9.11

[methodwriter85]

I don't give a crap how much figure skating gets rewritten, CAP is much more important than who placed 4th in the U.S. Men's Nationals in 2002. Quick!, Who was it? If you said Michael Savoie or if you have a clue who Ryan Jahnke or Scott Smith are, you really need a life

 

    Right. See, the thing is, Daisy and I have been writing out and planning a career timeline for JJ for 3 or 4 years now- we have a rough draft of where JJ goes up to the 2005-2006 season. Now that we've reached the point where JJ is a senior skater, we're going to see him start "displacing", so to speak, actual senior figure skaters. It's inevitable if we're having him be someone that people like Johnny Weir and Evan Lysacek would even bother with.

 

    It's been cool to bring in the real events though- we can't find actual dates for the regionals and sectionals, but Skate America and Skate Canada were real. Johnny Weir actually placed 7th at Skate Canada, interestingly enough. Which was probably an decent result, considering that Johnny Weir was probably only doing senior skating events for two seasons.

 

    I liked how JJ got really unrealistic and obsessed with the idea that he could and should win the two Grand Prixes and make it to the final Grand Prix. My guess is that the general impression of JJ isn't that he's washed up and that it's cool that he even got to the Grand Prix during his first senior season, but I'm betting he overheard one of his competitors saying nasty things about him and JJ's decided that EVERYONE thinks it about him. *cough* Johnny Weir *cough*

Edited February 13, 2014 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

    Right. See, the thing is, Daisy and I have been writing out and planning a career timeline for JJ for 3 or 4 years now- we have a rough draft of where JJ goes......

 

    I liked how JJ got really unrealistic and obsessed with.....

 

Hun, the first thing you learn in scriptwriting is never let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

 

And a guy named Jeremy obsessed with something? Who'd a-thunk it

[Mark Arbour]

Hun, the first thing you learn in scriptwriting is never let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

 

 

 

That's what I told them after they had to redo the schedule for the 7th time. 

[methodwriter85]

 

Hun, the first thing you learn in scriptwriting is never let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

 

Right. There's also that. We had JJ scheduled to go to the 2000 Junior Grand Prix Final in Scotland on December 14th-17th (which he qualified for because we had him win a bronze at the Grand Prix in St. Gervais), but Mark had us change it because he wanted JJ around, and the result of JJ doing badly in school with Brad banning him from going off to Scotland led us to a really fantastic reveal.

 

 

That's what I told them after they had to redo the schedule for the 7th time. 

 

We've learned to flexible, in any event. We had JJ's 2000-2001 season so minutely planned, too. We learned from that when we refined the '01 - '02 season.

 

 

Ewww, JJ & Gathan, what a revoltin' thought that is!

 

I don't see JJ falling for a muscle head, more a Shane Jackson, Alistair, John kind of guy. Someone lithe like himself.

 

For older guys, I see JJ with an Anderson Cooper type- an urbane, witty guy from a rich family with a killer fashion sense. For young guys, I see JJ with a gay version of Nicholas Hoult.

 

Or maybe a Ronan Farrow type.He seems like a rather fey and a massive bitch, but with a pedigree and crazy family like his, it'd be hard not to be. He also graduated from law school at 21 and was a Rhodes scholar- impressive as hell.

 

It's alleged that Woody Allen is not his biological father, but Frank Sinatra. Either way it's a pretty cool pedigree,. and this guy has one hell of a list of accomplishments for a 26-year old. I could see JJ attracted to that type even though he's not a genius himself.

 

But yes, in any event, I can't see JJ with muscle boys.

Edited February 13, 2014 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

I don't give a crap how much figure skating gets rewritten, CAP is much more important than who placed 4th in the U.S. Men's Nationals in 2002. Quick!, Who was it? If you said Michael Savoie or if you have a clue who Ryan Jahnke or Scott Smith are, you really need a life

It was bound to happen: I agree with Tim.

 

That just shows I need to get a drink.

[John Prz]

Chapter 74: Mindblowing Mr.Arbour! I don't need to say nothing more. 

[methodwriter85]

It was bound to happen: I agree with Tim.

 

 

   I agree as well. There are certain cardinal facts that can't be changed- Plushenko wins the '06 Gold, Evan wins the '10 Gold, and Johnny Weir is national champion from 2004 to 2006. But for this storyline to be worthwhile, and for it be believable that people like Evan or Johnny are even deigning to interact with JJ, he'll have to start displacing real medal winners. Otherwise, he can't ever medal at an event...which...well, we couldn't really call him elite, could we?

