[LittleBuddhaTW] SOOTB 23

[Low Flyer]

I'm not sure I agree about Maggie, though, as she might not be as non-involved as it seems. The story is as seen through Connor's eyes, so if she's spending time with Toby, would we know?

 

I think you must be right. If we are to believe what's in the story, Maggie's working 18 hour days, seven days a week and has been for months. Even if this is legal, I doubt anyone could keep it up for that long.

 

I'm reluctant to be too judgemental about anyone in the story. It's easy enough to say that Ryan had it coming, but he's not playing with a full deck here is he? We already know he has some mental illness, and he's just lost a close friend and been left high and dry by those around him. It's little wonder that he's not thinking clearly. His 'ignoring' Toby before was presumably just plain old-fashioned denial.

 

Then there's Connor - I have to say I'm less sympathetic than I was before. His rebound straight into Ben's bed was simply wrong. I hope that in the cold light of day the two of them see sense before anyone is seriously hurt.

 

And where are the parents in this thing - your doorbell rings in the middle of the night and your sons tell you that one of their friends is staying the night and you just accept it? My parents certainly wouldn't, and I doubt I would in the situation. Maybe we were just a weird family though.

 

LF

[LittleBuddhaTW]

I think you must be right. If we are to believe what's in the story, Maggie's working 18 hour days, seven days a week and has been for months. Even if this is legal, I doubt anyone could keep it up for that long.

 

I don't think she's working *that* many hours.

 

Then there's Connor - I have to say I'm less sympathetic than I was before. His rebound straight into Ben's bed was simply wrong. I hope that in the cold light of day the two of them see sense before anyone is seriously hurt.

 

Read Jack Frost's thoughts on the Connor/Ben thing ... I think he hit the nail on the head, at least as far as how I saw the whole thing happening.

 

And where are the parents in this thing - your doorbell rings in the middle of the night and your sons tell you that one of their friends is staying the night and you just accept it? My parents certainly wouldn't, and I doubt I would in the situation. Maybe we were just a weird family though.

 

Well, Connor didn't exactly go over to the twins' house in the middle of the night. I believe it was the late afternoon or early evening. He bumped into their mom, who greeted him, on his way upstairs. She also called out to see if everything was alright, and made them dinner. And Connor had developed a habit of staying the night frequently, so I doubt she thought much of it (Ben and Derek's mom). We also know a bit about her and her "beliefs" if we look at some of the past chapters, specifically in regards to the Mikey situation.

 

In general, though, I think a lot of parents are pretty f**ked up when it comes to knowing how to raise their kids. I have issues with the "traditional family" model, and parents in general -- I've known more bad ones than good ones. I don't try to hide my disdain for that in my stories. Plus, the story centers around the kids, not the parents.

 

Finally, I think there are a lot of people dead set on seeing Connor and Ryan together in the end, so that clouds their judgment when it comes to other guys. What if Ryan isn't what Connor needs? What is he and Ben just "click"? So, because Connor and Ryan used to be in love, does that mean they *have* to be in the end? Or that Connor can't love someone else? Life just doesn't always work out like that.

 

I liked Nicko's post where he talks about the things that make him "love" and "hate" Connor. That shows that he sees Connor as a dynamic character. He's not perfect ... no one in the story is, because no one in real life is. We all have our faults, we all make bad choices, but if we're smart, we try to learn from them.

 

Was Connor ungrateful toward Maggie when she did all of those things for him? I think he acted a lot more grateful than most would. Is Connor not *proactively* continuing his therapy with Dr. Frazier because he chooses to, thus seeking to face his problems? Does that mean that Connor will confront and defeat every single one of his demons by the end of the story? That's doubtful, because he's only 16 ... most of us never resolve all of our "issues" even by the time we die. In fact, most people (adults) are in denial that they even have issues, so they never actively try to solve them.

 

Anyway, I'm done ranting. I'm obviously failing to convey the big picture here, but then again, I never claimed to be a good writer ... I just have a good editor.

 

*Hugz*

 

Buddha

[Boxerdude]

Finally, I think there are a lot of people dead set on seeing Connor and Ryan together in the end, so that clouds their judgment when it comes to other guys. What if Ryan isn't what Connor needs? What is he and Ben just "click"? So, because Connor and Ryan used to be in love, does that mean they *have* to be in the end? Or that Connor can't love someone else? Life just doesn't always work out like that.

