Paternity

[methodwriter85]

   Well, in about a year guys are going to start joining the miliary en masse for the new-fangled War on Terror. I could see Tony joining the military, superficially because of patriotism, but really because it's his last-dtich effort to prove to himself that he's not gay. Tony would not be the first closet case to think that the army would turn him straight, and that would actually be a pretty "of the time" storyline- a closeted gay soldier fighting the War on Terror during the last decade of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Edited February 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

And then... sometime along the way he'll turn up dead somewhere stationed overseas, because that'd be pretty of-the-times too...right? Or would that just be some peoples' wishful thinking?

[Mark Arbour]

   Well, in about a year guys are going to start joining the miliary en masse for the new-fangled War on Terror. I could see Tony joining the military, superficially because of patriotism, but really because it's his last-dtich effort to prove to himself that he's not gay. Tony would not be the first closet case to think that the army would turn him straight, and that would actually be a pretty "of the time" storyline- a closeted gay soldier fighting the War on Terror during the last decade of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

 

I'm not seeing the surge in enlistment you're talking about. 

[methodwriter85]

   Damn it Mark, you and your need to back statements up with statistics. LOL.

 

   Okay, so there's not a huge surge, but there are going to be guys who join up in the War...so I'm assuming that characters we've met in CAP will join up in the coming war. There are way too many characters and these characters aren't that insulated, so I can't see you being able to avoid sending at least one of Will and JJ's friends off to the Iraq War.

 

     It won't be like Vietnam because this isn't a draft, but they'd still have at least a friend or two that'd go. And Gathan would especially be hit hard, because his Claremont buddies are pretty much screaming "Future Iraq War veterans". I don't see you being able to avoid the War on Terror/the Iraq War...those were the big long-lasting effects of 9/11 on this country and the world.

Edited February 9, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

I dunno...I get a vibe that somebody would have to really, really, want to join up for it in order to end up going over. How prevalent was it in your neck of the woods?

 

If anything, it was the stream of reports of young guys dying over there...that, is something that, sadly, seems more believable.

[PrivateTim]

After the past year in Paternity it was nice to see some genuine laughter and people at least trying to get along.   My biggest question from the chapter is about the relationship between Matt and Wade.  Wade definitely crossed a line along with Brad and Brad seems to understand that and is pulling back.  I'm not sure Wade understands.  Matt is having a hard time dealing with it and Wade isn't helping.  I think Wade needs a Nana talk, but it sounds farfetched.  Maybe JP instead?

 

Matt is reaping what he sowed. Wade would have been fine with monogamy, but Matt wasn't and now he is singing the Open Relationship Blues.

 

Well I'd have liked it, if only because the inevitable interaction between Tony and Noah should be interesting, depending on how attached Tony actually is to Will.

 

It would have made me dislike Tony even more since he would be jealous of Noah and possesive of Will without cause. Tony thinks he can have his bimbo and Will will always be there for a nice roll in the hay. Will is already more mature than Tony and progressing.

 

I'm not seeing the surge in enlistment you're talking about. 

 

There was a jump immediately post 9-11, but that wasn't the biggest shift, it was that a number of college kids, professionals etc decided to sign up.

 

I do so miss the Soapbox because I'd love to talk about the Law of Unintended Consequences, which is the most ignored universal law in Washington DC. The same left that threw the ROTC out of Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc later complained that the sons and daughters of the elite were not in the armed forces. There was a time that ROTC was a required course at Yale et al. 9-11 did serve to get a higher quality recruit for a while.

 

The Post 9-11 American Serviceman

Edited February 9, 2013 by PrivateTim

[MJ85]

Matt is reaping what he sowed. Wade would have been fine with monogamy, but Matt wasn't and now he is singing the Open Relationship Blues.

 

I don't think that's the only thing. That factors in in a big way, yes, but I have to think there's another big part of it that has nothing to do with Matt at all. In any case, should Brad bring up the "open relationship" pitfall, I think that'd be a conversation that needs telling to the both of them - but then again, it doesn't seem likely that Matt would listen to a word from Brad.

