Paternity

[methodwriter85]

Well, I kind of figure that Mark's kept us in 2000 for so long because there's a lot he wants to set up before shooting us off through the decade, not that three or four stories for every year is going to become the norm. If it does, Mark will be in his 60's and Brad will be barely in his mid-40's at some point. LOL.

 

In any event, I think he's done a great job of creating a new generation that will have a lot of interesting issues to explore as they navigate their teen and twenty-something years in the 2000's. (Hopefully we'll see less of their teen years and more of their twentysomething years...your 20's are just a lot more interesting than a person's teen years. Well, unless you're Molly Ringwald.)

Edited December 12, 2012 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mark would up having characters who were born circa 1989-1992 to represent more late 2000's/early 2010's classes. Or we might just stop with high school stories once we get to John Hobart's graduation in '05, and the stories will just focus more on college kids/twentysomethings. It depends on how much of the 2000's Mark wants to skip or how much of a teenaged viewpoint on this decade Mark wants to have, I think.

 

Don't forget that decades are not purely defined by the interests of those who were in their youth at the time. Youth culture is important, and I know that it is a passion for you, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if Mark chose to explore some of the themes of the 2000's with a more mature voice.

 

For example, CAP and 1968 were both heavily influenced by the war in Vietnam. It might suit Mark's proclivities towards historical contrast to have the 2000's - war in Afghanistan and Iraq, aftermath of the twin towers etc - told by JP. For one, I would find the story of JP's inner turmoil fascinating. Reconciling pacifist sentiment left over from the 1960's with the anger of recent events, and being swept up in a tide, slowly thereafter coming to regret judgements made in haste? I think that would be an awesome story.

 

Moreover, in the 2000's the wealth of Matt, Stefan and Brad will become stratospheric when their £100,000 each of google shares makes them multi billionaires. Mark may choose to inter-wind this story with a more mature voice for Matt - like he did for Brad in millennium.

 

All I'm saying is that we don't need to assume that the more youthful characters have more merit than the older ones. For me, no character mark has ever written was more sexy than Matt. None was more interesting than Stefan. None more thought provoking than JP.

 

Moreover, I am still unshakeable in my belief that the more mature characters have a much better value in terms of the complexity they can be put into the stories. There is only so much "coming of age" that Mark can write before it ceases to challenge him. One thing I have learned about Mark through following his writing is that he constantly challenges himself with how he writes. I'm counting on it!

[TheStoryReader]

It will indeed be interesting to see J.P.’s and Steph.’s reaction to the war on terror. I have observed a great deal of internal conflict in my father and several relatives and friends of his generation. The parallels are there, but, there are a lot of stark differences as well. Particularly for those who are leftists. The drive for independence and freedom by the North Vietnamese and their allies was widely respected, particularly on the left, but, even by many of their enemies in the South and the United States. The same is not so for the Taliban or Al Qaeda or similarly motivated individuals, groups, and governments. I can remember clearly how heartbroken my father was when (and this was before 9/11) the Taliban government destroyed those ancient Buda statues. Or when, some years later, two Taliban militants on a motorcycle blinded two, and disfigured another two, school girls on their way to school, for going to school. Pacifist ideology aside, many of the people who we are fighting now are people who are opposed to almost everything (most close to home to those of us reading this board, gay rights) that the left holds dear. And they are willing to go to horrifically violent lengths to achieve their aims. I am in no way swinging the bat for the Bush Administration and their War on Terror, just pointing out that the enemy this time is a very different group of people than we faced in Vietnam (which should make for some interesting story telling).

[sat8997]

Don't forget that decades are not purely defined by the interests of those who were in their youth at the time. Youth culture is important, and I know that it is a passion for you, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if Mark chose to explore some of the themes of the 2000's with a more mature voice.

 

For example, CAP and 1968 were both heavily influenced by the war in Vietnam. It might suit Mark's proclivities towards historical contrast to have the 2000's - war in Afghanistan and Iraq, aftermath of the twin towers etc - told by JP. For one, I would find the story of JP's inner turmoil fascinating. Reconciling pacifist sentiment left over from the 1960's with the anger of recent events, and being swept up in a tide, slowly thereafter coming to regret judgements made in haste? I think that would be an awesome story.