 

Well, I am going to go back to the title of the story and here are the lyrics below. It starts out talking about how I hope I see you again some day, then talks about the love that is still there. In the end, I love the last verse and the final two lines. Now, this is why I believe that Connor and Ryan will end up back together again. LB, you never pick a song with out a reason, and I can't imagine that you would name a story after a song and not try to some what follow the song's story. I think you are giving this song a story. Now it does illude to "Some Day Soon" which does not mean your story will end with a happy ending but it will or seems like it should end with some hope. It is not that I am "Dead Set" on them being together, it is part of the song though.

 

Someday Out Of The Blue

Music by Elton John and Patrick Leonard

Lyrics by Tim Rice

Available on the soundtrack The Road To El Dorado

 

Some day out of the blue

In a crowded street or a deserted square

I'll turn and I'll see you

As if our love were new

Some day we can start again, some day soon

 

Here comes the night

Here come the memories

Lost in your arms

Down in the foreign fields

Not so long ago

Seems like eternity

Those sweet afternoons

Still capture me

 

I still believe

I still put faith in us

We had it all and watched it slip away

Where are we now

Not where we want to be

Those hot afternoons

Still follow me

 

Some day out of the blue

Maybe years from now

Or tomorrow night

I'll turn and I'll see you

As if we always knew

Some day we would live again, some day soon

 

I still believe

I still put faith in us

 

 

[C James]

I think you must be right. If we are to believe what's in the story, Maggie's working 18 hour days, seven days a week and has been for months. Even if this is legal, I doubt anyone could keep it up for that long.

 

I'm reluctant to be too judgemental about anyone in the story. It's easy enough to say that Ryan had it coming, but he's not playing with a full deck here is he? We already know he has some mental illness, and he's just lost a close friend and been left high and dry by those around him. It's little wonder that he's not thinking clearly. His 'ignoring' Toby before was presumably just plain old-fashioned denial.

 

Hello Low Flyer!

Congratulations on your first post, and Wecome!

 

I think you are right on target with what you say above. That is roughly what I was thinking regarding Ryan, but you said it a lot better than I've managed to do.

 

I really hope you will continue to post!

 

In general, though, I think a lot of parents are pretty f**ked up when it comes to knowing how to raise their kids. I have issues with the "traditional family" model, and parents in general -- I've known more bad ones than good ones. I don't try to hide my disdain for that in my stories. Plus, the story centers around the kids, not the parents.

 

Totally agreed on that! Personally, I like Maggie a lot, but she's not my favorite parent in the story: Tatyana (Cody's Mom) is. She is really great IMHO, but that might be because I like unconventional outlooks.

 

No disrespect intended towards your other characters, but personally I find Cody and his mother to be my favorites in the story, and the unconventionality is a huge part of that.

 

Finally, I think there are a lot of people dead set on seeing Connor and Ryan together in the end, so that clouds their judgment when it comes to other guys. What if Ryan isn't what Connor needs? What is he and Ben just "click"? So, because Connor and Ryan used to be in love, does that mean they *have* to be in the end? Or that Connor can't love someone else? Life just doesn't always work out like that.

I added the bold for the last sentence as it's IMHO the most significant here: Indeed, life usually doesn't work like that. For one thing, people change, and that's especially true of teens.

 

So, I'll ask a question of everyone here: How many are presently with the person who was their very first love? I'm betting that it's darn few if any.

 

So, IMHO, Ryan and Connor may or may not work out in the end. Personally, I'd be happy however it turns out, though I'm enough of a romantic to want to see them each with somebody nice.

 

I'm obviously failing to convey the big picture here, but then again, I never claimed to be a good writer ... I just have a good editor.

 

HOGWASH!

(I'd have used a stronger epithet if it was allowed!)

 

Kitty is indeed a great editor, but she can't build from nothing!

The reason you have people feeling so strongly about your characters is that they ARE dynamic, and hence individuals perceive facets of them that they either like or dislike. This is a truism of interpersonal relations, but it's darn rare in literature because most literary characters are not complex enough to provoke a complex (as opposed to a simple) visceral response. Yours are.

[Boxerdude]

HOGWASH!

(I'd have used a stronger epithet if it was allowed!)

 

Kitty is indeed a great editor, but she can't build from nothing!

The reason you have people feeling so strongly about your characters is that they ARE dynamic, and hence individuals perceive facets of them that they either like or dislike. This is a truism of interpersonal relations, but it's darn rare in literature because most literary characters are not complex enough to provoke a complex (as opposed to a simple) visceral response. Yours are.

