9.11

[Mark Arbour]

   The truth of the matter is, CAP is always going to be a story where the viewpoints of gay/bisexual men are going to come first, and the viewpoints of straight men/women are going to come second. That's just the way the story is, since it is at heart an erotic story about sexual relationships between men.

 

I think I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure "viewpoints" accurately describes it.  But as you noted, the focus remains on our gay/bi brothers.

[PrivateTim]

I don't get the golden rule thing; he treats people far better at 14, than Brad did at 17 or even now.  For example, even if Will weren't out, I don't see him ever doing something like preemptively outing others to cast suspicion off himself, like his father did.  I think Will, like most teenagers (hell most people really), treats those who show him respect and regard with an equal amount in kind.

 

The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". So simply, treat people as you want them to treat you. He didn't do that with Kyle & Eric, he only worried about his own pleasure; he didn't do that with Tony, he fooled around with Mason as retaliation; he didn't behave that way at the dinner table at Escorial and now maybe there are other consequence and reverberations from that behavior. I know some people will say, 'oh but they disrespected him first'; that isn't the Golden Rule, "Get even", it is the idea of being better than that and modeling the behavior you want from others.

 

Will wants others to give him respect, but that is a two way street. Treating Malcolm the way he did, especially as an adult working for him, wasn't respectful.

 

If we accept the fact that it is really difficult to get emancipated as a teenager and that Will managed to do so, then I think we have to accept the fact that he can and will act independently.  The people he idolizes have a sex room and he was alright with that.  That he should copy them is not so far fetched nor outrageous given his sexually liberal upbringing.  That Brad told Jeanine with the expectation that she would confront Will about it was the real bridge to far for Will.  I think JP has the right sense of it all and that Brad's "do as I say not as I do" attitude has gone on long enough.   How many epiphanies does he have to have before he gets it?

 

I expect it will play out just as Mr. Arbour wants it to.  I frankly was more amazed that Robbie gets it more than Brad.  

 

It's still the end of July and a lot seems to be going to happen before 9/11 gets here.  I can't wait to see what surprises our author plans for the next chapter.  

 

It isn't really difficult to get emancipated, it is quite easy because about the only way you can do it is with parental consent. If Brad had chosen to fight Will's emancipation, he would never have gotten it. At best he'd have had his guardianship changed to JP, but even that was a long shot. The first go round a judge would assign a social worker and they'd work for family reconciliation. Since Will was in no physical danger in the house, his being removed would have been highly unlikely.

 

Why shouldn't Jeanine know what her 14 year old son is doing?

[Mark Arbour]

The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". So simply, treat people as you want them to treat you. He didn't do that with Kyle & Eric, he only worried about his own pleasure; he didn't do that with Tony, he fooled around with Mason as retaliation; he didn't behave that way at the dinner table at Escorial and now maybe there are other consequence and reverberations from that behavior. I know some people will say, 'oh but they disrespected him first'; that isn't the Golden Rule, "Get even", it is the idea of being better than that and modeling the behavior you want from others.

 

Will wants others to give him respect, but that is a two way street. Treating Malcolm the way he did, especially as an adult working for him, wasn't respectful.

 

 

 

What we're seeing with Will, though, is not that he's mastered the Golden Rule, but that he is getting better at it.  The deal with Malcolm was really just Will being perceptive of Malcolm's desire to be "taken".  You do make a good point about sexual harassment, and hopefully Will learns to do better with that in the future.  I think that the fact that he is a minor (sexually) would make it tough for Malcolm to press charges without incriminating himself, but Malcolm isn't planning to do that. 

 

It isn't really difficult to get emancipated, it is quite easy because about the only way you can do it is with parental consent. If Brad had chosen to fight Will's emancipation, he would never have gotten it. At best he'd have had his guardianship changed to JP, but even that was a long shot. The first go round a judge would assign a social worker and they'd work for family reconciliation. Since Will was in no physical danger in the house, his being removed would have been highly unlikely.

