Timothy M. Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Maybe he will want Mary Ellen to be part of his life now since she would be "suitable", There is no way Mary Ellen could be 'suitable' for an English peer, no matter her wealth. Can you imagine the British gossip press digging up her past (particularly the sexual escapades). - they would fry her while they laughed their heads off at all the juicy headlines. Alex is a cad, the 'excuse' of not having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with JJ and have random sex with other people at the same time. And he even admitted JJ probably thought they were exclusive. Oh well, I had hoped it lasted longer than this, but even if Alex does grovel his way back into JJ's bed, the damage is probably done. Edit: Mary Ellen certainly fits the slut role in the Madonna complex theory Edited November 12, 2014 by Timothy M. 2
Bucket1 Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 There is no way Mary Ellen could be 'suitable' for an English peer, no matter her wealth. Can you imagine the British gossip press digging up her past (particularly the sexual escapades). - they would fry her while laughed their heads off at all the juicy headlines. Alex is a cad, the 'excuse' of not having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with JJ and have random sex with other people at the same time. And he even admitted JJ probably thought they were exclusive. Oh well, I had hoped it lasted longer than this, but even if Alex does grovel his way back into JJ's bed, the damage is probably done. Once a cad, always a cad? He is repeating bad behaviour. His communication skills were in question when he started fucking Matt and then Wade got confused about what was agreed or not. Now he seems to be ok in leading JJ on with the "implied" exclusive relationship but have a dalliance with Mary-Ellen. He does seem to be focussed on what's good for Alex and not much else. He knew this would be a problem and did it anyway. Definitely a cad. I agree with Headstall - I was beginning to see another side to Alex - he professed to have a connection with JJ that he had never had before. Seems as if he may have been blowing smoke up all our asses! 2
PrivateTim Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 And that is why the family is concerned about JJ attaching himself too much to Alex. But the issues are JJ's, not Alex's. Brad should be focusing on JJ and making sure JJ is in therapy still and not care who he is or is not dating. Alex is a cad, the 'excuse' of not having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with JJ and have random sex with other people at the same time. You mean like Will does? 1
Timothy M. Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Remember gentlemen, Elizabeth probably thought she was being restrained in institutionalizing and drugging her mother to gain control of the trusts rather than simply having her eliminated. And then there is the fact that guys like Hammer do not take hints well unless they leave a reverse print of the words "Louisville Slugger" on their forehead. The really interesting part is whether Wade will tell Hammer that his misfortune is due to hs lack of respect for Wade's warnings and for Matt's no to his sexual advances. Or whether he (and Matt) will stay silent on this. 1
mmike1969 Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Based on personal experience: Revenge is best kept silent. You brag and it WILL be catch up with ya. 3
Bucket1 Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Based on personal experience: Revenge is best kept silent. You brag and it WILL be catch up with ya. Inner smugness is OK isn't? 1
B1ue Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 You mean like Will does? Will has defined his relationship to specifically include tomcatting around. I'm not sure how well that would work with real people, but in the story it seems to be stumbling along. 4
PrivateTim Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Will has defined his relationship to specifically include tomcatting around. I'm not sure how well that would work with real people, but in the story it seems to be stumbling along. To use Timothy's word of "cad", I word paraphrase him as "the 'excuse' of having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with Zach (deep unabiding love or so we are told) and have random sex with other people at the same time." The larger point is that people here are tending to see the sliver in Alex's eye, while ignoring the Sequoia in Will's eye. 1
Headstall Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 To use Timothy's word of "cad", I word paraphrase him as "the 'excuse' of having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with Zach (deep unabiding love or so we are told) and have random sex with other people at the same time." Personally, I agree with this part... 1
Popular Post Timothy M. Posted November 13, 2014 Popular Post Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) From ch 9, Zach POV “But after that, I realized that regardless of who I get off with, I want to be with you. And that’s when I decided to fly out here for my birthday.” He gave me a really loving kiss. “I could be with just you. You’re more than enough to make me happy.” I couldn’t stop my grin, but then I erased it and spoke sincerely. “I’m sorry. It’s good the way things are. It’s just that I get really jealous sometimes. It’s my problem, not yours.” “How do I make it better?” “I don’t know,” I admitted. “If you go out and don’t tell me, I’ll be curious, but if you tell me, I’m jealous. I’m fucked either way, but I think I’d rather know.” “I’ve only fucked around with three guys since last Christmas,” he said. I stared at him, blinking in surprise. I thought he was a major slut, and I’d figured he’d have scored some serious dick by now. “Three?” “Three,” he confirmed. “Want to know who