Schmaltz, saccharine, sickening

[SynthSky]

But there's a difference between an artistic choice to make a bubbly, upbeat romance, and a serious dramatic story that turns into a blind expression of the writer's ideal relationship. The latter is associated with shallow characters, rushed true love, questionable sexual practices, etc., and is very different than an intentionally positive/humanistic, well-planned story. I'm saying that it happens because of inexperience, and that it tends to be something masturbatory that blurs any original storytelling intentions. I'm also pointing out that it's not a very big deal, like b1ue said.

 

On the other side of things, Cia is totally right. We all have our individual tastes.

[Dannsar]

I'm trying to refrain from sounding like I am ranting myself, which is difficult, because I am in basic disagreement with the thrust of your deabte, if not your evidence. So, while I believe you when you say that this is not a rant-post, I intitially thought that's exactly what it was. In fact, I still would, if you had not backpedaled and stated theat you were only raising awareness of an issue. I feel it was an easy conclusion to reach when your initial post boiled down to, "internet stories are crap and do not often reach emotional tenors that are interesting to me." Obviously, that's not what you meant, but that sounds like what you said.

 

As I said, I cannot argue with your evidence, which is pretty plain on even a cursory glance through the Nifty Archives. Cliches abound in many of thsoe stories, to the point where they are mocked, cited, and annotated as the attributes of gay fiction. My first story I wrote specifically because I wanted to read a protagonist that I found lacking on the archive, someone to whom angst was a foreign concept and was quite fine with being gay, thank you. I've since found others (the opening arc of Kaimona Tales on CRVboy springs to mind most readily), but of course not many.

 

But I do disagree with the idea, almost obscured by the smirking identification of other cliches authors run, headlong, into in this little world, that the plethora of happy, upbeat fiction is a herald of the end times. That is a matter of taste, and opinion, I think. You are certainly free to dislike them, but to call it a problem of the genre and not how you, personally, approach the genre is going a bit too far. Personally, I can't stand the creepy, the maudlin, and the potentially insane in stories I read. I prefer bubblegum literature, which at least won't leave me scratching my head wondering if it was the characters who were crazy, the authors, or myself. After a time, the answer may as well have been myself. Christopher's Story bothered me for, oh, two years I think. I have yet to finish a Carl Holiday story, despite the high quality of the prose, because they are simply too dark for me. Nephy I've made an exception for, but even her I need to take in small doses. But none of this dislike is a relfection on the stories. I'm the one with a problem; the words are there whether I can deal with them or not. It is unreasonable to demand the Archive, and the authors on it, adjust to suit my tastes.

 

Do you not see how it might be the same for yours?

Well, I'm a bit bemused by this B1ue. (First of all, let me thank you for a pretty well written input, which, like Cia's which followed, attempts some clarity and reason).

 

 

boiled down to, "internet stories are crap and do not often reach emotional tenors that are interesting to me.

Firstly, I have re-read my polemic post, and nowhere within it do I appear to say anything which could be construed as my having said it ai all crap. In fact what I did say was that GA authors at least have a breadth of styles, which is my way of saying that there is clearly other stuff out there, but it is just not frequent enough. Read my reviews ... I say that some stuff is great. My contributions speak for themselves. An ill informed opinion of my stance helps nobody.

 

 

backpedaled

Secondly, an accusation(for that is how it feels to me, as someone who likes to think and articulate in sustainable ways) that I have backpedaled [sic] is way wide of the mark. I have not backpeddaled one single iota, believe me.

 

Thirdly, I see you are in South California, so USA. I don't know if you have the ... well, let's call it the phenomenon! ... of Mills and Boon in the US. Mills and Boon are a series of formulaic romance novels, much derided in the UK. And, while I, myself, do not particularly care for them, they are what they are. Madly, truly madly, successful. There are no easily found figures, but they have been going for over 100 years and sell one book every three seconds! The writers do not pretend to anything other than the formula - they're not allowed to. The publishers don't. And the market doesn't. It's all pretty clear, and there is no gainsaying it. There are times when the head needs to be shut off and some pulp fiction is necessary. And I accept that. Being an adult learning tutor and having some background in getting boys to read, it has to be acknowledged that any reading is good reading if the alternative is that there is going to be no reading at all. Several people above have made the point that the head needs shutting off sometimes. Several have said that some escapism is required. I accept both of those things, even though my little autistic brain (which cannot be switched off, ever - unfortunately, and is entirely logical ) finds it hard to come to terms with. Mills and Boon is pulp, but it clearly fills some need, so that's fine.