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that emancipation is easy because to do it you have to have parental consent:  without it, it's virtually impossible?  One of my readers asked me if I ever let feedback in the forums impact they storyline.  The answer is that I rarely do, but this is actually one of the storylines that changed because of feedback (mostly yours) in the forums.  As I had originally written it, Brad fought Will all the way through, but having Brad ultimately realize that such a course of action was futile and to actually support Will made it so much better. 

 

 

Why shouldn't Jeanine know what her 14 year old son is doing?

 

 

 

Norway.

[MJ85]

My initial thought regarding the divorce is that is could very well amount to very little ado at all, if any. Yeah, there are the recent issues that happened, but she doesn't ask for divorce until - what, three weeks even after the party? Unless there's something that's been deliberately kept from us, it seems odd that this would go on to amount to a less-than-amicable divorce.

[centexhairysub]

   The truth of the matter is, CAP is always going to be a story where the viewpoints of gay/bisexual men are going to come first, and the viewpoints of straight men/women are going to come second. That's just the way the story is, since it is at heart an erotic story about sexual relationships between men.

 

I fully understand and accept that.  What I was saying in my previous post is that there is a great deal of bias and even fear directed toward most of the females in the CAP universe.  Just reading the comments in the review and on the forum would be enough for a diagnosis of significant phobias and even some really delusional behaviour by some of the people making the comments.  If we were talking about real people, OMG, they aren't real???; there would be quite a few that are posting that I recommend get therapy pronto...  Since we are talking about a fictional world I will cut them some slack but still...  Some of the comments and remarks have real anger and rage behind them; it just makes me wonder....

[centexhairysub]

Why shouldn't Jeanine know what her 14 year old son is doing?

 

Okay, I actually agreed with your whole post until you got to this one statement.  From a theraputic standpoint what Brad did was major no no, especially since it appeared that Brad did it for no other reason then to validate his own opinion.  Now, I know that is my reading of his reasoning but in the end no one but Mr Arbour really knows what Brad's reasoning was. 

 

Jeanine has just been out of significant inpatient therapy with both electric shock and intense drug therapy; her relationship with Will is rocky at best and Brad instead of trying to find common ground to bring Jeanine and Will together to help both of them heal does this???  Jeanine already is having trouble dealing with Will's emancipation but instead of trying to help her accept it; Brad has done several things to seemingly egg Jeanine into taking a more negative view of it.  It is almost like he agreed to let Will become emancipated but then is trying an end run around that agreement by getting Jeanine worked up to oppose it. 

[samjones1]

I fully understand and accept that. What I was saying in my previous post is that there is a great deal of bias and even fear directed toward most of the females in the CAP universe. Just reading the comments in the review and on the forum would be enough for a diagnosis of significant phobias and even some really delusional behaviour by some of the people making the comments. If we were talking about real people, OMG, they aren't real???; there would be quite a few that are posting that I recommend get therapy pronto... Since we are talking about a fictional world I will cut them some slack but still... Some of the comments and remarks have real anger and rage behind them; it just makes me wonder....

I think you are overstating the case a little bit in proclaimint certain readers and reviewers to be suffering from delusions and rage. Is there some anti-female sentiment around here? Probably. It is, after all, a site about gay people and relationships. It's not hard to imagine that's some subset of readers have had negative interactions with women - straight dating can be fraught for young closeted gay men, after all, and anyone might grow a certain distaste for women when their parents are constantly encouraging them to "find a wife" when all they want is another man. I'm not sure that rises to the level of delusion, even if that type of bias underlies some of the comments on those fora.

