AFriendlyFace

Well said, Tiff! I quite agree! Perhaps he's singing dark and brooding songs?

LOL, yes that's right, along with the next chapter of BMAD to beta I'll send you a dirty note about what I think of gender roles! No, I mostly agree with you, none of the circumstances preclude gender roles nor they make them inevitable. It all just depends on the couple.

For talking about boyfriends...yes, I definitely think you could talk about boyfriends comfortably with straight women. Could you talk about them with straight men? Depends on the guy (well of course it would also depend on the girl, but I think overall fewer guys would be comfortable), but would certainly think that there are some you could discuss such things with.

Hi everyone, So I read a lot of 'gay literature', and I'm not just talking about stories here on GA. Right now I'm casually reading this big book of random GLBT facts called, aptly enough "Queer Facts" It's by Michelle Baker and Stephen Tropiano, and here's a link to the book on Amazon (though I'm obviously not encouraging anyone to buy it, just citing it). Anyway one section gives facts about lesbianism in Chinese history. The following is the passage I thought it would be fun to discuss: So I found that passage rife with things I wanted to discuss. -First off, it gives no indication either way whether or not a similar institution/ceremony existed for men. By the way the book is set up and in this section, it probably wouldn't do so anyway. However, I would hazzard a guess that no such option did exist for men. Just a guess though. -Second, I found it irritating that one of the women had to take on the role of the man and be the 'husband'. -Third, why did only the couple's female friends go? What about family in general and male friends? -Fourth, why were they only allowed to adopt girls. -Fifth, based on the wording it seems likely that the couple themselves would not inherit family property. That it instead had to go to these adopted daughters. -Lastly, I do think that overall this was a good thing given the time and context! At least it gave lesbians another option! However, I still think it's a bit unfortunate (though certainly not surprising) that a regular single life - devoid of marriage to man, woman, or religion - was still not an option for these women. I was interested so I did a bit more research and found the following link: The Tradition of female-female unions That seems to be the most informative link I could find and it still didn't give that much useful, new information (except that evidently sometimes non-lesbians entered into these arrangements as well). Anyone else heard about this at all? What do you folks think about the above points? Just curious Kevin

I would definitely agree with that.

That's wonderfully put and I completely agree and can relate! That's a wonderful point, Drew! I think being gay gives me the freedom to say, do, and discuss things I couldn't/wouldn't say, do, and discuss as a straight person. I guess in many ways it goes back to the whole going outside of gender lines thing, but as a gay person I'm comfortable blending and taking the best of both traditional 'male' and traditional 'female' activities and ways of relating. For example I know I wouldn't have as close a relationship with my friends if I were a straight guy. We might still really care about each other, but I doubt we'd be as emotionally open or as affectionate. And yeah, there simply are things I can discuss with people (of any particular gender or persuasion) as a result of being gay that I probably wouldn't be comfortable discussing as a straight guy. Of course I know straight guys could do these things, but there's more social pressure not to, and even if the straight guy himself is comfortable with them it's harder to find other people who are comfortable with him behaving that way and who can/will behave in kind. I think it goes even further to 'alone stuff' too. There's a lot of activities or thoughts or things that I do by myself that I enjoy but probably wouldn't be comfortable doing as a straight guy, or would at least feel the need to hide to some extent. For example lighting candles, putting on some soothing music, taking a hot bubble bath, and sipping a glass of wine. I love doing that, it's a really pleasurable, sensual experience (I know it's not for everyone!), and I could it as a straight guy, but I'd probably be a little embarrassed about it if people found out. I think that's an excellent point too. To some extent I definitely agree that there's greater potential for you to be in tune with each other's feelings and mindset and also the whole stereotype about the relationship being more sexually satisfying because both people 'know what it's like'. My personal 'big thing' about gay relationships has always been the greater potential for true egalitarianism and a lack of sex/gender roles and expectations. On the other hand that only goes so far. Some of my feelings and thoughts ARE very different from many other guys (of course I think everyone has unique feelings and thoughts). Sometimes it's still very easy to misinterpret what someone is thinking or what their motivation is. It's also possible to be completely out of sync 'physically' in terms of what you each like and want. So I agree with you for the most part, and I definitely agree with you from a 'potential' point of view, but I think good and effective communication still trumps everything else in this regard. Just my thoughts Kevin

I'm sure that in this context you don't mean "Role Playing Game" by RPG...but I don't know what it is then. That thought hadn't occurred to me! I was most surprised that the General didn't take them all to a secure location.

