Girly Boy

[Jack Scribe]

I was struck by the sincerely of the first letter from a concerned aunt, worried about her five-year old nephew. Not that she suspects the boy is gay, but that the boy's father has the same suspicions and is not very happy about it. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove. Dan Savage's reply to the letter is quite perceptive.

 

Jack

[Adrian Michaels]

First of all, I freakin' adore Dan Savage. He's incredibly funny, and give good advice.

 

Secondly, all I can say is AWWWW! I wish that woman was MY aunt! While I was never as extreme as that boy, I certainly had my moments, and I'm sure my parents realized. Someone like that in my life would have been a huge help.

 

So Kudos to her!

[Graeme]

I disagree with Dan's first comment. The child shows strong effeminate tendencies. That does not make him 99% certain he'll be gay. Yes, there is a high probability, but it is a lot lower than 99%.

 

Otherwise, I thought he gave some good answers.

[Pai-kun]

I disagree with Dan's first comment. The child shows strong effeminate tendencies. That does not make him 99% certain he'll be gay. Yes, there is a high probability, but it is a lot lower than 99%.

 

Otherwise, I thought he gave some good answers.

Agreed. I know lots of guys who played with dolls and played dress-up when they were kids and they are all straight. Sure he could be gay, but with 99% probability? Doubt it.

 

But yes, the rest of it was really nicely written. It's unusual to see such concrete advice(most is just really fuzzy cause they are all scared of getting sued if it backfires). A nice change! ^^

[Adrian Michaels]

I don't think that those figures were meant to be accurate. I think they were more for just stressing the point that it MIGHT be a possibility, but no matter what, the way the father is behaving is going to affect the relationship he has with his son.

[CarlHoliday]

This reminds me of the son of my mother's next door neighbor. Up until his early teens, he played dress-up, put on makeup, and acted about as gay as a boy can. His parents indulged him, thought it was cute, but didn't do anything to imply what he was doing was bad or abnormal.

 

Thirty years later, he has two kids, a wonderful wife, and seems quite happy being straight.

 

Carl

[Graeme]

I don't think that those figures were meant to be accurate. I think they were more for just stressing the point that it MIGHT be a possibility, but no matter what, the way the father is behaving is going to affect the relationship he has with his son.

I agree that may be, and probably was, the intention, but my first reading of it was that he's telling the person who wrote that letter that the boy is almost certainly gay, RATHER than saying that it's the father's reaction that's the problem, not any future sexuality of the child.

 

I can also see some people who don't know better using that initial statement as "proof" that a boy who is effeminate will grow up to be gay. It may be that I'm biased -- I can still remember the case in Florida not that long ago where the father KILLED the toddler because he thought he was gay... I don't want any other parents out there mixing up effeminate as a child with homosexual as an adult.

 

EDIT:

 

The link to the incident I mentioned above from two years ago: Thought Toddler Gay, Dad Kills Son

[Adrian Michaels]

oh my God... That is absolutely horrific.

 

And social services gave the child BACK?!?! *sigh*

 

I hope that guy rots in jail for what he did.

[Graeme]

According to the wikipedia page for Ronnie Paris, his father was sentenced to 30 years for second-degree murder and his mother to 5 years for culpable negligence.

 

You can see why I hate it when people try to equate effeminancy and homosexuality -- it can have some very, very nasty consequences. Certainly, a lot of effeminate men turn out to be gay or bi, but to make it out to be 99%, as the article did, gives a very wrong impression.

[AFriendlyFace]

This reminds me of the son of my mother's next door neighbor. Up until his early teens, he played dress-up, put on makeup, and acted about as gay as a boy can. His parents indulged him, thought it was cute, but didn't do anything to imply what he was doing was bad or abnormal.

 

Thirty years later, he has two kids, a wonderful wife, and seems quite happy being straight.

Carl

Well, I guess not all stories have a happy ending! (j/k )

 

The link to the incident I mentioned above from two years ago: Thought Toddler Gay, Dad Kills Son

That is horrible!

 

You can see why I hate it when people try to equate effeminancy and homosexuality -- it can have some very, very nasty consequences. Certainly, a lot of effeminate men turn out to be gay or bi, but to make it out to be 99%, as the article did, gives a very wrong impression.

