An English Teen, Circumcised in the USA...Nifty changes title.

[Lugh]

What pisses me off about Nifty is their "the author retains all rights to the story" then "we won't take it down unless you replace it". Either I retain my rights or I don't. If I do then I can request that it be removed at any time for any reason or no reason at all, and you must comply, otherwise I have given those rights to you. Personally I think Nifty breaks all kinds of copyright laws and because of the nature of the material no one quibbles. I'll get my readers elsewhere thank you.

 

Stick to your guns over the title. He is an archivist, not an editor or a publisher no matter how over inflated his ego has become.

 

Lugh

[John Doe]

What pisses me off about Nifty is their "the author retains all rights to the story" then "we won't take it down unless you replace it". Either I retain my rights or I don't. If I do then I can request that it be removed at any time for any reason or no reason at all, and you must comply, otherwise I have given those rights to you. Personally I think Nifty breaks all kinds of copyright laws and because of the nature of the material no one quibbles. I'll get my readers elsewhere thank you.

 

Stick to your guns over the title. He is an archivist, not an editor or a publisher no matter how over inflated his ego has become.

 

Lugh

 

I abosolutely agree. And like many have said Nifty is going down the drain. Most readers who read there should read elsewhere (but guess those who read there should stay there, it's the ones with intellect and curiosity for expansion of their minds that should go elsewhere). Majority of those works deals with getting their rocks off. If you are reading for that reason might as well go watch porn. It irratates me to no ends that I get readers who email me about that smut. I have stated before that I will NOT put that stuff in and don't bother to email me about that kind of crap but I still get emails about it. Then it makes sense because those readwers reflect nifty... and that's for sure as a hell not a compliment. Back to nifty... I am done with that site for the most part. Really I don't even want to post there and as a writer we should be able to pull our story from the site no matter what like Lugh has siad but the admin who runs the site thinks he is God and demands more from us writers. The hell he is and you can bet your ass an author will always retain rights to the story unless sold. He didn't give us monetary compensation, we are allowing him to post our stories for momentary reasons, and it's just that. We do not owe him any favors. I don't care how quirky he is, doesn't mean I should bend over backwards so people can steal my story.

[John Doe]

License

Legal stuff: Authors retain rights to and title to their submitted works. By submitting a work, the author grants the Nifty Archive a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, and non-cancellable license to display the work. (If this is unacceptable, please contact us to discuss your concern.)

 

Authors may license their stories to other publishers, but that does not revoke the license granted to the Nifty Archive. Authors may reclaim the license granted to Nifty by replacing a story with an equivalent story appropriate for display in the Nifty Archive, or by making a contribution to the Nifty Archive of equal value in another form.

 

The maintainers of the Archive will respect requests for changes to stories, to attribution, and/or to email addresses in the Archive by the original author of the work. Decisions to honor requests to remove a work from public display are determined on a case-by-case basis. This does not nullify, terminate, or revoke any license granted to the Nifty Archive. Updates and changes will propagate to all Nifty mirror sites within a day or two.

 

Only submit a story if you are the author or explicitly have permission from the author to submit the story for display on Nifty. Do not remove or replace another author's or poster's attribution from a story submission.

 

__________________________________________

 

 

This here is Nifty's disclaimer. This is a bunch of bull****. I have made up my mind. I will no longer post my story there. They can have the chapters I have posted there but if I can't retain my rights to my full work you can bet your ass they won't get the full work. There's a bit of contradiction in their statement. It says the license is non exclusive but also states that they have the right to maintain and leave the story up as they please... and should consider each case by case. Non exclusive is non exclusive meaning authors should be able to request their stories be taken off without any questions, ifs, ands, or buts. Yeah sounds like scam talking to me and I don't like any of that stuff.

 

I'll be sending an email out to all my fans. I'm done with that place.

[Graeme]

Non exclusive is non exclusive meaning authors should be able to request their stories be taken off without any questions, ifs, ands, or buts.

Non-exclusive means that an author is free to post the story elsewhere as well. The non-cancellable and perpetual parts are what allows Nifty to say that they won't remove a story without suitable compensation. If you post there, you still own the story, but you're not allowed to remove it or edit it without their approval.

