Star Wars: Original Writer's Story vs. Open interpretation

[W_L]

With the recent Star Wars sequels having taken place without George Lucas' presence or involvement, there's an interesting example now of a popular story under the stewardship of a non-original source writer. George Lucas himself has publicly disliked the new direction as something different than his own, but freely admits he sold his creative rights to the story even though he has other ideas of where things should be:

 

 

If you take this concept beyond just George Lucas and also apply it to Actors like Mark Hamil, who disagree with how fundamentally Writer/Director Rian Johnson had altered the character, created by Lucas, you have an interesting meta-situation where the character of a story is basically telling you the new direction doesn't flow with the archetype of the original basis for the character

 

 

Right now fans of Star Wars are divided against the studio, Disney, and the movie's director. Perhaps, the ultimate issue is that instead of writing a story that flowed logically from Star Wars Episode 1-6, the new series took too many licenses with characters.

 

This is not a "small" issue of stormtrooper A falling without getting shot that people argue sci-fi fans pick apart far too much. It is a fundamental issue of writing, when you are not the original author and instead of trying to blend original ideas, you take radical departure from preexisting characters and universal rules.

 

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The recent "disappointment", or I'd plainly consider a flop based on the low end box office results and bad audience ratings, by Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi, this boils down to creative limits within existing stories.

 

I think there are limits to what is logical for pre-existing universes that we read and write for, whether it is fan fiction or original fiction.

[CassieQ]

A  flop?  Wasn't The Last Jedi the second highest grossing release of 2017 after only 2 weeks in theaters?

[Brayon]

First off... NO SPOILERS!!!!!!! I still haven't seen Episode 8 yet.

 

That said, I welcome the Disney changes. Frankly, Lucas was HORRIBLE as a storyteller, and my evidence is the Prequels he wrote and directed. Rogue One, and Episode 7 were awesome. I'm waiting for Episode 8 to hit On Demand.

[W_L]

@CassieQ

 

The Domestic box office was only $610,725,821 as of today.

 

www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

 

In foreign markets, especially China being one of the largest movie watching emerging markets and it has been completely pulled in just a few weeks, the performance was below expectations. If you are aiming for $1.6 billion worldwide and $750 million domestically, you short

 

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/905945/Star-Wars-Last-Jedi-flop-China-box-office-pulled

 

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-expected-global-box-office/

 

It's a flop, it's not a bomb, as the movie did not lose money.

 

It also divided Star Wars viewers immensely on its storyline and plot:

 

Don't read this next section if you haven't seen the movie:

 

Spoiler

Putting Finn on a useless side quest with a badly organized romantic plot is bad plotting.

 

Making Luke a defeatist and a child killer is out of character.

 

Giving Leia the ability to fly in space by using the "Force" is out of reason, you can retcon that she had Jedi training from Luke, but when have you seen a Jedi fly in the vacuum of Space. That got everyone laughing in the theatre at the ridiculous contrivance.

 

 

Yes, there's a lot of disappointment and a lot of problems that can squarely be placed on the Rian Johnson as the person who attempted to change the movie to how he thought Star Wars needed to be. JJ Abrams from both his work on Star Trek franchise and Star Wars 7, demonstrated at least respect for source material, but there are limits to what you can do in a universe with history. History creates a logical flow of events, deviating from logic is fine if your story is meant to be illogical, but that's "Spaceballs", not "Star Wars".

 

@BHopper2

 

First off... NO SPOILERS!!!!!!! I still haven't seen Episode 8 yet.

 

That said, I welcome the Disney changes. Frankly, Lucas was HORRIBLE as a storyteller, and my evidence is the Prequels he wrote and directed. Rogue One, and Episode 7 were awesome. I'm waiting for Episode 8 to hit On Demand.

 

You'll love the Porgs!

 

Watch Episode 8 with lower expectations, I think most of the fans expected far more thank we actually should have

Edited January 28, 2018 by W_L

[CassieQ]

I know there are some people who were unhappy with the way the plot went, but I'm not one of them.  There were some things I didn't like, but overall, I thought it was fine.  I think Rian Johnson was in a rough spot.  Fans were unhappy with Ep 7, because it the storyline was too close to the original Ep 4, and then people didn't like this one because it was too different.  We are hard to please.

[CassieQ]

9 minutes ago, BHopper2 said:

First off... NO SPOILERS!!!!!!! I still haven't seen Episode 8 yet.