 

On the other hand, I feel like there is a real case to be made for Isidore being not all she's cracked up to be. When we meet her, we know that she was a fairly simple girl from France who was seeking to protect her child. I really enjoyed her character in that time period since she showed a caring and loving side. During the Be-Rad years, the only real sense of parenting we for was her spurning Brad. We don't see the intervening years, of course, but what real parenting we see (I.e. not much) is done by JP. Isidore, by contrast, is portrayed as being more focused on work and society. Both JP and Isidore have demanding jobs, yet only one seems to parent? We hear about her Junior League activities, for example, but don't get any sense that she's involved in her kids lives in a meaningful way. We know that she has shown a fairly new love for babies. I've always taken that as her trying to make up for some of the lost parenting years. Most recently, she has revealed herself to be a snob. Not only is she a snob, but her only daughter has emulated her example to become a snob just like her. I would say Isidore brought her up that way, but I don't think it was that deliberate because, again, I'm not seeing Isidore as a real parent.

 

What I am seeing here is a downward trajectory in Isidore's personality where she has gone from being a pragmatic young women to a snob. We've also seen a downward trajectory in her parenting where she has gone from a doting mother to one who openly plays favorites with her daughter while mistreating her adopted son and his child. Has she done great things for JP? Absolutely? Does this change her personality or parenting skills? Absolutely not.

 

Personally, any feeling I have toward Isidore is related to her snobbery and poor parenting rather than her gender. I know fathers who I could attribute all those things I mentioned to about whom I feel similarly.

 

PS: I typed this on my iPhone...please excuse any typos I might have missed.

[methodwriter85]

   Involved parenting by the affluent is a newer deal. Baby Boomers like Brad had more of a "hands off" kind of parenting style.

Edited July 30, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Miles Long]

The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". So simply, treat people as you want them to treat you. He didn't do that with Kyle & Eric, he only worried about his own pleasure; he didn't do that with Tony, he fooled around with Mason as retaliation; he didn't behave that way at the dinner table at Escorial and now maybe there are other consequence and reverberations from that behavior. I know some people will say, 'oh but they disrespected him first'; that isn't the Golden Rule, "Get even", it is the idea of being better than that and modeling the behavior you want from others.

 

I am familiar with the Golden Rule.  I am also familiar with the fact that most young people (male and female) struggle with internalizing this critical life lesson because young people still see themselves as the center of the universe.  Will is by no means perfect; that's what makes him an interesting character to follow in this group of stories.  If he were an even keeled kid who never crossed the line, he would be a great son but not so interesting to read about.

 

You make a great point that Will's actions with Kyle and Eric were less than honorable, but he has since learned from that mistake, as he has with the many others you mentioned.

 

I think you are expecting a lot from Will given his parents.  Brad is arrogant, self centered and lacks a moral compass; he solves his problems by paying people off, infidelity or homicide.  Robbie is arrogant, wishy washy and treats people really badly and somehow gets away with it by saying sorry and grinning.  Jeanine before her breakdown wasn't exactly parent of the year and since seems to be happy to avoid any of her kids that can actually talk.  Seriously, if this were real life Darius, JJ, and Will would probably all be junkie brats that would make Lindsey Lohan seem tame.

 

One of the things I find so compelling about the CAP stories is despite some of the truly questionable characters they are usually likable (sometimes even redeemable) and their exploits are a fun read.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Miles Long

[PrivateTim]

 

 

So what you're saying is that emancipation is easy because to do it you have to have parental consent:  without it, it's virtually impossible?  One of my readers asked me if I ever let feedback in the forums impact they storyline.  The answer is that I rarely do, but this is actually one of the storylines that changed because of feedback (mostly yours) in the forums.  As I had originally written it, Brad fought Will all the way through, but having Brad ultimately realize that such a course of action was futile and to actually support Will made it so much better. 

 

Norway.

