The Box

[Mark Arbour]

From my part, I have been despairing over some people's ignorance here about knowledge of demographics, and ignorance about results of genealogical research.

 

Then, from such ignorance, and misguided ideas concocted from whatever, rather than from real knowledge, have come some obdurate claims from some of those people that things (which I know to be unusual, even implausible) are happening. Particularly if they can find a misappropriated, wrongly interpreted occurrence in their own family tree - which tree they do not however seem to know exhaustively enough (so, a selective sample-taking for one's purposes takes easily place)

 

It has become amply established that those some do not actually know genealogy, nor demographics, well enough.

 

I see no reason to yield to claims which are contrary to research results, and which claims by deeper analysis turn out to be unwarranted.

 

Have you Jeremy considered to respect research knowledge in these matters?

or are you obstinately going to present parts, skewed, of your only-by-half-known family tree, to justify unusual occurrences ?

 

This is one of those classic battles between empirical and anecdotal evidence, but in the end, I'm not sure your disagreements are all that substantive.

 

As for the storyline, it is possible that I sometimes stretch the limits of reality (without quite exceeding them). I think it helps make the story fun.

[methodwriter85]

This is one of those classic battles between empirical and anecdotal evidence, but in the end, I'm not sure your disagreements are all that substantive.

 

As for the storyline, it is possible that I sometimes stretch the limits of reality (without quite exceeding them). I think it helps make the story fun.

 

The problem I have with Enric is his orignal declaration that the set up of the Cramptons and Schluters having two sets of cousins that were born within a year of each other as "not plausible." Then, when presented with anecdotal evidence not just from myself but from Blue that counters the idea that it's implausible, he then switches to it being "unusual" without actually conceding that he's wrong in the idea that set-up is impossible. Nothing he's said has refuted the idea that it's impossible, just that it's highly unlikely. I'm not arguing the idea that it's not a common occurence, but he was the one who said that having two pairs of cousins so closely matched up in age was implausible. He's been wrong in that regard, and I'm calling him obdurate because he refuses to admit that his *original* assertion is wrong.

 

As someone who will fully admit fallacy if presented with evidence that counters my original assertion, I haven't seen anything from Enric that gives off my original impression that it is possible for two sets of cousins in the same family to be of the same age. It is possible. It's just not usual.

 

And wow, this is getting so off-topic. Enric, let's just shake hands and agree to disagree. I don't want this to be a debate that takes over this thread. Thanks Mark, though, for backing me up here.

 

As for Mark, yeah, stretching the limits of reality for your story have been a great bit of fun. I really do like how Claire and Billy are twins, yet Claire was fathered by J.P. while Billy was fathered by Jeff. Or Jim Crampton becoming a father at the age of 60 because he wanted to mess around with social propriety and mess with crack-whore Bitty. Not the most likely stuff, but still in the end, plausible.

[Enric]

as "not plausible."

is impossible.

Nothing he's said has refuted the idea that it's impossible, just that it's highly unlikely.

 

you seem to equate the terms 'not plausible' and 'impossible'. However, they are not synonymous.

A scarce number of things which are not plausible, are possible. It is rare, it is unusual, but such exceptions happen.

 

The term 'implausible' in a usual terminology refers to what does not conform to expected patterns of human behavior. Such things may still be theoretically possible.

Plausibility is an assessment people make on basis of their general experiences and such things. Not everything which is possible, is a part of ready experience.

 

remember an old adage that sometimes (though, I'd say, very rarely), reality is more miraculous than....

 

so, your claim about obdurate comes from your misconception of impossible being the same as not plausible. And I do not appreciate such accusation.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Enric

[methodwriter85]

Mark, thanks for posting those great pictures of those cars. They're swell.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2010 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Mark, thanks for posting those great pictures of those cars. They're swell.

 

 

 

I'm glad you liked them. I liked the one of the Chrysler Imperial...as much for the people and the house in the background as the car. Interesting to see how Chrysler marketed itself back then.

[Hermetically Sealed]

Part of the thing with all fiction is that it requires a certain amount of disbelief. Nothing, and I mean nothing, that Mark has written is all that implausible. Unlikely, sure, but this is fiction, a story designed to entertain and not exemplify the mundane.