 

Moreover, in the 2000's the wealth of Matt, Stefan and Brad will become stratospheric when their £100,000 each of google shares makes them multi billionaires. Mark may choose to inter-wind this story with a more mature voice for Matt - like he did for Brad in millennium.

 

All I'm saying is that we don't need to assume that the more youthful characters have more merit than the older ones. For me, no character mark has ever written was more sexy than Matt. None was more interesting than Stefan. None more thought provoking than JP.

 

Moreover, I am still unshakeable in my belief that the more mature characters have a much better value in terms of the complexity they can be put into the stories. There is only so much "coming of age" that Mark can write before it ceases to challenge him. One thing I have learned about Mark through following his writing is that he constantly challenges himself with how he writes. I'm counting on it!

 

+10,000

[MJ85]

I keep wondering when we're going to hear about a divorce between Brad and Robbie, honestly.

[methodwriter85]

Well, you can't get divorced if you can't get married, which doesn't happen in the United States until 2004. (In Massachusetts.) I thought Mark did a nice little bit about that, in the scene where Brad tells Will about the time in 1986 when Brad and Robbie decided to commit to each other, and Will thought about how it seemed like gay couples have a hard time describing their relationship milestones. It's going to be an interesting contrast with Will's generation coming up, where you hear guys his age using terms like "enaged" and "husband" and "married" more often instead of terms like "partner" and "committment ceremony" the way guys Brad's age and even Cody's age do.

 

Anyway, I liked Darius being brought in. I think it's realisitic how the siblings take turns being pissed at each other- first Will and JJ team up against Darius, then Will and Darius are teaming up against JJ. That's very true to life when you have at least three siblings.

 

JJ's bitchiness isn't excusable, but damn I feel sorry that his mom isn't going to be there for his 15th birthday. To use a Mark writing term, that's "raw."

 

It does feel like Mark realized that JJ was pretty isolated off into the corner with his mom and Tiffany in the figure skating world, and little by little he's breaking that down to try to bond him more with one of his fathers. It seems like Mark's chosen Robbie for that, which makes a lot of sense.

Edited December 15, 2012 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

Well, you can't get divorced if you can't get married, which doesn't happen in the United States until 2004. (In Massachusetts.)

 

Whoops. But don't they seem like a "married couple" headed down that road?

[rjo]

The situation between Will and Robbie has got to cause Brad a great deal and heart ache, This can't be good for them. JJ lost Jeanine so now he has picked Robbie. I am not sure it is good for either if them. ( Sorry I just read the list of people who died in Newtown.) Stef told Will once, that some things and some people are worth fighting for. I am proud that Will has taken this on. I believe it is no power trip but an honest caring action. Many may dismiss that because this is Will, but I don't think that is true. Just him holding Mandy and knowing what she likes tells me a lot. At  first I thought  that Jeanine could just fade away and at would be no great loss. However, I have changed my mind. Soon Darius and Will will be gone. It may come to be the braking point with JJ. Either he will grow up or regress even more. Will Robbie help him or will he baby him so much JJ will never grow up. JJ seems not to have the drive that Will has. Honestly not many people do. 14  going on 30. As usual Mark has set up the possiblity for even more drama. Who of us would want it any different. Grant job, Mark.

[centexhairysub]

Okay, I really enjoyed the action in the latest chapter of Paternity but I am getting a different view than some of the others that have commented here already. 

