MIllennium

[Caedus]

RE: Chap 32

 

 

One thing I've started to enjoy about Mark's writing is how vivid the characters and their emotions are for the readers, making it really easy to slip in and feel involved in the story.

 

With this chapter I'm not really sure what I should be feeling, even though events seem to me moving forward. Are the recent developments good or bad news in the long for Robbie and Brad?? At least they've finally reached an understanding

 

As for JP & Nick's plans for Claremont's revitilization, I'm knda curious to see what happens next with that. The new laws may make things easier with getting support and tolerance from the citizens, but there are still potential consequences for the poor and working class in East Claremont.

[Mark Arbour]

RE: Chap 32

 

 

One thing I've started to enjoy about Mark's writing is how vivid the characters and their emotions are for the readers, making it really easy to slip in and feel involved in the story.

 

With this chapter I'm not really sure what I should be feeling, even though events seem to me moving forward. Are the recent developments good or bad news in the long for Robbie and Brad?? At least they've finally reached an understanding

 

As for JP & Nick's plans for Claremont's revitilization, I'm knda curious to see what happens next with that. The new laws may make things easier with getting support and tolerance from the citizens, but there are still potential consequences for the poor and working class in East Claremont.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

How should you feel after reading this chapter? Probably relieved because:

 

1. Both of these drama queens are starting to think without letting their emotional hot-buttons piss each other off and guide them into bad decisions.

2. They have been estranged, where you tend to see the bad things in other people. Now they're starting to remember the good things.

3. Having this kind of calm and loving demeanor is the only way they're going to build their relationship into something worth being in (or reading about).

4. When they calm down and act like normal people, both of their good qualities shine through.

5. They know each other so well, that they are experts at both pissing each other off and making each other happy. It was nice to see them focus on the latter, and even more fun to write about it.

 

There's a anti-materialistic vein to this chapter as well. If you think about it, the two things that Robbie did that impacted Brad the most were in this chapter, and both damn near free.

 

I honestly haven't figured out how Claremont will turn out. Part of me detests the midwest culture of "do what I say and don't be different," and that makes it tempting to leave it as a cultural backwater. On the other hand, it's almost irresistible to turn it into a shining beacon of what a city could be if it truly wanted to. I'd bet on the latter. Even I'm scared of Tonto.

[gjtravel2a]

As you say, Mark's skill draws us into the story and creates an obvious passion for the characters and events. To me, it seems that Chap 32 offers what may be the perfect respite for Brad & Robbie. Thinking back over their long time-togehter it is an understatement to say that a great deal has happened that they have not fully integrated into their core relationship. They both seem to be struggling more with the desire 'to be together' as they were instead of celebrating the couple they could be with the natural changes that have evolved in both of their internal self and external surroundings. Just 'wanting to be together' is only enough to keep one together if the relationship is stagnant. As dynamic as their lives are, there is a need to not just have the desire, but also the acceptance of the change in both parties and the willingness to adapt. Though there have been dramatic moments, the story itself is not a grand opera about supernatural people. Instead, to me it has been the growth of two guys who have had both incredible fortune and have both worked their (muscular and well toned) butts off. The very apt juxtaposition of the car & truck at Robbie's office shows the transition. Obviously, they have achieved on the upper-end of return for their efforts, but given their setting, it is enviable but believable. This believability enhances their struggle for they are characters who have the rewards of the combination of hard work and good fortune and are still dealing with the everyday issues of relationships with spouses, kids, friends, and enemies. After both what they have had thrust upon them by external forces and the great heights they have both achieved in their work lives, how could Robbie still be the 'truck' or Brad just a simple 'surfer boy'? They may have the same core personalities, but they are far from the young kids they were. It seems to me that part of their fight has been to try to keep their relationship in the same confines they established as teenagers. The more confident (albeit nervous) Robbie was extraordinarily attractive to Brad (and hopefully Robbie as well). Perhaps It is the expression of what Brad has said about Robbie keeping him challenged. The question is, can Robbie challenge Brad without the near constant whining and the need for the theatricality of a Carson interlude? Can Robbie be strong and still provide the loving support Brad needs? He did a nice job with the key....Can Brad (not Mr Perfect but in my mind, more likable and vulnerable than Robbie) actually accept Robbie as a powerful person and then truly share that power in all aspects of their lives together? This chapter sets up that possibility quite nicely. It doesn't confirm that they will be able to create a new workable dynamic and get back to an exclusive, loving monogamous relationship esconsed in their Malibu retreat, but they have a chance to let their love 'grow-up' and take expression in a new healthier way given the massive transitions that have occurred in their lives since they fell into lust/love so many years ago. Either growing back together or remaining supportive and loving friends are logical options. Without hard work, become distant wraiths could also happen, but given Mark's bent towards happy endings, unlikely! Granted, living apart (not just Malibu & the apartment but also the other homes they share) will make it easy to get swept away into busy separate lives, but at least now, they seem to be working not from just "I want to be with you" to a healthier "What is it going to take to be a new healthy us". In truth ( my Brad-bent showing), I do give Brad the credit for realizing this on some level and not just accepting Robbie's advances of the last week or so. It was tough, but Brad seems to sense that going back just wouldn't have lasted and it would have deeply hurt both of them. Refusing to go back to the old was not only self-preservation, but an act of love for Robbie for Robbie would not have benefited from returning to their old selves.

