9.11

[B1ue]

This chapter reminded me of how the adults on my dad's side used to talk in Spanish when they didn't want to kids to understand them. Except, we all took Spanish in elementary and high school, and by the time we were out of our teens we all understood enough to follow conversations, if not quite enough to participate in them. Not that we drew any attention to that detail for quite some time.

[PrivateTim]

This chapter reminded me of how the adults on my dad's side used to talk in Spanish when they didn't want to kids to understand them. Except, we all took Spanish in elementary and high school, and by the time we were out of our teens we all understood enough to follow conversations, if not quite enough to participate in them. Not that we drew any attention to that detail for quite some time.

 

Reminds me of the blonde haired, blue eyed swimmer I dated early in college, who looked liked he belonged on a Joseph Goebbels' recruiting poster, but in fact had two parents who were Cuban born refugees. He spoke Spanish like a native of Cuba despite being U.S. born and would shock the crap out of Mexican bus boys and waiters when we ate out. Don't these people watch Univision?

 

[John Prz]

Is in America not that common to study other languages? 

 

In Europe is more common to know your native one (Oh really?  ), english and usually another one (frequently one between German, Spanish and French). 

Most people aren't fluent in their third language but they know the minimum to survive with it.

[methodwriter85]

   Well, since these guys are fluent in Spanish, Italian, and French, I figure it's time for them to learn Chinese and Arabic. Those seem like the "hot, useful" languages for this decade. Especially if Stefan wants to get in on the building boom of Dubai:

 

 

   It's a shame that the economic collapse derailed the World Islands, which really would have been awesome to look at. In any event, how awesome is Dubai? It's like back in the early 20th century, when the United States was the leader in skyscrapers- now that torch has been passed on to Dubai, and they've done a beautiful job reaching for the sky.

 

   Anyway, I really like how the Zach and Will friendship/boyfriendship/whatevership is progressing. The scene on the roof was just sweet...awww, teenaged youth and elevated feelings at their best.

[John Prz]

   Anyway, I really like how the Zach and Will friendship/boyfriendship/whatevership is progressing. The scene on the roof was just sweet...awww, teenaged youth and elevated feelings at their best.

 

Am I the only one who is thinking Will is crazy? They had sex without a condom. (and it's the second time)

[PrivateTim]

Is in America not that common to study other languages? 

 

In Europe is more common to know your native one (Oh really?  ), english and usually another one (frequently one between German, Spanish and French). 

Most people aren't fluent in their third language but they know the minimum to survive with it.

 

It is usually required in high school to take foreign language, but the country is so big compared to countries in Europe the need to use other languages is minimal so you lose whatever language skills you had if you don't get a chance to use them.

 

For example, driving 1300km, from say Amsterdam to Milan could take you through 5 countries and at least 5, maybe 6 different languages so it becomes more important to know another language. English became somewhat the defacto common language of Europe. Some countries in Europe even have multiple official languages.

 

That doesn't mean a lot of Americans are not multilingual. In CA for example where the CAP families live the official ballots for elections come in seven different languages (English, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Tagalog and Vietnamese) and in neighborhoods of So Cal you can go places where you can hear Russian, Armenian, Thai, Hindi, Arabic and more languages spoken as the common daily language. Those people typically all speak English as well, but among their friends and families they revert to their native language, even generations later sometimes. Then their are pockets in the U.S. where a language like Creole or Cajun French has been spoken for hundreds of years and still remain and of course the myriad of Native American languages, so it is actually rather complicated.

[Kitt]

Is in America not that common to study other languages? 

 

In Europe is more common to know your native one (Oh really?  ), english and usually another one (frequently one between German, Spanish and French). 

Most people aren't fluent in their third language but they know the minimum to survive with it.

Tim's comments were comprehensive and quite true. He left out though the tendency for people here to assume things. I don't look french, so I must not speak french. I am obviously not deaf, so why would I be fluent in sign language?