Hmmm, personally I think that misses the point a little in that the behaviour is no more or less excusable regardless of whether the child is gay or simply gender atypical. It's still awful that a parent would treat their child that way, and I think the focus should be on changing that attitude and behaviour.

 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts,

take care all and have a great day!

Kevin

[Graeme]

Hmmm, personally I think that misses the point a little in that the behaviour is no more or less excusable regardless of whether the child is gay or simply gender atypical. It's still awful that a parent would treat their child that way, and I think the focus should be on changing that attitude and behaviour.

I agree, and if there wasn't a homophobic element in society I wouldn't be as upset.

 

My main problem is that it is quite possible that this THREE YEAR OLD BOY wasn't gay. Was he killed because his dad couldn't stand the idea of an effeminate son, or was he killed because his dad couldn't stand the idea of a gay son? If it is the later, and even if it wasn't in this particular case, then we need to correct the perception that effeminate equals gay. Too often I hear of people equating the two -- and then homophobically putting down the effeminate guys.

 

I dislike homophobic attitudes as much as anyone else here -- but I think it is even worse when the target of that abuse isn't homosexual in the first place! There are effeminate straight guys out that need help -- are we going to not help them just because they're "collateral damage" in the abuse/violence thrown at the gays? "Sorry, now you know what we go through," doesn't help -- at least not by much.

 

If it saves even one boy from being abused/bullied/killed, I think it's worthwhile doing. I believe it is easier to educate people that effeminate does not necessarily mean gay than to educate them that being gay is okay. If you like, it's one step along the way. It's not a perfect step, but it's a useful step.

[AFriendlyFace]

I dislike homophobic attitudes as much as anyone else here -- but I think it is even worse when the target of that abuse isn't homosexual in the first place! There are effeminate straight guys out that need help -- are we going to not help them just because they're "collateral damage" in the abuse/violence thrown at the gays? "Sorry, now you know what we go through," doesn't help -- at least not by much.

Of course I was suggesting that!

If it saves even one boy from being abused/bullied/killed, I think it's worthwhile doing. I believe it is easier to educate people that effeminate does not necessarily mean gay than to educate them that being gay is okay. If you like, it's one step along the way. It's not a perfect step, but it's a useful step.

I would disagree. I think the two are always going to be linked in the minds of the uninformed, straight majority. I think it is easier to bring about a greater acceptance for gays and effeminates than to try to differentiate the two. My gut feeling would be that even if you could teach people the difference and bring about acceptance of the effeminates you would, as a side effect, have taught acceptance of homosexuality anyway. So yes, my course of action would be to strongly lobby and educate that - gay or not - it's okay for a boy to be femme and a girl to be butch.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I really don't see the two being unlinked and I really think a better use of our time and resources is to just push for acceptance of both.

 

Take care all and have a great day

Kevin

Edited October 25, 2007 by AFriendlyFace

[Graeme]

I would disagree. I think the two are always going to be linked in the minds of the uninformed, straight majority. I think it is easier to bring about a greater acceptance for gays and effeminates than to try to differentiate the two. My gut feeling would be that even if you could teach people the difference and bring about acceptance of the effeminates you would, as a side effect, have taught acceptance of homosexuality anyway. So yes, my course of action would be to strongly lobby and educate that - gay or not - it's okay for a boy to be femme and a girl to be butch.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I really don't see the two being unlinked and I really think a better use of our time and resources is to just push for acceptance of both.

I would like to think you're right, but my gut feeling is that you're wrong. For the general population, where a lot of attitude and opinions are based on ignorance, I think you're right. However, I was thinking of the situation where people think that homosexuality is morally wrong (and those that take that belief to extremes). In this case, teaching them that effeminate doesn't necessarily mean homosexual will help keep the straight effeminate guys from mental and emotional abuse -- but it is almost impossible for many of these people to get them to change their attitude to homosexuality. For some, they will change their minds, or at least moderate their attitudes, once they get to know some homosexuals, but it is very, very difficult to get them to shift from the view that homosexuality is morally wrong.