Edited September 17, 2010 by gjtravel2a

[Mark Arbour]

As you say, Mark's skill draws us into the story and creates an obvious passion for the characters and events. To me, it seems that Chap 32 offers what may be the perfect respite for Brad & Robbie. Thinking back over their long time-togehter it is an understatement to say that a great deal has happened that they have not fully integrated into their core relationship. They both seem to be struggling more with the desire 'to be together' as they were instead of celebrating the couple they could be with the natural changes that have evolved in both of their internal self and external surroundings. Just 'wanting to be together' is only enough to keep one together if the relationship is stagnant. As dynamic as their lives are, there is a need to not just have the desire, but also the acceptance of the change in both parties and the willingness to adapt. Though there have been dramatic moments, the story itself is not a grand opera about supernatural people. Instead, to me it has been the growth of two guys who have had both incredible fortune and have both worked their (muscular and well toned) butts off. The very apt juxtaposition of the car & truck at Robbie's office shows the transition. Obviously, they have achieved on the upper-end of return for their efforts, but given their setting, it is enviable but believable. This believability enhances their struggle for they are characters who have the rewards of the combination of hard work and good fortune and are still dealing with the everyday issues of relationships with spouses, kids, friends, and enemies. After both what they have had thrust upon them by external forces and the great heights they have both achieved in their work lives, how could Robbie still be the 'truck' or Brad just a simple 'surfer boy'? They may have the same core personalities, but they are far from the young kids they were. It seems to me that part of their fight has been to try to keep their relationship in the same confines they established as teenagers. The more confident (albeit nervous) Robbie was extraordinarily attractive to Brad (and hopefully Robbie as well). Perhaps It is the expression of what Brad has said about Robbie keeping him challenged. The question is, can Robbie challenge Brad without the near constant whining and the need for the theatricality of a Carson interlude? Can Robbie be strong and still provide the loving support Brad needs? He did a nice job with the key....Can Brad (not Mr Perfect but in my mind, more likable and vulnerable than Robbie) actually accept Robbie as a powerful person and then truly share that power in all aspects of their lives together? This chapter sets up that possibility quite nicely. It doesn't confirm that they will be able to create a new workable dynamic and get back to an exclusive, loving monogamous relationship esconsed in their Malibu retreat, but they have a chance to let their love 'grow-up' and take expression in a new healthier way given the massive transitions that have occurred in their lives since they fell into lust/love so many years ago. Either growing back together or remaining supportive and loving friends are logical options. Without hard work, become distant wraiths could also happen, but given Mark's bent towards happy endings, unlikely! Granted, living apart (not just Malibu & the apartment but also the other homes they share) will make it easy to get swept away into busy separate lives, but at least now, they seem to be working not from just "I want to be with you" to a healthier "What is it going to take to be a new healthy us". In truth ( my Brad-bent showing), I do give Brad the credit for realizing this on some level and not just accepting Robbie's advances of the last week or so. It was tough, but Brad seems to sense that going back just wouldn't have lasted and it would have deeply hurt both of them. Refusing to go back to the old was not only self-preservation, but an act of love for Robbie for Robbie would not have benefited from returning to their old selves.