 

 

I second that!!! You said better than I did. LBTW's writing is great and I agree with CJ that if you had not built such a dynamic in the characters then we would not be writing and expressing our feelings. Well said CJ !!!!!

 

 

Boxerdude

[Jack Frost]

Finally, I think there are a lot of people dead set on seeing Connor and Ryan together in the end, so that clouds their judgment when it comes to other guys. What if Ryan isn't what Connor needs? What is he and Ben just "click"? So, because Connor and Ryan used to be in love, does that mean they *have* to be in the end? Or that Connor can't love someone else? Life just doesn't always work out like that.

 

(*cuts*)

 

Anyway, I'm done ranting. I'm obviously failing to convey the big picture here, but then again, I never claimed to be a good writer ... I just have a good editor.

I agree, but then many people expect many stories to go with an happy ending (not trying to imply that you should do such way...). Just like a charming prince sucessfully found a princess for life at the end. One cannot expect first relationship to be forever. It takes many people several to dozen times to find the right person. Ryan doesn't seem to fit there since he didn't show any thoughts to Connor's feeling and ditched him there. It's better to break it off than wasting your life being together without any love. No need to delay the unevitable. - _ -;

 

And about your comment being a "good" writer, it's rather bull...Kitty can't do the editing done without anything to build from. You are the creator of this story... so no need to judge yourself. Besides, if I didn't really like your story...I wouldn't be here keep on reading it, even there are parts I don't really like seeing...but it happens to every story anyhow, not just yours.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Jack Frost

[Boxerdude]

I am still holding on to my gutt feeling. Go back and ready my post with the words to the song "Someday out of the Blue." It talks about sorrow, love, missing that love, looking for it and hopefully finding it again. I believe that that song is about the same two people. I may be wrong, but if that is the title of this stroy, then it must have a premise. It does not mean they will end up together at the end of the story, but the song eludes to the fact that they eventually will. Every title of every chapter, has a thread running through it that ties it back to the song. Why should the name of the story be any different.

 

Boxerdude

[LittleBuddhaTW]

I am still holding on to my gutt feeling. Go back and ready my post with the words to the song "Someday out of the Blue." It talks about sorrow, love, missing that love, looking for it and hopefully finding it again. I believe that that song is about the same two people. I may be wrong, but if that is the title of this stroy, then it must have a premise. It does not mean they will end up together at the end of the story, but the song eludes to the fact that they eventually will. Every title of every chapter, has a thread running through it that ties it back to the song. Why should the name of the story be any different.

 

Hmmm ... and here I was sitting here thinking "Someday Out Of the Blue" referred to the lacrosse ball hitting Connor in Chapter 1 ...

 

[ex52tech]

Anyway, I'm done ranting. I'm obviously failing to convey the big picture here, but then again, I never claimed to be a good writer ... I just have a good editor.

 

*Hugz*

 

Buddha

 

I think you have conveyed the picture better than you know. Most people just have a responce to a whole story, or a single character.

 

This story is so well written that you are getting all kinds of different responces to all the characters and some of the situations. Some of the feedback may not be heading the way you thought it would, but it creates different emotional responces in all of us.

 

I think that almost everyone of us can see ourselves in one of these characters, or one of the events in the story. That is what makes this story so good.

 

I know I'm going to just hate it when I read the final chapter, I'll want more.

 

Thanks for the great story.

 

Ex.

[Boxerdude]

Hmmm ... and here I was sitting here thinking "Someday Out Of the Blue" referred to the lacrosse ball hitting Connor in Chapter 1 ...

 

 

We are not all that nieve ( spelling sorry). But, I think you are deeper and know where you are going and have a path. The title of a story usually leads one down the path. There is the begining of the song, and the ending. You speak only of the beginning so I am left to wonder.

 

Boxerdude

[Altimexis]

So, I'll ask a question of everyone here: How many are presently with the person who was their very first love? I'm betting that it's darn few if any.

 

I am, but I'm not at all typical and I certainly don't recommend my approach. I never dated in high school and used my studies as an excuse until I finished all 10 years of my higher education. I fell in love for the first time in my life at the age of 29, just after starting to come to grips with my being gay. I went to a shrink who told me that 1) I'm at most bisexual, 2) my shyness is a cause rather than a symptom and 3) it's not a good time to be gay (it was the mid-80's after all, and AIDS was rampant). I saw the shrink in the first place because being gay didn't fit with my life goals, as if we really have a choice.