 

Nifty serves a purpose. That purpose is not for everyone (eg. I've never posted there and while I've considered it a few times, I've always decided that my stories are not appropriate at that site). That doesn't mean that posting there is not worthwhile, but you should post there with a correct understanding of their terms and conditions.

 

I know several authors that say they get a lot more feedback from readers once they post at Nifty and that's one of the site's greatest strengths: the sheer volume of readers that go there. If that's what you are after, Nifty is a good place to post stories. If you have other goals, other places are more appropriate.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Graeme

[John Doe]

Non-exclusive means that an author is free to post the story elsewhere as well. The non-cancellable and perpetual parts are what allows Nifty to say that they won't remove a story without suitable compensation. If you post there, you still own the story, but you're not allowed to remove it or edit it without their approval.

 

Nifty serves a purpose. That purpose is not for everyone (eg. I've never posted there and while I've considered it a few times, I've always decided that my stories are not appropriate at that site). That doesn't mean that posting there is not worthwhile, but you should post there with a correct understanding of their terms and conditions.

 

I know several authors that say they get a lot more feedback from readers once they post at Nifty and that's one of the site's greatest strengths: the sheer volume of readers that go there. If that's what you are after, Nifty is a good place to post stories. If you have other goals, other places are more appropriate.

 

 

Very true and I understand that, and thanks for clarifying. It is my personal belief that an author retains all rights when concerning the online world. We are gracing them with our stories. Without us they have no stories to share. Yes anyone can write but very few of us can write well and those of us who write well care a lot more about our own stories. Stories that is ours and should be used at our discretion not theirs. Things like title changes and what not is not for them to decide. From the exchanges of conversation the moderator there wouldn't know literary work if it crash into him like the shinkansen. He'll think the smut filled crap there at Nifty is just as good (yes I'm exaggerating but I'm annoyed). But again your point is true about volume. But since I do not write for the purpose of a lot of readers, I write to get better at writing. Once I'm good and great, that in itself will lead readers over to my work. Nifty does has a lot of readers but I like GA for the more interactive forum.

[C James]

Changing the title was IMHO wrong, but I have mixed feeling about Nifty's other rules.

 

As long as they are totally upfront about the copyright issue (granting perpetual license to display) it's okay in my opinion. That way, the author can decide if they are interested or not.

 

I can understand why they have that rule; it would be a huge amount of work to have to deal with authors withdrawing or amending, etc.

 

It's not for everyone, but provided they are up front about it, IMHO, it's like any other contractual rule; if both parties agree, that's fine. If not, don't post there. But if you do post there, DO be aware of (and read!) their rules.

[Riley Jericho]

The more I think about it - and read how others think about it too - the more I think this is an important issue. As noted several times, it's not the disclaimers and (slightly dodgy) copyright and license issues. They are there up-front and can - and should - be read by any potential author. Of course, few who post there probably read such things, but that's another thing.

 

No - the thing that is wrong is the unilateral approach to changing an author's content. And a title is clearly as important a part of that content as anything written between the covers. But, it seems that for him, doing that is common practice. At one point he wrote to me and said:

 

"After maintaining the Archive for almost 20 years, a title like the one you proposed implies possible foci for the story that will attract a very narrow audience. It isn't a medical story or a pro- or anti-circumcision story or foreskin restoration. It's not about English versus USA attitudes about circumcision. I am worried the title is a distraction.

 

Authors who disagree with a title change I make usually suggest a third alternative. How about "English Teen in the USA"? Or "Circumcised in the USA"? Again, I think that including "circumcised" in the title will attract some readers, but discourage many readers who otherwise would enjoy the story."

 

So, he makes title changes at will. But look at the offering - "English Teen in the USA"? Or "Circumcised in the USA". Those sound exciting, don't they!! And, if the author doesn't like those, then Nifty suggests that they goes back to the drawing board and make a new one that he will finally accept!

 

It's total madness and worse.....but I won't write that on paper!

 

Here's what I would like to see.