 

Hey you. Get out of my brain.

[gjtravel2a]

Lol, well if that compliment were even true, it would be a lovely place to be!

[methodwriter85]

I honestly haven't figured out how Claremont will turn out. Part of me detests the midwest culture of "do what I say and don't be different," and that makes it tempting to leave it as a cultural backwater. On the other hand, it's almost irresistible to turn it into a shining beacon of what a city could be if it truly wanted to. I'd bet on the latter. Even I'm scared of Tonto.

 

Personally, I like the idea of the plan succeeding, but at a cost. Namely the gentrification works so well that lower-income families get priced out of the Claremont. That tends to be the price for gentrifying areas. I could see that as something Darius, Will, and JJ struggle with when they start taking part in the family business- trying to keep parts of Claremont affordable because JP's plan worked too well.

 

Ten years seems like a reasonable time frame to turn around a city, especially when you got the combined resources of the Cramptons and Schluter's being thrown at it.

[Conner]

I, personnally, could use a gentrification program. 10 years??? :wacko:

 

Surely JP and Stef will figure in adequate low cost housing. I'm no urban planner though.

 

Robbie's in a much better space than I thought. I really did think he was going to throw in the towel. Giving Brad a key to his apartment was so sweet. Go Robbie Go. Things are definitely looking up on that front.

 

Brad really does need something to do - he doesn't do boring very well and he'll just get himself into trouble. I appreciate that his heart might not be in the Claremont project.

[methodwriter85]

I, personnally, could use a gentrification program. 10 years??? :wacko:

 

You'd be surprised, Conner. In 1990, my college town was a struggling backwater town reeling from the loss of factories around the area. By 2000, the town had successfully parlayed the college students into successfully reviving the local economy, resulting in lots of new construction of apartments, businesses, and resturants.

 

Claremont is small enough (I'm guessing it's a town of about 20,000 to 25,000) that you could really change things pretty quickly with enough money behind it.

[Mark Arbour]

I, personnally, could use a gentrification program. 10 years??? :wacko:

 

Surely JP and Stef will figure in adequate low cost housing. I'm no urban planner though.

 

Robbie's in a much better space than I thought. I really did think he was going to throw in the towel. Giving Brad a key to his apartment was so sweet. Go Robbie Go. Things are definitely looking up on that front.

 

Brad really does need something to do - he doesn't do boring very well and he'll just get himself into trouble. I appreciate that his heart might not be in the Claremont project.

 

 

I really liked that scene too. I'm sorry, it probably sounds vain to say that, to like something you've written yourself, but every once in a while I kick out something that I think is good/cute, whatever. I thought that scene was cute. It was a really cool gesture.

 

I thought packing clothes was a nice thing to do to. I was in one of those wistful moods....what would I like someone to do for me? Answer: Anticipate my needs.

[Tonybologna]

Im really enjoying this story. Forgive me, if I have missed some things in the many sequels, but I was hoping since everyone seems to be going back to Claremont in this part of the story, that maybe we could get an update with some of the older characters, since that is where they are from. Whatever happened to Vella, Abe, and Sammy? I liked Sammy alot, and would like to know what he is into. I thought Vella was really funny, too. Just curious about them. Cant wait to read the next chapter.

[Canuk]

Lol, well if that compliment were even true, it would be a lovely place to be!

 

 

especially if it was only foreplay .......

[Caedus]

That's right! What ever happened to Sammy? Didn't he get involved in the black protests back in Chicago? Vella and Abe (if they aren't already dead) could still be living in their home in West Claremont.

[Canuk]

You'd be surprised, Conner. In 1990, my college town was a struggling backwater town reeling from the loss of factories around the area. By 2000, the town had successfully parlayed the college students into successfully reviving the local economy, resulting in lots of new construction of apartments, businesses, and resturants.