[B1ue]

Am I the only one who is thinking Will is crazy? They had sex without a condom. (and it's the second time)

Oh my no, by no means. But it seems like a lot of the appeal of Zach to Will is that he is playing with fire.

[Mark Arbour]

It is usually required in high school to take foreign language, but the country is so big compared to countries in Europe the need to use other languages is minimal so you lose whatever language skills you had if you don't get a chance to use them.

 

For example, driving 1300km, from say Amsterdam to Milan could take you through 5 countries and at least 5, maybe 6 different languages so it becomes more important to know another language. English became somewhat the defacto common language of Europe. Some countries in Europe even have multiple official languages.

 

 

 

That's an excellent way to explain it.  I remember visiting Belgium with a friend of mine when I was in my 20s, and we stayed with his relatives for a night.  They only spoke French.  Neither one of us was even close to fluent, but we managed to communicate.  The lady was somewhat outraged that cultured young men like us didn't know how to speak French.  I explained that the closest French speaking community to us was in Quebec, and reminded her that she wouldn't really think their French was actually "French" anyway.

 

 

Am I the only one who is thinking Will is crazy? They had sex without a condom. (and it's the second time)

 

Oh my no, by no means. But it seems like a lot of the appeal of Zach to Will is that he is playing with fire.

 

Playing with fire; that's part of it. I think there are two other things that come into play here.  The first is that it's probably unrealistic to think that Will is always going to have protected sex when he's in a relationship.  I think that's especially true for him (and any guy) who is in his teens, because there's a hormonal rush, and a general feeling of invincibility, that makes them take the chance.  If anything, I think I may have shown Will being too concerned about safe sex. 

 

The second part is that this is Will's way of proving to Zach that he trusts him.  Zach knows that Will is nervous about it, but the fact that Will is literally putting his life in Zach's hands has to resonate with him. 

[Hermetically Sealed]

Thank you so much.  I'm glad you're here. 

 

I think, personally, that Be Rad is the second best story to start the series with.  At the risk or derailing this thread (and your comments), I'm wondering what other people think?

 

 

Be Rad was the story which I started on (as it was the current one being updated at the time). Halfway through I went straight on to CAP, though, and read up through to the current chapters (at the time). So I would say if possible, go back to the beginning, if just to give events in later books/chapters context.

[PrivateTim]

Thank you so much.  I'm glad you're here. 

 

I think, personally, that Be Rad is the second best story to start the series with.  At the risk or derailing this thread (and your comments), I'm wondering what other people think?

 

I came to GA because I discovered Dom Luka.

 

I knew of Mark Arbour from having read On the Mark someplace else (still my all time favorite MA story), but avoided CAP because I was put off by the title "academic predator" because it made me think the story was going to be about something else other than what it turned out to be. I actually started reading the Odyssey series first until I finally gave CAP a try and then I started at Book 1 and read through chronologically. I actually put Odyssey aside while I read CAP because I had a hard time remembering which characters were which stories.

 

I have no idea how Mr. Arbour keeps them straight in his own head.

[Kitt]

  If anything, I think I may have shown Will being too concerned about safe sex. 

 

 

I don't think so when you consider how many people the family has lost to aids. Sometimes things just resonate. The lack of condom use lately really says something considering how careful Will has been with most of his liaisons

 

 

 

I have no idea how Mr. Arbour keeps them straight in his own head.

Supreme effort and lots of notebook paper?

.

[methodwriter85]

If anything, I think I may have shown Will being too concerned about safe sex.

 

I think you're reflecting the fact that Brad, Stefan, and JP have lost a lot of people to AIDS, so Will has often been careful, but at the same time...he's 15. You're invicible up until you're about 25 or so.

 

And if we're being honest here, people in Will's generation just aren't that concerned about AIDS. I remember talking to Adam Phillips, who is about Matt's age, and he talked about how he used to get tested regularly when he was in college and not in a comitted relationship...and he seemed more concerned about it than people my age and younger are.  We have two things going on here- the first is that AIDS stopped being a death sentence by the late 1990's, which is when people Will's age started getting old enough for the "sex conversation". Secondly, "abstinence only" sex education started getting mandated in public schools when Will's cohorts were in middle school and high school...my health education teacher actually told us, "Well, I can't really tell you this, but please use a condom." It started off with Clinton and then got pushed hard by the Bush administration.

