Is Alternate historical Fiction just a real world fan-fiction?

[W_L]

Alternate Historical Fiction is one of my favorite genres, a sort of what-if scenario with pre-existing real world counterparts, histories, and events.

 

Say you want to write a story about Abraham Lincoln and his friend Joshua Speed, but instead of just writing about a "potential" extra-marital affair, which maybe classified as Historical or Alternate Historical fiction depending on your views. You write them as openly gay couple in 19th century and make an even more radical change by having Lincoln run as an openly homosexual US President during 1860 election. That's an example of Alternate Historical Fiction.

 

This might seem like fan-fiction in a way, but I believe Alternate Historical Fiction is far more than Fan-Fiction, because upon the 1st changes you make into history and events, you are irrevocably creating a whole new universe with outcomes that could be completely different. While human nature may not change, nor the historical characters you use at their core, they become new characters with their own drives and motivation.

 

In mainstream fiction, Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South poses a very interesting alternate history/Sci-Fi take, where characters we may identify with negative connotations are re-examined at their core behavior. The most memorable moment for me when I read this novel was when Nathan Bedford Forrest, a real world historical figure of controversy who also had a change of heart late in his life in our history books, led the charge to end a band bigoted time travelers.

 

Beyond American history, there are many other alternate historical stories, ranging from potential of a Greek dominated world where Alexander the Great never died from his invasion of India to the dark world of a Fascist victory in World War II (Man in the High Castle by Philip K Dick being a notable example)

[Myr]

While Alternate History could be considered a FanFiction spin of life... Alternate History is already the assigned story type.  No reason to mess that up.  Real world people spun differently was extremely common in the early days of the net.  The Celebrity and Boy Bands specifically come to mind.  It should be noted that the largest FanFiction site, FanFiction.net specifically prohibits this form of FanFic.

 

🤷‍♂️

[W_L]

6 hours ago, Myr said:

While Alternate History could be considered a FanFiction spin of life... Alternate History is already the assigned story type.  No reason to mess that up.  Real world people spun differently was extremely common in the early days of the net.  The Celebrity and Boy Bands specifically come to mind.  It should be noted that the largest FanFiction site, FanFiction.net specifically prohibits this form of FanFic.

 

🤷‍♂️

 

Luckily, GA doesn't have those limitations on writing

 

Fictionpress.com also pretty open minded about free-writing except no fanfiction, I was a writer on that site years before with my non-LGBT fantasy stories from high school-College, they broke off from Fanfiction. They also claim to be the largest site for fiction, short story, and poetry. Plus, if you are into deep-thinking writing, they have an essay section.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by W_L

[Thorn Wilde]

I mean, if you define it loosely enough, anything could be considered fan fiction.  And some stories more so than others. The Mists of Avalon? Totally King Arthur fanfic. (That one's obvious.) The Book of Mormon? Bible fanfic. Paradise Lost is Divine Comedy fanfic, and every modern story about the devil is basically Paradise Lost fanfic. Every high fantasy story ever is Tolkien fanfic, and Tolkien wrote Norse and Celtic mythology fanfic. Basically, any work that was ever inspired by other works, legends, or real life people or events could be construed as fanfic. If that's your definition. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Thorn Wilde

[Thorn Wilde]

On 12/15/2018 at 8:38 PM, Myr said:

While Alternate History could be considered a FanFiction spin of life... Alternate History is already the assigned story type.  No reason to mess that up.  Real world people spun differently was extremely common in the early days of the net.  The Celebrity and Boy Bands specifically come to mind.  It should be noted that the largest FanFiction site, FanFiction.net specifically prohibits this form of FanFic.

 

🤷‍♂️

 

AO3 has celebrity/RPF stories. I personally hate it, but to each their own. 

 

On 12/16/2018 at 3:26 AM, W_L said:

 

Luckily, GA doesn't have those limitations on writing

 

Fictionpress.com also pretty open minded about free-writing except no fanfiction, I was a writer on that site years before with my non-LGBT fantasy stories from high school-College, they broke off from Fanfiction. They also claim to be the largest site for fiction, short story, and poetry. Plus, if you are into deep-thinking writing, they have an essay section.

 

I used to write on Fictionpress as well. It's where I started posting my earliest works of LGBTQ fiction (I was, like, 14, so none of that will ever see the light of day...)

[W_L]

9 hours ago, Thorn Wilde said:

 

AO3 has celebrity/RPF stories. I personally hate it, but to each their own. 

 

 

I used to write on Fictionpress as well. It's where I started posting my earliest works of LGBTQ fiction (I was, like, 14, so none of that will ever see the light of day...)