 

    I've thought about whether or not we should write out Jeremy Abbott from skating history and have JJ "take his place", so to speak. He can be the skater that's really good at U.S. championships but then chokes at Worlds or the Olympics.

 

    Then again, from what I understand, Jeremy Abbott is a total headcase and he apparently lost it at the 2010 Worlds because Johnny Weir stole his boyfriend. That might be a fun thing for JJ to comment on.

 

    When I watched the Team Figure Skating, I was wondering how JJ would react if he were on that team and had watched Jeremy Abbott's choke and 7th place finish. I'm guessing he would have smiled pleasantly at the camera, patted Jeremy Abbott on the arm, gone to his hotel room, and spent a good 30 minutes screaming his lungs out.

Edited February 14, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Henson]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud....  This kills me every time I see it. 

 

IT'S NOT YOUR STORY.

 

My name is Josh, I like to think I'm smart, and I majored in political science (before I got smart and became an engineer), but I don't watch The West Wing as if Josh is me, and I know what's a'comin. I understand it's a bit different here - but not really. It's ridiculous. Let Mark write. He does a really good job of it. 

 

It's as though the guy who put the frame on the Picasso decided he's "part of the team."

 

There, i feel better now

 

From here on out I request - no, keeping in character with what's apparently acceptable around here, DEMAND - that any and all figure skaters in future stories be fictional.   All of it. Even the schedule. Figure skating is not history on par with the Oklahoma City bombing. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Henson

[Westie]

I agree as well. There are certain cardinal facts that can't be changed- Plushenko wins the '06 Gold, Evan wins the '10 Gold, and Johnny Weir is national champion from 2004 to 2006.

Why? There are certain things Mark can't change, because he builds CAP within the "real world framework". So, He isn't going to have George Bush change his mind on the war on terror, for example, because that would completely change the dynamic of the post 9/11 world.

 

HOWEVER, what would it matter, REALLY, if Johnny Weir just.... doesn't win. I mean, its some figure skating contest, that matters not one jot the overall direction of the world in the last 20 years.

 

Example from Mark's other books - Bridgemont. Mark has George Granger play a critical role in the Battle of Cape St Vincent. Its completely fictional, and doesn't change the outcome of the historical fact. But it deviated pretty markedly from historical accuracy all the same, but does so without changing the world.

 

Example in CAP - Stef invests in google. Now in the real world, that didnt happen, and Stef's investment isn't going to change the eventual outcome, but his name is now in there as one of the original google "winners".

 

The way I see it, Mark can easily have JJ kick Johnny Weir's ass for the fun and hell of it, and it wont make any difference to the overall world.

 

Not to sound too "Doctor Who" about it, but there are the big things that become fixed points in time. But little things can be changed without changing the world. I'm sorry, but who won a certain figure skating contest in what year? It's SUCH A LITTLE THING.

[B1ue]

Alright you two. Back to bed. You both clearly need more sleep.

 

I personally wouldn't even notice if the figure skaters were fabricated entirely, or swapped about all over the place, but I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to see details being got right. I trust Mark to not let those details get in the way of the story he wants to tell.

 

We all read the books for different reasons. I can't turn off my view of how the characters are being developed, which is why I tend to focus on those details. Jeremy has stated he was originally attracted to the chronicles by the level of historical detail Mark assimilates into the stories. I'm sure others pick up and respond to even more different aspects. There's no incorrect way to engage a text.

[Henson]

I agree with that.  There are, however, inappropriate ways to constrain the text before it even enters the author's imagination.  I am here to read MARK'S stories.

[mmike1969]

I agree with that. There are, however, inappropriate ways to constrain the text before it even enters the author's imagination. I am here to read MARK'S stories.

Unless it's more of that "I think I had sex with my dad" story that I won't be reading

[Henson]

Maybe I'm just being cranky.  It wouldn't be the first time, Lord knows.

 

But this isn't just the figure skating thing.  It's not even just one guy.  It's the tenor of this forum in general.  I'm tired of people telling the author what he can and cannot write.  It's his story.  He does a remarkable job of ignoring all but the most constructive criticism (for example, he doesn't care one whit if you like his characters, but he will certainly re-evaluate if he's told they're veering out of character).  But the fundamental thing we as readers need to remember is...

 

IT'S HIS STORY.

 

We're along for the ride, and I enjoy the hell out of that ride.

 

(It's also moderately irritating to watch someone hitch his wagon to a storyteller of Mark's caliber and insinuate, over and over, that the story wouldn't have happened without that person's help.  As if Mark is incapable of figuring shit out.)