they are?” “Fine,” I agreed. “Kai, the guy in New York, and a bartender in Chicago,” he said. I could totally see why he’d get with Kai. He was a pretty cool dude, but he wasn’t a threat to us. And I got the football player in New York. He wasn’t a threat either. “A bartender?” “His name is Devon. He’s blond, he’s handsome, and he’s fun,” Will explained. Only I could tell that this guy wasn’t a threat to us either. He put his hand on my bicep, and stroked my dragon. “They were fun, but I love you.” And then I got it. Those other guys didn’t matter, in the greater scheme of things. No matter who he hopped in bed with, I had his heart. And he had mine. Mark's words but my bold markings. And remember the advice of Zach's previous agent, who said if Zach couldn't have a pretend girlfriend, Will should have a pretend boyfriend. Sleeping with other guys is not as effective, but might help. Edited November 13, 2014 by Timothy M. 6
Bucket1 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Mark's words but my bold markings. And remember the advice of Zach's previous agent, who said if Zach couldn't have a pretend girlfriend, Will should have a pretend boyfriend. Sleeping with other guys is not as effective, but might help. I'm really glad Mark wrote that scene - I was with Zach, even with the advantage of reading all the action. I just assumed that Will would have been much more of a slut but true love can temper even the horniest of CAP characters. And I do agree with Tim - publicly visible action on Will's part was part of the great camouflage. Something Zach forgot when dealing with Parnell. Zach could have laughed it off and said something about Will not having the energy to fuck with Zach because his cousin was too busy working his way through the rest of the male population in America. To use Timothy's word of "cad", I word paraphrase him as "the 'excuse' of having defined their relationship is bullshit. You don't date someone the way he has with Zach (deep unabiding love or so we are told) and have random sex with other people at the same time." The larger point is that people here are tending to see the sliver in Alex's eye, while ignoring the Sequoia in Will's eye. I agree with B1ue that this would not work as well in real life but this is CAP. There is one big difference between the two situations - Will is not deceiving Zach. Alex cheated on JJ. That's the sequoia! And finally a thank you to Mark - I was just getting to like Alex (just a little bit) and then he does this sort of thing. Still King of the Rollercoaster 5
PrivateTim Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 I agree with B1ue that this would not work as well in real life but this is CAP. There is one big difference between the two situations - Will is not deceiving Zach. Alex cheated on JJ. That's the sequoia! And finally a thank you to Mark - I was just getting to like Alex (just a little bit) and then he does this sort of thing. Still King of the Rollercoaster My points were bigger than that. The overarching one is that ANY behavior of Will's is excused and explained away while any behavior of Alex's is criticized and used as evidence of his evil intent. There is no spoken relationship between Alex and JJ, just a lot of assumptions and you know why you never ass-u-me. The second point and I think maybe what headstall was alluding to, is that when you are in love with someone, you change your behavior. You don't just fulfill every lust you have, when you have it, not even if your partner says it is okay because it is still wrong and always a danger to your relationship. I do like that Timothy quoted story since textual evidence to support ideas is always a great way to change and persuade. 3
Bucket1 Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 My points were bigger than that. The overarching one is that ANY behavior of Will's is excused and explained away while any behavior of Alex's is criticized and used as evidence of his evil intent. We, the readers, do seem to be either Will-haters or Will-lovers. As I have said before Will is a fantastic literary device - the good v evil, black and white view of the world has been a very useful counterpoint to older members of the family. Would I want him in my life? Only if it was in the sling room and he had a gag in his mouth. He is a right royal pain in the ass but thats OK. I am happy to declare my hand - Alex has not been good for our friends in CAP (Well except that the drama did bang Matt and Wade's heads together and they finally worked each other out - so not all bad). In fairness to his character, Mark is only now giving us his point of view. I liked the fact that JJ was his first real connection, I was beginning to put Alex's previous bad behaviour in some sort of context but then Mark is never one for a smooth ride. You are absolutely right about the no spoken rules between Alex and JJ however Alex confessed that he knew JJ's expectations. The right thing to do would have been to talk about it first (as Will has done) and not cheat. Alex deliberately did something that he knew would hurt his lover. Thoughtless maybe be a better description than evil. Actually stupid might be the best term since he has a good idea how JJ will react. And finally, I agree with you, Headstall and B1ue, in real life, love changes you, changes your behaviour (at least it has in my life). That being said I know a longterm couple (about 10years together) that have a very open relationship. We were at a party and one of them slipped out of the room to ummm... enjoy the hospitality of the host. I was speaking to the other partner and he confessed that he was jealous. Jealous of his partner - they had both been eyeing off the host. Intellectually I understand it, emotionally not at all. Ok this is final. A snippet from Timothy's quoted passage - Will to Zach “I could be with just you.You’re more than enough to make me happy.” It would appear that even in CAP, love can change a person... 3
