MIllennium

[B1ue]

You guys are saps. Take a cute boy who's purely evil, have him throw in a few tears, and you all cave like a sink hole.

 

A bit late (as always), but if it makes you feel better, I didn't feel the least sorry for Brandon. If he'd been a dupe, or lied to, or thought on some level that he was doing the right thing, I might have. But he went into that with eyes wide open, and was unable to face the consequences of his actions. And that's what I find unforgivable. Yes, this does not speak well for my own moral compass, but for me the worst thing about Brandon was that he did not foresee this as a possible future. If you commit a crime, you have to prepare for the chance you might be caught.

 

I also have to wonder what exactly he thought would happen even if he wasn't caught. Ruining Stef and Brad would hardly reflect well on himself, and I can't imagine Dan and Cary were paying Brandon enough, in any currency, to make up for the experience and connections he would have made as Stef's assistant.

 

 

Catching up, I really do like the conversations Robbie and Brad are having now. Sometimes I want to yell at both of them, saying, "You ask his opinion, why are you getting mad at him for expressing it?" but on the whole I think it's going well. Well-ish. In a generally positive, open direction without exactly confirming the destination is one either wants to go. That's human, but really, truly think both guys would benefit from someone sitting them down and saying: "Brad, just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they think you're wrong. Sometimes, they just think you might be. Sometimes, they are willing to change their minds, and sometimes they'd like the opportunity to try and change yours. It never means they want you to ignore them and do whatever regardless, it always means they want you to at least acknowledge they have a right to an opinion. Maybe not a deciding vote, but an opinion." "Robbie, get over it. All of it. That might not be possible or realistic, but do what you can. Yes, part of why you forever dwell in the past is because Brad keep bringing you there, so stop letting him. Ignore his needling as much as he does yours. You've been doing so well with that, find it again. If you find you cannot ignore it, for God's sake stop whining about it. Tell him to f**k off."

 

I am impressed Robbie got through to Brad that he goes to operatic extremes. He's hardly alone there, but itdoes get in the way.

[Hoskins]

Somebody let me know when Brad stops being an asshole. I'll pick up reading where Mr passive-aggressive "I get to f**k anybody I want no matter what it does to my partner" gets off his high f**king horse. If this story truly portrayed how gay relationships worked, I'm really f**king glad I'm single.

 

And B1ue, you have it right: Somebody needs to treat Brad like the thirteen year old he is emotionally, and educate the shithead about the difference it makes when you stop using anger and hot/cold codependent control freak behavior and actually treat your partner like a goddamn person with nuanced emotions rather than just some whacked out reflection of your own stunted emotional growth.

 

At this point I want Robbie and Jeanine to leave the prick high and dry and wondering what the f**k he did wrong.

 

 

Good writing Mark, I'm completely pissed off.

 

Of course, I'm not projecting my OWN shit here, noooo

Edited September 12, 2010 by Hoskins

[methodwriter85]

Mark's stated that Brad is the most like him, personality and emotion-wise. You're totally dissing Arbour there, Hoskins.

[gjtravel2a]

The conversations we have regarding the story amaze me and keep re-confirming how different our perspectives can be after reading and seeing the same things. What we bring definitely affects our vision. As I keep reading a very powerful story on several levels, I keep coming back to the fact that Brad is human and not perfect, but definitely the more injured party. He is a strong alpha, but he is incredibly loyal and loving. A prick at times, but who isn't? If Robbie needs the whole 'operatic passive aggressive' act in order to be heard, then I truly pity Robbie. Whether straight, gay or other....that kind of communication inflicts deep trauma on a relationship and those both in as well as around it. So Brad needs some additional time to heal, Robbie is being self-centered and controling not to understand that and to demand Brad meet Robbie's timeline. This disrespects Brad's feelings and does not show respect for Brad's needs. Brad may need some adjusting in some ways, but I don't believe Robbie is being sensitive to just what he did and how it affected Brad very deeply. Like Brad, I would not be able to be seduced as easily as Robbie wishes back into trusting Robbie. To me, Robbie is so very self-centered that he still does not get how his actions affect others. This again, thanks to Mark's skill and understanding of the human psyche and excellent writing skills, makes this a study of authentic relationships/personalities/responses and not a fairytale romance novel. Thanks Mark for such authenticity.

