so long and kiss my ass

[Boy In Doubt]

Do you think that the first time I've had a run in with cops?

 

So Constance got screwed out of her prom. Sad but expected given where she lives.

 

I'm worried about police that think they are working for Hitler.

 

I'm worried about losing clients because some asshole gets an ear-full of hate in church.

 

I'm worried that someone just might shoot me in the back for kicks and it'll be just another unsolved homo-cide.

 

If that doesn't rank higher on the scales of injustice than the prom then you have your head completely up you ass.

 

Everybody has problems.

 

I'm sorry you had to go through all that and I'm sorry you have a lot to worry about in your life, but just because your situation seems worse than someone else's does not mean that you can going around making them feel like their problems don't matter. It may mean nothing to you, but going to the prom could mean the world to a teenage girl.

 

Where do you think those people who get an "ear-full of hate in church" come from? What kind of schools do you think they went to? And what about those homophobic shooters? You think they had LGBT-friendly proms in their day? Have you ever thought about how things would have turned out if they'd been taught to accept homosexuals in high school?

 

Constance's life may not have been threatened, but if her classmates grow up with the idea that what they did was okay, they'll end up being the same bigoted individuals you now fear.

[clumber]

Do you think that the first time I've had a run in with cops?

 

So Constance got screwed out of her prom. Sad but expected given where she lives.

 

I'm worried about police that think they are working for Hitler.

 

I'm worried about losing clients because some asshole gets an ear-full of hate in church.

 

I'm worried that someone just might shoot me in the back for kicks and it'll be just another unsolved homo-cide.

 

If that doesn't rank higher on the scales of injustice than the prom then you have your head completely up you ass.

 

 

 

Just because it is 'expected' doesn't mean it is OK and just because you have had problems doesn't mean that nobody else has. You seem to forget that other people's problems matter. You have shown several times through this thread that you take an incredibly selfish view of Human Rights campaigning, a prime example being:

 

"I withdraw my support of any and all gay rights causes.

 

There is nothing in it for me so f**kIT"

 

I mean, if that is your view of how Gay Rights works then I'd personally much rather you had nothing to do with it in the first place. You would give the causes a bad name.

 

What you seem to forget is that these problems - getting bullied in school or being banned from the Prom - they really do matter to the person involved. It can have a big effect on how these people will apprach similar situations in the future and to continue acting as if these instances are unimportant means that nothing will change. The bigoted opinions will remain unchallenged and nothing will happen.

 

What this situation and the coverage it has received shows is that people do care about these things. They might be small but they are hurtful and damaging and many people would rather this this hurt stops. They want others to be happy. Just because you are a sour, bitter, selfish old man who's life is in the past doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

 

Some people still understand kindness.

 

Martin

[Persinette]

Do you think that the first time I've had a run in with cops?

 

So Constance got screwed out of her prom. Sad but expected given where she lives.

 

I'm worried about police that think they are working for Hitler.

 

I'm worried about losing clients because some asshole gets an ear-full of hate in church.

 

I'm worried that someone just might shoot me in the back for kicks and it'll be just another unsolved homo-cide.

 

If that doesn't rank higher on the scales of injustice than the prom then you have your head completely up you ass.

 

Invoking the Oppression Olympics never does a cause any good, it merely leads to infighting instead of working towards the desired goal. There isn't a finite amount of anti-oppression work in the world; just because people are picking a battle you don't approve of doesn't mean you and many others can't fight for the things you believe in.

 

Also, your snide description of McMillen as a 'hot lesbian' is unpleasantly reminiscent of the way gay rights have historically meant rights for gay, white, middle-to-upper-class men, with little regard for anyone who fails to meet these lofty qualifications.

 

People are still being fairly polite about telling you that they think your behaviour is out of order. I would suggest that you quit while you are still ahead.

[JamesSavik]

Once again for those who are piling on:

 

I retract this statement and apologize for being an asshole.

[Boy In Doubt]

Once again for those who are piling on:

 

According to your quoted message you had retracted your opinion on the 11th of April. But then your post on the 23rd suggests that you don't consider the anti-gay prom to be a battle worth fighting. I got the impression that your feelings about it hadn't changed and therefore responded to your post.