 

While we're at it, though, the whole entire relationship "saga" (if one wants to call it that) between them now seems so stilted for this entire story in retrospect, mostly because Matt's initial "guy on the side" turned out to be a plant, supplied by Elizabeth. Suppose she hadn't set the proverbial Pandora's Box in motion?

[methodwriter85]

I dunno...I get a vibe that somebody would have to really, really, want to join up for it in order to end up going over. How prevalent was it in your neck of the woods?

 

If anything, it was the stream of reports of young guys dying over there...that, is something that, sadly, seems more believable.

 

Senior year of high school, one of the teachers there had to deal with the death of her son in Iraq. I also had another friend who went Iraq...physically he lost his pinky, but emotionally he had to deal with substance abuse issues and the like.

 

I also knew a good amount of people who were on the G.I. Bill. I always thought it was interesting- these were kids, basically, but they had far bigger concerns and responsibility.

 

Of course, the thing to keep in mind was that there were three military bases in my area- Dover Air Force Base, Fort Monmouth, and Aberdeen Proving Ground were pretty close, but still.

 

If there weren't ties to a small town like Claremont, which in the past Mark has shown as being pretty active in sending their sons and daughters off to war, it'd be one thing, but with that, and the fact that Mark's given this current generation ties to the youth in Claremont...I don't see them not knowing at least a person or two who goes. I'm not saying that it has to be someone they're close to, but at least an acquaintance or two, to make this war personal to them. I could see JJ not caring all that much, but I can see the war really bothering Will, and finding his generation's general apathy toward the war pretty bothersome.

 

My friend Steve (Long Island Hipster Steve, not Jersey Stoner Steve)...he was really into protesting the war. One time...I wanna say during my first junior year, he staged an Iraq War die-in, where we basically dressed up as soldiers, put on fake blood, and lied on the ground pretending to be dead in order to try and get people to care. There were maybe a dozen people at most that participated, which was kind of disapointing.

 

 

There was a jump immediately post 9-11, but that wasn't the biggest shift, it was that a number of college kids, professionals etc decided to sign up.

 

 

Thank you for explaining why I noticed a large amount of people who had joined up when I was in high school and the first half of college, and why I percieved that as a big surge even though Mark's numbers doesn't back that up. I think there's a little bit of a generation gap between myself and Mark in this regard- for Mark's generation, you didn't see white collar or white collar-aspirational people joining up. I think Mark has the perception that it's only blue collar people who sign up, because that's the way it was back in the 1980's when he was military-aged. For my generation, you were seeing a shift in the demographics of the people joining up- the fact that college tuition is like three or four times what it was in the 1980's probably has something to do with it. Kids from families that twenty years ago could have sent their kid to college when it was like 3 or 4 thousand for an entire year at a state school couldn't by the 2000's, when you could expect to pay at least 20k a year at even a relatively in-expensive state school.

 

I felt like there was something that I just wasn't conveying correctly to Mark in this regard, and Tim, you just explained what it was. Thanks for bridging a generation gap here. :2thumbs:

 

 

I think there are two guys that Will is ultimately going to have to sleep with when he gets older:  Cody and Lou.  If I were him, I would

 

I agree about Lou, but I don't think Cody's going happen. Cody is his sister's biological father, so there's something kind of squicky about having them hook up. Also, even though I don't think Will's going to hate Cody for this, I do think it bothers Will that Cody doesn't have it in him to be a father to his daughter. Family is very important to Will, and even though I think Tiffany's talk with him about Cody makes it so that Will can be friends with Cody, I can't see Will wanting to hook up with him. Will have a very strong sense of responsibility and what's right and what's wrong, and I think Cody would be permanently dinged in his mind. Maybe it wouldn't be fair, but it would be very human, and I think that's how Will would view Cody from this point on.