[Mark Arbour]

A bit late (as always), but if it makes you feel better, I didn't feel the least sorry for Brandon. If he'd been a dupe, or lied to, or thought on some level that he was doing the right thing, I might have. But he went into that with eyes wide open, and was unable to face the consequences of his actions. And that's what I find unforgivable. Yes, this does not speak well for my own moral compass, but for me the worst thing about Brandon was that he did not foresee this as a possible future. If you commit a crime, you have to prepare for the chance you might be caught.

 

I also have to wonder what exactly he thought would happen even if he wasn't caught. Ruining Stef and Brad would hardly reflect well on himself, and I can't imagine Dan and Cary were paying Brandon enough, in any currency, to make up for the experience and connections he would have made as Stef's assistant.

 

 

Better late than never! It's great to have you up to speed.

 

I think that people like Brandon don't think things through. They live for the excitement of the moment. They're myopic.

 

 

Somebody let me know when Brad stops being an asshole. I'll pick up reading where Mr passive-aggressive "I get to f**k anybody I want no matter what it does to my partner" gets off his high f**king horse. If this story truly portrayed how gay relationships worked, I'm really f**king glad I'm single.

 

And B1ue, you have it right: Somebody needs to treat Brad like the thirteen year old he is emotionally, and educate the shithead about the difference it makes when you stop using anger and hot/cold codependent control freak behavior and actually treat your partner like a goddamn person with nuanced emotions rather than just some whacked out reflection of your own stunted emotional growth.

 

At this point I want Robbie and Jeanine to leave the prick high and dry and wondering what the f**k he did wrong.

 

 

Good writing Mark, I'm completely pissed off.

 

Of course, I'm not projecting my OWN shit here, noooo

 

LOL. Definitely two sides in this thing, but I think both guys are pretty damaged. You can't put too f**ked up, volatile people together and expect them to function smoothly.

 

 

Mark's stated that Brad is the most like him, personality and emotion-wise. You're totally dissing Arbour there, Hoskins.

 

I'm not perfect. Besides, Hoskins can diss me if he wants to.

 

The conversations we have regarding the story amaze me and keep re-confirming how different our perspectives can be after reading and seeing the same things. What we bring definitely affects our vision. As I keep reading a very powerful story on several levels, I keep coming back to the fact that Brad is human and not perfect, but definitely the more injured party. He is a strong alpha, but he is incredibly loyal and loving. A prick at times, but who isn't? If Robbie needs the whole 'operatic passive aggressive' act in order to be heard, then I truly pity Robbie. Whether straight, gay or other....that kind of communication inflicts deep trauma on a relationship and those both in as well as around it. So Brad needs some additional time to heal, Robbie is being self-centered and controling not to understand that and to demand Brad meet Robbie's timeline. This disrespects Brad's feelings and does not show respect for Brad's needs. Brad may need some adjusting in some ways, but I don't believe Robbie is being sensitive to just what he did and how it affected Brad very deeply. Like Brad, I would not be able to be seduced as easily as Robbie wishes back into trusting Robbie. To me, Robbie is so very self-centered that he still does not get how his actions affect others. This again, thanks to Mark's skill and understanding of the human psyche and excellent writing skills, makes this a study of authentic relationships/personalities/responses and not a fairytale romance novel. Thanks Mark for such authenticity.

 

As I see it, these guys have both hurt each other really badly. They know how good it can be when they're together, they truly to love and care about each other, but finding their way back there looks to be an insurmountable challenge. Sometimes love isn't enough.

[Canuk]

Somebody let me know when Brad stops being an asshole. I'll pick up reading where Mr passive-aggressive "I get to f**k anybody I want no matter what it does to my partner" gets off his high f**king horse. If this story truly portrayed how gay relationships worked, I'm really f**king glad I'm single.