Happy Birthday, Dude

First off, I wanted to let everyone know that Buy Me A Drink Chapter 2: One for Later is now up. Thanks to everyone who read and commented on chapter 1 (and thanks to everyone who only read and didn't comment, but if you get a chance please feel free to! ). If you haven't checked the story out please give it a look! Anyway, I had that second date with Ryan. It was really nice, we had coffee, went for a walk in the rain (the 'in the rain' part wasn't exactly intentional ), then we had some dinner. I still just really don't know what I want where he's concerned, but things got a little more complicated after that... After the date as I was on my way home I got a call from a friend of mine asking me to go out with them that evening. I politely declined...then changed my mind and called back. Mostly, I wasn't in the mood to go anywhere but home, but I hadn't hung out with these three friends in a while and I really like spending time with them so I thought I'd better. We had a great time too. The three of them are all good friends and we all got drunk and they started telling me how much they liked hanging out with me, and I was telling them how nifty I thought they were, and we made a bunch of other plans and they started joking how they wanted me to be the fourth member of their little group Which is quite nice, since as I said I do really like them. I felt a bit like a character out of my story actually, since we were in a gay club, I was drinking Cosmos, and people were buying me drinks. And no, I wasn't flirting with other guys or anything, I wouldn't do that even with the undefined relationship Ryan and I have, but one of my friends had a tab and was insisting, on top of which this random guy was hitting on one of them and insisted on buying us ALL drinks in an effort to impress him. Ohh, I also ran into an old friend of mine from one of my former jobs! She's a straight girl so I was a little surprised to see her, but not THAT much because of course I already knew she was gay friendly. What did confuse me was the guy she was on top of. Literally, she was riding around the place on his shoulders He obviously seemed like a boyfriend (straight guys are uncommon but not unheard of in this particular establishment), the only thing was he was NOT the boyfriend she should have had...what I mean is when we worked together several months back it was with her boyfriend too. He was a really nice guy and they had been together for along time and were really serious (engaged I thought), so I was pretty surprised to see her with someone else, but despite the general catching up we were doing it wasn't really appropriate (especially given the fact that the other guy was under her at the time) to say, "So what happened to Alex?" Even though that was the question I most WANTED to ask. Anyway, next time I run into a different former co-worker (I run into them all the time), I'll see if I can get the scoop! So fast-forward a few hours and I'm sitting in an all night diner...talking to my ex on the phone. See I was drunk like I said, and I have a tendency to send people nice texts when I'm drunk (well I do that sober sometimes too, but even more so when I'm drunk), so I sent him something to the effect of, "You're a great guy and I really hope you're happy"...if I weren't so lazy I'd just open my phone and see what it said exactly, but yeah my phone is out of arms reach Anyway, he called me as soon as I sent it and we ended up talking for a long time. It was really nice, but uhhh....I think I might have told him I still had feelings for him....and I think he might have told me the same thing...and I think we both meant it.... So now I feel like the biggest jerk on the planet. I mean it's not like we're going to get back together or anything. All the reasons we didn't work out in the first place (him still being in the closet, and us living a good 45 minutes apart) are still there...but he plans to eventually move to Houston (versus the outer metropolitan area) and I think we've both always kinda thought, "we'll try again then." ...and I think we said that last night too. Only, thankfully for my conscious I specifically remember saying, "but obviously not if stuff works out with me and Ryan". And I mean that too. There's no way I would just dump Ryan (or anyone else) to be with him if he moved. I still feel like a crap-weasel though. Anyway, Ryan and I were supposed to go bowling tonight (read be bowling right now), only I cancelled because 1) I'm really tired, and 2) I'm really overwhelmed and I need to get my head together. It didn't help that while we were talking he decided now was the ideal time to try to define our relationship. So he asked, "Are we dating?" After some consideration I responded something to the effect of, "Well we're definitely going on dates, and I'm having fun, and I like you, but I don't want to rush into anything, and I think we should just keep seeing each other for a few more weeks and see where we stand and what we want then." And he seemed pretty happy and satisfied with that answer, which is a major relief. He's going away tomorrow for a long-weekend trip with some friends, so - and I know this sounds TERRIBLE but - I won't really have to worry about it till Sunday or Monday. And now Scott and William are trying to convince me I need to go out with them tonight (they've been calling/texting the whole time I was writing this)...and I guess I will because I feel like I kinda have to...even though I really just want to stay home and goof around. Take care all and have a great night.