 

If you go back and read what I said about emancipation when it was being contemplated I said that emancipation is a very long road and the last resort of the court if the parents oppose it. First the court tries counseling and reconciliation, then the court might appoint a guardian and temporarily sever parental rights, emancipation would be the last remedy. Financially Will was a better candidate than most, but had Brad brought up all that Will had done in his running away the court would have thrown the brakes on the whole proceeding and ordered all kinds of tests and evaluations. Will could have gotten the emancipation in the end, but it would have been a long, ugly process. That is why Brad made the right decision then because the long ugly process wasn't going to help his relationship with Will which is partly why his behavior this last chapter was puzzling. Brad the smart business guy figured out how to start repairing his relationship with Will and then blows up all the progress over trite things like alcohol when he knows Will drinks and smokes pot? I get that there needs to be a vehicle to drive drama, but Brad and Robbie as foils have maybe run their logical course.

 

As to "Norway", Norway was nothing. It would seriously drive you completely nuts if you saw the households that courts let children remain in every day in family court. It is partly the court is loathe to remove children from a parent and partly the system is just not big enough to place every child that should be removed. There would have to have been a half dozen "Norways" before any court would even raise an eyebrow.

 

 

I am familiar with the Golden Rule.  I am also familiar with the fact that most young people (male and female) struggle with internalizing this critical life lesson because young people still see themselves as the center of the universe.  Will is by no means perfect; that's what makes him an interesting character to follow in this group of stories.  If he were an even keeled kid who never crossed the line, he would be a great son but not so interesting to read about.

 

You make a great point that Will's actions with Kyle and Eric were less than honorable, but he has since learned from that mistake, as he has with the many others you mentioned.

 

And the crux of my problem with so many people with Will is that they alternatively promote him as "wise beyond his years, smarter than the adults around him" and then immediately fall back on "he's just a kid" when he messes up.

 

A lot of teens show flashes of maturity followed by incredible moments of immaturity, but most 14 year olds have parents to encourage one and discourage the other. Where is Will getting that moral input from on a daily basis?

[B1ue]

And the crux of my problem with so many people with Will is that they alternatively promote him as "wise beyond his years, smarter than the adults around him" and then immediately fall back on "he's just a kid" when he messes up.

 

A lot of teens show flashes of maturity followed by incredible moments of immaturity, but most 14 year olds have parents to encourage one and discourage the other. Where is Will getting that moral input from on a daily basis?

Personally, I've never seen him as smarter than the adults around him. Or, no more so than any person is occasionally smarter under certain circumstances than their peers. I have seen him as about emotionally and mentally equivalent to an 18 year old, albeit an 18 year old with a large bank account and reasonable ability to discharge those responsibilities. Also, I don't think people magically lose their capability for stupidity once they are able to vote. I think dismissing Will's faults because of this age is a mistake; there are people in their thirties that haven't figured out the golden rule, and we don't assume they'll figure it out when they're 40.

 

I would assume he's getting that feedback from his peers, as with most of us with absentee or distant parents. Look at what he's picked up from Tony, with the help of his psychologist. What's he going to pick up form Kai? Or Darius? It's not the perfect system, but few things are.

[Miles Long]

 

And the crux of my problem with so many people with Will is that they alternatively promote him as "wise beyond his years, smarter than the adults around him" and then immediately fall back on "he's just a kid" when he messes up.

 

A lot of teens show flashes of maturity followed by incredible moments of immaturity, but most 14 year olds have parents to encourage one and discourage the other. Where is Will getting that moral input from on a daily basis?

 

I don't think Will wise beyond his years, and if I did, it would be the wisdom of a 16 or 17 year old, which isn't what I'd consider all that wise.  He's a smart, passionate young man who has a lot of internal conviction to fight for what he believes but seems driven/compelled to learn a lot of life's lessons the hard way.

 

My point of view is that none of his parents provided a consistent or healthy moral platform.  Kids aren't stupid after a certain age the "Do as I say, not as I do" method of child rearing becomes a joke that embitters kids to their parents and many try to emotionally gear themselves to not be like their parents.