 

I am going to start with the issue that bothers me the most; that is JJ's actions and behaviour.  I have gone back over the last month and have managed to re-read all the books in the series starting with Bloodlines and going through the current story.  I did just skim The Box, as I couldn't find JJ represented in it really.  Based on JJ's trajectory starting with Bloodlines to current, he really should be dead by the next story, probably by suicide.  From a clinical standpoint, there is something really wrong with JJ that we are not aware of.  Even moving into the top levels of a competitive sport and going through puberty isn't enough to change someone's basic personality this much this quickly.  Growing up I had two friends that were world class competitors on a junior level, one in tennis and the other in gymnastics; both of them started traveling not just nationally but internationally by eleven years of age and both went through puberty while dealing with that stress.  Neither of them ever went through the type of change that JJ has, nor did any of the others competitors I meet through them.  I will say that most of the teens I deal with on a daily basis are generally 15 to 19 years old but I do see younger teens periodically and anyone that saw a complete 180 degree change in behaviour with only puberty and pressure associated with a highly competitive sport would warrant a serious closer look.  I do realize that JJ has never been really fully developed and since he has never been a narrator we don't really get a view behind the curtain; but nothing that has been explored would explain his radical change in personality.  If there really is nothing more than the onset of puberty and moving into the upper level of a competitive sports field behind his personality change; he needs to get out of that sport now because his psyche is much to fragile to survive.  With only those two factors in play, JJ would have to be much to fragile to compete successfully at the level he has already reached.  Now with all of that being said, I will make a caveat; there is never any hard and fast rules when dealing with adolescent psychology.  One may crack under the same pressure that another uses to motivate and achieve greatness from; but there are certain patterns in behaviour that will generally tell you which will occur and JJ has not manifested any of those that would indicate such a complete change in behaviour. 

 

I also don't think that JJ is bonding with Robbie.  I think that he is using Robbie to keep a connection with his mother, who is clearly the most important person in his life.  I think if something were to happen to Jeanine, JJ would turn more to Matt than anyone else. 

 

I was really hoping that Darius would be able to shake some sense into Robbie.  He has always been the one that related most fully and honestly with Robbie and they have always had a really good tight relationship.  I sort of thought that Robbie was using Jeanine as a final battle with Will as an end gambit to the Will versus Brad/Robbie war; but I have moved past that.  I think Robbie really believes he is doing the right thing; the problem is he just seems unwilling to see the damage that JJ is doing to Jeanine with his actions. 

 

I am also going to take issue with the use of ECT this early in a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.  ECT is usually only used as an alternate treatment in long term management of the disorder when there is chronic and recurring issues with a medication resistance in patients, non-complieance with medication, or history of suicide attempts by medication.  Jeanine has been in treatment less than four months at this point and that isn't nearly enough time to determine if she is going to be resistant to medicaiton based alternatives.  Now, as I stated in a previous paragraph, there are always exceptions but to use this procedure when only one doctor is really advocating it and the patient team is in disagreement would be counter intuitive.  ECT does have a very high success rate when used properly; around 70% of patients respond in a positive manner to the treatment, although memory loss does occur in about 35 to 40% of all patients being treated with ECT.  ECT is generally a last result treatment, not something you would try after only four months of working with a patient.  The only reasons to use it that quickly would be if the patient was clear and present danger to harm either themselves or others; and no, slapping Will in Norway would not be indicative of that. 

 

Now, the Brad and Robbie issue can be looked at.  I just don't see this latest issue of Jeanine's treatment as even a major one between them.  Yes, Robbie is going to be upset that Brad isn't backing him up; but considering some of what they have dealt with, this just doesn't have enough punch to really split them up...  I mean they have both dealt with the other killing people to protect each other; they have survived a seperation and affairs; they have survived Robbie's whinning and Brad control issues; and they survived a full blown revolt of one of their sons, although I don't think Robbie ever really dealt with his feeling on this.  After all of that, if an argument over Jeanine's course of treatment is what breaks them up; then Mark is just wanting to take them both in a new direction...

 

Mark, I just have to say BRAVO!!!!  This chapter and story has both been some of your finest work yet...

[methodwriter85]

JJ seems not to have the drive that Will has.

 

I completely disagree with that. JJ has drive. It's just that his drive is to win the the competition, whereas Will's drive is more about succeeding in every facet of his life. JJ sees his life as his sport, which is why JJ is neglectful on the "life" part of winning.

 

 

Based on JJ's trajectory starting with Bloodlines to current, he really should be dead by the next story, probably by suicide.

 

Well, JJ is just about to turn 15, the age that Billy was when he died. That would be interesting if Brad lost a son at the same age that he lost a brother.