 

Claremont is small enough (I'm guessing it's a town of about 20,000 to 25,000) that you could really change things pretty quickly with enough money behind it.

 

 

Great chapter; looks like they have finally grown into the same space.... too 'em long enough to get there.

 

As far as the gentrification of Claremont; 10 years in no where long enough. programs/projects like this need to develop organically and be whole-heartedly adopted by residents if they are going to succeed. Otherwise you have one person's delusional estate that never quite works. This project is starting out well with a plan, a degree of consensus and bags of money. To make it a success with be local buy-in and a level of flexibility by the planners and instigators - whether JP et al have the ability to change/mold/add to, deduct or wvwn scrap "their" plan for what the community wants....... and all this takes time - so in my mind "quick" change is definately not what is needed......

 

so Mark , whenever you are ready, I'll be there ready to "consult" - I'll even bring some decent Australian wine.......

[methodwriter85]

Alright, so how about 20 years instead? Although that would take us to 2020, and I can't imagine Mark will still be writing the CAP saga by then. Maybe instead there's promising signs by 2010, but it's not totally there yet. I'm just saying that you can see a major turn-around in a community in just ten short years. Maybe not to the extent they want, but it is possible to see a dying town show signs of thriving within a ten-year span. Off the top of my head, I can think of two towns in my state that it happened to.

 

And I don't think they're advocating quick change- this is about building a base on which to grow on.

Edited September 18, 2010 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Alright, so how about 20 years instead? Although that would take us to 2020, and I can't imagine Mark will still be writing the CAP saga by then. Maybe instead there's promising signs by 2010, but it's not totally there yet. I'm just saying that you can see a major turn-around in a community in just ten short years. Maybe not to the extent they want, but it is possible to see a dying town show signs of thriving within a ten-year span. Off the top of my head, I can think of two towns in my state that it happened to.

 

And I don't think they're advocating quick change- this is about building a base on which to grow on.

 

Something like this isn't about "quick" change, as if you leave town one year and come back the next and it's re-vamped. It's about evolution. I'm not sure how realistic dramatic change would be. Then again, this isn't real, it's fiction.

[methodwriter85]

If you really wanted to, you could have the citizens of Claremont strike oil, turning it into a boom town of 75k overnight.

 

In all honesty, I think their plan is workable. It differs from the renewal plans of the 1950's and 1960's, where they just plowed down entire neighborhoods with the idea that everything would be replaced with shiny new stuff to mimic the suburbs. The renewal plans are closer to the New Urbanism ideals that were developed in the 1980's and 1990's- building walk-able neighborhoods that are attractive to young professionals who are not interested in the suburban, car-dependant lifestyle. And it also has echoes of the Urban Homesteader Movement of the 1970's- the 1970's marked a new thought in urban renewal as cities began to see the benefit of rehabbing buildings instead of just tearing them down. The plan for East Claremont does echo the 1950's thought, but it seems like they want to save buildings that could be rehabbed. Unfortunately for E. Claremont, most of those buildings can't be because they were shoddily built in the first place.

 

I got the idea for the Claremont factory from this factory in Newark, Delaware. After the factory closed, they gutted it and turned it into a thriving resturant with loft apartments. It has a really cool ambience. There are a lot of former factories that this happens to, at least brick ones that have interesting architecture. I kinda like the idea of Robbie helping with that project.

 

JP and Stefan aren't dumb enough to think that if they just need the build the houses and offices and people will come. They're going to give people reasons to come there. It probably won't be completed in 10 years, but I bet there will be a lot of progress.

[Ivy]

I agree they are going to have to give people a reason to want to be there besides a good looking riverwalk area and great loft apartments...what about a world class ice rink, with an attached "academy" for ice-skating hopefuls like JJ. They could try to attract a minor league hockey team to base there, (the Columbus Blue Jackets are not too far away and call ups to the NHL team wouldn't have to travel that far to get there). That would give locals and tourists an attraction that is not just business related. Just a thought.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Ivy

[Canuk]

methodwriter, you are right - it's about rejuvenation and adding to old infrastructure to produce desirable living places to support the new ins=dustry that will need to be developed. Some of this can be achieved in a 5-10 year period....the "transformation" may take longer.