Timothy M. Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 I'm really glad Mark wrote that scene - There is one big difference between the two situations - Will is not deceiving Zach. Alex cheated on JJ. Me too, it is one of my favorite chapters and scenes in all of CAP, and I have the feeling it will remain so, even if (or should I say when) Will's and Zach's relationship falls apart due to external or internal pressure. Hopefully not for some time yet, I'm a huge Zach fan (in spite of his one kink, lol). Thank you for stating the difference so succinctly. 2
PrivateTim Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 “I could be with just you.You’re more than enough to make me happy.” The points, yours and Timothy's are all good, but the above line sounds like an alcoholic saying, "I can stop drinking anytime I want." 3
Timothy M. Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 Based on personal experience: Revenge is best kept silent. You brag and it WILL be catch up with ya. Inner smugness is OK isn't? I think you are both right, and Wade is clever and controlled enough to keep absolutely quiet about this. I'm less sure of Matt. But I guess it depends on what kind of misfortune befalls Hammer. If it's nothing illegal, a bit of gloating might be fun. Adding insult to injury - or whatever the term is (in Danish it's føje spot til skade). 2
Headstall Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) Against my better judgement, I want to talk about Will. He IS such a polarizing character, as I have said before. I would fit in the category of a Will lover but that is not to say I like everything about him. As Blue has pointed out...CAP world has a different reality from the real world in many instances. I would agree with Bucket that we have intellectual responses and emotional responses and they often differ. The discussion about Will and Alex has been quite interesting. For me it is a case of apples and oranges...we hate or like each one for different and separate reasons. I, like Tim, loved the scene that Mark wrote between Zach and Will and I got much from it. It was touching and powerful. As much as I felt that, I still had two different responses to it. Intellectually I know that Will and Zach are 16/17 years old and deserve to live their lives as young people. As well they are in a most difficult situation with Zach needing to be in the closet to protect his career potential...I also got that they were expressing a very real and genuine love and commitment to one another..and it was beautiful. However, when I examine my emotional response, the picture I see is a somewhat different one...unless I continue to suspend belief because it is CAP world...that picture becomes uncomfortable. It gives me the feeling that, if the love they share is as real as it seems, then what Private Tim says holds true ...in the real world even if your partner says it's okay to sleep with other people, you still don't do it because it will hurt the person you love and be a danger to the relationship in most cases. Zach doesn't want Will to sleep with anyone else but he accepts it because he has to. That is why, for me, a certain amount of distance is sometimes needed, where I shrug my shoulders and say 'well, that is a part of CAP' and go on from there. As real as the characters are to us, it is a story. What Wade and Matt have, and are both fighting for, is what keeps me going and gives me the most satisfaction. But back to Will and through him, Zach. It is hard for me to think of Will as only 16...he has been through so much already, and as I have said before, he has more experiences than a lot of 20- somethings. So I totally buy that he is very much in love with Zach. My emotional response to what he is doing, tells me that Will is playing with fire...he has only slept with three other guys which I guess is good for Will...but does Zach know how often he sleeps with Devon or that Will has Devon living in his apartment in Chicago? We all know about Zach's admitted jealousy...how will he handle it if Devon is still around in a year...will he start adding up who has the most sex with Will. I think a certain amount of pessimism is required when thinking of this all working out but it is CAP so who knows. Because of who I am and the way I am, I have to look at this from a distance sometimes and not let myself get to wrapped up in it and just enjoy the entertainment. I will admit that is not always easy because I can't help but care about these characters. It's why, like the family, we all worry about JJ...and...maybe unfairly sometimes...we demand that Alex proves himself worthy. I usually get in trouble with these long posts but...what the hell....Cheers...Gary Edited November 15, 2014 by Headstall 3
Bucket1 Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Headstall - no problems from me in your long post In many ways, CAP is as complicated and difficult as real life (some good writing there) but as you mentioned the rules are slightly different. You have asked some interesting questions - Devon living in the apartment makes me a bit uncomfortable - if he is transient then no big drama but if he is there for an extended period, it would be a source of tension. It is interesting that the whole conversation has focussed on Will sleeping around and the sacrifices that poor Zach has to suffer. Will's alleged boyfriend will not acknowledge his presence in public, will deny that there is a relationship and pretends to be religious to cover up their "shameful, dirty, embarrassing" connection. There can be no public affection, no holding hands at a restaurant, only stolen hidden moments between his all important career, sneaking around in hotel rooms. Zach has made it clear that this will never change. Let's be very clear - this is no picnic for Will - it's slow drip water torture. If you want real pain - wait until Zach denies the relationship with Will there. When Zach announces publicly, in front of Will, that Will is nothing more than a clingy rich cousin who watches his games. When Zach says that he never has and never will sleep with Will. Zach denouncing his all important and life changing relationship as a nothing, as a fantasy on Parnell's part. That's when Will's heart is removed from his body and stomped on for all the world to see. I guess that's in later chapters 2