 

I think this has to be challenged. Clearly there will be some people in our GA community who actually know this guy. I would even be surprised (seeing the link exchanges) if our own site admins and community leaders don't actually know him on a personal basis. And I would like somebody to ask him to actually comment on some of this and explain his thinking behind this approach that treats authors so poorly.

 

Can someone do this?

 

Riley Jericho

[Jamie de Valen]

There are many good points mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to try hard not to cover too much old ground. Mostly I guess I'll give my opinion and let it be.

 

I have no axe to grind with Nifty. It's a forum that was started for a purpose, and I think that it still addresses that original purpose.

 

It's important to remember that Nifty started in 1992.

 

When Nifty began, the internet, online posting, online serials, blogs, video and so many other things weren't what they've evolved into today. The idea of widely-disseminated gay fiction or erotic gay fiction was mostly limited to pulp books purchased in adult book stores, and the quality was pretty dreadful. The internet was a far different place. In fact some of the people now posting stories on Nifty weren't even born when the site began. It was after Nifty that many other sites came into being. Those sights were and have become more specialized, or sophisticated. It points to the fact that this type of genre has a niche and a popular one at that.

 

Nifty posts gay-themed stories that may have an erotic nature. Please take the time to open Nifty's home page and there for all to see is the title the owner of the site chose, a name that has stood since its inception: The Nifty Erotic Stories Archive of Gay Stories. The title itself says a lot. Not only GAY stories but EROTIC. Over the years many types of gay-themed stories have been posted there, but the title of the site remains the same.

 

The fact is, that unless there is something highly objectionable in a work or some great outcry by readers, the Nifty archivist generally posts what he receives. (I will address Riley's point later about a works title). It remains a forum for aspiring writers to try their hand. The fact that a hefty percentage of Nifty's stories never reach completion points to the fact that it's a place for amateur writers. And I do NOT use the term amateur pejoratively. Everyone has to start somewhere and Nifty gives aspiring writers that chance. Nifty is what it is. Its never claimed to be anything else.

 

Other sites that have followed after Nifty may be a bit more discriminating and they may have stricter guidelines. For example someone can't just pop out of the blue and tell the owner of GA that they DEMAND to be made a hosted or promising author (which is as it should be). It is up the the owner of the site to make that decision based on his criterion. Also gay fiction has certainly matured. People want to write different types of pieces and not every piece needs be erotic. In fact most of the better pieces are character or situation based without any desire to be erotic.

 

But the fact is, that 99% of the time, if someone writes gay fiction of an erotic nature they can place it on Nifty without too much difficulty or opposition. Because of that, there have been some good stories and there have been some dreadful stories posted on the site. I think of Nifty like the mass try-outs that are shown on American Idol. Anyone and everyone who thinks they're the next writing sensation can post there. But the reality is that there are more then a few who are more legends in their own mind then interesting and talented writers. Again I don't say this as a slam... EVERYONE has to start somewhere and make their share of mistakes. I've certainly made mine.

 

As to Riley's issue, which is the reason for the thread in the first place, I have to agree 100% with him. I would NOT appreciate someone changing the title of any of my works. I think long and hard about my titles. I don't just pull one off the shelf. In a recent interview Comicality gave, he mentions how he works on titles, and how they are important to him. I think that's true of most writers. That effort of title creation is just as important as the story itself. It's the author's introduction to his work... HIS work... not someone else's. Therefore if I were Riley I would be more then annoyed... actually I'd be down right angry that someone presumed to change the title of my work. If one was going through a publisher for commercial purposes I might see where an editor or publisher might suggest a new title, but hey folks we who write and post on these sites aren't doing this for commercial gain.

 

I certainly have read stories on Nifty, but I personally do not post on Nifty. I have never posted on Nifty, and I will not post on Nifty. This is not because I have anything against Nifty or the people behind it. Again I reiterate: they do preform a service. As someone else above me mentioned, if you want your work spread around, that's the place to go. I've had other writers tell me that they will get much more mail from Nifty readers than readers of other sites. If that's a consideration for a writer then Nifty might be your spot. But another consideration is that Nifty simply places stories in broad categories: Young Friends, High School, College etc. And once you are placed your spot at the top of the list quickly falls as more stories get posted. The only recourse is to keep posting to the same story to keep it afloat. But a single short story in few months time gets buried. So maybe the ONLY thing a buried story has going for it is a catchy title the AUTHOR not the archivist chose for it.