 

As for JJ's radical personality change, good points. He was described as being sweet and cheerful throughout Bloodlines, which is two years ago in CAP World. In The Box, which is set in summer 1999, JJ's described as being more serious now than he was, but not described as being bitchy. I could've sworn Stefan had a bit where he mourned the loss of the lighthearted, sweet boy who had now become very serious about his sport. He doesn't really get described as being a bitchy diva until the end of the Millenium, when JJ starts butting heads with Gathan during Easter Break, 2000. So he's only really been a bitch, in CAP time, for about eight or so months.

 

Then again, this IS Cap. You should expect rapid personality mood swings and such, to maximize drama. In 8-10 months, Will went from being mournful that Brad didn't ask him to be his best man at the committment ceremony to torching his wardrobe, filing for emancipation, and then basically getting to a place with his dad that you usually don't get to until you're in your 20's.

Edited December 16, 2012 by methodwriter85

[sat8997]

This.

 

I also don't think that JJ is bonding with Robbie.  I think that he is using Robbie to keep a connection with his mother, who is clearly the most important person in his life.  I think if something were to happen to Jeanine, JJ would turn more to Matt than anyone else. 

 

I think Robbie really believes he is doing the right thing; the problem is he just seems unwilling to see the damage that JJ is doing to Jeanine with his actions. 

[JimCarter]

I can agree with some of what each of you are saying, but the one thing that you all seem to be missing is that Robbie has always been a follower and has yet to have an independent thought.  He is vindictive and surprises the hell out of me that he can run anything let alone a successful movie studio.  When Robbie takes on Will it is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[MJ85]

I am also going to take issue with the use of ECT this early in a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.  ECT is usually only used as an alternate treatment in long term management of the disorder when there is chronic and recurring issues with a medication resistance in patients, non-complieance with medication, or history of suicide attempts by medication.  Jeanine has been in treatment less than four months at this point and that isn't nearly enough time to determine if she is going to be resistant to medicaiton based alternatives.  Now, as I stated in a previous paragraph, there are always exceptions but to use this procedure when only one doctor is really advocating it and the patient team is in disagreement would be counter intuitive.  ECT does have a very high success rate when used properly; around 70% of patients respond in a positive manner to the treatment, although memory loss does occur in about 35 to 40% of all patients being treated with ECT.  ECT is generally a last result treatment, not something you would try after only four months of working with a patient.  The only reasons to use it that quickly would be if the patient was clear and present danger to harm either themselves or others; and no, slapping Will in Norway would not be indicative of that.

 

See, this is what bugged me the most, because they go through all that negotiating and make it seem like they're going to start a treatment plan that might actually be beneficial...and then they turn around and say that they're going to start with ECT.

 

If they intend to go that route...then why even bother??

[rjo]

Jeremy you're discription of JJ is 100 % correct. That is what scares me. If JJ fails and fails badly it could be very bad for him. However if Will failed he would just start over. As for Robbie and JJ, they seem to feeding on each other. I feel this is not good for either of them.

[methodwriter85]

Jeremy you're discription of JJ is 100 % correct. That is what scares me. If JJ fails and fails badly it could be very bad for him. However if Will failed he would just start over. As for Robbie and JJ, they seem to feeding on each other. I feel this is not good for either of them.

 

See, this is why I'm interested in seeing what happens to JJ in 2006 and 2010. We already know that JJ won't win the Gold- that goes to Evengi Plushenko and Evan Lysacek, respectively. As he's written now, JJ wouldn't handle that all that well, if he indeed makes it to the age of 20 and 24.

[PrivateTim]

I can agree with some of what each of you are saying, but the one thing that you all seem to be missing is that Robbie has always been a follower and has yet to have an independent thought.  He is vindictive and surprises the hell out of me that he can run anything let alone a successful movie studio.  When Robbie takes on Will it is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

Robbie runs a production company, not a movie studio.

 

And there is a big difference between being able to make business decisions and personal decisions, especially in Hollywood.

 

There are a lot of emotional cripples running production companies in LA among other businesses.

[Mark Arbour]

Okay, I really enjoyed the action in the latest chapter of Paternity but I am getting a different view than some of the others that have commented here already. 