 

Yeah, yeah, Will's a guy and hormones are huge and yada yada yada, but I think in this case, Will's sense of responsibility, and his love for his sister...I can see that ruling over any physical appeal that Cody would have to him. I think before Paternity, I would have agreed that a Cody/Will hook-up is inevitable, but not after this story. I don't think it would make sense, character-wise, for Will to get with Cody. I don't think it would be as out of character as it would be for you to have JJ and Gathan have wild hot sex, but still out of character.

Edited February 9, 2013 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

Since when did you need ROTC to join the military? The right seem to always have this disjointed sense of reality and patriotism.

[PrivateTim]

Since when did you need ROTC to join the military? The right seem to always have this disjointed sense of reality and patriotism.

 

So this isn't the Soapbox and don't want to turn Mark's Forum into Soapbox Lite, but the point was that when ROTC was a required course at Yale, Harvard, et al, it exposed an elite that otherwise had little exposure, to military service. A good number of officers in WWII, Korea and Vietnam came out of the Ivy League. That dropped off once the ROTC was pushed off campus and it wasn't until 9-11 that you saw a return of some of those Ivy Leaguers

[methodwriter85]

That really does explain so much of why Mark associates military people as only being blue collar types, and why I have memories of knowing kids from white-collar families who joined up from high school and college.

 

You really bridged a generation gap between us there, Tim; one I didn't even realize existed until you pointed out the difference in the demographics of the army when Mark was enlistment age back in the early/mid-1980's, and when I was enlistment age back in the mid/late-2000's.

 

Good job there.    

 

I wonder who will join up, if any of them do. I definitely can't see Will joining up in the army. There's no possible way a guy who's that stubborn would ever listen to a drill sergeant. And JJ's way too soft.

 

Darius and Gathan, I could see it.

[MJ85]

Darius I could see as a good bet unless a compelling reason not to go gets dropped in his lap.

[Mark Arbour]

Thank you for explaining why I noticed a large amount of people who had joined up when I was in high school and the first half of college, and why I percieved that as a big surge even though Mark's numbers doesn't back that up. I think there's a little bit of a generation gap between myself and Mark in this regard- for Mark's generation, you didn't see white collar or white collar-aspirational people joining up. I think Mark has the perception that it's only blue collar people who sign up, because that's the way it was back in the 1980's when he was military-aged. For my generation, you were seeing a shift in the demographics of the people joining up- the fact that college tuition is like three or four times what it was in the 1980's probably has something to do with it. Kids from families that twenty years ago could have sent their kid to college when it was like 3 or 4 thousand for an entire year at a state school couldn't by the 2000's, when you could expect to pay at least 20k a year at even a relatively in-expensive state school.

 

I felt like there was something that I just wasn't conveying correctly to Mark in this regard, and Tim, you just explained what it was. Thanks for bridging a generation gap here. :2thumbs:

 

 

 

We weren't talking about the demographics of soldiers/enlistees at all, and I didn't even address that issue.  You were alleging there was a huge surge in enlistments, envisioning 9-11 as a Pearl Harbor moment, and I merely pointed out to you that wasn't the case.  There's no generation gap here at all.  You were simply wrong.     

 

 

 

 

I agree about Lou, but I don't think Cody's going happen. Cody is his sister's biological father, so there's something kind of squicky about having them hook up. Also, even though I don't think Will's going to hate Cody for this, I do think it bothers Will that Cody doesn't have it in him to be a father to his daughter. Family is very important to Will, and even though I think Tiffany's talk with him about Cody makes it so that Will can be friends with Cody, I can't see Will wanting to hook up with him. Will have a very strong sense of responsibility and what's right and what's wrong, and I think Cody would be permanently dinged in his mind. Maybe it wouldn't be fair, but it would be very human, and I think that's how Will would view Cody from this point on.

 

Yeah, yeah, Will's a guy and hormones are huge and yada yada yada, but I think in this case, Will's sense of responsibility, and his love for his sister...I can see that ruling over any physical appeal that Cody would have to him. I think before Paternity, I would have agreed that a Cody/Will hook-up is inevitable, but not after this story. I don't think it would make sense, character-wise, for Will to get with Cody. I don't think it would be as out of character as it would be for you to have JJ and Gathan have wild hot sex, but still out of character.