 

You seem to believe that just because there are comparatively worse problems in the world, the prom issue does not "mean something". I could easily say the same thing about your problems, which I admit are worse. But hey, we can always bring up Haiti victims, the Holocaust, hungry children in Africa and slaves in the 16th century.

 

How would you like it if someone had rubbed all that in your face and told you that your problems didn't matter?

[JamesSavik]

I have apologized but I have NOT changed my mind.

 

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Trans Student Suspended from Same School in Mississippi That Canceled Prom, Later Hounded Out of Town

posted by DAN SAVAGE on THU, MAR 25, 2010 at 11:19 AM

Source Link

 

Constance McMillen wasn't the first student at Itawamba Agricultural High School to contact the ACLU this year.

 

 

Juin Baize was a student at Itawamba Agricultural

[Mark Arbour]

According to your quoted message you had retracted your opinion on the 11th of April. But then your post on the 23rd suggests that you don't consider the anti-gay prom to be a battle worth fighting. I got the impression that your feelings about it hadn't changed and therefore responded to your post.

 

You seem to believe that just because there are comparatively worse problems in the world, the prom issue does not "mean something". I could easily say the same thing about your problems, which I admit are worse. But hey, we can always bring up Haiti victims, the Holocaust, hungry children in Africa and slaves in the 16th century.

 

How would you like it if someone had rubbed all that in your face and told you that your problems didn't matter?

 

Look, the guy said he was sorry for being an asshole and retracted his statement. Further, if you check out his blog, he explains his general pissed-off mood when he wrote it. What more do you/we want? Let's accept it at face value and move on.

[Persinette]

In Mississippi many GLBT students have bigger concerns than attending the prom.

 

Like being allowed to attend public school without being suspended, expelled, harassed and run out of town.

 

Just putting things in perspective.

 

 

But you didn't mention any of that. You only mentioned your own problems and tried to rub them in the face of people who you clearly considered inferior.

 

Also, since Persinette is sitting next to me it seemed easier to just say she agrees (rather than her going to the effort of posting).

 

Martin

 

EDIT: Or, alternatively, she forgot to log out.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Persinette

[Boy In Doubt]

In Mississippi many GLBT students have bigger concerns than attending the prom.

 

Like being allowed to attend public school without being suspended, expelled, harassed and run out of town.

 

Just putting things in perspective.

 

You're missing the entire point.

 

It's not just about picking out a dress and attending the prom. The fact that a group of people had sent a lesbian and her girlfriend to a fake prom that they'd organized is, in itself, a homophobic act. It may not have been violent, it may not have run her out of town. But can you honestly tell me you'd be okay with that had you been in her place? The same type of people who harrass homosexuals in school could easily be the ones setting up a fake prom that discriminates against GLBT students.

 

Homophobia is homophobia. You don't need to see blood to be concerned.

 

Look, the guy said he was sorry for being an asshole and retracted his statement. Further, if you check out his blog, he explains his general pissed-off mood when he wrote it. What more do you/we want? Let's accept it at face value and move on.

 

Okay, moving on now.

[JamesSavik]

I live here and I know what goes on.

 

Many GLBT students are harassed out of high school. It happens all the time. It happened to friends of mine. It could have happened to me but I was stubborn (and still am).

 

It should show you what you see/hear in the media and reality of the situation are two different things.

 

Constance McMillian was a press case. She's nice, she's photogenic, she did Oprah and Ellen. She is presentable and good for ratings.

 

You didn't meet Juin Baize who is much more representative of the problems that small town GLBT young people are facing. He's not good for ratings. Seeing a trans-boy is icky and begs questions that make the viewers change the channel.

 

You DID NOT see him on Oprah or Ellen. Chances are you would have never heard of him or his case had I not posted it here.

 

In Mississippi we are FAR behind in GLBT curve- probably by about thirty years.

 

We're talking about back to basics here: we need is for our gay youth to be allowed to go to school.

 

The Prom is the icing, not the cake.

 

A great many GLBT students are GONE from Mississippi public schools well before their Proms.

[Boy In Doubt]

I live here and I know what goes on.

 

Many GLBT students are harassed out of high school. It happens all the time. It happened to friends of mine. It could have happened to me but I was stubborn (and still am).

 

It should show you what you see/hear in the media and reality of the situation are two different things.