Edited February 14, 2014 by Henson

[Kitt]

While Mark is certainly quite capable of handling things all by himself, he has CHOSEN to include several people in the creative and editorial process. In the end what Mark wants Mark gets, we get an enjoyable story, and Mark gets a little help along the way. I call that a win-win and if some people get a feeling of accomplishment from having contributed I see nothing wrong with that! In fact, I enjoy the glimpses we get into the research and discussion that goes on. If someone does NOT enjoy it, I suggest they skip over those entries.

[Mark Arbour]

Alright, settle down!  Adam and I are the only ones allowed to beat up on Jeremy. 

 

Jeremy can be a little forceful in his views and assertions, but that's a pretty good thing, since I'm a pretty assertive guy too.  Sometimes he pushes a little too hard, but I either ignore him or kick back.  Having said that, he contributes a lot to the stories during the editing process, and can usually alert me to major forum firestorms on the horizon.  He also does a lot of research for me.  He is much appreciated, butslightly annoying at times.

[sat8997]

It's all a moot point anyway once the bus comes into play.

[methodwriter85]

 

I personally wouldn't even notice if the figure skaters were fabricated entirely, or swapped about all over the place, but I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to see details being got right. I trust Mark to not let those details get in the way of the story he wants to tell.

 

We all read the books for different reasons. I can't turn off my view of how the characters are being developed, which is why I tend to focus on those details. Jeremy has stated he was originally attracted to the chronicles by the level of historical detail Mark assimilates into the stories. I'm sure others pick up and respond to even more different aspects. There's no incorrect way to engage a text.

 

See, in my case, I thought I was finding a happy medium- making sure that three important things about the shape of figure skating for the 2000  to 2010 era stay there, but also allowing for some flexibility so that Mark can have the freedom to do what he wants with the JJ career. Plushenko is a living legend, and nobody but him was expected to win at Torino. The Johnny Weir lore is really shaped by the fact that he bombed at the '03 Nationals, but then won '04, '05, and '06. Because Johnny Weir was so good but seemed to have his middle finger permanently stuck in the air, the USFSA really started pushing the family-friendly Evan Lysacek, further exacerbating the rivalry. And the Johnny Weir/Evan Lysacek rivalry of the 2000's gets topped at the end with Evan ultimately winning everything at the end. Those three things really seemed like they shaped the vibe of men's figure skating in the 2000's, and the idea is to weave JJ into the narrative, without completely changing it. It's what Mark has tried to have done by having myself and Daisy research the vibe of that era in figure skating. That's all I'm saying.

 

And yes, Blue, I came into being part of Mark's team because when he posted chapter 2 or chapter 3 of CAP, he was having JP and Peter Gordon spirit themselves down to the Delaware beaches to hide out for a week.  The problem? It was late March, 1962. A huge NorEaster, called the Ash Wednesday Storm, had destroyed the whole area in early March. Mark incorporated the whole thing into the story, and I thought it really made the chapter even stronger.

 

 

Jeremy can be a little forceful in his views and assertions, but that's a pretty good thing, since I'm a pretty assertive guy too.  Sometimes he pushes a little too hard, but I either ignore him or kick back

 

Exactly. Really, Henson, if I ever get too forceful with Mark and he isn't convinced by me, I get shut down pretty quick. It's been that way for 5 years, and it works.

[Westie]

To be fair, I wasn't beating up on Jeremy. I was just challenging the assertion that certain (small) events HAVE to happen as they did in the real world.

 

And actually, to stick up for him a little, you guys don't see what goes on in the background for this story. I hope I wont get into trouble with Mark for saying, but Jeremy provides (usually within an hour or so of a draft) incredibly detailed feedback on every chapter of the series. If he sometimes seems really invested in the story, that's just because it's in his nature to do so. But when it comes down to it, we have an author who is so stubborn it would be easier to drag escorial to New York with a horse cart than to move him from something if he has set his sight on it.

 

What you see here IS Mark's fiction, but you can't really rib Jeremy too hard when he gets invested in areas of the story that he helped Mark shape.

 

What you do have to remember is that when Jeremy gives his opinion, and Mark says "thanks, but I'm going the other way" - that's the end of the matter. It rarely spills out into the forum here.

 

I think Jeremy does a really great job of being so engaged here, wile having some foreknowledge that he never gives away.

[Kitt]

Well said Westie!  I don't think anyone not involved in the editorial/beta process has any idea just how hard it is to restrict oneself to discussing the material that has been published and not let little bits of what is to come sneak into the conversation.  All of the people on Mark's team does an admirable job of that!