 

That said, I welcome the Disney changes. Frankly, Lucas was HORRIBLE as a storyteller, and my evidence is the Prequels he wrote and directed. Rogue One, and Episode 7 were awesome. I'm waiting for Episode 8 to hit On Demand.

I agree that Lucas was horrible.  Prequels were boring and dry.  The new ones are great!  

[W_L]

1 minute ago, CassieQ said:

I know there are some people who were unhappy with the way the plot went, but I'm not one of them.  There were some things I didn't like, but overall, I thought it was fine.  I think Rian Johnson was in a rough spot.  Fans were unhappy with Ep 7, because it the storyline was too close to the original Ep 4, and then people didn't like this one because it was too different.  We are hard to please.

 

True, but most fans did appreciate going back to Episode 4 as source materials went, look at Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritics audience reviews, we gave it an overwhelming thumbs up at 88% and 6.8/10 on Metacritics.

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/

 

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-vii---the-force-awakens

 

The Last Jedi is getting 49% on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic of 4.5/10

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-viii---the-last-jedi

 

The vocal minority wanted radical departure, but a consensus wanted a steady and logical flow of events.

 

I am hard to please, but Last Jedi really rubbed me the wrong way, like sand paper

[W_L]

12 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

I agree that Lucas was horrible.  Prequels were boring and dry.  The new ones are great!  

 

I know Jar Jar was bad and Episode 1-2 were atrocious, episode 3 was decent, but this was his universe after all.

 

I liked Episode 7 and Rogue One, but there's a difference, they were consistent with how the movies had gone from 4-6, even 1-3 in some ways.

 

The current Box office trend, the reviews, and let's be honest even you can't deny some of the scenes were just badly plotted or edited, show this was weaker in quality. It's not "Phantom menace" level of bad, but it's at least "Attack of the Clones" level of bad.

 

George Lucas' script should not have been scrapped completely by Disney or Rian Johnson, my point on this is that much of the problems were based on around how they wrote it.

 

Viscerally, it's beautiful movie, but for development/plot, it has a lot of pitfalls.

[FormerMember4]

While I think Lucas had deficits, it will always be his. No matter who owns it. 

It is no longer the story I loved, that was apparent with the prequels. Those just make me cringe, and that was under Lucas.

Disney bought the franchise at a HUGE bargain. For the sole purpose of making money. They could care less what my generation thinks. They are making movies for the stockholders and young ones who aren’t invested in the originals.

The goal  is to crank out a new movie every 18 months. They will package them over the effects, not the characters or story.

Edited January 28, 2018 by BlindAmbition

[Mikiesboy]

17 minutes ago, BlindAmbition said:

While I think Lucas had deficits, it will always be his. No matter who owns it. 

It is no longer the story I loved, that was apparent with the prequels. Those just make me cringe, and that was under Lucas.

Disney bought the franchise at a HUGE bargain. For the sole purpose of making money. They could care less what my generation thinks. They are making movies for the stockholders and young ones who aren’t invested in the originals.

The goal  is to crank out a new movie every 18 months. They will package them over the effects, not the characters or story.

Agree with you, jp. It's all about the money. There is little care about the story and what there is weak.

[Brayon]

Well, it's not just with Star Wars. Heck, I read two stories where the Headlines were, and I quote:

"Millenials watch Friends, and are troubled about it's 'Problematic' humor."

"Young People feel James Bond Movies are 'Problematic'."

 

Hollywood, is just looking at modern audiences and trying to bank on SJW causes. The end result is they are going to fail.

[W_L]

1 hour ago, BlindAmbition said:

While I think Lucas had deficits, it will always be his. No matter who owns it. 

It is no longer the story I loved, that was apparent with the prequels. Those just make me cringe, and that was under Lucas.

Disney bought the franchise at a HUGE bargain. For the sole purpose of making money. They could care less what my generation thinks. They are making movies for the stockholders and young ones who aren’t invested in the originals.

The goal  is to crank out a new movie every 18 months. They will package them over the effects, not the characters or story.

 

1 hour ago, Mikiesboy said:

Agree with you, jp. It's all about the money. There is little care about the story and what there is weak.

 

Agreed, money is their main goal right now, not the story.

 

If the story quality declines and all there is left are effects, then we get what we paid for.

 

Still I am cautiously hopeful about episode 9 returning to form, I will note, I feel bad for JJ Abrams. Again, it might be me, but if you are going to do a revision of an existing universe like Star Wars, the least you could have done is do it under one writer/director's direction. Collaboration is something writers do a lot, but changing writers in mid-story is usually a bad idea.