 

I didn't bother with condoms because I stick to oral sex so I didn't learn how to put one on until I was 21, and my friend told me about how this girl he was hooking up  with didn't know how to put a condom on him.

 

It feels like a distinct difference from Gen Xers who came of age during Bush I and Clinton Era(people around Private Tim's age in that late 30's to mid-40's range), because they seemed pretty concerned about avoiding Aids in a way that my co-horts, and the current late teenaged/early 20-somethings aren't.

 

  I think the people in what would be Courtney's age co-hort (the people born in the early/mid-90's) are probably even worse than Will's co-hort. I read a comment from YouTube with someone who didn't know what AIDS was. I pray to god they weren't past middle school age, but I wouldn't be surprised if a high school kid asked that.

 

  There's a really interesting documentary I watched, called The Education of Shelby Knox, about a young girl trying to get comprehensive sex education in early 2000's Lubbock, Texas.

 

 

   Mark's flat out told me that he's not going to have any characters into the whole abstinence only, chastity movement of the 2000's, which is understandable because they're in pretty liberal areas. Still, it's pretty crazy stuff- they actually hold "purity balls" where girls make a vow to wait until marriage and it's like a father/daughter dance. I kinda thought it'd be funny to see Will lust after some hot guy and then found out that he's some hardcore Christian virgin purity type. I once met a 20-year old preacher's kid, actually pretty good-looking, who told me that he had never engaged in ANY kind of sexual activity, which I thought was a shame.

 

    Because my school was near a tabernacle, we actually had a fair amount of Mormons so I knew a bunch of kids that "pledged to wait"...although considering that most Mormons are married with kids by their early 20's that's probably not that hard.

Edited January 27, 2014 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I didn't learn how to put one on until I was 21,

 

Dude, effin' A, it ain't like programming a VCR, the things are pretty self explanatory....

[TetRefine]

Dude, effin' A, it ain't like programming a VCR, the things are pretty self explanatory....

 

They even come with picture directions on a neatly folded 'How To' guide in every box you buy.

 

We were taught how to do it in middle school health class, which I thought was pretty standard. But I guess the Northeast is just that much farther ahead then the rest of the country. 

[methodwriter85]

   Tet, I AM from the NorthEast, and they wouldn't touch condom use in middle school or in my 9th grade health class. Then again, Delaware's this weird place where things can be very ultra liberal, but every once in awhile things get inexplicably conservative, like how we can't buy beer in gas stations. I'm guess we had to have "abstinence only" education in my state because Delaware appreciated the funding.

[Kitt]

The problem with "abstinence only" sex ed is its unrealistic.  There are a lot of unwanted pregnancies with the "just say no" method!

[Mark Arbour]

The problem with "abstinence only" sex ed is its unrealistic.  There are a lot of unwanted pregnancies with the "just say no" method!

 

Which is why you don't see me writing about it.

[methodwriter85]

   It'd be funny for Zach to run into Abstinence Poster Boy Tim Tebow at some point, though.

[Mark Arbour]

   It'd be funny for Zach to run into Abstinence Poster Boy Tim Tebow at some point, though.

 

Funny?  I think it would be hot.  I'll bet Tebow would be totally into some kinky man love. 

[methodwriter85]

    Well, yeah, that was implied there. Tebow can tell himself it doesn't count because there's no vagina.

 

    I think I'm rooting for Tebow to eventually end up with Manti Te'o. They'd be one hell of a cute Christian fanatic couple who tell everybody that they're "lifelong roommates."

Edited January 28, 2014 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Time for thread cross-posting!