 

And B1ue, you have it right: Somebody needs to treat Brad like the thirteen year old he is emotionally, and educate the shithead about the difference it makes when you stop using anger and hot/cold codependent control freak behavior and actually treat your partner like a goddamn person with nuanced emotions rather than just some whacked out reflection of your own stunted emotional growth.

 

At this point I want Robbie and Jeanine to leave the prick high and dry and wondering what the f**k he did wrong.

 

 

Good writing Mark, I'm completely pissed off.

 

Of course, I'm not projecting my OWN shit here, noooo

 

 

I agree; at some point my sympathiy moved from Brad to Robbie. Yep, they both have "issues", the difference now is Robbie has recognised his and is doing something about it. Brad is almost determined not to see anything, change anything, hear anything or do anything. He is regressing rapidly. Mark's alter-ego or not, it looks like he is well on his way to pissing off the kids, Jeannie AND Robbie.... especially after Robbie des the inevitable confession to the family and, as family does, it forgives and moves on and then collectively turn around to see Brad, like a shag-on-a-rock , looking self-indulgently hurt. he may end up with "sleeping partners" but few friends......

 

That I can get so riled up about someone who doesn't exist outside my laptop does imply the writer knows his stuff..... something that's not exactly breaking news

 

ok, , having put up with my drivel, you can now move on with your version!!!!

Edited September 12, 2010 by Canuk

[gjtravel2a]

Better late than never! It's great to have you up to speed.

 

I think that people like Brandon don't think things through. They live for the excitement of the moment. They're myopic.

 

 

 

 

LOL. Definitely two sides in this thing, but I think both guys are pretty damaged. You can't put too f**ked up, volatile people together and expect them to function smoothly.

 

 

 

 

I'm not perfect. Besides, Hoskins can diss me if he wants to.

 

 

 

As I see it, these guys have both hurt each other really badly. They know how good it can be when they're together, they truly to love and care about each other, but finding their way back there looks to be an insurmountable challenge. Sometimes love isn't enough.

 

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Ahhh, the Solomonaic Voice of Reason. Yes I will admit they are both hurt, but for the life of me, I can't see how their hurt is equal and that it was not initiated and exacerbated by Robbie's actions. What I will say , however, is that I am reconsidering this viewpoint and while I may or may not ever see them as equals in pain, I want to consider what is driving me to view Robbie as the 'creator and sustainer of most of their pain'. (Overstated view of Robbie for Brad is not perfect, but you get the idea ) I do realize that certain aspects of my own life are having me view things through this lense and one of the things I truly appreciate about your writing is that it is pushing me to consider my own life, actions, and events and making me consider whether or not I am being as balanced as I could in my own experience and viewpoint. Perhaps I should give certain events and people a bit more understanding? Again, a sign of good writing is often what it challenges us about ourselves. Also again, thank you for doing so!

[Mark Arbour]

I have to say that this thread has been the most fun of any we've had before. I really enjoy the viewpoints here, especially when there are different impressions of the same characters in the same story. You all are awesome!!!

[rjo]

After reading chapter 30 again, I feel I am watching a fencing match only it is with words not swords. Brad and Robbie have been doing this for more than a month. Their problem is that they are looking past each other, not at each other. They are hurting maybe more hurt than they have ever had before. They are too concerned with guilt and blame that they can't see that if they will ever rebuild their relationship it must be done together. Nothing else will work. They have a great love for each other and the sex is really great too, but if you can't get over the hurt and pain you just become bitter, lonely, sad and unhappy. I believe that love is always worth it. Both of them need to grow up and see that. I really hope they do but this tension is tiring even for the reader. If I was there I would tell them that in no uncertain words. Maybe it is too late for that. Maybe trust can not be restored. But if it can, They could rebuild a fairer better more equal relationship that would last the test of time. And let's face it would be the real happy ending.