 

 

[Mikiesboy]

24 minutes ago, BHopper2 said:

Well, it's not just with Star Wars. Heck, I read two stories where the Headlines were, and I quote:

"Millenials watch Friends, and are troubled about it's 'Problematic' humor."

"Young People feel James Bond Movies are 'Problematic'."

 

Hollywood, is just looking at modern audiences and trying to bank on SJW causes. The end result is they are going to fail.

i'm sure Michael read me something about Friends 'triggering' people...and James Bond also ... i just shake my head ...

[FormerMember4]

28 minutes ago, BHopper2 said:

Well, it's not just with Star Wars. Heck, I read two stories where the Headlines were, and I quote:

"Millenials watch Friends, and are troubled about it's 'Problematic' humor."

"Young People feel James Bond Movies are 'Problematic'."

 

Hollywood, is just looking at modern audiences and trying to bank on SJW causes. The end result is they are going to fail.

Millennials are stunted emotionally. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for that. They hold conversations with technology, not people. The generation where everyone wins a prize. As a company, not wise to put all your eggs with them.

[Mikiesboy]

5 minutes ago, BlindAmbition said:

Millennials are stunted emotionally. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for that. They hold conversations with technology, not people. The generation where everyone wins a prize. As a company, not wise to put all your eggs with them.

I do despair jp, I do.

[W_L]

50 minutes ago, Mikiesboy said:

I do despair jp, I do.

 

57 minutes ago, BlindAmbition said:

Millennials are stunted emotionally. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for that. They hold conversations with technology, not people. The generation where everyone wins a prize. As a company, not wise to put all your eggs with them.

 

1 hour ago, BHopper2 said:

Well, it's not just with Star Wars. Heck, I read two stories where the Headlines were, and I quote:

"Millenials watch Friends, and are troubled about it's 'Problematic' humor."

"Young People feel James Bond Movies are 'Problematic'."

 

Hollywood, is just looking at modern audiences and trying to bank on SJW causes. The end result is they are going to fail.

 

Hey I "resemble" that comment

 

Millennial are different based our birth year, I like to think guys like me who were born in the late 80's with our teen years during the internet boom and smartphone revolution being coinciding with 9/11 and Columbine, being one group and the kids who were teens during the Great Recession and the social media revolution with scary ramification for bullying as the other group.

 

My generation is seeking connections, seeking new ways of being human in a chaotic world, where any moment can be your last due to some insanity.

 

The popular media are shortsighted as to the motivation of my generation, @BHopper2 it is not just a SJW monolithic cause that propels people, prior to the causes, there's an "affect" or influence of historical events like technology and tragedy, and after a cause there's "effect", which is still evolving today with things like #MeToo.

 

Movies today try to cash in on the causes from traditional standpoint without understanding the reason "why" they are important.

 

Another name for my generation other than "Millennial" is Generation Y or "Generation Why?"

[TetRefine]

Oh yes, the tired old trope of blaming millennials....  

[W_L]

1 hour ago, TetRefine said:

Oh yes, the tired old trope of blaming millennials....  

 

Don't trust anyone over 40 Matt

[Hermetically Sealed]

The movie is in no way shape or form a flop.  That is just ridiculous.  I would also point out the Mark Hamill story was widely misrepresented. He has been pointing that out well before the movie's release. Personally, your entire premise reeks of bias.

[CassieQ]

7 hours ago, W_L said:

 

I know Jar Jar was bad and Episode 1-2 were atrocious, episode 3 was decent, but this was his universe after all.

 

I liked Episode 7 and Rogue One, but there's a difference, they were consistent with how the movies had gone from 4-6, even 1-3 in some ways.

 

The current Box office trend, the reviews, and let's be honest even you can't deny some of the scenes were just badly plotted or edited, show this was weaker in quality. It's not "Phantom menace" level of bad, but it's at least "Attack of the Clones" level of bad.

 

George Lucas' script should not have been scrapped completely by Disney or Rian Johnson, my point on this is that much of the problems were based on around how they wrote it.

 

Viscerally, it's beautiful movie, but for development/plot, it has a lot of pitfalls.

If you wanted another movie with a plucky young Padawan learning from a wise master, I suggest you give Ep 5 a watch.  

 

I agree some scenes were just bad (the one with Leia comes to mind) but there were also some great characters arcs in the movie, especially regarding Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker, with some decent development with Finn, Poe and Ray as well.  I think taking the movie in a new direction was a risk, and that it paid off this time.  