 

One week later, I met an incredible woman in a hiking club and fell head over heels for her. We're still together more than 21 years later. My wife and I have a loving, monogamous relationship that has stood the test of time. I finally decided to come out to her in December, just after our 20th anniversary. She was shocked, but felt terrible for the turmoil I must have felt all these years. She has been extremely supportive and we both agree that we would rather cut off our right arms than lose one-another. I'm a gay man who fell in love with a woman, and I have no regrets. The funny thing is that we never had the children I so badly wanted - it just never happened for a variety of reasons.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but the question was raised and I thought my answer deserved a little explanation.

 

Bottom line - love triumphs all.

[Jack Frost]

So, I'll ask a question of everyone here: How many are presently with the person who was their very first love? I'm betting that it's darn few if any.

I am still with my first love...it's been over three years now.

 

But yes, it's still far darn few.

[C James]

I am, but I'm not at all typical and I certainly don't recommend my approach. I never dated in high school and used my studies as an excuse until I finished all 10 years of my higher education. I fell in love for the first time in my life at the age of 29, just after starting to come to grips with my being gay. I went to a shrink who told me that 1) I'm at most bisexual, 2) my shyness is a cause rather than a symptom and 3) it's not a good time to be gay (it was the mid-80's after all, and AIDS was rampant). I saw the shrink in the first place because being gay didn't fit with my life goals, as if we really have a choice.

 

One week later, I met an incredible woman in a hiking club and fell head over heels for her. We're still together more than 21 years later. My wife and I have a loving, monogamous relationship that has stood the test of time. I finally decided to come out to her in December, just after our 20th anniversary. She was shocked, but felt terrible for the turmoil I must have felt all these years. She has been extremely supportive and we both agree that we would rather cut off our right arms than lose one-another. I'm a gay man who fell in love with a woman, and I have no regrets. The funny thing is that we never had the children I so badly wanted - it just never happened for a variety of reasons.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but the question was raised and I thought my answer deserved a little explanation.

 

Bottom line - love triumphs all.

 

Altimexis, thank you for sharing that! If you are happy (and you certainly sound like it), I think that is wonderful! I especially like your last sentence; "Bottom line - love triumphs all."

 

I am still with my first love...it's been over three years now.

 

But yes, it's still far darn few.

 

That's wonderful!

 

Well, I'm a bit less cynical about "first love lasting" thanks to these two posts. I still think it's rare, but not as rare as I'd imagined. Thanks to both of you for sharing.

 

My own opinion on SOOTB hasn't changed, though: I could see it going either way regarding Ryan and Connor. Only Buddha knows for sure..

 

Hopefully, this weekend (or soon thereafter) we get to see a new LB story, in the Summer Anthology. I'm very interested in seeing it, not just for the normal reasons, but to look at the style and contrast it to LB's other stories.

 

One other thing I'm curious about... What exactly happened between Ben and Connor? LB artfully broke the chapter at that point, so we don't really know yet... Anyone have any opinions? Mine is that something physical happened. LB did weigh in on this, but didn't as I recall definitively state an answer. I suspect that we will find out for sure in Ch 24.

[C James]

Here's the final few lines in the "Ben and Connor" scene in Chapter 24:

Kitty, do you perhaps mean Chapter 23?

Ben let go of my face and pulled me into a tight hug. I was so tired and confused, and I could tell he was, too. The whole day -- no, the past few months -- had just been so f**ked up.

 

"Connor, I know I want to be more than just friends," Ben said softly, running his fingers through my hair. "How about we try it out, but no serious commitments? Would that be okay?"

 

"Yeah," I replied. "I think that would be a good idea."

 

Now, I don't know exactly what was going on in LBTW's mind while he was writing that, but the way I read it was that if he had continued the scene for one more sentence, it would have read something like this:

 

And then, with our arms still wrapped around each other, we went to sleep.

* * * * * *

That's probably right. I was probably reading too much into Connor nibbling on Ben's neck. Connor also did tell Toby that he and Ben weren't together yet.

 

Incidentally, the various opinions regarding who should be with whom at the end of the story remind me very much of Dom Luka's Desert Dropping, and the SRITE vs. LRITE debates. (maybe I should mention LGAITE's to keep Nick happy? )

IMHO, only when truly exceptional characters are created does a story provoke such strong feelings.