You certainly shouldn't be condemned for faulting something you don't like, something which you consider 'bad taste', but one could still argue that that's simply your taste. I guess I'm a bit biased, I'm prone to considering nearly everything from a shades of gray/relativist lens anyway; I think virtually nothing is "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong" in the purely objective sense. It all merely has to do with personal preferences, values, and ethics, as well as the social, political, and cultural context in which it occurs. I think this is even MORE the case with all forms of art, including literature. Our culture certainly does have ideas about what makes literature "good" or "bad", and I won't say I disagree with them (after all I live in our culture and my thinking is obviously going to be influenced by it). I may even be willing to concede that perhaps, just MAYBE, there really is an objective "good" or "bad"...well maybe. Is Hamlet really any better than an article in the Enquirer about Lindsey Lohan's rumoured lesbian affair? Almost everyone would think so...but how can we REALLY know? Undoubtedly major segments of our society will enjoy the Lohan article more. Many people will find Hamlet "dated". Etc. Does this speak more of the people than the 'literature'? Almost certainly...but isn't that rather the point? Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the majority of Nick Archer's points and I'm most assuredly have opinions, strong opinions, about what makes "good literature". However, I still think that's simply a subjective opinion rather than any kind of absolute. When you get right down to it there really is no spoon.

Yay! That sounds exciting!

...I had a headache.

Well I guess it was bound to happen eventually! I wonder how it is that I so often agree with both of you? (granted it's usually on different points though ) Goodness, Tim! You really do need to go somewhere else!

That does sound nice. Good points, Vic! Thanks for bridging the extremes, lol Well said, Viv!

Thanks Corvus! I think my 'problem' is that I really like for romantic relationships to progress slowly in terms of the emotional stuff and the time spent together (maybe I'm just slutty, but I don't mind as much if the physical stuff happens quickly ). So my idea 'relationship' would be one in which we really only see or speak with each other once or twice a week for the first month or so. After that gradually more often until you get to that intense, 'in love', I wanna be around you all the time thing. I guess it all comes down to me wanting to actually date before I get into a relationship. In that way so far so good actually. We've been texting a little bit (which is fine...ideal actually), and we have plans to meet up tomorrow night (which is 5 days since last time...so also good). So I am optimistic about everything right now -Kevin

For some odd reason I was rather thinking that Dimitri might hijack the cop car too!

Well I pretty much agree with everything said by all the previous posters. Billy, Vic, and Graeme took my best answers (gender and race/minority issues...and fashion!), but I'll throw one more onto the list: In contrast to Corvus' point about being an 'outsider' (which also has it perks) gay people simultaneously also have a built in sense of 'community'. People can easily 'bond' over the gay issue and there's all sorts of 'gay places' and 'gay resources'. This is of course mostly assuming that you have access to a major city in an at least somewhat accepting/tolerant society, but even where that doesn't exist sites and communities like GA can further fill that void It's like a friend of mine said once, "I wouldn't be worried [socially/about loneliness issues] about moving to any major city without knowing anyone. All I'd have to do is become active in the local gay scene or community." In tandem with that I'd also point out that we have a unique and rich history and culture. -Kevin

Yes

LOL, that rather reminds me of someone inquiring: 'why do you continue to work there.' '...well, the benefits are good' That actually seems like a pretty logical and natural progression to me! I'm happy for you Menzo and (just being silly not trying to jinx it or freak you out) I look forward to the day when you can say, "he went from a friend, to a friend with benefits, to a boyfriend, to a husband/life partner"

Thanks Dude! Jack Scribe actually pointed out this list about a year ago, in this thread in the Writer's Corner. The main reason I remember it is that since that time I've been thinking it would be really fun to purposely write a little satire about it. In fact I was considering the idea again just yesterday!

Hey Yukibi! It's really wonderful to have you here!! It sounds like your English is pretty good! However, if you do sincerely want us to help you, I will point out that you likely meant "it's nice 2 join every1" Adding the 't' gives it a slightly different, though somewhat humourous, inferred meaning that you probably weren't going for When you say you're trying to write in English do you mean stories or just regular forum posts? I'd be very interested in reading one of the stories! Especially if it helps shed light on your unique cultural experiences Once again welcome to the forum! Take care and have a great day! Kevin

I'm really glad your move went well!

I shall remember that, "it was too pretty not to steal" defense in case I ever get arrested for art theft. Sounds great though! I'm looking forward to reading what it reaps