Okay so he's good. What do you think?

[DLP]

Many of you may have been criticized by hp phan in efiction and to tell you the truth he's pretty good. So here is a site he made for writers who may not want to use in their gay fiction story:Archer's website

 

Sometimes I dislike harsh critics but hey they make part of our writing better. Right?

If you cant get throught the link here:

 

http://archerland.disbelieve.org/nonfiction/jump.htm

[AFriendlyFace]

Many of you may have been criticized by hp phan in efiction and to tell you the truth he's pretty good. So here is a site he made for writers who may not want to use in their gay fiction story:Archer's website

 

Sometimes I dislike harsh critics but hey they make part of our writing better. Right?

If you cant get throught the link here:

 

http://archerland.disbelieve.org/nonfiction/jump.htm

Thanks Dude!

 

Jack Scribe actually pointed out this list about a year ago, in this thread in the Writer's Corner. The main reason I remember it is that since that time I've been thinking it would be really fun to purposely write a little satire about it. In fact I was considering the idea again just yesterday!

[Demetz]

Sounds like a challenge.... the perfect character with dead parents, zillions in cash, a high school to bump into some random straight jock guy so hard it turns him gay and causes his cock to grow an extra couple inches - which will be important when he's shoving sand up our mc's ass with it on the beach and has a mental breakdown because he's so traumatized by the move and cries on our hero's shoulder from how horrible it is he's lost control over everything.... a smilie to reflect that he's happy now that he realizes he has some control with his nerdy boyfriend, at which point the narrative switches to him and we learn he's actually a complete moron and a general asshole (afterall, he was getting sand in his partner and didn't even care! Ouch!) followed by some more crying as nerdy boyfriend ends up in the hospital with a broken sphincter and jock-boy has to tell his parents he's gay but they're totally cool with it and we close watching the sunrise over the ocean in tampa bay.

 

 

I think that covers everything right?

 

Edit: I forgot the dialogue. I can see it now

 

"Gee golly mister it seems you've broken me bumhole"

 

"Nah duuuuude tsalright fasho"

 

"Negative sir, with all haste you must ferry me to the nearest place of hospitalization"

[Tiger]

I could probably do that, but I would rather not. I like the stuff I write, because it has a level of originality. The only thing I seem to really be guilty of is changing POV. However, I am now much more comfortable with 3rd, and I can easily write stories in 3rd.

[Tiff]

I could probably do that, but I would rather not. I like the stuff I write, because it has a level of originality. The only thing I seem to really be guilty of is changing POV. However, I am now much more comfortable with 3rd, and I can easily write stories in 3rd.

I have the same problem with changing POV. I used to be so scared of third person, but I've been practicing it a lot more these days and I'm pretty comfortable with it at this point. Occasionally when I get tired, I start inserting "I" and then it becomes a big ol' mess, but for the most part, it's consistent.

 

Btw, Demetz, I love your dialogue. Especially the last line! Sure, it wouldn't be original, but the hilarious dialogue might be able to save the story or at least give readers a huge laugh. Entertainment is good.

[corvus]

*shrug* He gave me a glowing review, I can't complain...

[Graeme]

If Nick Archer gives you a review, listen He's a good author, and very knowledgeable about writing. You don't have to agree with everything he said, but pay attention

[FrenchCanadian]

Sometimes I dislike harsh critics but hey they make part of our writing better. Right?

 

I don't really think that harsh critics makes part of my writing any better. Or at least it depends on what they're talking about. If they're pointing out a mistake or something that's not coherent, that's helping. asking for something that you'd want to see more in upcoming chapter (like more description of this or that, having more detail revealed for a character) that's fine and helpful as the author will realize that he might not have explained something as well as he thought he had and might have to address to it. What makes our writing better is writing... the more that you will write, the more you will be confidant about how you write, and you will improve yourself.

 

When it's someone that will simply tells you what parts annoys him/her... well I feel for that someone but that won't make me change what I've written or what I will in the future. When I see people saying 'this story was good, but using *this* clich

[C James]

I absolutely love this list!! I think it's gold.