 

Constance McMillian was a press case. She's nice, she's photogenic, she did Oprah and Ellen. She is presentable and good for ratings.

 

You didn't meet Juin Baize who is much more representative of the problems that small town GLBT young people are facing. He's not good for ratings. Seeing a trans-boy is icky and begs questions that make the viewers change the channel.

 

You DID NOT see him on Oprah or Ellen. Chances are you would have never heard of him or his case had I not posted it here.

 

In Mississippi we are FAR behind in GLBT curve- probably by about thirty years.

 

We're talking about back to basics here: we need is for our gay youth to be allowed to go to school.

 

The Prom is the icing, not the cake.

 

A great many GLBT students are GONE from Mississippi public schools well before their Proms.

 

And many years ago I came across an article about 14-year-old boys who got executed in Iran for being gay. That's worse than getting kicked out of school but that doesn't mean I gotta rub it in your face now, does it?

 

You're still missing the point about the prom thing, by the way. Even if there hadn't been a prom, the point is that Constance and her girlfriend (and the students with learning disabilities) had been disrciminated against. Getting kicked out of school, bullied, sent to a fake prom.

 

It's still homophobia.

[JamesSavik]

I could rip your head completely off and shit down your chicken neck but I don't shove that in your face either.

[Boy In Doubt]

I could rip your head completely off and shit down your chicken neck but I don't shove that in your face either.

 

Oh look, the Beast has emerged.

[Linxe Termoil]

Oh look, the Beast has emerged.

 

Dude, seriously, Shut up and stop trying to provoke him before this entire thread gets deleted. James has a good point. GLBT Students should be allowed to go to school without being harassed out of town. What his grandmother and his mom's friends did (kicking him/them out) was unacceptable, but I presume they did it for their own safety.

[Boy In Doubt]

Dude, seriously, Shut up and stop trying to provoke him before this entire thread gets deleted. James has a good point. GLBT Students should be allowed to go to school without being harassed out of town. What his grandmother and his mom's friends did (kicking him/them out) was unacceptable, but I presume they did it for their own safety.

 

I didn't say that it was okay for GLBT students to be harrassed in school and run out of town. I was making a comparison to try to get him to understand that not being able to go to prom and not being able to go to school are both problems. Period. Just because you consider one to be more serious than the other does not mean that you should be a dick about it.

 

In both cases GLBT students have been discriminated against and both acts (running someone out of town and setting up a fake prom) were homophobic. It seems to me that James would only consider the Constance situation to "mean something" if the girl had been kicked out. And he continues to suggest that it does not matter as much simply because she still has a roof over her head.

 

James, you can talk about your problems as much as you want. But people are more likely to listen when you're not taking a dump on someone else's problems.

[Cia]

Please keep the personal disagreements polite. There is no reason to be rude just because you have a difference of opinion. They are solely that, opinions, everyone has one, you can't force anyone to change theirs with rude comments you will simply make them more entrenched into their own mindset and resistant to reasoned debate.

[Hoskins]

In both cases GLBT students have been discriminated against and both acts (running someone out of town and setting up a fake prom) were homophobic. It seems to me that James would only consider the Constance situation to "mean something" if the girl had been kicked out. And he continues to suggest that it does not matter as much simply because she still has a roof over her head.

 

I can see James point here. I can also see yours. But its a matter of degree. This is not apples to apples/oranges to oranges, is it? Neither is it such a black and white situation that labeling something as "homophobic" makes the two incidents equal under the law, or morally equal. It doesn't work that way.

 

Can you see that, if Constance were to sue the school and win, her damages would be "x", and that if the TG kid were to sue the school and win, that kid deserves more than Constance? Because the TG kid, like it or not, has been damaged more than Constance and her prom date were.

 

So, while what happened to Constance and her prom date sucks green canal water, it's not in the same league of "problem" as being denied an education, being beaten, being fired from a job, etc.

 

The world is not black and white. There are different degrees of homophobia. We need to acknowledge that, and then choose our fights accordingly.

 

Yes, its important for people in schools (and their parents and/or peers) to concentrate their efforts on making their schools safer, more accepting places for young people to be themselves and to attain the same level of equality as their non-queer peers.