 

One of the reasons I don't post on Nifty is the fact that they won't pull a story if you request it. They state they want rights (even though they are non-exclusive they are in perpetuity). I'm not in favor of that, and so I do not post there... my choice.

 

I've been following Riley's story on GA and one day when I was looking at Nifty postings I saw something similar to his story, but with a strange title. When I opened it I realized it was Riley's story - the same one I was following. This was before he started this thread, and I myself thought it was odd that the title was different.

I don't think it was fair to make a decision to change the title of Riley's story. I also don't think it was fair to refuse to use the author's chosen title after the author himself voiced his disagreement with the decision. Had the title been offensive, or some how illegal Nifty might have had a case, but I don't see anything offensive in the story. What's more, some of the... sorry to say this here... but (trash) I've read on Nifty pales in comparison to the use of the word circumcision in a story title. I mean there are stories on Nifty that are pretty raw sometimes... I won't go into details, but there are some things that have turned my stomach and immediately caused me to stop reading a story... yet there it was for anyone to access. So what's the issue suddenly with the word circumcision. In fact some of the titles suggested to Riley were a bit offensive to me.

 

Sorry for the long post, but as a writer I take my words and works seriously. While my writing might not be the greatest in the history of the world, it is first and foremost one thing... MY writing... not someone else's. Having an editor is one thing, but having someone arbitrarily change my story... even the title is another.

 

Jamie

[Adam Phillips]

 

One of the reasons I don't post on Nifty is the fact that they won't pull a story if you request it.

 

 

To be fair, I have to add to this discussion the following: A few years back I asked the archivist to pull a story of mine because of some personal stuff I had going on. And it wasn't any serious crisis-laden thing, but he pulled it for me anyway without a quibble.

 

Several months later, I had a change of heart and I was really reluctant to ask him to re-post it, but I grabbed my package and did, and once again, I didn't get a word of complaint from him. He reposted it.

 

So, while I agree that an author should have the right to call a story what he or she wants, I wanted to make sure I shared this experience in the discussion here in the interest of fairness.

 

 

--Adam Phillips

[Lugh]

You are the ONLY person I've heard of who has had that experience. Most people, myself included, are told they must replace the story with something else. Hello! Copyright Laws! Is it mine or IS IT MINE? Sorry Nifty just pisses me off on so many levels (and no I've never had a story denied there). The fact they would change a title for no good reason just .... ARRRRGGGGHHHH.

[Jamie de Valen]

Adam,

 

It's nice to hear that you were allowed to pull a story from Nifty without any problems. I think that is as it should be. It sounds like you made a polite and reasonable request and the request was honored.

 

Unfortunately I know of others who didn't get that same treatment. Maybe they weren't as polite, or maybe they didn't state a reason, I can't begin to speculate.

 

I do actually know of one other writer who did have a story pulled, but it took a great deal of effort and the writer was left with a less than satisfactory experience. And from the story I was told, the reason for his wanting it pulled was a reasonable one.

 

But I like the inclusion of your POV, because not everything is black and white. I too believe in fairness and even handedness.

 

To cut Nifty some slack, I'm sure it's an effort to get the stories up, if hundreds of people would then start requesting to have their stories pulled, then I could foresee an impossible situation.

 

I also see no problem with Nifty or any other site rejecting a story. That is their prerogative, but I think that if they are going to accept a story they should accept it as is. If they choose not to accept a story, they should inform the author. They may or may not give a reason. But if the author chooses not to make changes a story site suggests, including changes to the title, then it should not be arbitrarily changed. The solution is simply for the site administrators/owners not to post the story in the first place and simply inform the author.

 

I do know of instances on Nifty where a writer started a story and then after a time rewrote it from the beginning and started reposting. I don't know how that issue is handled on Nifty, but I know it has happened. I'd be curious to hear from someone with that experience.

