Is it just me or...

[sumbloke]

I've eaten meat twice and since last autumn I've been eating fish/seafood. On both the meat eating occasions I was pretty yucked by it but I'm sure that was just lack of familiarity. I don't think I'll be doing it again - don't see much reason to and although Buddhism doesn't mandate vegetarianism it does recommend it (note: consult your own local Buddhist authority since traditions vary!). Eating fish and seafood has been fine. It is really just a matter of convenience/sloth - my husband eats the stuff and we can't be bothered with the admittedly minimal effort it would make to always be cooking for two different diets.

 

The issue of cruelty in farming is an odd one. Part of me just doesn't understand the passionate objection to factory farming from people who eat meat but I've learned not to be entirely dismissive. I think it is reasonable to prefer not to be involved (by paying) what you perceive as cruelty to food animals but you have to pay the piper. Looking round the supermarkets and butchers I can see the difference in cost between mass produced meat products and the free range/organic/locally produced stuff. If you have to feed your family then you may well have little choice realistically.

 

I'm much more pious and irritating about healthy food I'm afraid. I have to confess that I see people eating fast food and well...I just wonder how anyone can put that stuff in their mouths! But, a chacun son gout. Living with a French man who has been brought up with pretty exacting food standards (which despite myth is not universal in France - there are McD's all over the place) means very little processed food and shopping for fresh food almost daily but then it's no hardship and we enjoy it. But then, we're students and pretty privileged students so we have the time and the money.

 

Once you have food production for profit then it's difficult to see how you can prevent factory farming. You can regulate it but at the end of the day consumers will vote with their wallets.

Edited March 20, 2008 by sumbloke

[GaryK]

yeah, I do. I'm not spelling right apparently.

Apparently your computer is still possessed by demons from the underworld.

 

Once you have food production for profit then it's difficult to see how you can prevent factory farming. You can regulate it but at the end of the day consumers will vote with their wallets.

We can't prevent factory farming. There's too many people in the world. So it seems to be a given that we have to live with factory farming even if we don't always like it. Regulation helps a little bit. Then again look at the outbreaks of Mad Cow Disease. Shouldn't regulation have stopped that? Or the recent instances of e. coli found in various vegetables like spinach here in the US. Regulation didn't prevent that either.

 

It would be nice if the consumer could vote with their wallet. Sadly, in some cases people have to buy what they can afford. Or they simply don't know about the awful things that happen on some factory farms.

[Razor]

There's also a big difference between a potato and a cow. They don't deserve or warrant the same treatment. That's what I was trying to get at when I pointed out that there was a very big difference between what I find acceptable treatment of pigs and shellfish, vegetables and plants would be considerably below shellfish on that scale.

 

When it comes to how to treat living things I think one ought to consider such things as their degree of sentience, emotion, and sensation. The potato doesn't get scared, it doesn't hurt, and it isn't sitting there thinking about it's fate. A cow definitely gets alarmed, definitely feels pain, and there's really no telling what's going on in their brains. A pig, or dolphin or something would take all the cow stuff to a higher level, and a human being would presumably take it to the highest. I just think we ought to try to act accordingly.

 

-Kevin

 

Kevin, you have a point but I sort of have to disagree even from a biological perspective. It's weird, but to me there's just this kind of odd acceptance of death and suffering as a sad fact. I don't like it, and I would prefer us all to be happy little autotrophs, but that's not the way it is and I can't change that so I kind of think of it this way... herbivores evolved to take advantage of the autotrophic organisms, utilizing the chemical energy they produced in a different process (photosynthesis is damn near the exact reverse of cellular respiration, so it's crazy similar, just fyi). After that, carnivores evolved to take advantage of the chemical energy stored in herbivores, probably because of serious competition among herbivores for food or something. So really, any sentient being, anything we commonly think of as "alive", is just a different form of life, and I kinda have a weird thing where I wonder if we really merit anymore consideration in the grand scheme of things.

 

ANYWAY... that was a big digression.

 

Kevvers, here's the deal. If we produced food in the way you're wanting, not only would Americans have issues affording it, there would be worldwide famine. Take chicken for instance cause that's definitely the best example.

 

First, they stick them in very small spaces. That should be obvious why they do that; less space means you can pack in more chickens and make more product with less facility.

Second, they pump them so full of growth hormones that scientists are starting to wonder if that's why girls are starting their periods earlier on average. Why? They grow way faster. Like three times faster... lol. You can make waaaay more food waaaay faster this way.

Third, they pump them full of antibiotics. Why? To keep them alive. In conditions like that, disease would spread rampantly and destroy the entire population if left unchecked.