 

I am going to start with the issue that bothers me the most; that is JJ's actions and behaviour.  I have gone back over the last month and have managed to re-read all the books in the series starting with Bloodlines and going through the current story.  I did just skim The Box, as I couldn't find JJ represented in it really.  Based on JJ's trajectory starting with Bloodlines to current, he really should be dead by the next story, probably by suicide.  From a clinical standpoint, there is something really wrong with JJ that we are not aware of.  Even moving into the top levels of a competitive sport and going through puberty isn't enough to change someone's basic personality this much this quickly.  Growing up I had two friends that were world class competitors on a junior level, one in tennis and the other in gymnastics; both of them started traveling not just nationally but internationally by eleven years of age and both went through puberty while dealing with that stress.  Neither of them ever went through the type of change that JJ has, nor did any of the others competitors I meet through them.  I will say that most of the teens I deal with on a daily basis are generally 15 to 19 years old but I do see younger teens periodically and anyone that saw a complete 180 degree change in behaviour with only puberty and pressure associated with a highly competitive sport would warrant a serious closer look.  I do realize that JJ has never been really fully developed and since he has never been a narrator we don't really get a view behind the curtain; but nothing that has been explored would explain his radical change in personality.  If there really is nothing more than the onset of puberty and moving into the upper level of a competitive sports field behind his personality change; he needs to get out of that sport now because his psyche is much to fragile to survive.  With only those two factors in play, JJ would have to be much to fragile to compete successfully at the level he has already reached.  Now with all of that being said, I will make a caveat; there is never any hard and fast rules when dealing with adolescent psychology.  One may crack under the same pressure that another uses to motivate and achieve greatness from; but there are certain patterns in behaviour that will generally tell you which will occur and JJ has not manifested any of those that would indicate such a complete change in behaviour. 

 

I also don't think that JJ is bonding with Robbie.  I think that he is using Robbie to keep a connection with his mother, who is clearly the most important person in his life.  I think if something were to happen to Jeanine, JJ would turn more to Matt than anyone else. 

 

I was really hoping that Darius would be able to shake some sense into Robbie.  He has always been the one that related most fully and honestly with Robbie and they have always had a really good tight relationship.  I sort of thought that Robbie was using Jeanine as a final battle with Will as an end gambit to the Will versus Brad/Robbie war; but I have moved past that.  I think Robbie really believes he is doing the right thing; the problem is he just seems unwilling to see the damage that JJ is doing to Jeanine with his actions. 

 

I am also going to take issue with the use of ECT this early in a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.  ECT is usually only used as an alternate treatment in long term management of the disorder when there is chronic and recurring issues with a medication resistance in patients, non-complieance with medication, or history of suicide attempts by medication.  Jeanine has been in treatment less than four months at this point and that isn't nearly enough time to determine if she is going to be resistant to medicaiton based alternatives.  Now, as I stated in a previous paragraph, there are always exceptions but to use this procedure when only one doctor is really advocating it and the patient team is in disagreement would be counter intuitive.  ECT does have a very high success rate when used properly; around 70% of patients respond in a positive manner to the treatment, although memory loss does occur in about 35 to 40% of all patients being treated with ECT.  ECT is generally a last result treatment, not something you would try after only four months of working with a patient.  The only reasons to use it that quickly would be if the patient was clear and present danger to harm either themselves or others; and no, slapping Will in Norway would not be indicative of that. 

 

Now, the Brad and Robbie issue can be looked at.  I just don't see this latest issue of Jeanine's treatment as even a major one between them.  Yes, Robbie is going to be upset that Brad isn't backing him up; but considering some of what they have dealt with, this just doesn't have enough punch to really split them up...  I mean they have both dealt with the other killing people to protect each other; they have survived a seperation and affairs; they have survived Robbie's whinning and Brad control issues; and they survived a full blown revolt of one of their sons, although I don't think Robbie ever really dealt with his feeling on this.  After all of that, if an argument over Jeanine's course of treatment is what breaks them up; then Mark is just wanting to take them both in a new direction...