 

Oh, I'll shine a bright light on you

 

My earliest story was sort of weird fantasy: an ant colony declaring independence from their Queen, gathering allies among the animals, then overthrowing humanity  

 

Think of it as a successful Animal Farm with ants instead of pigs, more militant philosophy than economic/social, and more biting. I had a really graphic scene where the ants in the tens of millions tore a human being apart in seconds. Teenage WL was into graphic violence.

 

-----------------

 

I've been thinking about this genre recently due to a concept, right now I am toying with an alternate  historical fiction idea centered on the Early Modern era to the Present history, roughly 1500-2018 AD.

 

A lot of writers use fantasy elements like Vampires and magic for these kinds of stories, but what if you grounded the character with real world contexts. What has happened to the character is beyond contemporary comprehension, but not ours based on theoretical science.

 

What if a gay man were to have lived through these last 500 years?

Could he have been a royal favorite of King Louis? An enlightenment philosopher debating with Descartes? or the devoted lover of a military genius like Fredrick II, Fredrick the Great of Prussia?

 

This could be very fun if done right, but that's the point with Alternate historical fiction, you want to explore what was and could have been like a fan fiction story.

 

[Thorn Wilde]

1 hour ago, W_L said:

 

Oh, I'll shine a bright light on you

 

My earliest story was sort of weird fantasy: an ant colony declaring independence from their Queen, gathering allies among the animals, then overthrowing humanity  

 

Think of it as a successful Animal Farm with ants instead of pigs, more militant philosophy than economic/social, and more biting. I had a really graphic scene where the ants in the tens of millions tore a human being apart in seconds. Teenage WL was into graphic violence.

 

-----------------

 

I've been thinking about this genre recently due to a concept, right now I am toying with an alternate  historical fiction idea centered on the Early Modern era to the Present history, roughly 1500-2018 AD.

 

A lot of writers use fantasy elements like Vampires and magic for these kinds of stories, but what if you grounded the character with real world contexts. What has happened to the character is beyond contemporary comprehension, but not ours based on theoretical science.

 

What if a gay man were to have lived through these last 500 years?

Could he have been a royal favorite of King Louis? An enlightenment philosopher debating with Descartes? or the devoted lover of a military genius like Fredrick II, Fredrick the Great of Prussia?

 

This could be very fun if done right, but that's the point with Alternate historical fiction, you want to explore what was and could have been like a fan fiction story.

 

 

 

....My earliest story was about a baby seal whose mum got eaten by polar bears and who was adopted by humans and then released back into the wild once it was old enough. Different strokes.  But then, I was 4 at the time. I drew pictures and everything.  

 

The first alternate history novels I read were Naomi Novik's Tremeraire series. Well, the first three anyway, got kind of sick of it after that. Napoleonic wars with an Air Force. Made up of dragons. I mean, it's kind of an awesome concept.

[W_L]

3 hours ago, Thorn Wilde said:

 

 

....My earliest story was about a baby seal whose mum got eaten by polar bears and who was adopted by humans and then released back into the wild once it was old enough. Different strokes.  But then, I was 4 at the time. I drew pictures and everything.  

 

The first alternate history novels I read were Naomi Novik's Tremeraire series. Well, the first three anyway, got kind of sick of it after that. Napoleonic wars with an Air Force. Made up of dragons. I mean, it's kind of an awesome concept.

 

Hmm...wonder if that means my teddy bear persona is traumatic

 

Technically, Evil Dead 3: Army of Darkness would have been my first intro to Alternate history, unless zombies existed in Middle Ages. I was 7 or 8 and I liked scary things that give me an excuse to snuggle up.

 

When I got old enough, I started playing PC games and getting into Empire Earth, Civilizations, and Rise of Nations, carpet bombing classical (Greco-Roman era) age cities into surrender is still fun. I however never understood how a dozen spear men can defeat a Veteran Panzer tank.

 

 

[Thorn Wilde]

On 12/18/2018 at 6:24 AM, W_L said:

Technically, Evil Dead 3: Army of Darkness would have been my first intro to Alternate history, unless zombies existed in Middle Ages.

 

I haven't seen Army of Darkness, but does it deal with historical events, though? Cause I think that's the difference between writing alternate history with fantasy or horror elements, and simply writing a horror or fantasy story set in a historical context. If that makes sense. I consider Naomi Novik's books to be alternate history because she creates a what if scenario. What if there were dragons's during the Napoleonic wars? What if we could use them to fight? How might that change the outcome? 

[W_L]

13 hours ago, Thorn Wilde said:

 

I haven't seen Army of Darkness, but does it deal with historical events, though? Cause I think that's the difference between writing alternate history with fantasy or horror elements, and simply writing a horror or fantasy story set in a historical context. If that makes sense. I consider Naomi Novik's books to be alternate history because she creates a what if scenario. What if there were dragons's during the Napoleonic wars? What if we could use them to fight? How might that change the outcome? 