 

As for unlikely births? I have seen just about everything. One friend had 3 babies in 10 months (twin boys, then a girl 9 months right after). I've seen many people having "twins" from two different men. It's not usual, sure, but hardly unheard of. Hell, My aunt and I are less than 10 months apart, and were raised as siblings (and fyi, my grandfather was in his 60's). My youngest nephew and her oldest girl were born within months of each other.

 

All this hangup on statistics and minute is getting a bit obtuse. If you want reality, and strict adherence to the most probable and average, read nonfiction or biography. Fiction is almost always the province of the improbable. Just enjoy the story for what it is.

[Mark Arbour]

Part of the thing with all fiction is that it requires a certain amount of disbelief. Nothing, and I mean nothing, that Mark has written is all that implausible. Unlikely, sure, but this is fiction, a story designed to entertain and not exemplify the mundane.

 

As for unlikely births? I have seen just about everything. One friend had 3 babies in 10 months (twin boys, then a girl 9 months right after). I've seen many people having "twins" from two different men. It's not usual, sure, but hardly unheard of. Hell, My aunt and I are less than 10 months apart, and were raised as siblings (and fyi, my grandfather was in his 60's). My youngest nephew and her oldest girl were born within months of each other.

 

All this hangup on statistics and minute is getting a bit obtuse. If you want reality, and strict adherence to the most probable and average, read nonfiction or biography. Fiction is almost always the province of the improbable. Just enjoy the story for what it is.

 

Very well said.

[Enric]

Part of the thing with all fiction is that it requires a certain amount of disbelief.

Fiction is almost always the province of the improbable. Just enjoy the story for what it is.

 

Nope.

I could bet that you have not published any widely-read fiction.

 

The ultimate goal of a fiction is to entertain the reader. A fiction reader attains optimum enjoyment from reading when the reader becomes so engrossed in the story as to reach an almost trance-like state (the 'readers's trance' as it is put by some)

 

That is why making or leaving glitches in the text is usually a bad idea. Among undesirable glitches, are meaningless things (the texture od the story) that are unbelievable.

 

The texture being plausible, then some really meaningful thing can be a manifestation of miracle.

 

The reader's 'trance' is -usually- best achieved by so deeply immersing the reader into the POV character that the reader experiences the events of the story as that character, instead of just riding along as a spectator.

 

You can ask yourself how well the trance is retained glitchless, if there comes some meaningless detail which the reader may start to wonder why just this is this sort of miraculous and rare occurrence.

 

Besides, a story placed to a not-so-recent past, tends to have -and is often aimed at or aimable at- plenty of such readers who enjoy a verisimilitude of the historical context. That verisimilitude is carefully achieved, does not harm those readers who are not interested in that, but is really a tool to attain those readers who belong to the niche of historical fiction (and/or alternate history).

 

[Hoskins]

Part of being a good reader of a story is using your imagination to suspend your disbelief while you read the story.

 

Not everything is or will be accurate. Because nothing is real. It doesn't HAVE to be accurate, or even believable. It just has to be part of a good story.

[Enric]

Part of being a good reader of a story is using your imagination to suspend your disbelief while you read the story.

 

 

some sarcasm: that's a recipe which is going to make you a popular and widely-read writer of stories.

 

Hoskins self-irony: there should exist requirements for readers. desirably, a competence test. nobody shoulld be allowed to become a reader, if not first pass a reader's licence examination. it is only those who hold a regularly renewed card of competence, who could be allowed to be readers of stories.

[Hermetically Sealed]

Wow, Enric, you really are an overachiever when it comes to being a self indulgent ass. I mean, talk about an elitist and belligerent mentality. Any value you might have added to this conversation was completely undone by that post.

 

You do realize that you are the only one who seems to have a problem with the story, right? You act as though Mark's stories have violated some sanctified code of historical fiction, and yet you are the lone voice crying foul. Everyone else appears to be enjoying it just fine. Indeed, no-one has mentioned a disruption of their "reader's trance" except for you. Perhaps the problem lies strictly with you and your irrational expectations.

 

You are correct that I have not been published widespread, though I have been published and well received by the company as well as the readers, no matter how minor a feat I considered it. I somewhat doubt you have, however. Nor does that seem to mean anything when the greatest producer of historical fiction tends to be women's romance novels, whose publishers routinely reject manuscripts for being "too complex for our readers interests." You seem to overstate the importance of minute and what you determine to be plausible. The actual market of literature just does not support your statements.