 

I've violated one or two of these rules, but I'll give myself a pass on the physical description one; it was a set up. The description was actually about a car, not a person, but I did it in a way that hopefully made the reader assume it was about a person, until they got to the end of the paragraph.

 

I've goofed on the research one too; I trusted my memory when i should have double-checked. I apologized to me readers, thanked the one who pointed it out, and let it be a lesson to me; double check.

 

There are exceptions to everything. Nothing is cast in concrete. I have issues with one of the rules myself; the names-we-wish-we-had one. Those names aren't all that uncommon anymore, and in any case, I like it when an unsual name is used for effect. Graeme used "Ryhs" for a name in "HEart of the Tree", and that has to be my all-time favorite name I've seen in a story. It just fit. However, like anything, it can be overdone. My reading of that rule is "don't over-do it", so one or two unusual names would be fine. Well, that's just my opinion, anyway.

 

All in all, wonderful advice!!! I also had no idea that Nick Archer was on GA? If so, that's fantastic news! (Welcome, Nick!)

[Tiger]

I am guilty. I did the move thing. I also created superheroes. However, they are flawed. Does that still count?

[corvus]

My point is, very nice, but aside from maybe one or two obvious point, I'm in disagree with most everything that's written in the website. As a writer, I write so my story will be the best to my eyes. And I won't let anyone tell me what not to do in my story, and I will fight for every words I've put in my text. I wrote my stories the way they are and I will defend the way I chose to write my stories because I think when I write.

 

I have to disagree. Being a good author doesn't mean that you're god almighty, you might be very knowledgeable about writing but it doesn't mean that the way he/she writes it the only way and that all the authors that have a different style of writing are bad. Being a good author doesn't mean being a good reviewer. There's authors here that I simply don't like their style of writing, and for that reason I won't say that they're bad authors, nor will I tell them to stop writing the way that they do.

 

I think you've opened a very beautiful can of worms, FrenchCanadian. Let me first say that I greatly admire your spirit -- that you defend how you write, that you think when you write, etc. However, that's not enough. There's a reason there are teachers and students, masters and disciples. Those in the 'guild' guide the passionate, thinking pupils down the 'right path.' This sort of recognition, however, is getting scarce. There's no more 'tradition;' the 'guild' has dissipated. Everyone is better educated, everyone blogs, and everyone is a critic. This is cultural communism. You're encouraged to question teachers, think for yourself, etc.

 

Of course what I just said is a load of bs, even though I do think there's some merit... But it points to the problem of breaking tradition. You no longer have normative values. But if you believe that art exists, then you have to believe in the existence of the artificial and artsy, which only imitates art. The critic is therefore justified; he separates the artificial from the artistic.

 

I'm not being a cultural reactionary. Thank goodness people like Woolf and Joyce broke tradition into pieces! However, I am defending Nick Archer's right to write harsh reviews -- and not necessarily because I agree with his criticism. Actually, I'm not even sure if my logic works. I had some thoughts and I wanted to put them down. So yeah.

[DLP]

It sounded like I hurt him when he sent the review, I thought it was because he was butt hurt that I didnt get to some points in my story..haha. But now I see that he really was criticizing my writing...and when I looked at his page I was like oh...ive made many mistakes. And I actually sent him back a harsh email...before I clicked on this site...so now I feel stupid.lol.

[AFriendlyFace]

I don't really think that harsh critics makes part of my writing any better. Or at least it depends on what they're talking about. If they're pointing out a mistake or something that's not coherent, that's helping. asking for something that you'd want to see more in upcoming chapter (like more description of this or that, having more detail revealed for a character) that's fine and helpful as the author will realize that he might not have explained something as well as he thought he had and might have to address to it. What makes our writing better is writing... the more that you will write, the more you will be confidant about how you write, and you will improve yourself.

 

When it's someone that will simply tells you what parts annoys him/her... well I feel for that someone but that won't make me change what I've written or what I will in the future. When I see people saying 'this story was good, but using *this* clich

[corvus]

Put simply: there's no accounting for taste.

 

Yes, but the question is, is there such thing as good taste? There are certainly many people who enjoy tawdry, cheap romance novels. That's their taste; but I think that's bad taste. Should I be faulted for condemning such work, even though other people like it?