 

Will was in a bad situation, albeit not as bad as other kids, but human experience is all relative.  While Will seems to have what I can only assume is an innate sense of ethics, he has had to seek positive moral examples outside his immediate and most of his extended family.  Look at how angry he was at Tony, who he'd latched onto as some kind of upstanding guy.  Sure he was hurt about the "I love you...oh wait no I don't, I'm gonna hook up with Rick" debacle, but I think what really caused the venom was he believed Tony to be someone who he wasn't and disappointment like that is a pretty hard blow at any age.

 

Unfortunately for Will he has to find his moral examples almost in reverse, by rejecting the bad examples around him and try to behave in ways that don't exemplify that behavior.  Obviously he won't always be successful, most aren't.

 

Great points, thanks.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Miles Long

[Westie]

As to "Norway", Norway was nothing. It would seriously drive you completely nuts if you saw the households that courts let children remain in every day in family court. It is partly the court is loathe to remove children from a parent and partly the system is just not big enough to place every child that should be removed. There would have to have been a half dozen "Norways" before any court would even raise an eyebrow.

 

Norway was an assault, followed by a mother instructing a pedophile that he could take pictures of her son and distribute them.  nice definition of nothing.

 

To answer your original question though, which was  "Why shouldn't Jeanine know what her 14 year old son is doing?", the answer is more simple than rights or wrongs of Norway and her mental health.  She has no rights whatsoever to know what her son is doing until a court rules that the emancipation be lifted.  Simply put, Jeanine no longer has any rights regarding Will, and he has the documents to prove it.  Regardless of whether you agree that the emancipation was right, or realistic, the fact that it now stands means Jeanine (and Brad) are excluded.

[MJ85]

Okay, I actually agreed with your whole post until you got to this one statement. From a theraputic standpoint what Brad did was major no no, especially since it appeared that Brad did it for no other reason then to validate his own opinion. Now, I know that is my reading of his reasoning but in the end no one but Mr Arbour really knows what Brad's reasoning was.

 

Jeanine has just been out of significant inpatient therapy with both electric shock and intense drug therapy; her relationship with Will is rocky at best and Brad instead of trying to find common ground to bring Jeanine and Will together to help both of them heal does this??? Jeanine already is having trouble dealing with Will's emancipation but instead of trying to help her accept it; Brad has done several things to seemingly egg Jeanine into taking a more negative view of it. It is almost like he agreed to let Will become emancipated but then is trying an end run around that agreement by getting Jeanine worked up to oppose it.

See, the thing is...this house, that's now at the center of the latest Will Issue, is a house that Brad wasn't even all that thrilled about Will buying to begin with. So it stands to reason that things have been a little off between the two ever since. I'm not sure that this is even about the emancipation for Brad, as opposed to simply being a "spat" that he wants to win because, well, he doesn't like losing. Jeanine only factors in because given how things still are between her and Will, it makes for a move against him. It's almost like a chess move, really.

[Miles Long]

I think dismissing Will's faults because of this age is a mistake; there are people in their thirties that haven't figured out the golden rule, and we don't assume they'll figure it out when they're 40.

 

 

I don't think his faults should be dismissed because of his age, but they need to be taken in the context of his age.  Learning how to navigate life is a skill like any other.  As long as the mistake is not criminally wrong, it is not unreasonable to be more forgiving, tolerant, patient with an adolescent as he/she figures things out.  Think about it, for most kids when they mess up big shame is a pretty powerful motivator to not do something again.

 

You're spot on that that there are people in their thirties (forties through seventies even) who haven't figured it out the Golden Rule, but I find myself completely put off when those people make certain mistakes, thinking they should know better by now.  Shame usually no longer works for these people, so it's not likely they will ever see the light.

 

Good discussion, thanks.

[centexhairysub]

See, the thing is...this house, that's now at the center of the latest Will Issue, is a house that Brad wasn't even all that thrilled about Will buying to begin with. So it stands to reason that things have been a little off between the two ever since. I'm not sure that this is even about the emancipation for Brad, as opposed to simply being a "spat" that he wants to win because, well, he doesn't like losing. Jeanine only factors in because given how things still are between her and Will, it makes for a move against him. It's almost like a chess move, really.