 

In Riley's case if they didn't like the title of his story all they would have had to do was inform him and give him the option of changing or not changing his title. If he chose not to change it, they simply could have informed him they wouldn't be posting it. I can imagine his dismay when he sent in a story and suddenly saw the title changed without his being informed or having been given the option to change it or leave it be. It's a bit of a courtesy thing in my opinion.

[Nicholas J. Covington]

I want to know what happens to someone who publishes a work that is on nifty. If I publish for profit at some point I don't want to have to write nifty another novel to get them to release my work. That is unreasonable. (The unlimited licensee in perpetuity is the problem.) But I can't see that is is legal by copyright laws, any lawyers out there?

[Nephylim]

I'm a lawer but unfortunately not a media lawyer.

 

However, as I understand it, the copyright always lies with the author unless specifically agreed otherwise.

 

A licence gives someone the right to use some or all of the author's rights.

 

My understanding from what I've heard is that Nifty has a licence (in perpetuity... ie forever) to display your work. That means you can't insist they take it down... ever. However just becuase they have a licence to display it doesnt mean they have the right to do anything else with it or to stop you form doing what you want with it.

 

So for example they would not be able to sell it on or grant anyone else any licences without your permission and, although you can't take it down it doesn't stop you selling it on.

 

HOWEVER. This is just my gut feeling from what I know generally about licenses and it would all depend on the precise terms of the contract you agreed to when you posted on the site.

[Nifty]

It is a good story and I wanted to post it on Nifty, but the word "circumcised" has generated heated discussion among Nifty authors and readers. I politely asked the author to modify the title to avoid problems and complaints on Nifty.

[TetRefine]

It is a good story and I wanted to post it on Nifty, but the word "circumcised" has generated heated discussion among Nifty authors and readers. I politely asked the author to modify the title to avoid problems and complaints on Nifty.

 

Seriously? A reference to circumcision generated controversy on Nifty? 90% of the stories on that site are nothing but crappy text porn.

[TrevorTime]

Seriously? A reference to circumcision generated controversy on Nifty? 90% of the stories on that site are nothing but crappy text porn.

 

Exactly. Nifty is so full of garbage stories that I can't imagine the word "circumcised" would raise any eyebrows.

 

Thank God I found this place, I have pretty much given up on the hell-hole that is Nifty.

 

 

 

[Jwolf]

(Edited to say In case anyone might get the wrong idea this was a pop at the idiots who changed the title and not a suggestion that Americans don't actually know what alchemy is )

 

 

 

Soooooo... what is alchemy? Inquiring [American] minds wanna know. In other news: Would I change the title? In short: Hell no.

[Palantir]

Lol, I think I'll probably be blown to bits for saying this - there is a lot of beat up with this topic.

 

I might be wrong but reading through the posts I understand that the Nifty Archivist changed the title without asking. Riley objected and after some discussion the story was withdrawn from Nifty.

In my view that change without discussion was not right, but after that everything went the way it should.

 

Riley didn't accept the change which is absolutely his right. The title is part of the story and hence under copyright (as long as he claimed it) and that makes it his decision and his alone to make any change.

The Nifty Archivist wanted a change and as the owner of the site he maintains the right to accept or reject any story regardless of whether it fits the submission guidelines. Whether anyone agrees with his reasons for wanting a change (or not) is irrelevant.

After some discussion both Riley and the Nifty Archivist held to their respective positions without compromise and the story was withdrawn.

Riley has his story as HIS story, no unwanted changes.

The Nifty Archivist has his archive the way he wants it.

 

The Nifty Archive is extremely different to GA with VERYdifferent purposes and an apt cliche is 'comparisons are odious'.

I would rather look at the varying benefits each offers.

 

A number of GA authors have given recognition for the part Nifty played in their development and I do likewise.

On a personal level I have to say that I've only experienced the Nifty Archivist as being helpful, friendly and respectful.

[Altimexis]

Riley, I side with Dom on this one. My first exposure to gay literature was Nifty and there remain a few outstanding authors who publish their stories on Nifty and nowhere else. It was Nifty that led me here and I still publish on Nifty for the benefit of those readers who haven't yet found GA and other quality sites. Most of what's posted there may be crap, but if quality authors don't publish on Nifty, how will their readership discover the world if quality gay fiction?