[methodwriter85]

 

What you do have to remember is that when Jeremy gives his opinion, and Mark says "thanks, but I'm going the other way" - that's the end of the matter. It rarely spills out into the forum here.

 

   Very true. Henson, I really need to disabuse you of your notion that I somehow "strong-arm" Mark into changing the story against his wishes. That couldn't be further from the truth. Mark is not a delicate flower who bends to the will of others. Mark and I will debate, but at the end of the day, it's his story, and he's going to go where he wants with it.

 

    For example, I absolutely and totally hit the roof when I found out about the JJ molestation storyline. I begged and pleaded with Mark to change the story so that Wade and Matt "rescue" JJ from a molestation attempt. Mark absolutely and unequivocally told me, "No, this is the way I'm going." And the storyline turned out great, and it's created long-lasting implications and drama for the JJ character. Without the molestation storyline, we wouldn't have gotten that wonderful little scene between Will and JJ at the hospital after his coach died, and in this story, the scene between John and JJ where we could see just how messed up he is.

 

    The only time Mark ever decides to change a story is when he himself realizes that the direction isn't working, or he agrees with one of us that something just doesn't make sense for the character, or a plot is really unrealistic.

[Mark Arbour]

  Mark is not a delicate flower...

 

  

 

   Is that a nice way of calling me an asshole?

[methodwriter85]

  I think everyone is an asshole to some extent. Really, who survives being a meek little "yes or no ma'am" kind of person in 21st century America? And in your case, weren't you like a venture capitalist before you became a professor? You're actually surprisingly mellow like 90 percent of the time, considering.

 

   To get things back to CAP, how great was that break-up scene between Matt and Wade? I thought it was realistic, I thought it was a long time in coming, and I thought it emphasized how much Wade wants to be an adult and grown up while Matt really wants to go back to being that happy college couple. I also thought that it's a good thing Facebook doesn't hit Stanford until March 2004, because god, how nasty would it have gotten? (Why people post about break-ups on Facebook, I'll never know.)

[Raistlinsama]

Two new chapters in 3 days!

 

Did Matt finally get his wake up call? It seems to me that he was thinking that this was just another bump in his relationship with Wade, so having Wade saying that he does not love him anymore may have been the shock he need to put his head together. At least I hoe so, because I think he is in a bad moment in his life. 

I don't really believe that Wade does not love Matt anymore, but that does not mean that he wants to be in a romantic relationship with him anymore: love is necessary, but not sufficient and from Wade point of view I think it feels like Matt does not have the will to commit to an adult relation. It may be that they are having opposite reactions to 9/11: Wade is moving forward trying to leave it back, Matt is trying to go back to the comfortable past. I once thought that Wade and MAtt were a for life duple, now I'm not so sure anymore. If there is a future beyond friendship in this  (and it's avery big if at the moment) Matt has a lot of work to do, and it will be years before Wade is ready to trust him again.

Despite having an amazing public persona I think wade is really an introvert: he may present a pleasant façade to the world but he really lets in very few and select people, and Matt used to be first and foremost among these few. If I am reading things right Wade is hurting badly and is doing the logical thing tho stop it: put an end to his relationship with Matt (anyone is reminded of a young JP?). It's bad that I want Matt to realize this and feel really terrible about it (I like Matt but I love Wade, so…)?

 

Speaking of similarities, didn't Robbie fuck up badly with Brad during college? The difference is that while Brad was willing to fight to get Robbie back with him here it's Matt that has a lot of work to do if he wants a chance to get back with Wade.

[John Prz]

Gathan FINALLY! It was time to get some sense in that head of yours!

 

Why Zach moving closer make me think we're going to see him much more often?

 

Anyway another amazing chapter

Edited February 17, 2014 by John Prz

[Kitt]

Interesting to see Gathan not just parrot what Wally has been saying about Zach for a change.  Perhaps he realizes it is time to look at Zach and see what is there and not what he thinks should be there.

 

I would love to have been a bug on the wall when Frank and Wally got into it about Zach.

 

And no blow up from Will about the gal and needing a condom?  The boy is growing up. Saying there will be no blame in a situation like that and actually dealing with it are two very different things.

 

Now, correct me if I am mistaken, but Wally is actually Zachs father isn't he?  Will be interesting if he decided that Zach has to return to Ohio. I doubt there would be any legal standing for Frank to assume custody, and unless there is a whole lot more happening than Mark has shown us so far I don't see another emancipation on the horizon.