 

As it is, I was happy to leave this kind of petulant behavior behind me in high school. I have no interest in indulging yours any further.

[Ivy]

I personally think that the sign of a really good author is when his/her fans are willing to climb onto opposing soap boxes and debate the minutae within the work.

 

High Five Mark! Keep up the good work!

[Canuk]

Ivy, I completely agree!! while really enjoy Mark's writing, i do accept it for what it is - a novel, an elegant fiction created by an extremely talented person. the proof: we are all taking time out from RL to discuss/debate/laugh about HIS characters!

and if anyone is worried that said characters are "stranger than fiction", then, my boy, you have lead a way too sheltered life!

Edited February 8, 2010 by Canuk

[davewri]

I have a vision that Enric is actually 'Professor Whist' come to life.

 

Mark's writing is so good that his characters become real people..................

[Mark Arbour]

Alright, everyone play nice.

[sat8997]

Alright, everyone play nice.

 

OMFG!!! The universe has shifted.

[davewri]

Alright, everyone play nice.

 

Hi Mark,

Just trying to insert a bit of humor. No disrespect to anyone.

 

It is a tribute to your writing that everyone is so intrested in the tiny details. I read your stories because they are truly well written. And they do allow that brief 'trance' of getting so into a story that allows an escape from our real life.

 

I have begun reading CAP again from the beginning so I can gather details and insights I missed on first reading. Hope someday to see PDF files we can print.

 

Keep up the good writing.

 

David

[methodwriter85]

Wow, Enric, you really are an overachiever when it comes to being a self indulgent ass. I mean, talk about an elitist and belligerent mentality. Any value you might have added to this conversation was completely undone by that post.

 

You do realize that you are the only one who seems to have a problem with the story, right? You act as though Mark's stories have violated some sanctified code of historical fiction, and yet you are the lone voice crying foul. Everyone else appears to be enjoying it just fine. Indeed, no-one has mentioned a disruption of their "reader's trance" except for you. Perhaps the problem lies strictly with you and your irrational expectations.

 

THANK YOU so much for articulating exactly what was bugging me about Enric's postings. I feel like I'm being lectured at, rather than being engaged in an actual dialogue. I thought I was the only one who was getting bugged by this.

 

I have a vision that Enric is actually 'Professor Whist' come to life.

 

Mark's writing is so good that his characters become real people..................

 

LMAO. I hope you're right and Wade Danfield becomes a real person. I already lust after his real-life physical model, Nico Tortorella, but it'd be great to meet a Southern blue-blood hottie who is refined yet well versed in the ways of wacky tobbacky.

[Mark Arbour]

OMFG!!! The universe has shifted.

 

Smart ass.

[Peter321]

Of course, now you guys are doing it in the other thread, LOL. And I suspect there are some intersting things about Tonto that may cme out of The Box.

 

Ok, that's four posts; I guess I gotta go to that Personal Info thingy. Thanks, Mark!

[Tiger]

Well, the story is having a nice start. The thing I don't like is that Stefan's father appears to be 100% straight, so it looks like there's going to either be a lot of hetero sex or none at all.

[methodwriter85]

I don't think Steven is 100 percent straight- I gotta feeling that he has a thing for Aaron. I think Steven is the kind of guy that is mostly straight, but he's got a part of himself that can really fall in love with a guy. Some things tip me off- like how Steven thinks Aaron has a beautiful voice and stuff...I think he's in love with Aaron in one of those I'm--mostly-straight-but-I-really-love-my-best-friend kinda deal.

 

And I don't mind that there will be heterosexual sex in this story.

[Enric]

if a story has quite a many (unrelated) incredible happenings, then usually the impression from that story would be that it's lunatic, too much insanity.

 

many readers will have difficulty in getting in such a story, let alone living it through eyes of some protagonist.

[Hoskins]

I agree with Jeremy. Steven isn't all the way straight. I would bet that the times will prevent him from self identifying as "gay", so it's all in the closet and behind closed doors.

 

Tonto, however, definitely has a clue.

[Hoskins]

if a story has quite a many (unrelated) incredible happenings, then usually the impression from that story would be that it's lunatic, too much insanity.

 

many readers will have difficulty in getting in such a story, let alone living it through eyes of some protagonist.

 

 

Well for me, it's fun to read a story, know it's unrealistic, and enjoy it anyway.

 

We must agree to disagree, I think.