Edited July 19, 2006 by C James

[LittleBuddhaTW]

So the timing of the Summer Anthology may be just perfect (coincidentally ).

 

I think so too ... My summer anthology entry is much "lighter," and should give everyone a chance for a little breather. Also, I hear that C James has a summer anthology story, too ...

 

And for those of you who don't read my blog, Chapter 24 probably won't be out until toward the end of the month. I'll also probably end up posting the first chapter of "When I See You Again" at around that time, too, but will then start working on another serial that I've got in the works (yes, I'll finish SOOTB first! ), and post chapters of WISYA only when I'm having writer's block or I feel particularly inspired (which I'm not feeling about that story at the moment, but who knows ... I could always end up running two stories at the same time).

 

*Hugz*

 

Buddha

[Wind Dancer]

This chapter was depressing.

It left me depressed for the ENTIRE weekend. I worked 25 hours at work and had more problems faking my smile than usual.

 

I disagree; Connor's feelings toward Maggie, while not justified, are completely logical. His own mother never mothered him. Now that he's recieving some attention from a motherly figure, he's not liking it because it's so foreign to him. He's been used to controlling his life and now he has lost some of that control. Also, you must consider how often in the chapters when Toby is dealing with the Leukemia (SP?) it's mentioned that Maggie has been able to show her emotions about Toby and actually showed this worry to Connor. Isn't that one of the reasons he was upset with Ryan?

 

And now onto Ryan...

 

I understand why Ryan's reactions to all the bad things have been happening. From what I've understood, out of my own life experiances, when things turn to the worse I tend to turn away from people. I push myself away, distract myself with other things to do. This is why I even started dancing. I lost someone close to me and suddenly everything else didn't matter and I stopped being who I once was.

I don't agree with Connor's reaction to the date though. I think it's reasonable for him to lash out, but kicking down a door isn't exactly easy. That's not my point. I really hate that he used Ryan's ADD as an attack. I have a lot of social anxiety problems and I've been attacked with that and believe me, it hurts. It's like being attacked for being gay or black. It's not something you can fix. So here we see Connor turning into the bullies that attacked him while in school.

As for the relationship between them. Somehow, or another, they will need to learn to live together because, unless Connor moves out, they have to. I also think they'll end up back together.

Ben's kind of a rebound.

 

So I'm done complaining. Much love David.

Keep writing.

Morgan and I appreciate it!

Kitty *hugs* hehe good editing skills.

 

-Benni

[C James]

I think so too ... My summer anthology entry is much "lighter," and should give everyone a chance for a little breather.

 

I can't wait to see your entry!

 

Also, I hear that C James has a summer anthology story, too ...

 

LB, thank you!

 

Yes, indeed I do. It's called "No Shirt? No Problem!" and I'll be starting a thread in the e-fiction discussion forum for it once it's online.

 

And for those of you who don't read my blog, Chapter 24 probably won't be out until toward the end of the month. I'll also probably end up posting the first chapter of "When I See You Again" at around that time, too, but will then start working on another serial that I've got in the works (yes, I'll finish SOOTB first! ), and post chapters of WISYA only when I'm having writer's block or I feel particularly inspired (which I'm not feeling about that story at the moment, but who knows ... I could always end up running two stories at the same time).

 

What? You won't make the penultimate chapter of SOOTB a cliffhanger, and then put it on Hiatus for a year or two? (just kidding!)

 

I'm looking forward to whatever you decide to write, be it WISYA or the new one.

[Boxerdude]

This chapter was depressing.

It left me depressed for the ENTIRE weekend. I worked 25 hours at work and had more problems faking my smile than usual.

 

I too had some real difficulty with it. I don't know if you read my first post right after reading it, but it was everything I could think to put into words. It aslo "triggered" another disaster for me. Yesterday at work I had a complete breakdown, I could not get that SOB's face out of my head who raped me when I was 8 years old. I had to call my Shrink and meet with my Therapist. The good thing is, that making myself read the story and going through the experience with Connor having to pick out his rapist may have actually started giving me some closure. My mind was ready to deal with the final set of emotions. It was a sad day, but in the end, I think it was the first day of me getting past a very bad experience. (Note, I only started remembering it happened 6 years ago, I was 36 when the memory came flooding back.) LB has done an incredible job by writing this chapter, the reality the emotions, the drama. It is all real for those of us who have had to deal with it. So you are not alone in being sad. You are among friends and company.