 

I want it to be understood that 'condemned' in this situation is with regards to literary value, not enjoyment. I kind of, sort of enjoyed 'The Da Vinci Code' even though I thought it kind of, sort of, really sucked. So yeah. My appreciation of merit and measure of enjoyment aren't strictly aligned, i.e. I'm not 100% snob.

[AFriendlyFace]

Yes, but the question is, is there such thing as good taste? There are certainly many people who enjoy tawdry, cheap romance novels. That's their taste; but I think that's bad taste. Should I be faulted for condemning such work, even though other people like it?

 

I want it to be understood that 'condemned' in this situation is with regards to literary value, not enjoyment. I kind of, sort of enjoyed 'The Da Vinci Code' even though I thought it kind of, sort of, really sucked. So yeah. My appreciation of merit and measure of enjoyment aren't strictly aligned, i.e. I'm not 100% snob.

You certainly shouldn't be condemned for faulting something you don't like, something which you consider 'bad taste', but one could still argue that that's simply your taste.

 

I guess I'm a bit biased, I'm prone to considering nearly everything from a shades of gray/relativist lens anyway; I think virtually nothing is "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong" in the purely objective sense. It all merely has to do with personal preferences, values, and ethics, as well as the social, political, and cultural context in which it occurs. I think this is even MORE the case with all forms of art, including literature.

 

Our culture certainly does have ideas about what makes literature "good" or "bad", and I won't say I disagree with them (after all I live in our culture and my thinking is obviously going to be influenced by it). I may even be willing to concede that perhaps, just MAYBE, there really is an objective "good" or "bad"...well maybe.

 

Is Hamlet really any better than an article in the Enquirer about Lindsey Lohan's rumoured lesbian affair? Almost everyone would think so...but how can we REALLY know? Undoubtedly major segments of our society will enjoy the Lohan article more. Many people will find Hamlet "dated". Etc. Does this speak more of the people than the 'literature'? Almost certainly...but isn't that rather the point?

 

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the majority of Nick Archer's points and I'm most assuredly have opinions, strong opinions, about what makes "good literature". However, I still think that's simply a subjective opinion rather than any kind of absolute. When you get right down to it there really is no spoon.

Edited May 29, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[FrenchCanadian]

Personally I think this is a good thing. There is no one way to be 'good'. It's all relative and open to subjective interpretation. What one person considers good another person might consider horrible.

 

I think most of what Hemingway wrote was utter crap, but he was very popular and successful, so obviously my opinion isn't THE WORD. Nor do I think anyone else's is.

 

Put simply: there's no accounting for taste.

-Kevin

Exactly!!! this is totally right...

 

You certainly shouldn't be condemned for faulting something you don't like, something which you consider 'bad taste', but one could still argue that that's simply your taste.

 

[...]

 

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the majority of Nick Archer's points and I'm most assuredly have opinions, strong opinions, about what makes "good literature". However, I still think that's simply a subjective opinion rather than any kind of absolute. When you get right down to it there really is no spoon.

 

Like kevin said, everyone has their opinion. that is also true when it comes to finding a type of story you like

 

yes, in the points that Nick raised on that website, I'll agree with some of them, but I won't blame an author that will use those because it's all a question of taste. That's why I don't really approve stuff like 'hey young writers, probies, here a list of what not to do'. Why? because every writing style is just as good as the other. The only difference is that there some 'style' that might be appreciated by more people than other 'style'. That doesn't make it any less valuable in term of literary.

 

Yes, but the question is, is there such thing as good taste? There are certainly many people who enjoy tawdry, cheap romance novels. That's their taste; but I think that's bad taste. Should I be faulted for condemning such work, even though other people like it?

 

I want it to be understood that 'condemned' in this situation is with regards to literary value, not enjoyment. [...]

 

There is no good taste nor bad taste actually. And, actually, I think that you simply can't condemn anything. You can say that you *personally* don't *think* this story is enjoyable for this or that reason. Everything that is well written, (meaning that hasn't grammatical mistakes every other words) has as much literary value as anything else. No one knows enough to say that story is crap. All you can say is that, you didn't like it.