 

Mark, I just have to say BRAVO!!!!  This chapter and story has both been some of your finest work yet...

 

I have to totally agree with you on the bold section.  It really should have been a more drawn out process.  I think that I'll allow myself some poetic license here, and fall back on the fear that she was possibly a danger to herself.  

 

Robbie runs a production company, not a movie studio.

 

And there is a big difference between being able to make business decisions and personal decisions, especially in Hollywood.

 

There are a lot of emotional cripples running production companies in LA among other businesses.

 

There are a lot of emotional cripples running corporations, period.  Those two traits (good with family, good at business) don't seem to be highly correlated.  

[Westie]

I have to totally agree with you on the bold section.  It really should have been a more drawn out process.  I think that I'll allow myself some poetic license here, and fall back on the fear that she was possibly a danger to herself.  

 

Though, the fact that it is unrealistic also shows that the doctor's competence can honestly be called into question, so it does fit with the overall theme we are exploring here.

[JimCarter]

Robbie runs a production company, not a movie studio.

 

And there is a big difference between being able to make business decisions and personal decisions, especially in Hollywood.

 

There are a lot of emotional cripples running production companies in LA among other businesses.

 

It matters not what Robbie runs.  I am saying that Robbie seems to want to take the opposite view or side of what Will takes and he is totally outclassed and easily manipulated.  I honestly think Will likes to push Robbie's buttons.  I am not sure if it is to impress his father or just to toy with a mental midget that he likes to see pissed and pouting.

[PrivateTim]

It matters not what Robbie runs.  I am saying that Robbie seems to want to take the opposite view or side of what Will takes and he is totally outclassed and easily manipulated.  I honestly think Will likes to push Robbie's buttons.  I am not sure if it is to impress his father or just to toy with a mental midget that he likes to see pissed and pouting.

 

Yes it matters and this wasn't what you said in your first post.

 

Every kid knows how to push their parents buttons, just as every spouse knows how to push their partner's.

 

It is not doing it that leads to healthy relationships and doing it that leads  to estrangement.

[methodwriter85]

   Mark Arbour used to work in the investment/banker world before he decided to follow his bliss during his mid-life crisis and become a middle-class family guy teaching business classes instead. He knows shit tons about the financial/business world and the personality types that inhabit it. Mark likes to keep at least a little bit of plausbility in the story. If Mark didn't think that Robbie as a character could have run  a corporation, he wouldn't have set that story up for Robbie at the end of Man in Motion.

 

   The only person in CAP that I really couldn't see in the business world would be JJ...temperamental diva types with a theatrical personality tend not to make the best financial decisions. That kind of adds to the feeling of JJ being the odd duck in his family- I can't see JJ having a head for business the way I could see Darius and Will having it.

Edited December 18, 2012 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="methodwriter85" data-cid="395766" data-time="1355704158"><p>

See, this is why I'm interested in seeing what happens to JJ in 2006 and 2010. We already know that JJ won't win the Gold- that goes to Evengi Plushenko and Evan Lysacek, respectively. As he's written now, JJ wouldn't handle that all that well, if he indeed makes it to the age of 20 and 24.</p></blockquote>

 

You are assuming JJ is still alive at the time

[methodwriter85]

   Look at the end of the quote. JJ is approaching his 15th birthday, so maybe Mark will pull a "Billy" on us.

Edited December 18, 2012 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

If something would happen to JJ it would damage the family more than one would think, Billy's death cause pain that continues to this day. Isidore and Brad both blame themselves for not doing more. I am sure J P who carries guilt around all the time. Gutlt from Jeff and surely also from Billy too, We just saw in Newtown what can happen. Many of the children who lived will have the guilt for still living and the parents for sending their children to school that day. It is a never ending master that can destroy lives and people. It is my hope that JJ will be ab;e to grow up. See beyond his own wants and become what he could be, a ro;emodel for others. I agree from this point that would take a lot of work, but he is to imprtant to give up on. Who here does not wonder at times what if Jeff or Billy would have lived and how the story would have changed. I for one would like to see Tonto still around In 2000 she would be a young 97. if where is a vote please don't kill off JJ. Thanks Mark.