 

However, one has to ask what is going on if the proportion of a fiction area is dominated by a narrow tropic set. Mills and Boon is just a very small part of what we might call 'ordinary' culture writing (I know that is a problematic term, but hey ho for the mo). It is nowhere near the proportional equivalent that the trope I mentioned in my first post constitutes in 'gay fiction'.

 

 

You are certainly free to dislike them, but to call it a problem of the genre and not how you, personally, approach the genre is going a bit too far. ... It is unreasonable to demand the Archive, and the authors on it, adjust to suit my tastes.

Fourthly, I'd be fascinated to hear how I, as a member of society equal to everybody else, am supposed to change the world for (what I see as) the better if I am to be admonished to keep my opinions to myself, for that seems the logical conclusion of your statement - people are usually expected to keep unreasonable opinions to themselves, are they not? I mean, how on earth would I have known how you feel about this subject if you had not disagreed with me on this forum, rather than shaking your head and walking away?

 

Indeed, it seems to me that this sort of approach is entirely capable of being misconstrued as an exhortation to have the ability to review and participate in forum debate removed from this site.

 

 

Do you not see how it might be the same for yours?

Ummm...

 

[irony Alert] I think this v v was very humble of me, at the end of my first post! lol

 

Or is it just me?

[/irony Alert]

 

 

Fifthly, I have had two or three run ins with Dolores Esteban. I think she thinks I hate her writing. I don't. I think it is easily the most challenging writing on here. I do think that she fails to connect at time, but her statements to me indicate that she is at least as fed up of the 'boy meets boy and all if fine with the world forever' trope. Her writing challenges. It explores. It seeks.

 

For me she is a pioneer worthy of applause because she is at least trying to find an alternative way forward and is not afraid to experiment in public and fail in public sometimes. That's truly heroic IMHO. She posted a piece of Flarf poetry the other night. It was a fabulous commentary on the genesis and making of meaning in the modern world. It dealt with the same subject as her previous posting which I thought just failed miserably, basically because she failed to develop the reader sufficently in line with her own developments, so that she could take them onwards with her possible new direction.

 

The point here is that she is trying to make the literature deeper and more useful. 'Boy meets boy for ever after' has a use and a place for sure. But transitory and fleeting happiness is a bit like drinking to forget. The problems remain.

 

 

Lastly, I can do no more than refer you to Mark Arbour's post which was a direct lift of an input to another site by Nick Archer. Not only did Nick Archer seem to be saying entirely what I was saying, he was actually broadening it out dramatically. If my few lines were a rant (and how is a set of comments such as mine (which were not meant as a rant) not capable of being represented as a rant, when that term is liberally abused by people to devalue opinions contrary to their own), then Nick Archer is quite clearly capable of being characterised as a demented madman running around baying at the moon, accusing it of being the cause of entirely every faulty star in the sky.

 

But I do value your position that there is something out there for everyone, and that breadth needs to be maintained. I suppose what I want is a bit more depth. I feel I can do no better than to leave this with Cia's statement. But it doesn't mean that I will give up looking for different, more challenging, writing.

 

 

There will always be readers out there for those stories you might not like to read, that is the beauty of the internet. To each their own. Some people like those kinds of stories and Nifty is heaven to them. Some like to go beyond that and read here on GA.

[J_C_Lawrence]

I grew up reading Emily Bronte, Isabele Allende, Gabriel Garcia Marques, Anna Quindlen, Michael Ondaajatje, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Pierre Moore, Alice Walker, and such literary writers that drama is essential for a good love story. And what makes the quality of the story so enriching and heartwarming is its capacity to torment your soul while leaving you breatheless for the love that the protagonist has for either themselves, the other protagonist and their environments.

 

It's simply to each their own cup of tea. But I agree with you with homosexual love stories nowadays exerting that extra ooze factor for a good love story is sort of sickening to some extent.

 

But you also have to understand that boy to boy love stories, or stories of awakening between two young adolescents are tumultuous times. Anyone who has experienced puberty would say that experiencing love at a young age, despite the constrictions and taboo of society and the environment, makes everything seem in haste to a reader.

 

The problem is if the writer lacks the neccessary details and descriptions to explain how an abrupt romance would spring in the mindset of two young lovers who are experiencing puberty.

 

If a writer tells a simple story of a boy who fell in love at first sight with another boy, without explaining the drama that involves within the relationships...it all becomes a ruse and too easy.

 

We all love drama, and even if that involves two lovers being separated for 20 plus years and being reunited when time has matured them to know what is true love, then it becomes a good story.

 

Or an unrequited love that makes a boy learn of his self, his worth and his being....that would make a good story.

 

A professor of mine in literature told me, "Details is what interests the reader, and how the author melds it with the facts of life makes a simplest of story to be engraved in the hearts of the audience."