Bucket1 Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 I think you are both right, and Wade is clever and controlled enough to keep absolutely quiet about this. I'm less sure of Matt. But I guess it depends on what kind of misfortune befalls Hammer. If it's nothing illegal, a bit of gloating might be fun. Adding insult to injury - or whatever the term is (in Danish it's føje spot til skade). Assuming Elizabeth doesn't have Hammer imprisoned for extended periods, when he returns to his bad habits I can see Wade showing restraint (while dialling his mother) but Matt saying "didn't you learn from last time". 1
Headstall Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) We all have our own perspectives...It's what makes the world go round. Zach understands the limitations he places on their relationship. He has a life goal that is ingrained in him so he has to pay a price because the world of professional sports ( and particularly the NFL ) cannot tolerate a gay man within their holy realm. I refuse to blame Zach for that. In the scenes Mark has written with Zach as narrator we have learned that he takes those limitations all on himself and he will take his punishment for it. As tough and ruthless as he can be, he is suffering every day of his life. He has thought many times about throwing it all away, for the freedom to love Will openly. Like JJ, he has learned some defenses that are less than admirable, but the world of sport/football, in 2002-2003 requires it. Zach chose religion as the best option for his cover, hating it all the while. He chooses to be celibate outside of his relationship with Will. His other choice was to sleep with women, which Will has acknowledged, bothered him.I am aware that Zach was having trouble with getting it up at times. So they make do in a less than ideal situation where they both get hurt. I don't think either one want to hurt the other intentionally but their reality is such that they will. Zach feels he has to accept that Will has full freedom to have sex with others. I think there is the potential there for disaster but I cannot judge Zach or blame him for not coming out. That is a choice we all have to make when it is right for us...and sometimes we pay a price for doing it or not doing it. I blame social conventions that are ever so slowly receding into the past. Will makes his own decisions and he has chosen to have sex with other guys and it is a stretch to think it is to provide additional cover for Zach. Nobody from the press knows when he is in the sling room with Devon.... Edited November 16, 2014 by Headstall 4
Timothy M. Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 You're probably right, Gary. So maybe Devon would have to be the pretend boyfriend at some point. But so far no one has any real suspicion of Will and Zach. I think Parnell is just a trouble maker who is jealous of Zach's talent and grasping at straws. If it ever came to the point where Zach had to publicly deny being gay and with Will, I think his reputation might be ruined anyway - and maybe his career with it ? 1
mmike1969 Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 So maybe Devon would have to be the pretend boyfriend at some point... ...If it ever came to the point where Zach had to publicly deny being gay and with Will, I think his reputation might be ruined anyway - and maybe his career with it ? 1) someone is going to figure out that Will is 16 at this point in history and that revelation is going to freak people out if you go with "Will has a boyfriend." 2) ESPN press conference: Zach "I did not have sex with my cousin Will Schulter"... Yeah, that's not going to go very well. 3
Timothy M. Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) 1) someone is going to figure out that Will is 16 at this point in history and that revelation is going to freak people out if you go with "Will has a boyfriend." yeah that was sort of what I meant by 'at some point', but didn't Will just turn seventeen and get his driving licence ? PS The other half of your post had me Edited November 16, 2014 by Timothy M. 1
Bucket1 Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 We all have our own perspectives...It's what makes the world go round. Zach understands the limitations he places on their relationship. He has a life goal that is ingrained in him so he has to pay a price because the world of professional sports ( and particularly the NFL ) cannot tolerate a gay man within their holy realm. I refuse to blame Zach for that. If it seemed as if I was blaming Zach then I want to clarify that was not what i meant - Zach has a very hard road ahead of him. I just wanted to point out that it is BOTH of them that suffer. It's not fun being the partner of someone who is unable or unwilling to acknowledge who you are. As I have stated before the whole situation is crap, unfair and unjust. It's getting better but still not easy on anyone and the poor souls caught in the middle are not to blame. And as for mmike1969's ESPN press conference 2
PrivateTim Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 yeah that was sort of what I meant by 'at some point', but didn't Will just turn seventeen and get his driving licence ? PS The other half of your post had me 16. You get your DL at 16 in CA. Some states in the U.S. are as young as 14 years old.
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