Fourth, they nip off the end of their beaks. Why? To keep them from killing other chickens. That's not mean, that's standard practice. If they wanted to do it in a really really really sweet way, then they could consider putting blinders on each and every chicken, and that would be less effective, more time consuming, and more costly

 

Ya see where I'm going with this? These aren't nice things, but they're necessary evils to provide the amount of food at the price to which we are accustomed. Not all animals are treated that way, but you'll pay more for the ones who aren't, and they're not as easily available since obviously there's not as much demand for them. Given all of that, it doesn't make much sense to rail against it without offering a viable solution, hence my hydrolyzed soy protein (beef, haha, get it?.....nvm) with the vegheads.

[Caipirinha]

Brain Curry is quite a delicacy here, Tiger. No offense...

 

 

Culture and location obviously play a big part in what is consider normal and even delicacy.

 

One of the dishes I'm most familiar with is a southern Italian dish known as "Suffrito" In it's most basic form it's the heart of a cow boiled in a tomato sauce. In it's most delicious forms it also includes the liver, lungs, and kidneys. Italians are also big consumers of Tripa (cow's stomach), Cotena (pig's skin and the fatty layer underneath), Turchinello (sheep's intestines), and Chicuori (essentially Lard/Grizzle that is used to make a bread known as pizza con chicuori).

 

Say what you will about Italians and their...interesting...eating habits, but at the very least you can't call us wasteful. I was in Italy once visiting my grandparents around the customary time to slaughter pigs. My parents had told me for years that they don't waste anything, but seeing it for yourself is a whole different experience. The only things they discarded were it's teeth and it's hair. It was pretty amazing.

[Tiger]

I've never tried crawdads. People say they're good. I have to like shell fish of the salt water variety. I would like to try them some time.

[GaryK]

I've never tried crawdads. People say they're good. I have to like shell fish of the salt water variety. I would like to try them some time.

Crawdads aren't saltwater creatures. Typically they are freshwater. Although occasionally brackish as well. They are good. Even better when someone else peels them for you. Peeling them is just about the same as peeling shrimp. Rip off the head, then slide your fingers down the body to separate the shell from the meat and remove the shell. Hold it by the tail. Dip and eat.

[S.L. Lewis]

Crawdads aren't saltwater creatures. Typically they are freshwater. Although occasionally brackish as well. They are good. Even better when someone else peels them for you. Peeling them is just about the same as peeling shrimp. Rip off the head, then slide your fingers down the body to separate the shell from the meat and remove the shell. Hold it by the tail. Dip and eat.

 

Try it in a gumbo. Make the typical shrimp gumbo, but use crawdaddies instead. Got to boil them first though, just like a lobster. It's fun to do to. They don't scream like a lobster though, which is a good thing.

Warning, never boil a lobster unless you are in a resturant or a kitchen, other wise you'll have people calling the cops on you. Did that at a crawdad/lobster boil and the cops come running around the side of the house just as the last lobster hits the water. I'm sitting there, elbow deep in crawdad bits with a piece of crawdad hanging out of my mouth, while the rest of my family freeze in what they were doing. The cops went back to the station with a big bowl of coleslaw for their troubles.

[corvus]

I think it's very telling that both Tristan and Kevin, who're -- shall we say -- less callous about animal treatment, have lived on or around farms. I've never lived on a farm. So the idea of animals being treated badly and inhumanely... it's something I can grasp intellectually, but I can't make the jump to the emotional level enough to feel strongly about it, or at least strongly enough about it to alter my eating habits. Interestingly, my dad has always advocated spending some time amongst the farmers and workers and getting a feel for that sort of thing. (He was at least partially a product of the Cultural Revolution.) He still eats meat though .

 

Tristan -- can you actually taste the difference? I'd always assumed that bad-tasting meat was due to idiotic chefs, but maybe it's because it came from animals who'd been through a concentration camp.

 

Kevin -- just so you know , I've never spent a cent on iPods or cell phones, and I literally have no new clothes. So I don't think it's just stereotypically rich people who complain about rising costs. And oh, I'm one of your favorite posters. *bows* Now go read my story. You're not allowed to disagree.

 

What's your opinion on the "healthy/organic" trend nowadays? You know, those things that have blurbs describing how happy their chickens were, and how green their valley... etc. You can tell I'm ambivalent about it. I'm wary of anything that's so marketized and, well, trendy. I think that's what people might have objections to, and not the fact that animals are being tortured and farmers are losing farmers. The trendiness seems to distract from the fundamental issues surrounding animal treatment and farmers' livelihoods. (Saying that felt a bit hypocritical, because I apparently don't really dig the fundamental issues anyway.) Of course, it's certainly more effective in getting people to buy the organic stuff. *shrug* Is it because people want to appear trendy or because they care about farmers and cows? I suppose it's the former with the latter tacked on. It's usually how things go in the world, I suppose. Got to love human nature.