 

i need my coffee before I write any more

[Hoskins]

FOOEY your ideas are all POOP

 

What Claremont needs more than ANYTHING is a new CHURCH. Just plop one of these babies down in town, throw a little righteous Schluter indignation in there, spice it up with some down home Crampton Construction, and baby, you got a stew going.

[methodwriter85]

methodwriter, you are right - it's about rejuvenation and adding to old infrastructure to produce desirable living places to support the new ins=dustry that will need to be developed. Some of this can be achieved in a 5-10 year period....the "transformation" may take longer.

 

i need my coffee before I write any more

 

 

I took a class on the history of Wilmington, Delaware. It was a medium-sized city(about 112k people in 1940) that saw its population go down to about 70k by 1980. The population has remained at about that level- its story is pretty similar to rust-belt stories. It's been trying urban renewal since about the 1950's- some things have worked, and quite often a lot of things have gone wrong. Seeing what works and seeing what doesn't kinda informed my opinion when I consulted with JP and Stefan about doing plans for Claremont.

 

Aside from still having rich folks in the area and some really good architecture, Claremont benefits from not having an incredibly rampant crime rate, which is the main thing that has always hampered Wilmington's urban renewal efforts. Claremont also benefits from having a river with an unique Y-shaped bridge. (Zainesville, the real-life model for Claremont, has an arts festival centered around the bridge.) And of course, Claremont is a town of about 20k to 25k, which means that renewal efforts can show up much more quickly than in a larger city. Like I said, Newark, Delaware is about the same size, and you could visibibly see how much the city had changed from 1995 to 2005. Of course, it has a major univerisity driving the economic engine of the town, but I'm betting JP has something cooking to give the economy a shot in the arm.

[B1ue]

Something random that ocurred to me as I was reading chapter 32, but does anyone else get the sense that we may have wandered off into the sequel? Or part two of the same book, I suppose. I had an inkling of it during the Labor Day posting blitz, but with even the characters echoing the loose end feeling, I'm more an more convinced "Millenium" ended with chapter 29, and now we're on, I don't know, "Millenium, Part 2: My Next Thirty Years."

 

As it isn't my story, I am perfectly willing to go along with Mark's decision to keep this one long story. But I do feel that all the major conflicts, including the initial conflict between Robbie and Brad that drove the story in the first place, hit some kind of resolution by the end of chapter 29. We aren't really there anymore, after all. Robbie has apologized, Brad has accepted that apology. We're in a whole new set of conflicts, where Brad and Robbie try to find a way to fit together again, and Brad goes over the other relationships in his life, to try and find a way to balance their needs, which in some case he only just became aware of, without compromisng his own sense of self or personal integrity. And if that first conflict was mirrored by the rise and political destruction of Amphion, this new looks to be mirrored by the renewal of Claremont, a proud city as savaged by time and neglect as Brad and Robbie's relationship has been.

 

Wow. Usually, when I step ankle deep into an extended metaphor like that, I've at least been drinking. But, perhaps Mark, you might use my flight of fancy to guide where you want Claremont's revitalization to go?

[Mark Arbour]

Something random that ocurred to me as I was reading chapter 32, but does anyone else get the sense that we may have wandered off into the sequel? Or part two of the same book, I suppose. I had an inkling of it during the Labor Day posting blitz, but with even the characters echoing the loose end feeling, I'm more an more convinced "Millenium" ended with chapter 29, and now we're on, I don't know, "Millenium, Part 2: My Next Thirty Years."