 

I disagree; Connor's feelings toward Maggie, while not justified, are completely logical. His own mother never mothered him. Now that he's recieving some attention from a motherly figure, he's not liking it because it's so foreign to him. He's been used to controlling his life and now he has lost some of that control. Also, you must consider how often in the chapters when Toby is dealing with the Leukemia (SP?) it's mentioned that Maggie has been able to show her emotions about Toby and actually showed this worry to Connor. Isn't that one of the reasons he was upset with Ryan?

 

Actually I am glad someone finally put into words what I could not. You have done a very good job of pointing out the obvious. I think we all tried to over analysis it instead of just seeing it. Cuddos to you!

 

And now onto Ryan...

 

I understand why Ryan's reactions to all the bad things have been happening. From what I've understood, out of my own life experiances, when things turn to the worse I tend to turn away from people. I push myself away, distract myself with other things to do. This is why I even started dancing. I lost someone close to me and suddenly everything else didn't matter and I stopped being who I once was.

I don't agree with Connor's reaction to the date though. I think it's reasonable for him to lash out, but kicking down a door isn't exactly easy. That's not my point. I really hate that he used Ryan's ADD as an attack. I have a lot of social anxiety problems and I've been attacked with that and believe me, it hurts. It's like being attacked for being gay or black. It's not something you can fix. So here we see Connor turning into the bullies that attacked him while in school.

As for the relationship between them. Somehow, or another, they will need to learn to live together because, unless Connor moves out, they have to. I also think they'll end up back together.

Ben's kind of a rebound.

 

You are absolutely on the mark here. My partner will do the same thing and you would think after 17 years he would learn to just come and talk to me, nope, that is just his nature. I don't like the ADD comment either, but I am not sure that is really what Ryan upset about. I think he was just shaken into reality at how much pain he caused Connor and I think he still knew Connor loved him deeply and his out rage was a testament to his love. That kind of outrage comes from deep deep pain. I know, I have to amost get to that point just to get my partners attention when he has hurt me deeply.

 

My therapist made a comment yesterday, she said that I obviously related to Connor, but who was Ryan to me. I was not sure what she meant at first, so I thought about it, the told her he was Mike (my life time partner.) I did cry after that. But, if it was not for the writing of a great author, these things would not means so much and touch us so deeply.

 

So I'm done complaining. Much love David.

Keep writing.

Morgan and I appreciate it!

Kitty *hugs* hehe good editing skills.

 

Don't you dare even think you are comlaining. This forum is for us to voice our opinions and feelings. You say what ever is on your mind. We are like a support group in a way. We help each other so keep on writing, I would like to hear more of what you have to say.

 

Hugs,

 

Boxerdude

[C James]

 

... and did I happen to mention ?

Kitty

 

ROFL!!!!!!!

 

BTW, I'm very intrigued by the title of LB's short story (for the anthology): A free man in Paris.

The "Free man" part has me perplexed.. Can't wait to read it!

[C James]

Well, let's see ... a certain writer has been known on occasion to use song titles as story titles ... hmmm ... I wonder ...?

 

Hmmmm!!! I thought of that, and looked for an EJ song by that name a few days ago but came up blank.

However, a quick check of google after seeing your post does mention a Niel Diamond song by that name!

 

Anyway, I think you guys are going to really like LB's anthology story ... I had a lot of fun working on it. He also consulted with Xandra Kitee (who is also responsible for a lot of the graphic design on LB's website) for authenticity, and she suggested some things that really added to the story.

Kitty

 

Now that's attention to detail!!! I think it's going to be great!

[AFriendlyFace]

"You go*****n, f****** sonofabi****! I f******* hate you! I wish I'd never f******* met you, you no good piece of a** lint! If I believed in God, then I'd wish you would go straight to f******* h*** and burn, you b****** p****! F*** YOU! F*** YOU! GOD, I F******* HATE YOOOUUU!" I screamed at the top of my lungs, startling even myself at my outrage.

 

 

"I told you to back the f*** off, Ryan," I said, this time my voice much lower. "What part of 'back the f*** off' don't you understand? Are you retarded, too, besides the ADD?"