Edited September 13, 2010 by rjo

[gjtravel2a]

After reading chapter 30 again, I feel I am watching a fencing match only it is with words not swords. Brad and Robbie have been doing this for more than a month. Their problem is that they are looking past each other, not at each other. They are hurting maybe more hurt than they have ever had before. They are too concerned with guilt and blame that they can't see that if they will ever rebuild their relationship it must be done together. Nothing else will work. They have a great love for each other and the sex is really great too, but if you can't get over the hurt and pain you just become bitter, lonely, sad and unhappy. I believe that love is always worth it. Both of them need to grow up and see that. I really hope they do but this tension is tiring even for the reader. If I was there I would tell them that in no uncertain words. Maybe it is too late for that. Maybe trust can not be restored. But if it can, They could rebuild a fairer better more equal relationship that would last the test of time. And let's face it would be the real happy ending.

 

======

 

If I may be so bold as to offer perhaps an alternative view....it has been only a month, which is not long at all considering that these two have been shaken to the core of the relationship that was the center of their universe. I think, perhaps they aren't doing to badlly in processing this potential relational debacle. Each chapter really does reveal more about them and allows us to better see (and identify with) the struggle of both of the guys that we have come to love/respect/revile and then love again....while I may still be stuck on believing that a far happier ending for both would be for them to each find someone else that can better appreciate their own skills/personalities and gifts (being a rabid Bradista, I would say this is particularly true for our boy Brad), they could still logically and believable find happieness in each others arms and other associated regions....

 

Whatever the case, this is a fascinating tale in a riviting historical time and with very powerful relational challenges.

[Canuk]

After reading chapter 30 again, I feel I am watching a fencing match only it is with words not swords. Brad and Robbie have been doing this for more than a month. Their problem is that they are looking past each other, not at each other. They are hurting maybe more hurt than they have ever had before. They are too concerned with guilt and blame that they can't see that if they will ever rebuild their relationship it must be done together. Nothing else will work. They have a great love for each other and the sex is really great too, but if you can't get over the hurt and pain you just become bitter, lonely, sad and unhappy. I believe that love is always worth it. Both of them need to grow up and see that. I really hope they do but this tension is tiring even for the reader. If I was there I would tell them that in no uncertain words. Maybe it is too late for that. Maybe trust can not be restored. But if it can, They could rebuild a fairer better more equal relationship that would last the test of time. And let's face it would be the real happy ending.

 

 

because with love and the added bonus of great sex, the rest is background. Sure, Robbie f***ked up, and compounded it in ways he initially didn't understand. Brad too f**cked up, but they both now need to put it behind them. Brad's need to "work it out of his system" verges on childishness. Relationships need to be worked on All The Time, and the more you put in the more you get out.

 

Mark , you really are a clever bastard; I don't get this involved with ANYTHING apart from my own boy and that's a little different!

 

Great writing. I'll calm down now. Just get someone to smack some sense into Brad (and Robbie). Now.

[Hoskins]

Mark's stated that Brad is the most like him, personality and emotion-wise. You're totally dissing Arbour there, Hoskins.

 

NAAH, he can take it.

 

Brad's a made up character, and while the character may share some traits with Mark, that doesn't mean Mark would ACT on them. Not in real life. Brad's a dick. Mark's not.

[tophertemplar]

I'm so glad I finally found my way here from the Yahoo Group. I've said it before, Mark, but I love all of your writing so much. It's nice to have a place to go and discuss it with other people who enjoy your writing too!

 

The last few chapters of dialogue between Robbie and Brad have been quite eye opening, in my mind. Here I am, thinking that Robbie is just another guy who can't keep it in his pants and, finally, we have him airing his actual issues with Brad and being honest about what his overall "plan" (such as it was...I thought it was a pretty crappy plan, thinking Brad would ever go for him having a boy on the side to make him feel "macho".). While I'm happy it's all coming out, I am continually shocked by how thick Robbie is being with all of this. This whole "I've apologized, I don't have to feel guilty" is absolutely infuriating...he's the one who started all this crap, he should continue to feel guilty. Period. If Brad wanted to rub it in for a while, I think he'd be justified. The fact that Brad is saying he doesn't want to do that, in my mind, makes him more forgiving that I would probably be.

 

I know you like happy endings, Mark, but I'm really thinking a happy ending here might involve Brad shacking up with Max and Cody and leaving Robbie to search out twinks to satisfy his need to be "the Man". Screw him!!!

