that's the cold, hard truth. So do I agree with your statement about who deserves what? Absolutely not.

 

Finally, and this what you should know above all of the other things I have said, I have NO INTENTIONS OF DELETING THIS STORY. So you didn't like it. Well, okay then. Have you ever considered that there are other (potential) readers who (will) like it? Have you ever thought that there may be something in that whole story that might resonate with someone and make some sort of positive impact? (I am in no way egotistic enough to think that this story is that important, but it's a valid claim--it's a valid claim for any story a writer has taken the time to write, edit, and publish.) I'm not deleting this story because one reader doesn't (or more readers don't) like it. Besides, this story angered you, and on some level, it should. Not every story is meant to cause warmth and giddiness and happiness. There are moments in this story when the reader could feel those emotions, but overall, this is a particularly dark story. Anger can be just as strong as love in some cases.

 

Once again, I appreciate feedback, but there is a difference between critiquing a story/writing style and attacking an author. So you finished the story and you hated it, that's your right. It's also your right to respond whenever you feel compelled to, but try to tone down insults in the future. Oh, and happy readings.

 

 

With all do respect, Stephen, I think you are way out of line in telling her to delete her story. You are most certainly entitled to state your opinion of her work, but you have no right to tell her to remove her work just because you think you 'deserve' better as a reader. Since you seem to have done your research you should have noticed that many people have enjoyed this story, and the people who haven't have at least been tactful in their posts. Last time I checked fiction was supposed to spark emotion in the reader. Just because you didn't like the emotions the story sparked in you doesn't mean she should have to delete it. It isn't your place to tell her what to write or how to write it. She can use her talent any way she very well pleases.

 

I wish that I were half the writer she is, and I'm not just saying that because she has always been my best friend in the entire world. I say that because I have always looked up to her(even though she is much shorter than me). She has been there for some serious shit in my life and I don't know what I would have done without her. You could have stopped reading the story at anytime. After all that is what the little 'x' in the corner of your screen is for. The concept is simple, if you don't like something then don't read it, get to the end and tell the author to delete it because you simply couldn't stop reading something you apparently hated.

 

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you, but I just couldn't help myself.

 

P.s Don't ever insult her humanity ever again. 

 

*HJ*

 

Thanks, H.

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