 

True, since it was sem-Arthurian in terms of inspiration, and anything King Arthur related is usually fantasy, it's probably better to classify Evil Dead 3 as Fantasy with historical anachronism.

 

Talking about King Arthur though, how would you classify stories and movies surrounding the normal history like Clive Owen's 2004 King Arthur: Historical Fiction or Alternate Historical fiction, since no one can prove his existence or non-existence. 

[Thorn Wilde]

3 minutes ago, W_L said:

 

True, since it was sem-Arthurian in terms of inspiration, and anything King Arthur related is usually fantasy, it's probably better to classify Evil Dead 3 as Fantasy with historical anachronism.

 

Talking about King Arthur though, how would you classify stories and movies surrounding the normal history like Clive Owen's 2004 King Arthur: Historical Fiction or Alternate Historical fiction, since no one can prove his existence or non-existence. 

 

Well, certainly not Alternate Historical Fiction. I haven't read that particular book, but writing about King Arthur is writing a take on a legend. That to me is more similar to, say, writing stories based on the Norse Edda, or ancient Greek legends (Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Firebrand comes to mind; it has been referred to as Historical Fantasy). It can't be Alternate History if the history you're basing it on is only legend.

[W_L]

1 hour ago, Thorn Wilde said:

 

Well, certainly not Alternate Historical Fiction. I haven't read that particular book, but writing about King Arthur is writing a take on a legend. That to me is more similar to, say, writing stories based on the Norse Edda, or ancient Greek legends (Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Firebrand comes to mind; it has been referred to as Historical Fantasy). It can't be Alternate History if the history you're basing it on is only legend.

 

It's actually a movie, a lot of critics hated it, but it was based on a historical hypothesis for the "real origins" of King Arthur in folklore.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Artorius_Castus#Lucius_Artorius_Castus_as_King_Arthur_in_modern_entertainment

 

Legends are kind of weird pseudo-history, they might be inspired by actual people, but the stories about are just added and manipulated by the storyteller.

 

Look at Spartacus, Kirk Douglas' movie was Alternate historical fiction, they never found Spartacus' body or hung him on a cross, nor was Crassus into homosexual relationships with his young male slaves as far as history knows.

[Thorn Wilde]

7 hours ago, W_L said:

 

It's actually a movie, a lot of critics hated it, but it was based on a historical hypothesis for the "real origins" of King Arthur in folklore.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Artorius_Castus#Lucius_Artorius_Castus_as_King_Arthur_in_modern_entertainment

 

Legends are kind of weird pseudo-history, they might be inspired by actual people, but the stories about are just added and manipulated by the storyteller.

 

Look at Spartacus, Kirk Douglas' movie was Alternate historical fiction, they never found Spartacus' body or hung him on a cross, nor was Crassus into homosexual relationships with his young male slaves as far as history knows.

 

Oh! I have seen that film! It was terrible! 

I can't speak to the Spartacus film, but I don't think hypothesising that an ancient Roman shagged his male slaves is alternate history. There may not be sources that say so, but it's extremely likely that he did. There's a difference, I think, between filling in the blanks or taking a few minor artistic liberties, and altering the course of history in a work of fiction. Everyone who's ever written a work of historical fiction has done the former. That's why it's called historical fiction. 

[Timothy M.]

One of my favorite Young Adult fantasy writers is Diana Wynne Jones. In her Chrestomanci books, she explores the concept of parallel worlds which split off at crucial events in history. At one point Chrestomanci remarks he hates the one where Napoleon won the war with Britain, because everyone speak French and are rude to him (he's British). So if you write Chrestomanci fan fic you could have Alternate History worlds as a natural part.  

Edited December 27, 2018 by Timothy M.

[Thorn Wilde]

7 hours ago, Timothy M. said:

One of my favorite Young Adult fantasy writers is Diane Wynne Jones. In her Chrestomanci books, she explores the concept of parallel worlds which split off at crucial events in history. At one point Chrestomanci remarks he hates the one where Napoleon won the war with Britain, because everyone speaks French and are rude to him (he's British). So if you write Chrestomanci fan fic you could have Alternate History worlds as a natural part.  

 

I love Chrestomaci! I love all her books that I've read. She was a legend. Howl's Moving Castle is my favourite. That also has the parallel world thing going on.

[Timothy M.]

9 hours ago, Thorn Wilde said:

 

I love Chrestomaci! I love all her books that I've read. She was a legend. Howl's Moving Castle is my favourite. That also has the parallel world thing going on.

 

Dogsbody is my favorite. I just bought and read Enchanted Glass which is a stand-alone. That was fun too.