[Procyon]

yes, in the points that Nick raised on that website, I'll agree with some of them, but I won't blame an author that will use those because it's all a question of taste. That's why I don't really approve stuff like 'hey young writers, probies, here a list of what not to do'. Why? because every writing style is just as good as the other. The only difference is that there some 'style' that might be appreciated by more people than other 'style'. That doesn't make it any less valuable in term of literary.

 

 

 

There is no good taste nor bad taste actually. And, actually, I think that you simply can't condemn anything. You can say that you *personally* don't *think* this story is enjoyable for this or that reason. Everything that is well written, (meaning that hasn't grammatical mistakes every other words) has as much literary value as anything else. No one knows enough to say that story is crap. All you can say is that, you didn't like it.

 

If we shouldn't tell young writers what to do and what not to do, why should we tell them how to use grammar? Sure, some of it is necessary (?) in order to be understood, but conjugating verbs, for example, isn't -- in Swedish we don't, so if anyone should feel like writing 'he do' or 'she say' that should be perfectly fine.

 

I have to say though, it'd be unlikely that I'd go on reading a text with eccentricities like that after a few paragraphs -- unless it were very well done and the author was completely in command of what she or he was doing, I'd just find it too annoying.

 

And it is the same with those other no-nos on Archer's list. Maybe some of them aren't quite as annoying as bad grammar, and some of them I might not agree with, but in most cases these rules, or recommendations, are something worth adhering to, or at least taking into consideration.

 

It's the same with everything we learn, at first we learn the rules (this goes for learning a new language, for instance, or how to swim or how to cook -- anything) and we strictly follow the rules, because we're simply not sure enough of what we're doing. Then, when we have very good command of whatever it is, we can deviate from the rules and things can still turn out well. And as much as we may dislike the thought, I think most of us here still aren't good enough writers to begin to disregard rules -- at least not too much, or too many of them.

 

And the whole one-can't-say-what-is-good-or-bad thing -- in the context of this thread, I think that is just an elaborate excuse to dislike critical reviews. Of course it's hard to take criticism, and it can be given in a number of ways -- it's definitely good to hear what people like about your stories, it gives you confidence as a writer, and you know what you should keep doing -- but being told what not to do, in the long run, is necessary too. One doesn't always have to take other people's advice, but if it makes you think about your writing, it's a good thing.

[RJ Santos]

PW, I disagree with what you said about grammar rules being similar to Nick Archer's list. They are not. Grammar rules are the technical stuff. Like in building a web page, you need to use the proper tags, or the page woudn't look like the way you want it to. That's why you would need someone who is knowledgeable in that stuff; similarly, editors, when it comes to writing.

 

There would always be one thing that a reader wouldn't like about the way you write. What if one thousand readers told you not to do one thousand different things? Would you stop doing those one thousand things to make those readers happy?

 

It doesn't matter what someone says about your writing as long as you're happy about it. I personally agree with most of Nick Archer's list, but it shouldn't rule my writing or anyone's. It is his list.

 

And I agree with FrenchCanadian. Everything's all about personal preferences. If you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong; you just don't like it.

[corvus]

And I agree with FrenchCanadian. Everything's all about personal preferences. If you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's bad or wrong; you just don't like it.

 

The problem with this statement is that it easily becomes a lame excuse for bad writing. If I like it, since I wrote it and put thought into it, is it therefore good? No. The paradigm you espouse is only consistent if you also decide to embrace anarchy and abolish notions of good / bad writing altogether. I object to that. So I must disagree.

Edited May 30, 2008 by corvus

[RJ Santos]

What is bad writing? For me, it's all about technical stuff - grammar, spelling, plot inconsistencies - if you know that you violate those, then you don't need anyone to tell you that your writing is bad. Be honest with yourself and get an editor, but don't stop writing; that's the way to learn.

 

And if writing does have rules, outside of the technical stuff, then I guess I'm embracing anarchy and abolishing notions of good/bad writing. But I consider writing an art and not something that you make rules about.

 

If a new author does use all those clich

[Tiger]

Steven, I happen to agree. I think if we all followed these ideas completely, there would not be much to write. As I said before, I have violated a few of those and probably will in the future. It is bound to happen. I vehemently disagree with the whole Phyllis thing, because I think characters need to be inherently flawed. Otherwise they become boring. Bad grammar, mechanics, and punctuation is not a good thing. I will tell anyone that it's important to have an editor and at least one beta reader. In addition, it does not to have a final edit.