[gjtravel2a]

I'm so glad I finally found my way here from the Yahoo Group. I've said it before, Mark, but I love all of your writing so much. It's nice to have a place to go and discuss it with other people who enjoy your writing too!

 

The last few chapters of dialogue between Robbie and Brad have been quite eye opening, in my mind. Here I am, thinking that Robbie is just another guy who can't keep it in his pants and, finally, we have him airing his actual issues with Brad and being honest about what his overall "plan" (such as it was...I thought it was a pretty crappy plan, thinking Brad would ever go for him having a boy on the side to make him feel "macho".). While I'm happy it's all coming out, I am continually shocked by how thick Robbie is being with all of this. This whole "I've apologized, I don't have to feel guilty" is absolutely infuriating...he's the one who started all this crap, he should continue to feel guilty. Period. If Brad wanted to rub it in for a while, I think he'd be justified. The fact that Brad is saying he doesn't want to do that, in my mind, makes him more forgiving that I would probably be.

 

I know you like happy endings, Mark, but I'm really thinking a happy ending here might involve Brad shacking up with Max and Cody and leaving Robbie to search out twinks to satisfy his need to be "the Man". Screw him!!!

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

++++Amen.......Spoken like a true and wise "Bradista"

[Westie]

Brad's a dick. Mark's not.

Yeah, but he can be a pr*ck at times

 

Case in point - I dont like the direction this seems to be heading in. For some reason Im pretty "emotionally" vested in these characters and their relationship - I even had dreams (nightmares) about it. These are my idealised couple, and although they have their problems, they always work them through. But now I fear that Mark is taking them beyond the point of redemption - past the point of no return. It quite worrying for me :wacko:

 

I mean... I am ACTUALLY worked up about this - I can't believe it! GRRRR

 

See this is the true mark of Mr Arbour's talent - he draws you in and makes you give a damn.

 

West

[Caedus]

Mark I definitely have to give you props for how your handling this story. There are few stories that make me really wish I could be there to beat some sense into the main characters( even if I'm 9 y.o. at the time). I was originally sold on Brad being the "wronged victim", so if was easy to be in his corner and give Robbie crap for being self-centered and dense. These last few chapters have forced me to alter that opinion, making me sometimes think that these guys may not have aged much emotionally. If Brad wants to continue maintaining his non-monagamous relationships, he should have every right to do so. But I get a little irritated when he uses these BS excuses for why he does so! Brad gives Robbie s**t about how he's concerned about Robbie falling for the guys he'll sleep with and how he we can't trust him, when Brad isn't much different. Does he really believe the level of emotional attachment he has for the guys on the side is really healthy to a primary relationship? Like Brad, Robbie screwed up and would for the longest time speak to Brad without understanding his feelings. I'm glad that Robbie was able to be blunt and express his true concerns with the relationships, but still manges to get dragged into the "blame/victim game" leading to more b***hing and whining from Robbie, something really unattractive for his character. He needs to resist that temptaition go get into that no win situation, while still being aware of Brad's feelings.

 

That whole drama is starting to get tiring to read, so I'm glad were getting more into the corporate intrigue with Amphion/Omega!

 

P.S. Maybe it's my southern upringing, but when I read about Will "All but disregarding Jeanine", I could not help but think about how I would've become real familar with my dad's belt if I was as disrespectful to my mom as Will has apparently been to Jeanine. Brad seems like a good parent, despite his flaws. I just wonder how (or if) he's going to handle Will, especially since he's partially to blame for Will's behavior.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Caedus

[gjtravel2a]