 

It was a famous British playwrite who wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." My advice would be to accept an abbreviated title for the story at Nifty and to include the rest in a subtitle at the top of each chapter. I am a man of principles, but a pragmatist. If I pulled my stories from every site that did something I didn't like, I'd have nothing published on the Internet.

[Lugh]

It is a good story and I wanted to post it on Nifty, but the word "circumcised" has generated heated discussion among Nifty authors and readers. I politely asked the author to modify the title to avoid problems and complaints on Nifty.

 

 

Oh my goodness! Let's not offend people who read porn with the use of the word circumcision. Heaven forbid people who read about tying each other up, putting people in nappies, and pissing over each other should get a little queasy over the semi-standard practice of the removal of a piece of their penis. Let's not mention the rape, torture, and brutalization of pre-pubsecent boys under the guise of "boy love"... oh yeah... circumcision is the word you want to aviod.

[Altimexis]

Oh my goodness! Let's not offend people who read porn with the use of the word circumcision. Heaven forbid people who read about tying each other up, putting people in nappies, and pissing over each other should get a little queasy over the semi-standard practice of the removal of a piece of their penis. Let's not mention the rape, torture, and brutalization of pre-pubsecent boys under the guise of "boy love"... oh yeah... circumcision is the word you want to aviod.

 

You'll get no argument from me there. I can't fathom why anyone would object to the use of the word "circumcision" in the title. Still, it would take a lot more than an abbreviated title - and we are talking about shortening it, not changing it - to get me to pull my stories from a site. If you want to see true censorship, try submitting a story with even the slightest reference of sex to Codey's World.

 

When I posted this morning, I didn't notice that this thread started in March of 2010. It took Nifty a year to respond to Riley's forum posts.

 

Now could someone please tell me what's happened to Riley Jerico? This was one of my favorite stories and now it's vanished completely from GayAuthors, as have all of Riley's stories except his excellent Anthology entry.

[TetRefine]

Oh my goodness! Let's not offend people who read porn with the use of the word circumcision. Heaven forbid people who read about tying each other up, putting people in nappies, and pissing over each other should get a little queasy over the semi-standard practice of the removal of a piece of their penis. Let's not mention the rape, torture, and brutalization of pre-pubsecent boys under the guise of "boy love"... oh yeah... circumcision is the word you want to aviod.

 

LOL, that says all anybody needs to know.

Edited March 26, 2011 by TetRefine

[TrevorTime]

Oh my goodness! Let's not offend people who read porn with the use of the word circumcision. Heaven forbid people who read about tying each other up, putting people in nappies, and pissing over each other should get a little queasy over the semi-standard practice of the removal of a piece of their penis. Let's not mention the rape, torture, and brutalization of pre-pubsecent boys under the guise of "boy love"... oh yeah... circumcision is the word you want to aviod.

 

Exactly. I'm snipped and I imagine it was done to me at 2 or 3 days old (never asked my parents about it; don't really care). I don't feel mutilated or disfigured in any way. You can't miss what you never knew you had. So even if I could wave a magic wand over my ding-dong and have my foreskin re-appear, I wouldn't do it.

 

About Riley's story, now I am curious about it, but it seems like I can't read it either here or at Nifty.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eddy]

(Clipped) Oh gees -- no pun intended!

 

You'll get no argument from me there. I can't fathom why anyone would object to the use of the word "circumcision" in the title.

 

Now could someone please tell me what's happened to Riley Jerico? This was one of my favorite stories and now it's vanished completely from GayAuthors, as have all of Riley's stories except his excellent Anthology entry.

 

The title of this story was what attracted me to the story in the first place. Circumcision is a really important topic in the US these days. I am deffenitly against the procedure. Why shouldn't this be a topic of discussion?

 

I have not read the story yet because it is not finished and am hoping Riley will complete the story at some point. I have enjoyed his writing in the past and am sure his interest in writing this story would have an interesting slant to it.

 

Please Riley, continue your story!!

Edited March 26, 2011 by Eddy

[WelshBoy]

Riley - Loving the story ..... BTW It's Jared xxx I'm sneaking back on