 

As it isn't my story, I am perfectly willing to go along with Mark's decision to keep this one long story. But I do feel that all the major conflicts, including the initial conflict between Robbie and Brad that drove the story in the first place, hit some kind of resolution by the end of chapter 29. We aren't really there anymore, after all. Robbie has apologized, Brad has accepted that apology. We're in a whole new set of conflicts, where Brad and Robbie try to find a way to fit together again, and Brad goes over the other relationships in his life, to try and find a way to balance their needs, which in some case he only just became aware of, without compromisng his own sense of self or personal integrity. And if that first conflict was mirrored by the rise and political destruction of Amphion, this new looks to be mirrored by the renewal of Claremont, a proud city as savaged by time and neglect as Brad and Robbie's relationship has been.

 

Wow. Usually, when I step ankle deep into an extended metaphor like that, I've at least been drinking. But, perhaps Mark, you might use my flight of fancy to guide where you want Claremont's revitalization to go?

 

I see your point. Here's where I am on it. There are two broad plotlines here: one is the issue with Brad and Robbie and their relationship, the second is the issues surrounding their business. To this point, neither one of those issues is resolved, so I felt the story needed to go on until they were.

[gjtravel2a]

This does point to the question of whether this story will end before the historical market meltdown that began after Mar 11, 2000. I for one hope it does not! You have set it up nicely for they indicated they plan on being out of the market by the end of February (Great timing on their part, eh?) and as long as they don't sink it all in the NASDAQ, they should be sitting pretty. This is not unlike stories that certain families like the Kennedy Family and a few others were prescient in their timing on exiting the market before the Great Depression. As with all market meltdowns, It is expected that certain families/individuals will have good timing and other's wont', so Stef et al getting out now is both good luck but more market savey on their side. The discipline to leave the market at this time was something not many had, but those that did, did quite well. I believe it was at this time that books like Dow @30,000 were on the best seller's list. This is part of my own fascination with this story for it was recent and a quite volatile time that affected many of your own reader's lives/careers/livliehoods. I hope that the story extends some point beyond the spring of 2000 and that we get a sense of what they feel as the market begins its decline and how it impacts their competitors and enemies. Speaking of which, I hope we get a chance to learn what is going on with people at Dan, Cary, Amphion, etc. What are they thinking and doing now that they are beginning to realize the extent to which they were discovered and to some extent, played like a cheap guitar! There must be a great deal of bluster, grand-standing and finger pointing that is only just beginning to impact them and their companies. Though the issues of Brad and Robbie are the primary story here, what is going on within the broader business is both fascinating and intriguing. The shift in business for Brad and Stef will be fascinating as well. I look forward to seeing how you guide us through this continuing story and suspect that there will be a tie-in between the collapse of certain technologies and the potential for rebuilding their 'hometown'. Pouring money into such a town at this point could be a wise economic decision if handled correctly and without the need for an immediate return by the next quarter.

Edited September 20, 2010 by gjtravel2a

[methodwriter85]

Blue, I really like your idea of the renewal of Claremont standing for the renewal of Brad and Robbie's relationship. That's a great thought, and one that makes a lot of sense.

 

My guess is that after this story ends in spring 2000, the next story will pick up in fall 2000 with Matt Carrswold. Matt is starting his junior year by then, and him interning with Stefan's company seems like a no-brainer. I'm betting that Matt will update us over what happened with the fall-out of the tech meltdown during the summer of 2000.

 

Mark fit 3 stories into 1999. I wouldn't be surprised if he had two stories that covered 2000. The 2000's actually was a pretty turbulent decade, thanks to stuff like 9/11 and the War on Terror and the Great Recession. It's the last decade of the saga, but there's a lot of material to work with.

 

My guess is that after this story ends in spring 2000, the next story will pick up in fall 2000 with Matt Carrswold. Matt is starting his junior year by then, and him interning with Stefan's company seems like a no-brainer. I'm betting that Matt will update us over what happened with the fall-out of the tech meltdown during the summer of 2000. Mark fit 3 stories into 1999. I wouldn't be surprised if he had two stories that covered 2000.

Edited September 20, 2010 by methodwriter85

[gjtravel2a]

I would agree and hope that is the case. The suggestion for Matt is logical, but who knows what twists and turns await us. I would speculate that the only sacrosanct couples at this point are JP/Stef and perhaps Claire so who know who or what is fair game for 2000.....