I realize that the ADD thing is just a much hotter issue for Ryan, but frankly if someone told me they hated me, wished they'd never met me, and further hoped I would (theoretically) spend an enternity of unbelievable pain and suffering....well I'd be more upset about that than someone intimating I was stupid as well as ADD. I say this as someone who, though never diagnosed with ADD and fully functional, can only be charitably described as ditzy, flakey, spacey, and generally lacking the ability to focus.

 

I do understand that these other things are said more often and people are desensitized to them, but I think this in itself is symptomatic of one of the problems with society. If you actually HATE someone and wish you'd never met them then surely this shouldn't be glossed over. Especially in the case of Connor who had a horrible life until he met Ryan. If he'd truly trade back for that and never have to meet Ryan then surely this is a very powerful insult! Then there's the whole wishing the person went to hell. Whether you believe in it or not hell is by definition the absolute most horrible thing that could happen to someone. If Connor REALLY wanted Ryan to experience unbelievable pain FOREVER, then I don't see how that's comparable to a jab about his ADD.

 

Don't get me wrong I think the ADD remark was incredibly mean and hurtful and I'm not trivalizing it nor am I defending it. I'm just saying as far as mean things go if you take each one at face value the previous ones were much worse.

 

Obviously Connor's other remarks weren't even true. If he truly hated Ryan THAT much he wouldn't have felt guilty at the end. He'd also have to be completely insane to prefer his previous life without Ryan to his current life with him. However, just because his other words weren't true and were only said in anger doesn't really give him the right to say them. They were horrible things and people should think before they go flippantly saying them. Words are a very powerful weapon and shouldn't be taken lightly. If someone says those things to me I'm going to take it seriously (even if I know they don't mean it I'm going to be hurt and I'm going to make a big deal about it), and if I say those things to someone (which I haven't since before my teens) then it's safe to assume I'm much closer to meaning them in the literal sense than most people (I couldn't imagine actually meaning them, but then I couldn't imagine saying them either). Random insults aren't so bad IMO. F*** you is something that would hardly faze me (I mean literally what are you saying? "I hope you fornicate" *gasp*). Jerk, Pr***, Bast***, Bi***, idiot, etc. Those types of things are very specific, purely "angry" terms, and much less hurtful (to me anyway). But expressions of hate and ill wishes is just crossing a line.

 

Don't get me wrong I completely understand why Ryan was so upset about the ADD remark, and there are indeed other specifics things you could say to me that would hurt MORE than the things I pointed out, simply because as everyone understands they're not generally actually meant and the other things are usually known by someone intimate to be a sensitive subject and therefore are worse. So I'm not criticising that or blaming Ryan for being more hurt at that. I'm just pointing out how absurd it really is that most of us will more or less let those other things be water under the bridge (even I would if you said it once in ignorance w/o realizing that that itself is a "hot" button for me), whereas something seemingly more minor is focused upon.

 

So what was the point of my post in general? Nothing really other than that taking/using negative words and phrases casually is something that bothers me so I felt the need to rant about it a bit

 

Anyway take care and have an awesome day everyone!

 

Kevin (who, as always, got distracted quite a few times while writing this )

[LittleBuddhaTW]

However, just because his other words weren't true and were only said in anger doesn't really give him the right to say them. They were horrible things and people should think before they go flippantly saying them. Words are a very powerful weapon and shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

So ...

 

Ryan acts like an asshole to his brother (who is suffering from cancer) and Connor, tells Connor that he doesn't love him anymore (believe me, that hurts worse than any insult anyone has ever thrown at me), and then, he is faced (both figuratively and literally) with the person who assaulted and raped him and hears that his ex-boyfriend was going out with a girl ... I have a really hard time accepting that Connor didn't have a "right" to flip out a bit at Ryan.

 

In fact, I have seen Connor get criticized for an awful lot of stuff that I would never imagine criticizing him for. It's really thrown me for a loop, and I don't really understand the reactions to Connor, in general. Perhaps that's why I've been having such a tough time writing lately ...

 

LB

[annushka]

well, I agree with LittlBuddha on the Connor topic... Ryan had it coming with the way he handled the general situation in the last months and his (now ex) boyfriend... I would have been a lot less nice about it for my part. When angry, you very often end up hitting low (it means "hitting on someone's weakness" right?), a lot lower than what Connor did actually...

if that a side remark on his ADD has more impact than the real message that was sent (if it is indeed what lead Ryan to being a mess afterwards, but we can't be sure yet), that would be proof that he really did not even get the main message: that he has messed up big time and hurt Connor to the point where he can't take it anymore.