[GaryK]

What's your opinion on the "healthy/organic" trend nowadays? You know, those things that have blurbs describing how happy their chickens were, and how green their valley... etc.

Last night I listened to one of my favorite weekly podcasts, net@night. One of the issues they discussed was how many of the brands we think of as being of the back to nature, organic and healthy variety are actually owned by the major food corporations.

 

Kashi = Kellog's

Celestial Seasonings = Heinz

Muir Glen Organic Tomatoes = General Mills

Boca Food Soy Burgers = Kraft

Odwalla Juices = CocaCola

Morningstar Farms = Kellog's

WestSoy = Heinz

 

Kevin -- just so you know , I've never spent a cent on iPods or cell phones, and I literally have no new clothes. So I don't think it's just stereotypically rich people who complain about rising costs. And oh, I'm one of your favorite posters. *bows* Now go read my story. You're not allowed to disagree.

Yeah, go read it. There's a link to it in my sig. And prepare to have your heart ripped out and then get sucker-punched. Still, it's well worth every minute it'll take you to read it.

Edited March 20, 2008 by GaryInMiami

[BeaStKid]

What is bluebull?

Its an antelope.. a neelgai... http://images.google.co.in/images?hl=en&am...sa=N&tab=wi

[Tiger]

Yeah, go read it. There's a link to it in my sig. And prepare to have your heart ripped out and then get sucker-punched. Still, it's well worth every minute it'll take you to read it.

I will once I finish reading the anthologies.

[Benji]

Try it in a gumbo. Make the typical shrimp gumbo, but use crawdaddies instead. Got to boil them first though, just like a lobster. It's fun to do to. They don't scream like a lobster though, which is a good thing.

Warning, never boil a lobster unless you are in a resturant or a kitchen, other wise you'll have people calling the cops on you. Did that at a crawdad/lobster boil and the cops come running around the side of the house just as the last lobster hits the water. I'm sitting there, elbow deep in crawdad bits with a piece of crawdad hanging out of my mouth, while the rest of my family freeze in what they were doing. The cops went back to the station with a big bowl of coleslaw for their troubles.

 

.......You sure your from Arizonia?? Sound just like a Louisanna girl to me, crawdads are great but almost too much work to eat. Believe it or not we have some here at Lake Mead. I've pulled up 15 pound strippers and when gutted was amazed to see crawdads

[Tiger]

.......You sure your from Arizonia?? Sound just like a Louisanna girl to me, crawdads are great but almost too much work to eat. Believe it or not we have some here at Lake Mead. I've pulled up 15 pound strippers and when gutted was amazed to see crawdads

I actually like gumbo, and I'm a Missouri boy. I won't try alligator soup, but bring on the cradwads.

[Benji]

I actually like gumbo, and I'm a Missouri boy. I won't try alligator soup, but bring on the cradwads.

 

 

......my boy (adopted kinda, long story) hails from Louisanna and makes a great gumbo.

[S.L. Lewis]

.......You sure your from Arizonia?? Sound just like a Louisanna girl to me, crawdads are great but almost too much work to eat. Believe it or not we have some here at Lake Mead. I've pulled up 15 pound strippers and when gutted was amazed to see crawdads

 

 

Yes, I'm from Arizona. Born and raised. But I do have a lot of family who come from the east and quite a few who come from Louisiana and the surrounding states.

And yes, crawdads are a lot of work, but if made correctly they are soooo good. There used be a great place to go fish for them, but now it's suggested you get them from the farm that raises them. You can fish for them personally to if you want.

Anyways, crawdads are good, even if I balk at the fact that they stare at you as you remove the head.

Okay, back on topic. Those who protest eating meat because of the way the farms treat their animals are blowing hot steam. They know that if we start doing things differently it's going to rack up the price for the meat. Thank you, but no. As it is, I get my meat from a butcher. No added salt to the meat.

[Tiger]

Those who protest eating meat because of the way the farms treat their animals are blowing hot steam. They know that if we start doing things differently it's going to rack up the price for the meat. Thank you, but no. As it is, I get my meat from a butcher. No added salt to the meat.

I know the way the kill cattle is quick and painless enough. It is certainly much more humane than how they like to kill cattle with a sword in other parts of the world.