[intune]

I agree...sometimes. At times it seems silly for stories to resolve so simply, for characters to fall in love so fast. Once and awhile I want a story with lots of obstacles and difficult situations where the characters don't necessarily end up together. But, I must say that equally as often I'm in the mood for simple love stories. Maybe it's idealistic, but sometimes i wish life was actually like that.

[Mark Arbour]

A professor of mine in literature told me, "Details is what interests the reader, and how the author melds it with the facts of life makes a simplest of story to be engraved in the hearts of the audience."

 

Your professor, presumably an English professor, might garner more credibility if he/she had said "Details ARE what interests the reader...."

[Conner]

This thread reminds me, painfully I might add, of the several times that the subject of sex in GA stories is discussed. Invariably, these threads are started by members who believe they exist on a higher moral plane and who would prefer that all authors conform to it. They smoke weed but don't inhale.

 

This thread is about snobbery, plain and simple.

[Dannsar]

This thread reminds me, painfully I might add, of the several times that the subject of sex in GA stories is discussed. Invariably, these threads are started by members who believe they exist on a higher moral plane and who would prefer that all authors conform to it. They smoke weed but don't inhale.

 

This thread is about snobbery, plain and simple.

 

Oh well, that'll be me told

[Nephylim]

I think that this topic has gone way off track.

 

And I think that the broad consensus is that people are very different in what they read, what they look for in the things they read and what they get out of what they read.

 

It doesn't really matter whether you like to read Twilight or the Oxford English Dictionary, the fact is that you need the choice and you need to choose.

 

If you don't like a story, don't read it. If you like a story devour every word.

 

Reading is SO subjective. A writer could produce and absolute work of art, with every single word, every characterisation and every story arc, technically perfect. It could be moving enought to bring tears to the eyes and rich enough to let you 'see' every scene. BUT there will STILL be many many people who won't enjoy reading it. It's the way of the world guys.

 

Any discussion about something so subjective is bound to produce VASTLY differing opinions and every single one of them is valid to the person who owns it. Who are we to say who's right and who;s wrong when it comes to tastes and opinions.

 

Stop being defensive and go read a story.

[Graeme]

Not that it's needed, but here are my views on the various subjects touched on in this thread

 

Genres

Genres are a subject in their own right, because you can usually drill down into them to find other genres. As an example, the genres of gay fiction and science fiction have one big thing in common - they both encompass all the other commonly considered genres. There are gay westerns, gay historical stories, gay romances (lots of those ), gay dramas, gay comedies, gay mysteries, gay horror, gay action-adventures, even gay science fiction.

 

Authors

Most of the authors on the Internet are beginning authors. As such, they will often start with something that they feel they have a degree of confidence in, and the vast majority find that to be romance. It's a very popular genre, and, to a degree, an easy one for someone who likes the genre to write in. It is therefore not surprising that there is a lot of gay romance stories available. It's also not surprising that they vary considerably in quality, since, as I've said, a lot of them are the first attempts of those authors.

 

Similarly, as the authors become more experienced, they can either consolidate their skills in their chosen genre, or try to expand. Both are natural outcomes, but neither should be 'forced' onto the authors. It's their choice based on what they feel they want to do. As a personal example, I have several times tried to expand the range of genres I write in but I find that there are lots of genres that I'm just not capable of writing in. I can do romance, sometimes comedy, and drama. I've tried horror and it didn't come out as horrifying. I've tried mystery and I was woeful. I've consider historical, but I'm too scared that I'll get the historical facts wrong (history has never been a passion of mine). I've touched on science fiction and fantasy a couple of times, but I recognise that that's not where my skills lie. So I tend to concentrate on my strengths and consolidate those, rather than expanding my range of writings.

 

Now, looking at the hosted authors here at GA, I see a range of genres that reflect the range of available genres. Yes, a lot are romance/drama authors, but even there they range from escapism to realism. But there's adventure (C James), Science fiction (dkstories and Myr), dark fantasy (Kyle Aarons and Nephylim), lighter fantasy (Myr, Lugh and TheZot), historical fiction (Mark Arbour), and horror (vlista20).

 

I'll admit that there is a huge number of stories by the above authors that I haven't written (partly due to lack of time, and partly because not all of those genres appeal to me), so the above categorisations are based on information I've heard.

 

But you can certainly see that even just amongst the hosted authors there a very wide range of genres of good quality. There is an equally wide range of genres amongst the other authors here and elsewhere on the Internet. Yes, romance is a very, very common genre, but the other genres have their authors and their readers. Not as numerous as romance, but they're still there.

 

And I'm still a sucker for a good romance Formulaic or not, as long as the writing is good and the plot is interesting, I'll enjoy it