 

Respect, love and human relations aren't only about words but about actions, what you do for the poeple who are supposed to be important to you, or what you don't. I'd say Connor was great and tried to be understanding and there for others while Ryan was a big selfcentered jerk... So a few "mean" words don't weight a lot compared to the behavior shown by Ryan in the last chapters.

 

Then again, that is just my opinion...

Edited July 21, 2006 by annushka

[Boxerdude]

So ...

 

Ryan acts like an asshole to his brother (who is suffering from cancer) and Connor, tells Connor that he doesn't love him anymore (believe me, that hurts worse than any insult anyone has ever thrown at me), and then, he is faced (both figuratively and literally) with the person who assaulted and raped him and hears that his ex-boyfriend was going out with a girl ... I have a really hard time accepting that Connor didn't have a "right" to flip out a bit at Ryan.

 

In fact, I have seen Connor get criticized for an awful lot of stuff that I would never imagine criticizing him for. It's really thrown me for a loop, and I don't really understand the reactions to Connor, in general. Perhaps that's why I've been having such a tough time writing lately ...

 

LB

 

I have been trying to say the same thing LB, not sure why no one has picked up on it. Who is the real person being hurt here. I believe it is Connor.

 

I wrote my first post to this right after reading it so that i could put my emotions into words. I find it odd that no one has really responded to it. Maybe I sound like a rambling idiot, I don't know. But, the feelings were there and I felt them. I felt like I was Connor going through it.

 

I have said more than once, I know what Connor felt and he was completely justified in screaming at him. I am afraid if it would have been me, I not so sure that I would not have slugged him!! What Connor just went through, no one can understand unless you have been there! I have and he is true to life. Ryan needs to come clean and make things right with Connor, not the other way around.

 

Boxerdude.

[C James]

I do understand that these other things are said more often and people are desensitized to them, but I think this in itself is symptomatic of one of the problems with society. If you actually HATE someone and wish you'd never met them then surely this shouldn't be glossed over. Especially in the case of Connor who had a horrible life until he met Ryan. If he'd truly trade back for that and never have to meet Ryan then surely this is a very powerful insult! Then there's the whole wishing the person went to hell. Whether you believe in it or not hell is by definition the absolute most horrible thing that could happen to someone. If Connor REALLY wanted Ryan to experience unbelievable pain FOREVER, then I don't see how that's comparable to a jab about his ADD.

 

I do tend to agree with your point regarding the desensitization of society, but I can't agree with much of the rest of your premise.

 

As I see it, it doesn't matter what anyone else happens to believe, but what the person speaking (Connor in this case) believes regarding the impact and meaning of his words.

 

Also, Connor was not exactly in a calm state of mind and choosing his words with great care. He was outraged and furious and thus cannot possibly be expected to choose his words with care.

 

In fact, I have seen Connor get criticized for an awful lot of stuff that I would never imagine criticizing him for. It's really thrown me for a loop, and I don't really understand the reactions to Connor, in general. Perhaps that's why I've been having such a tough time writing lately ...

 

LB, think about it: when a group of people start talking about someone who isn't in the room, what is the most likely topic of conversation: their good points, or their bad points?

 

I'm not going to use anyone else's issues here, so I'll use my own as an example. Yes, I've criticized Connor for being ungrateful towards Maggie. I've also said I think it's understandable. BUT, understandable DOES NOT equal right! But, does this minor character flaw make Connor any less human? Of course not. EVERYONE has them. And my point is this: You have created characters that readers are regarding as REAL PEOPLE! Therefor, of course you will get many people who dislike some small aspect of the character! Simply put, it's a sign that you have succeeded!

 

You said yourself that you were trying to push the readers emotional buttons, and take them on a roller coaster ride. Well, guess what? On any good rollier coaster ride, you get some yelling and screaming! Does that mean that people are hating the ride? of course not! It means that you are succeeding!

 

When I read your above comment, especially after the one where you said you were not a good writer (HOGWASH!) I couldn't help but think of the following words that *SOMEONE* recently posted here on GA.

 

"if you need to have a cast iron Buddha statue thrown at your head to get you to wake up, just drop me a line, and I'd be happy to oblige!"

 

"And Joey ... if you don't stop beating yourself up and get some self-esteem through that thick skull of yours ... well, I have an extra special bronze Buddha statue that I'm sure I could manage to chuck in the general vicinity of your head (being extra careful not to hit the nose, of course! )."