It surprise me that several people would assume that after his heart is ripped out and the foundation of his world is shaken to its very core, as I believe Brad's was rather suddenly by Robbie, that Brad could/would/should just jump right back into the relationship with little pause and without much questioning. My own experience is such that when traumatic events occur, it takes some time to analyze what one actually feels/needs/and how to move forward. Seems to me, several have dismissed Brad's caution (whether the small amount of processing time thus far or the fact that as a very sexual being he is processing his feelings through some safe sexual relationships) as a sign of 'Brad's immaturity'. My own view, which could be mistaken, is just the opposite. Seems to me that moving slowly and deeply analyzing his feelings/needs is more a sign of maturity on Brad's part and if they do get back together, it will be what helps keep this from happening yet again. Both boys have a lot to work through before they can move beyond the 'want to be together' and into a 'healthy being together'. Sure they love each other and both, on some deep level, have a desire to be back to the security they once felt, however, with the large issues between them and the trauma they have just experienced, just 'wanting' it is not enough. I believe Robbie loves and wants to be back with Brad, but I don't believe even he is ready to fully commit and that the questioning/pushing/exploring on the part of Brad and his reticence to just blythly accept Robbie's words is going to help both of them either in this relationship of if they must, in a relationship with someone else. Give the boys some space and Mark the time to continue to authentically explore these issues as he does so brilliantly. I believe it is worth the ride!

 

 

[methodwriter85]

P.S. Maybe it's my southern upringing, but when I read about I could not help but think about how I would get real familar with my dads belt if I was as disrespectful to my mom as Will has apparently been to Jeanine. Brad seems like a good parent, despite his flaws. I just wonder how (or if) he's going to handle Will, especially since he's partially to blame for Will's behavior.

 

I'm getting the distinct feeling that Will and JJ aren't going to be as low-maintainance as Darius was for their teenage years.

[Caedus]

I'm getting the distinct feeling that Will and JJ aren't going to be as low-maintainance as Darius was for their teenage years.

 

Is it just me or did JJ seem a little prissy at times during Bloodlines?

Edited September 14, 2010 by Caedus

[Caedus]

Darius seems really cool and laid back when he's not on the prowl for girls. JJ and Will's potential high-maintainance would be a good source of entertainment for readers in the future.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Caedus

[methodwriter85]

Is it just me or did JJ seem a little prissy at times during Bloodlines?

 

No, it definitely wasn't you. JJ seemed a little prissy to me as well. JJ is actually pretty similiar to my personality type- I'm a pretty cheerful and resillient guy, but JJ seemed a little prissier than I was at his age. I think we both have not taking school seriously in common, though.

 

Darius seems really cool and laid back when he's not on the prowl for girls. JJ and Will's potential high-maintainance would be a good source of entertainment for readers in the future.

Right. Mark can't really use the angst of coming out or a first love for when he gets around to making Will a lead, because Will's already dealt with all that at the age of 13. He's gotta come up with other ways of making Will and JJ entertaining and captivating when it comes time for "Malibu High Circa 2004".

Edited September 14, 2010 by methodwriter85

[Caedus]

Thats right your Mark's muse! So in your opinion, what do you think will happen when the boys start to deal with adolescence in the 21 century? Would you want to go back to HS if it was from JJ or Will's POV?

[gjtravel2a]

Great transitional feel to this chapter, though really wondering about what is on Robbie's mind for dinner. Nice movement in the various relationships and deepening our understanding of the kids. Also nice to see Brad trying to put his new insights into play in his relationships, but it is funny how upset he gets when he is not the first to know something....

[mmike1969]

RE: Ch 31

 

Wow, it's going to suck being JJ... Both his mom and his coach living in the house. He's not going to be getting away with nothing!

 

And yes, Brad, you ARE a domineering a-hole! I've always thought that since Be Rad... Of course Robbie knows more about Jeanine then YOU do Brad, so why are you mad about it? At the same time, Robbie is being a real bitch and even I am losing sympathy for him too.

 

Max and Father Tim? :wacko: Well, Okay... That solves the problem if Lark shows up to surf and Max is there...

[Caedus]

The physics professor and the clergyman? That's almost as surprising as Jeanine and Tiffany getting together, though it may not be so bad for JJ since he seemed to really like Tiffany. It almost makes Matt and Darius hitting on her even more hilarious in Bloodlines. Brad and Robbie need to have more couples sessions, and Brad should seriously consider doing some one on one appointments with David. 31 was a good chapter, though I wonder what will happen at this dinner. I really hope they can go 3 seconds without pissing each other off. Anyone wanna make a bet?