 

I can see that Will would let Cody's lack of interest in Maddy bother him, but Cody's not jumping into bed with Will anytime soon, so there's a lot of time for Will to mature and understand Cody's perspective on fatherhood, and there's a lot of time for Cody to maybe develop some paternal responsibility.  I don't think that sleeping with Cody would cause Will any squeamishness at all.  I would suspect that since Will grew up with Cody being around, and because he and Cody had a relatively tight relationship before Maddy even came into the picture, he wouldn't let that bother him too much.   

[methodwriter85]

I think the reason why it felt like a Pearl Harbour moment was that you had news stories about people joining up, who weren't the typical profile of people joined. I guess the fact that they did deem it newsworthy does point to the idea that it wasn't like World War II when people were coming out in droves. I'm just really hopeful that you're going to address the Iraq War in a pretty meaningful way, because even though it wasn't exactly a "Vietnam", there were a fair amount of people in my generation who were pretty impacted by it. I think the way you've written Will...he'd care, and he'd be pissed that his generation wasn't doing much to protest it because they were too busy downloading "My Humps" on their cell phones.

 

As for Cody, I think it's unlikely, but it's not something I think is impossible, and your explaination makes sense. The only thing I'd say is impossible would be JJ hooking up with Gathan, or any hockey player. Zach and Will certainly would never happen, either.

Edited February 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

I think the reason why it felt like a Pearl Harbour moment was that you had news stories about people joining up, who weren't the typical profile of people joined. I guess the fact that they did deem it newsworthy does point to the idea that it wasn't like World War II when people were coming out in droves. I'm just really hopeful that you're going to address the Iraq War in a pretty meaningful way, because even though it wasn't exactly a "Vietnam", there were a fair amount of people in my generation who were pretty impacted by it. I think the way you've written Will...he'd care, and he'd be pissed that his generation wasn't doing much to protest it because they were too busy downloading "My Humps" on their cell phones.

 

As for Cody, I think it's unlikely, but it's not something I think is impossible, and your explaination makes sense. The only thing I'd say is impossible would be JJ hooking up with Gathan, or any hockey player. Zach and Will certainly would never happen, either.

 

I think that Will may care about that stuff, but I don't see him getting pissed off that other people don't.  He's not into controlling other people, so if they don't get on board with what he wants, he'll probably be less upset about it than his father would be.  

 

Of the people you've listed as potential hook-ups, I'm not really ruling any of them out.  To do so would ignore how much they can develop over the next few CAP years.  I can, for example, see JJ messing around with a hockey player, because it's something he's not supposed to do.  A subtle way of rebellion.  And I can definitely see the potential for Zach and Will to hook up.  Zach showed us at the end of Poor Man's Son that he was learning to manipulate people more effectively.  He was a dick at 15, but in a couple of years, when he's 17 or 18, he may seem like a nice guy.  He probably won't be, but he may seem that way.  And it would be in Will's nature to give him the benefit of the doubt.  And to fuck him.  

[methodwriter85]

To do so would ignore how much they can develop over the next few CAP years. 

 

That's a good point. People can and do change, and the characters in CAP aren't static. When I was 23, if you had told me that I'd spend two years in literally the middle of nowhere Western Pennsylvania, and I'd actually love being there and would consider it the best two years of my life, I'd ask if you were on crack.

 

It'll be interesting to see if JJ becomes less effeminate over the next couple of years, because it seems like his fathers want to become more involved with him. It's interesting when that happens. I was very, very feminine at 13/14. Now at 27, people actually don't believe it at first when I tell them I'm gay, because I somehow come off as straight-acting to them. When I was about 22, I met some guys I knew from high school who couldn't believe how deep my voice had gotten, as opposed to the high-pitched girly voice I had for most of high school.  I wonder if JJ will go through something similiar, or if he'll follow the Johnny Weir mode of lots of makeup and designer purses.