 

Well, this is what I was talking about...  My deal is that Brad seems to be using Jeanine in a backhanded move against Will.  Nothing that Brad is doing seems to be to help Will but to win an argument.  I don't understand the people that act as if Brad is 'Father of the Year" and he is battling this horrible child to save him.  I am not saying by any means that Will is right but to use a women that is just recovering from a significant mental breakdown as a pawn seems cruel beyond belief. 

[MJ85]

I am not saying by any means that Will is right but to use a women that is just recovering from a significant mental breakdown as a pawn seems cruel beyond belief. 

 

Cruel? ...Maybe not the word I'd use. My initial thought was that "thoughtless" might be a better description...but I'm not so sure that that would cover it, either. From Mark's own responses to reviews:

 

 

I think that when Brad is being manipulative, his focus is on the end result, and the emotional consequences don't factor in all that much. He's like the general who orders the charge, knowing that many won't make it past that first trench.

 

"Cruel" would imply that Brad's intentionally aiming to cause harm towards Jeanine as well as towards Will here - and I don't think that that's quite what he's doing. But as Mark has put it, he's definitely got the emotional blockers "on" once again.

[centexhairysub]

Cruel? ...Maybe not the word I'd use. My initial thought was that "thoughtless" might be a better description...but I'm not so sure that that would cover it, either. From Mark's own responses to reviews:

 

 

"Cruel" would imply that Brad's intentionally aiming to cause harm towards Jeanine as well as towards Will here - and I don't think that that's quite what he's doing. But as Mark has put it, he's definitely got the emotional blockers "on" once again.

 

Well, from a purely theraputic standpoint; Brad's behaviour doesn't have to be intentional to make it cruel.  His complete disregard for the negative impact it will have on others does that...  One of the psychiatric tomes I have defines cruel as causing or being conducive to injury, grief, or pain.  What Brad has done clearly fits within those parameters... 

 

p.s. I  have been using my phone to reply to a lot of these lately as I am out of town and my grammar and spelling isn't always the greatest on this damn thing...  Hope it isn't driving anyone else crazy...

[methodwriter85]

   This feels so appropriate:

 

[PrivateTim]

I fully understand and accept that.  What I was saying in my previous post is that there is a great deal of bias and even fear directed toward most of the females in the CAP universe.  Just reading the comments in the review and on the forum would be enough for a diagnosis of significant phobias and even some really delusional behaviour by some of the people making the comments.  If we were talking about real people, OMG, they aren't real???; there would be quite a few that are posting that I recommend get therapy pronto...  Since we are talking about a fictional world I will cut them some slack but still...  Some of the comments and remarks have real anger and rage behind them; it just makes me wonder....

 

No one dislikes Isidore because she is female, but because she is French....  no one like the French....  not even the French! 

 

On the other hand, I feel like there is a real case to be made for Isidore being not all she's cracked up to be. When we meet her, we know that she was a fairly simple girl from France who was seeking to protect her child. I really enjoyed her character in that time period since she showed a caring and loving side. During the Be-Rad years, the only real sense of parenting we for was her spurning Brad. We don't see the intervening years, of course, but what real parenting we see (I.e. not much) is done by JP. Isidore, by contrast, is portrayed as being more focused on work and society. Both JP and Isidore have demanding jobs, yet only one seems to parent? We hear about her Junior League activities, for example, but don't get any sense that she's involved in her kids lives in a meaningful way. We know that she has shown a fairly new love for babies. I've always taken that as her trying to make up for some of the lost parenting years. Most recently, she has revealed herself to be a snob. Not only is she a snob, but her only daughter has emulated her example to become a snob just like her. I would say Isidore brought her up that way, but I don't think it was that deliberate because, again, I'm not seeing Isidore as a real parent.