[S.L. Lewis]

I know the way the kill cattle is quick and painless enough. It is certainly much more humane than how they like to kill cattle with a sword in other parts of the world.

 

 

Most of the way to kill animals are humane and rather painless, if not a bit gross. The way they are raised, it's not that bad. They're plumped up, raised in a clean enviroment to stop disease and then killed humanely. At least that's how it is here.

[AFriendlyFace]

I'm much more pious and irritating about healthy food I'm afraid. I have to confess that I see people eating fast food and well...I just wonder how anyone can put that stuff in their mouths! But, a chacun son gout. Living with a French man who has been brought up with pretty exacting food standards (which despite myth is not universal in France - there are McD's all over the place) means very little processed food and shopping for fresh food almost daily but then it's no hardship and we enjoy it. But then, we're students and pretty privileged students so we have the time and the money.

Amen to that!

 

Kevin, you have a point but I sort of have to disagree even from a biological perspective. It's weird, but to me there's just this kind of odd acceptance of death and suffering as a sad fact. I don't like it, and I would prefer us all to be happy little autotrophs, but that's not the way it is and I can't change that so I kind of think of it this way... herbivores evolved to take advantage of the autotrophic organisms, utilizing the chemical energy they produced in a different process (photosynthesis is damn near the exact reverse of cellular respiration, so it's crazy similar, just fyi). After that, carnivores evolved to take advantage of the chemical energy stored in herbivores, probably because of serious competition among herbivores for food or something. So really, any sentient being, anything we commonly think of as "alive", is just a different form of life, and I kinda have a weird thing where I wonder if we really merit anymore consideration in the grand scheme of things.

To me that comes down to a subjective, personal view of morality and ethics. Objectively people probably don't deserve very much special consideration, but as a person viewing other people as somehow 'special' is something which comes pretty naturally. So naturally in fact, that it probably accounts for the general (though not universal) reluctance you find in the animal kingdom to knowingly cannibalize.

 

As in most matters I'm not particularly concerned with objective things, facts, or black and white issues. They have their time and place, but I leave them for other people to consider. To me and my personal, subjective perception of things, but the more sophisticated a life form (how you define those standards are up to you) the more consideration and kindness it deserves.

 

As I said, I'm not especially concerned about converting other people to my way of thinking, this is just a little window into my morality and values.

 

 

Kevvers, here's the deal. If we produced food in the way you're wanting, not only would Americans have issues affording it, there would be worldwide famine. Take chicken for instance cause that's definitely the best example.

 

First, they stick them in very small spaces. That should be obvious why they do that; less space means you can pack in more chickens and make more product with less facility.

Second, they pump them so full of growth hormones that scientists are starting to wonder if that's why girls are starting their periods earlier on average. Why? They grow way faster. Like three times faster... lol. You can make waaaay more food waaaay faster this way.

To me this is focusing on the wrong aspect of the problem. That's like saying, "okay, we have a 5 passenger car. How can we properly accommodate 7 people?". The answer: we damn well can't! Two of them need to get out.

 

We've got too many people plain and simple. We need to focus on contraception and population control, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Certainly we can make things 'more efficient' and cope for awhile, but it's just delaying the inevitable and reducing the quality of living for people and other life forms alike - which to me is an injustice.

 

I've never tried crawdads. People say they're good. I have to like shell fish of the salt water variety. I would like to try them some time.

They're delicious, although the preferred term, at least in my neck of the world, is 'crawfish'. In fact they're so delicious - and so delightfully stupid and primitive - that they (and shrimp, lobster, crabs, clams etc.) are the few meaty/fishy creatures still 'up for grabs' on my diet. Admittedly I only shellfish about once or twice a month max, but they're delicious and I have no compunctions about it.

 

Crawdads aren't saltwater creatures. Typically they are freshwater. Although occasionally brackish as well. They are good. Even better when someone else peels them for you. Peeling them is just about the same as peeling shrimp. Rip off the head, then slide your fingers down the body to separate the shell from the meat and remove the shell. Hold it by the tail. Dip and eat.

They're not so bad to peel once you get the nack, and really that's half the fun!

 

Tristan -- can you actually taste the difference? I'd always assumed that bad-tasting meat was due to idiotic chefs, but maybe it's because it came from animals who'd been through a concentration camp.

Not to answer for Tris, but back when I ate meat I could definitely tell the difference between farm raised and free range, or whatever other terms you want you to use. There's only so much a chef can do, at some point it comes down to what they're working with.