Edited February 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Looking at the graph provided, is there another that lists raw enlistment numbers and the actual size of military during the same time period? Because in addition to a greater number of post 9-11 elistment (and that was my perceptions as well, and keep in mind that Tim, Jeremy, and I are all agreeing on something. All we need is Centex, and you have a conspiracy), there was also a huge number of forced re-enlistments and stop-lossed soldiers that were not allowed to leave the military, particularly in the higher enlisted ranks. Since that graph is of a percentage of enlistments vs re-enlistments, could that explain why the percentage of initial enlistments went down while all branches of the military, and the Army in particular, increased in size?

 

Edit: Taking another look at the chart, and the more I look at it the weirder it seems. It's displaying a percentage, but that is it's percentage? 88.1% of carreer soldiers (more than 10 years of service) re-enllist. Okay, I'll buy that, it seems accurate to what my sisters and my father reports, but 67.1% of what is initial enlistees? The total population turning 18? I rather doubt THAT. The total military is less than 1% of the American population at any one time, thought naturally the number of veterans is much higher. So, yeah. I'm kind of curious what I'm looking at there.

Edited February 10, 2013 by B1ue

[mmike1969]

Darius does not reminds me of someone who takes orders. Neither does Will or JJ.

 

Of course you had high re-enlistments during a time of relative peace. Retirement benefits were awesome.

[methodwriter85]

I could see Darius, if he put himself into the mindset, letting himself be molded into becoming a military guy. We know there's some interest there, and when 9/11 hits, I think there would be some need on Darius's part to prove that he's as loyal of an American as anybody else, once he starts getting some racist comments thrown his way. (*I* got racist comments from people who thought I was Arab, and I'm filipino.) Will, never. For that reason I couldn't see Will joining a frat, either. He's way too much of an  stubborn individualist. JJ would never work in the military because he'd take one look at sheets that were less than 800 thread count, toss his head, pick up his Prada suitcase, and leave.

 

I'm not saying it has to be anybody in the family, but I could see it being friends of their's, especially because Claremont fits the profile of the kind of town that would be sending a lot of guys and gals off to Iraq. Friends of Gathan, especially.

Edited February 11, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Darius does not reminds me of someone who takes orders. Neither does Will or JJ.

 

Of course you had high re-enlistments during a time of relative peace. Retirement benefits were awesome.

 

It would be nice to see Will and Darius learn that sometimes you have to take orders from other people.

 

I could see Darius, if he put himself into the mindset, letting himself be molded into becoming a military guy. We know there's some interest there, and when 9/11 hits, I think there would be some need on Darius's part to prove that he's as loyal of an American as anybody else, once he starts getting some racist comments thrown his way. (*I* got racist comments from people who thought I was Arab, and I'm filipino.) Will, never. For that reason I couldn't see Will joining a frat, either. He's way too much of an  stubborn individualist. JJ would never work in the military because he'd take one look at sheets that were less than 800 thread count, toss his head, pick up his Prada suitcase, and leave.

 

I'm not saying it has to be anybody in the family, but I could see it being friends of their's, especially because Claremont fits the profile of the kind of town that would be sending a lot of guys and gals off to Iraq. Friends of Gathan, especially.

 

I am guessing you weren't in a fraternity? My house in Berkeley had Asian, African American, Jewish, gay. Armenian and even some Democrats. This idea of fraternities and soroities as these WASPy institutions hasn't been true since the mid 1960's probably.

 

Does Darius have any identification at all with his Persian side? Does he think of himself as a Persian American? We've certainly never seen it and has anyone ever treated him like a Persian? By the way, Persians are not Arabs.....  you never want to make that mistake.

[Mark Arbour]

It would be nice to see Will and Darius learn that sometimes you have to take orders from other people.

 

 

I am guessing you weren't in a fraternity? My house in Berkeley had Asian, African American, Jewish, gay. Armenian and even some Democrats. This idea of fraternities and soroities as these WASPy institutions hasn't been true since the mid 1960's probably.