 

What I am seeing here is a downward trajectory in Isidore's personality where she has gone from being a pragmatic young women to a snob. We've also seen a downward trajectory in her parenting where she has gone from a doting mother to one who openly plays favorites with her daughter while mistreating her adopted son and his child. Has she done great things for JP? Absolutely? Does this change her personality or parenting skills? Absolutely not.

 

Freaking A......  we have ZERO idea of what Isidore was like as a parent because of the few snippets we've seen of her. This story so far covers 40 years or so and we've only seen very small scenes with Isidore in the last 17 years. We know that she has been a gracious host welcoming all kinds of people, rich and not rich into the house over those years.

 

In order to plot a trajectory you'd have to have a lot, and I mean a lot, more data points.

 

 

Norway was an assault, followed by a mother instructing a pedophile that he could take pictures of her son and distribute them.  nice definition of nothing.

 

To answer your original question though, which was  "Why shouldn't Jeanine know what her 14 year old son is doing?", the answer is more simple than rights or wrongs of Norway and her mental health.  She has no rights whatsoever to know what her son is doing until a court rules that the emancipation be lifted.  Simply put, Jeanine no longer has any rights regarding Will, and he has the documents to prove it.  Regardless of whether you agree that the emancipation was right, or realistic, the fact that it now stands means Jeanine (and Brad) are excluded.

 

Norway was an assault only by a technical definition, show me the prosecutor who is going to file because Will had "marks" on his arm where his mother gripped his wrists. Jeanine has never been described as an especially large woman, but Will has been described as a big guy for his age (13 in Norway) so he is certainly larger and stronger than Jeanine. Will played that "oh she assaulted me" drama for all it was worth, but it only made him a whiny little bitch who was playing passive aggressive games. Even a drunk/stoned lawyer would have had no problem getting rid of that issue given the physical differences between the two.

 

As to Michael and the pictures, the lawyer wouldn't have to sober up for that one either. Jeanine, the concerned parent, had heard awful stories about her 13 year old son having sex with multiple partners and she just couldn't believe it! She needed proof to confront him and his father who was turning a blind eye to his son's behavior.

 

And I am not talking about Jeanine's legal right to know what Will is up to, but the moral one. She is still his mother and always will be. It would be interesting to research the legality of Will's emancipation while she was incapacitated. I don't remember if she and Brad were married, but there was no one there to represent her legal rights as a parent. And we are really rehashing old ground, but a huge part of the problems between Will and his mother were caused by Brad and him allowing Will to treat his mother like hired help and like her opinion didn't matter.

 

A real court battle amongst these people would have made a lot of lawyers rich.

[samjones1]

 

Freaking A......  we have ZERO idea of what Isidore was like as a parent because of the few snippets we've seen of her. This story so far covers 40 years or so and we've only seen very small scenes with Isidore in the last 17 years. We know that she has been a gracious host welcoming all kinds of people, rich and not rich into the house over those years.

 

In order to plot a trajectory you'd have to have a lot, and I mean a lot, more data points.

 

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct, PrivateTim.  Clearly, there is much more to the story than what we see.  That's why I tried to point out what we see/know and don't see/don't know rather than making any grand claims about who she actually is.  What I was attempting to point out is that what we have seen doesn't present a very flattering light for Isidore. It's not beyond reason that a reasonable person would look at her character development over the course of the stories and find her wanting.  If Mark definitely wanted to paint a more positive picture of Isidore and her behavior, he could and would have done so more deliberately.  I'm only suggesting that what Centex attributes the fear of women, delusions, or rage could be a legitimate, albeit incomplete, reading of the story...nothing more.

 

With respect to the people who have been in the house, it's not clear that she is responsible for inviting people from all segments of society.  We've heard that JP invites students to the house for holidays, so at least some subset of house visitors are attributable to JP.  We've also heard that the party lists for those parties that Isidore definitely does put together are pretty exclusive. She clearly is a good hostess, but many snobs are also good at hosting. 

 

I'm hoping that the conversation with JP will shed a little more light on where Isidore is.