Edited December 19, 2012 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

    Thanks for that, RJo. Sometimes I feel like JJ could disapear and go away and no one would even notice because they're too busy paying attention to Golden Boy Will...I'm glad you feel like he's an important character that matters. I do think having a legacy character from a core family is always important, especially if they've got a niche that makes them unlike anybody else on the story canvas.

 

      Over in reviews:

 

Then again Robbie and JJ do need to be separated. I mean JJ pulls his tattle tale bit and Robbie still sides with him.

 

I wonder if JJ would benefit from being sent off to live with relatives not in California. CA isn't the only place with figure skating coaches, and I get the feeling that if JJ got a chance to start over new where no one knew him as the middle-child overshadowed by Will and Darius, he'd do really well. He'd be forced to learn how to socialize with people without his mother and I guess now Robbie, which would make him grow up. As it is right now, JJ's stuck being the angry middle child who doesn't get enough attention. I wonder if there are any good boarding schools on the East Coast or mid-West that are close to Olympic-level figure skating clubs...

 

Tony is an enigma. I see him more as hidden pansexual. He likes to please his partner, but I don't really see him dating a guy.

 

I see Tony as gay, but the kind of gay that can still get it up for a woman. Because Tony can have sex with and enjoy a woman, he can lie to himself about not being gay, but he won't be fully emotionally and physically satisfied with a woman. Unfortunately, he's the type who just can't see himself having and raising a family with a guy, which is why he won't get serious about dating a guy. I have an online friend who was a lot like that- he enjoyed women, but there was a deep physical and emotional need he had to be lying in the arms of another man in the morning after. It took him a long time to come out- he wasn't out until he was 26. I think Tony will be similiar. I wonder if he'll be like my friend and try joining the military to prove to himself that he's not gay. That is a very common and sad story.

 

I do like the contrast- Will(and my) generation is really that first generation of guys where you could say that they didn't need to come out because they were never in a closet to begin with. I'm not saying Will has become the rule, but it's becoming much more common, and I think the fact that gay families and gay marriages have become an option and something that current twentysomethings have grown up with really has done a lot to de-stigmatize being gay. I've talked with an author here...he's from Dallas like Adam Phillips is, but he has a hard time understanding Andy's struggle with his gay side in Cross-Currents because it just wasn't that big of a deal. And this guy is only about nine years younger than Adam is, but you can kind of even see a generation gap there. Even though people complain about how slow the progress is on gay marriage...the progress in terms of how the teenagers and twentysomethings act in regards to gay people is pretty fucking astounding. I mean, in 1992, a 15-year old gay kid couldn't have even concieved that one day he could get married to a guy. Twenty years later, a 15-year old gay kid has that option in a decent amount of states, and can see himself as not missing out on all that much because he's gay.

 

 

but since the first day Mark introduced Alistair I've thought he was Will's ideal partner down the road someplace. A far better match than Tony ever could be.

 

I gotta admit, I like Tony and I get why Will is so attracted to him, but I also don't really see them as a match. Even when they're 26 and 30, and Tony has finally become okay with being gay, there's something about Tony that tells me that they wouldn't be a good match. I think it's because my gut about Tony tells me that he's a guy who believes in the status quo and upholding tradition, while Will is very much about challenging the status quo and forging new traditions and modes of acting. I mean, can you honestly see Tony as he's being written now going off with Will to help save the marine life in Louisiana when the oil spill happens in '10? Tony strikes me as someone who is set for a very conventional life in a white-collar 9-to-5, even if he does wind up married to a guy. That's not to say he can't change, but that's how I'm reading Tony as a character.

 

 

It is a good thing that we know that Will is a good kid, not evil.  Otherwise, Will would've been like a spider spinning his web around Alastair to get back at JJ.  I just don't read Will that way.

 

High School Brad, I think, would have done that. Brad as he is now basically has done stuff like that. Will wouldn't do something like that- I think that's where there's a major difference between Brad and Will. Brad, at times, will treat people like his chess pieces to move around. Will doesn't treat people like that.

Edited December 19, 2012 by methodwriter85