 

And lets be really, really clear here: An education is a right, and is required by law. A prom is not. That, in and of itself, should tell you where the priorities should be.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Hoskins

[Boy In Doubt]

I can see James point here. I can also see yours. But its a matter of degree. This is not apples to apples/oranges to oranges, is it? Neither is it such a black and white situation that labeling something as "homophobic" makes the two incidents equal under the law, or morally equal. It doesn't work that way.

 

Can you see that, if Constance were to sue the school and win, her damages would be "x", and that if the TG kid were to sue the school and win, that kid deserves more than Constance? Because the TG kid, like it or not, has been damaged more than Constance and her prom date were.

 

So, while what happened to Constance and her prom date sucks green canal water, it's not in the same league of "problem" as being denied an education, being beaten, being fired from a job, etc.

 

The world is not black and white. There are different degrees of homophobia. We need to acknowledge that, and then choose our fights accordingly.

 

Yes, its important for people in schools (and their parents and/or peers) to concentrate their efforts on making their schools safer, more accepting places for young people to be themselves and to attain the same level of equality as their non-queer peers.

 

And lets be really, really clear here: An education is a right, and is required by law. A prom is not. That, in and of itself, should tell you where the priorities should be.

 

I understand the different degrees, but James is making it seem as though people should just overlook what was done to Constance and move on. Just because the damage caused wasn't as great does not mean that the problem should be ignored.

 

Yes, an education is a right. But it isn't any better if GLBT students don't get treated fairly in school. The fake prom is a reflection of people's attitude towards the GLBT community. Basically, the message it gives out is, "You have the right to get an education, but you can't party with your peers because you're not like them."

[Mark Arbour]

Please keep the personal disagreements polite. There is no reason to be rude just because you have a difference of opinion. They are solely that, opinions, everyone has one, you can't force anyone to change theirs with rude comments you will simply make them more entrenched into their own mindset and resistant to reasoned debate.

 

Hey, is this your first moderator intervention on the forums?

 

You did it really well.

[KJames]

Hey, is this your first moderator intervention on the forums?

 

You did it really well.

 

And she did it without having to turn red...

[phana14]

Look, the guy said he was sorry for being an asshole and retracted his statement. Further, if you check out his blog, he explains his general pissed-off mood when he wrote it. What more do you/we want? Let's accept it at face value and move on.

 

 

What a beautiful and lovely day it tis. Can we not make it "was"?

[Y_B]

What a misleading thread title

[Tomas]

NECRO POST.

 

This subject was over and done with several months ago. There was no need to bring it up again.

[Y_B]

Oh the subject matter's long forgotten, I just happened to see that it was on the top of the lounge page.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Yang Bang

[phana14]

Remember what a big thing that a relatively "small" group of drag queens started at Stonewall. Where would gay rights be today if that hadn't of happened. Seems to me that this whole prom thing falls into the same "small" category.

 

It is sad that so many seem to forget what were the important issues in their lives when they were teens in high school. It certainly wasn't discrimination in the workplace or the military. It wasn't whether or not gays could get married. The "big" issues for a gay student in high school may seem to be petty, unimportant and small to those of us who have to deal with the bigoted discrimination of the adult world, but consider, fighting those petty, unimportant, small battles is really preparing those high schoolers for fighting the battles they will face as they leave school. Tell them to sit down and STFU often enough and they might not bother to get up again.

 

As for today's media. Print media sees their circulation numbers falling, broadcast news media sees their rating numbers dropping and they become desperate to stop the plunge to oblivion, so they will latch on to anything that they can sensationalize and drive it into the ground blowing it all out of proportion to the actual event. The more controversial, or the more horrendous, the more and longer they harp on it. I doubt, with few exceptions, that what some would refer to as "Journalistic Integrity" continues to exist in any great measure.

 

What this girl did may have been a small battle and will not in and of itself win the war, but every small victory is like the small chips the sculptor makes in the large block of marble to eventually expose the beautiful statue hidden within.

 

FWIW that's my $.02.

Well!

Tomas,

In MY opinion your $.02 makes a whole LOT of *sense*!

That was very well thought out and presented better than I have seen yet, although I have seen some very good ones so far.

We're dealing with a subject that is very emotional to all concerned on BOTH sides of the issues.

I just hope that in the end James and GA (that's us, right?) remain together.

I'm SOOOO glad that I'm not the cat in THIS bag!

Peace