 

[Miles Long]

 

As to Michael and the pictures, the lawyer wouldn't have to sober up for that one either. Jeanine, the concerned parent, had heard awful stories about her 13 year old son having sex with multiple partners and she just couldn't believe it! She needed proof to confront him and his father who was turning a blind eye to his son's behavior.

 

And I am not talking about Jeanine's legal right to know what Will is up to, but the moral one. She is still his mother and always will be. It would be interesting to research the legality of Will's emancipation while she was incapacitated. I don't remember if she and Brad were married, but there was no one there to represent her legal rights as a parent. And we are really rehashing old ground, but a huge part of the problems between Will and his mother were caused by Brad and him allowing Will to treat his mother like hired help and like her opinion didn't matter.

 

Jeanine playing the concerned parent would be believable until the court found out she sent the photos to the skating organization.  Even family court would scoff at the idea she was so concerned about her promiscuous son that she had pictures taken of him and was so worried that she shared them with the skating officials to have the skater who was with promiscuous son, one who happens to be a competitor of yet another son, kicked out of the sport.   I am also pretty confident that once the court found out about the pictures of JJ, she and Michael would be in a big heap of trouble for child pornography.  Even if she had nothing to do with Michael photographing JJ (which I find almost impossible to believe) enough doubt can be cast on her by claiming if she let a pedophile photograph one son, why wouldn't she let him photograph the other.

 

I struggle with blaming Brad entirely for the bad blood between Will and Jeanine.  She owns a lot of the damage with her attitude towards Will.  It seems to me she took her frustration with Brad out on Will and that's a shifty way to parent and it's no surprise that Will doesn't trust or respect her.  She hasn't shown any respect for Will or even made an effort to meet him half way.  Jeanine can start asserting her maternal rights when she steps up and starts acting like a real mother, until then she's no better than Bitty in my opinion (and we all know how much Brad and Jeanine respected Bitty's maternal rights when it came to Darius and JJ).

 

Finally, you absolutely right... no one likes the French  .

[centexhairysub]

No, I am going to stand by my statement...  Words matter and going over the reveiw and forum for the last couple of months the syntax and words used would set any good therapist on edge.  I understand that we don't see as much of the supporting players of which Isidore is one, but some of what is being written would set of warning bells in any other setting...

 

p.s. I love the French...

Edited July 31, 2013 by centexhairysub

[Miles Long]

 

p.s. I love the French...

 

Okay, I have admit it...so do I   .

 

Even though I am not passionate about Isidore one way or the other, I do see your point.  IMO many of CAP's female characters tend to be more archetypes than anything else.  I suspect this has more to do with the POVs being men who are focused on their relationships with other men than any intentional slight against women.  There are a few examples where we get to see more, like Tonto in The Box, but overall the CAP women aren't flushed out to the extent of their male counterparts.  So I see the anti Isidore sentiment as more as it's easy to be extreme one way or another with archetypes, because they lack any of the details that make them more empathetic characters and not a symptom of latent (or blatant) misogyny amount the readers.  If I'm wrong, then I'm in the wrong forum for sure.

 

I love the CAP universe but as it's a story predominantly about gay men (with some bi guys thrown in for flavor) it's not where to go to get one's Girl Power on .

Edited July 31, 2013 by Miles Long

[methodwriter85]

 

IMHO JJ's self reliance, whether others see it as a good thing or not, shows growth and strength which I think is 10 times more beneficial to him then clinging on to someone else.

   

     I do think it's funny though that JP doesn't quite get JJ, and it all kind of underscores that JJ is the family odd duck. He's just someone who doesn't really fit into the family the way that Darius and Will do. I really do like how the three brothers are so vastly different to each other.

 

     I' m kind of the "family odd duck"/loner that JJ is, so I really understand him in that regard. As much as I love my family, I find family obligations and drama to be pretty tedious at times, so I don't really get myself too wrapped into that.