Edited January 29, 2018 by CassieQ

[W_L]

1 hour ago, Hermetically Sealed said:

The movie is in no way shape or form a flop.  That is just ridiculous.  I would also point out the Mark Hamill story was widely misrepresented. He has been pointing that out well before the movie's release. Personally, your entire premise reeks of bias.

 

Uh, didn't you see my status posting after I watched the movie or the comments I made in chat, I don't think anyone would have mistaken me for a fan of Episode 8

 

Is it Bias? Yes

 

Is it a Flop? Yes, when you expect to make $750-800 million domestically and come out with 610 million domestically after 2 month run. Also, it's a flop when a major market pulled your movie after 2 weeks of a run. 

 

A flop is not a Box office bomb, they'd have to do a really bad job to go below $200 million in overall gross. They made money, but failed to meet expectations.

 

19 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

If you wanted another movie with a plucky young Padawan learning from a wise master, I suggest you give Ep 5 a watch.  

 

I agree some scenes were just bad (the one with Leia comes to mind) but there were also some great characters arcs in the movie, especially regarding Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker, with some decent development with Finn, Poe and Ray as well.  I think taking the movie in a new direction was a risk, and that it paid off this time.  

 

Well, if you like Episode 6, the Ewoks now have competition with the Porgs  

 

Also, did you like that arc with Admiral Holdo and Poe? I mean honestly, all she had to do was tell Poe, "Hey dude, we're doing this because xxx" and there wouldn't be any conflict or drama. It's empty tension and just shows off Poe as being too rebellious for his own good.

 

Compare that to Lando's plight in Empire Strike Back, he couldn't tell Han and Leia about Vader et al, because he had a gun pointed to his head with Cloud City at risk. That's real tension within the plot and real necessity for an action to take place.

 

As for another "new direction" plot point which I'd also note as weird:

Spoiler

Yoda and force ghost can throw lightning now, what the heck?

 

I love seeing the old Green Master again, but why didin't the Force ghosts of the fallen Jedi not just Scorch Palpatine in the original movies?

 

 

Kylo perhaps was the only one with redeemable character development in Episode 8, it's probably one of the reasons I can see a Episode 9 working out with JJ at the helm again.

[CassieQ]

8 minutes ago, W_L said:

 

Uh, didn't you see my status posting after I watched the movie or the comments I made in chat, I don't think anyone would have mistaken me for a fan of Episode 8

 

Is it Bias? Yes

 

Is it a Flop? Yes, when you expect to make $750-800 million domestically and come out with 610 million domestically after 2 month run. Also, it's a flop when a major market pulled your movie after 2 weeks of a run. 

 

A flop is not a Box office bomb, they'd have to do a really bad job to go below $200 million in overall gross. They made money, but failed to meet expectations.

 

 

Well, if you like Episode 6, the Ewoks now have competition with the Porgs  

 

Also, did you like that arc with Admiral Holdo and Poe? I mean honestly, all she had to do was tell Poe, "Hey dude, we're doing this because xxx" and there wouldn't be any conflict or drama. It's empty tension and just shows off Poe as being too rebellious for his own good.

 

Compare that to Lando's plight in Empire Strike Back, he couldn't tell Han and Leia about Vader et al, because he had a gun pointed to his head with Cloud City at risk. That's real tension within the plot and real necessity for an action to take place.

 

As for another "new direction" plot point which I'd also note as weird:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yoda and force ghost can throw lightning now, what the heck?

 

I love seeing the old Green Master again, but why didin't the Force ghosts of the fallen Jedi not just Scorch Palpatine in the original movies?

 

 

Kylo perhaps was the only one with redeemable character development in Episode 8, it's probably one of the reasons I can see a Episode 9 working out with JJ at the helm again.

I didn't mind the whole arc with Holdo and Poe.  Poe IS too rebellious for his own good, that was the point.  I'd like to see if he has learned and grown a little bit by the time we come around to Ep 9.  

[W_L]

3 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

I didn't mind the whole arc with Holdo and Poe.  Poe IS too rebellious for his own good, that was the point.  I'd like to see if he has learned and grown a little bit by the time we come around to Ep 9.  

 

That's another one of my cautious hopes for Eps 9,.

 

Like I said, I don't like what Rian Johnson did or his choice in plot points, but it's not as bad as Phantom Menace, it's Attack of the Clone in quality at least.

 

I know JJ is really good at source material building, so there's still hope.

 

PS: @CassieQ there were Padawan in Episode 8, they're just little "Annie" at the moment