[Procyon]

What is bad writing? For me, it's all about technical stuff - grammar, spelling, plot inconsistencies - if you know that you violate those, then you don't need anyone to tell you that your writing is bad. Be honest with yourself and get an editor, but don't stop writing; that's the way to learn.

 

Who said that anyone should stop writing? Of course one should always go on writing.

 

But for the other things: it bothers me a lot more if a story has purple prose, completely unrealistic characters (such as Mary Sues/Gary Stus), or just a bad plot than if it has some grammar or spelling mistakes. Grammar and spelling are superficial and as you say, any editor can help correct it. Of course one should preferably get an editor before one posts, but I can look past that kind of mistake and enjoy a good story anyway -- just look at DomLuka, his stories have both grammar and spelling mistakes in some places (probably parts that didn't get edited) -- but they're great. And that is because his writing has other qualities that are essential for a good story.

 

And if writing does have rules, outside of the technical stuff, then I guess I'm embracing anarchy and abolishing notions of good/bad writing. But I consider writing an art and not something that you make rules about.

 

Rules are always there to help, not to hinder. Many people cook without recipes, but if you've never cooked in your life, a recipe is going to be helpful, even though cooking is an art, too. Even if you're used to cooking you may need a recipe for something you've never cooked before. In the same way, rules for writing are often helpful when you're learning to write.

 

Of course one can't follow every single rule that someone cares to post on the internet -- one has to make up one's mind as to what rules to use, and it's good to discuss with other people what rules are good and what ones aren't. It's the same with cooking, in some countries you have one set of rules for that, in other countries the rules are completely different. That doesn't mean that one set of rules is wrong.

 

And I think I should define what a constructively critical review is -- it's not someone saying 'I don't like this story. It sucks.' That kind of review is completely useless. But that isn't what we're talking about here. Here, we're talking about when someone points out things that she or he thinks the author could do better, or things that he or she considers don't work in that story. Possibly things such as purple prose or Mary Sues. And though it may feel disheartening, getting a review like that may also help the author to improve her or his writing.

[corvus]

If a new author does use all those clich

[glomph]

Sounds like a challenge.... the perfect character with dead parents, zillions in cash, a high school to bump into some random straight jock guy so hard it turns him gay and causes his cock to grow an extra couple inches - which will be important when he's shoving sand up our mc's ass with it on the beach and has a mental breakdown because he's so traumatized by the move and cries on our hero's shoulder from how horrible it is he's lost control over everything.... a smilie to reflect that he's happy now that he realizes he has some control with his nerdy boyfriend

 

Throw in a New Orleans locale, a lot of smoking, playing some pool, and eating po' boys, and you can go to Nifty and see the stories of Brew Maxwell. I enjoy them. He's got his clich

[Tiff]

Archer's list is good and I wish I had laid eyes on it before I started writing, but it's never too late to improve. I mean, writing is a process and you're always getting better if you work at it. Well, now I know what things to avoid. I have violated quite a few of those guidelines/rules and while I can feel crummy about it, well, it can only go up from here.

 

On the other hand, if you do use a few of the "no-no's" that doesn't necessarily make your story crappy. If it's tied in well and works for the story, then that's that. This is just a list and doesn't have to be followed exactly. It's a great general guideline, but really, there are lots of great writers who have different ideas, styles, and ways of manipulating the scenes and plot. One author doesn't have the final say.

 

And what if a story is good overall? Doesn't the package deal mean anything? Nothing is perfect. And people do have varied preferences. It's different, but not necessarily better than the other. There are a lot of good authors and I can't get into their work even if someone paid me! Their writing is still good, but not to my liking.

 

 

Dude... when I'm singing in the shower, I'm totally singing from my heart, but that doesn't make it *good* singing. If you'd like to contest that, I'm pretty sure I can get a few of my neighbors to corroborate.

 

Dude, I thought you said you were dark and brooding? Now you're singing in the shower? Total poser, man.