 

Does Darius have any identification at all with his Persian side? Does he think of himself as a Persian American? We've certainly never seen it and has anyone ever treated him like a Persian? By the way, Persians are not Arabs.....  you never want to make that mistake.

 

I would submit that your fraternity experience at Berkeley may not be representative of the rest of the country.  

[PrivateTim]

I would submit that your fraternity experience at Berkeley may not be representative of the rest of the country.  

 

Yes and no. I went to national conventions in college and to our leadership school when I was in college and have been back at leadership school as an instructor twice and to a national convention too. The music director from our national headquarters makes Stef look butch and I've served twice on the board of the "province" here in So Cal (USC, UCLA, Oxy, Cal St LA, CSUN, etc) and they too have much more diverse populations than my grandparents experienced when they were at USC and even diverse from my parent's days in the 70's.

[MJ85]

A gay guy getting into a social fraternity? It's do-able. The vibe I get as far as ones who would be accepting of gay guys and ones who would not be, is that it'd be pretty much hit-or-miss...but not so "out there" that it'd be so unrealistic. I don't, however, get a vibe that Will would really WANT to join one, though. Honestly...what for? A non-social Greek (and there are PLENTY of them out there!)...maybe. Depends on what it'd be.

 

As for Darius and the military...this is a guy who was all but bound for Annapolis at one point. Hello! How is this even still a question?

[B1ue]

 

 

PrivateTim, on 11 Feb 2013 - 08:41, said:

It would be nice to see Will and Darius learn that sometimes you have to take orders from other people.

 

 

I am guessing you weren't in a fraternity? My house in Berkeley had Asian, African American, Jewish, gay. Armenian and even some Democrats. This idea of fraternities and soroities as these WASPy institutions hasn't been true since the mid 1960's probably.

 

Does Darius have any identification at all with his Persian side? Does he think of himself as a Persian American? We've certainly never seen it and has anyone ever treated him like a Persian? By the way, Persians are not Arabs..... you never want to make that mistake.

 

It actually doesn't matter if Darius identifies with his Persian side or not. People will make comments. People that don't know him will immedietely trust him less, simply because he is darker than the rest of the cast. And, actually, yes, there have been moments in the stories where people have reacted to the color of his skin, if not specifically his racial background.

 

And, like Jeremy, I got called towel-head and other comments my senior year of high school, and a couple people from schools I played against *tried* to bully me, though that didn't exactly work out well for them. My father also experienced some friction.

Edited February 11, 2013 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

A gay guy getting into a social fraternity? It's do-able.

 

It is far more than do-able, it happens. not every house on every campus has openly gay members, but there are a good number of openly gay fraternity boys these days and a whole bunch in the closet.

 

It actually doesn't matter if Darius identifies with his Persian side or not. People will make comments. People that don't know him will immedietely trust him less, simply because he is darker than the rest of the cast. And, actually, yes, there have been moments in the stories where people have reacted to the color of his skin, if not specifically his racial background.

 

And, like Jeremy, I got called towel-head and other comments my senior year of high school, and a couple people from schools I played against *tried* to bully me, though that didn't exactly work out well for them. My father also experienced some friction.

 

I guess I wasn't quite clear. Not only does Darius not identify with his Persian side, but no one associates him as being Persian. As a mixed race kid (and there are a bunch of half white, half Persian guys running around LA) Darius probably looks Italian to most people and the people who know him and his family probably don't think of him as Persian because he doesn't look like or act like the pure Persian kids (of which LA also has a lot).

 

Of course we don't know what Darius looks like except inside our own minds, I just know what the half white/half Persian guys in LA look like and what the pure Persians look like and especially how the pure Persians act in LA. Don't you watch the Shahs of Sunset?

 

I thought you were Mexican B1ue? Certainly people can tell the difference between a Mexican and an Arab?

Edited February 11, 2013 by PrivateTim