 

Kevin -- just so you know , I've never spent a cent on iPods or cell phones, and I literally have no new clothes. So I don't think it's just stereotypically rich people who complain about rising costs. And oh, I'm one of your favorite posters. *bows* Now go read my story. You're not allowed to disagree.

You definitely are one of my favourite posters And hopefully I will get a chance to check out your work someday soon.

 

What's your opinion on the "healthy/organic" trend nowadays? You know, those things that have blurbs describing how happy their chickens were, and how green their valley... etc. You can tell I'm ambivalent about it. I'm wary of anything that's so marketized and, well, trendy.

"This chicken had such a delightfully happy life that when it came time she freely and knowingly sacrificed herself for the good of humanity"

 

I agree it's a bit ridiculous, and I've always been a "what's done is done" kind of person. It doesn't really matter what sort of life the particular chicken had, at this point in time she is dead and nothing will change that or the misery or happiness she might have experienced prior to death. So why worry about it? Why not chow down?

 

On an individual, case by case level I definitely agree with that logic, but on a more general, collective level it is easy to see that it's happening because there's a market for it, so if you do want to prevent other chickens from suffering perhaps it's wise not to eat this one.

 

In any case that's really an individual decision and what other people decide is none of my business. I'd just like to think that they were cognizant of these things.

 

Anyway, as is the case with people, the important thing is rarely how they died, but more often how they lived.

 

-Kevin

[Rabble_Rouser]

I have no problems eating animals. Growing up on a farm made me appreciate the food more. I know few people are as well cared for as the dairy cows on my brothers farm... he's even gone so far as to have water beds put in their stalls (it's like a water filled camping pad for cows). I've never hunted but I don't have a problem with it except if people are "sport" hunting where they aren't eating what they kill.

 

As for the organic food, I generally pass on it unless it looks better than the regular stuff. In Canada there is no regulation or standards so organic food is only grown with "minimal" chemicals in some cases.

 

One thing I do try to follow (I do live in Canada where it snows 5 months of the year) is the 100 mile rule. If you try to stick to products that were grown or raised within 100 miles of where you live, you tend to get fresher and better stuff and it's also better for the environment. The city I live in has a number of farmers markets and one specifically requires the vendors to only sell products following the 100 mile rule.

 

Steve

[Razor]

They're delicious, although the preferred term, at least in my neck of the world, is 'crawfish'.

 

 

Kevvers, this is another reason why I love you. You know how to properly refer to crawfish.

 

Pfft, crawdads... damned yankees...

 

Oh, and I agree with you as far as population control and contraception goes, but I don't think that it's really a viable option at the moment. Of course, contraception is getting much more popular in the developed world, especially now that families are only having one or two children very frequently. Even so, you still gotta find a way to feed what's already here, and we really are making good progress as far as that goes. The fact that the animals even survive long enough to get big enough to eat is a testament to the amount of effort that goes into the process, and then you have all those wonderful things that are becoming more and more common like hydroponic farming and things like that. I forget what it was, saw it on TV years ago, but they'd started growing things like cabbage and whatnot hydroponically, and could grow over three times the amount in half the space it took to do it the conventional way. ~shrug~ I think we're doing fairly well, all things considered.

[Benji]

Kevvers, this is another reason why I love you. You know how to properly refer to crawfish.

 

Pfft, crawdads... damned yankees...

 

 

:wacko: .......I never gave this any thought, (yankees) being from Nevada and all but I have heard both terms used crawfish and crawdads. I guess it's a southern thing!!

[Razor]

Hehe, yah, and next you silly non-Southern people will want a slice of pee-can pie. Yeah, seeing it in writing makes you rethink your pronunciation, don't it? Then I suppose you'll want to go to the store and put pop (cokes) in your cart (buggy).

[Rigel]

You know how to properly refer to crawfish.

 

Pfft, crawdads... damned yankees...

 

Nah--the REAL Yankee term would be "tiny lobstahs."

[Benji]

Hehe, yah, and next you silly non-Southern people will want a slice of pee-can pie. Yeah, seeing it in writing makes you rethink your pronunciation, don't it? Then I suppose you'll want to go to the store and put pop (cokes) in your cart (buggy).

 

 

........I hail from Southern Nevada I don't drink "pop" and have never heard the term "buggy" other than with a can of Raid.

[Benji]

Hehe, yah, and next you silly non-Southern people will want a slice of pee-can pie. Yeah, seeing it in writing makes you rethink your pronunciation, don't it? Then I suppose you'll want to go to the store and put pop (cokes) in your cart (buggy).

 

 

..........Q. What is a Yankee?

A. The same as a quickie, but a guy can do it alone.