 

 

methodwriter85, on 27 Jan 2014 - 9:39 PM, said:

   Matt, probably followed by JJ. Will and Darius are too much about family duty and honor for them to ever really run off and start a new life away from their family.

 

Mark Arbour, on 27 Jan 2014 - 8:57 PM, said:

I don't see that happening.  Will is much too focused on his family to bail like that.  In addition, he's got way too much to lose by bailing on them.  I think the character I see most likely to do that (say screw it, and run away) is Matt.

 

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps I think Will is the most likely to say fuck it all and take off because it has already happened at least once?

 

 

So basically, I proposed that Will would, if his characterization continues along the path he's taking, take off with his lover of the moment and cut all ties behind him. Mark and Jeremy disagreed, saying that Will is too focused on his family.

 

I really don't think this is the case. I honestly am not sure that's ever been true for Will.

 

I don't require that all characters be as family focused as, say, Wade, but Wade walks the walk. He's clearly focused on his family and his responsibilities within it, and that includes getting along with members he'd probably rather never see again. His mother is basically evil, but he'll still invite her to Thanksgiving.

 

Will wouldn't have done that; Will would have tried to kill her by now. He certainly would have arranged to have her arrested, and that's okay for his character. I believe him as a character that is willing to put individualism as his highest ideal, and that sees the entire world as ready to act against him at a moments notice. At this point, in his eyes, just about everyone has failed him. It makes sense for that kind of character to react to everyone as a possible threat, even those that are the most intimate and most trusted. I think that's why I am okay with him falling for Zach so hard, Zach might be an emotional threat, but no more so than letting Brad into his inner circle.

 

But I don't believe him as being family oriented. He doesn't seem to need his family like Wade, JP, or Gathan does. He likes them, most of them anyways, but he could live without them. Something he's proven a couple of times when he ran away, and then sued for emancipation.

[Kitt]

I'm not sure I am ready to accept the idea that Will isn't into family the way you say. I will give you that he is trying fiercely to view himself as independent. You site his running away and subsequent emancipation. But he not only came back, but is living at Escorial. I know a few people who were emancipated as teens. The first thing they did was to find work and living arrangements as far from the family as they could. They viewed the emancipation as a divorce from family and bad situations.  Will appears to me to want more control over decisions in his life. In any other family that could have been obtained in other ways, but as controlling as Brad can be I think it took something as drastic as the emancipation to start the ball rolling. I am sure some will say its just Will wanting his cake and to eat it too, and to a point I can agree with that, but wouldn't we all do just that if we could?

[rjo]

I agree with Kitt. Will wants to be his own person. Control himself, and not others. He could have remained in Maui at his house there, but he returned to California. His ties to his father, Robbie and his brothers were too great. And that is not to mention  JP and Stef . Reread those chapters and see how their suffering at his being gone bothered him, maybe more than them. If you look carefully at Will and his behavior since that time, you can see a moderation. I agree it is not complete at first, but a slow change. If he didn't care about his family, like some have stated, why would he care if Robbie, Jeanine and Hank had died? Why would he work so hard to help his father get over the losses? Mark said time and time again Will is a work in progress, not a prefect creation. Then who is? Not any of these characters are. All are broken, That is why I loved them and this story as much as I do. Any of us could be a Brad, or Stef, or JP or maybe even Will. If he did not care about family, all those dinners would be so boring. Would he have gone to the hospital to visit Marie or JJ? Offered to move so Robbie and Brad would have a better relationship? Would he have worked so hard to improve his relationship with Jeanine? or with Hank?  If he did not care about his family, why would he call JP and ask for forgiveness?  Or try to make things right with Claire or Isidore? Why would he move into Escorial? He cares.

 

I believe some people can't get over Will's emancipation. That one act, which Brad agreed to, seems to have damned Will in their eyes. I however disagree with that, I believe it gave Will the freedom to become the person he was meant to be. Remember, it was not Will's idea but his lawyer's. Will only wanted to not be under Jeanine's thumb. A women at the time needed to be instutionalized. It was not the emancipation which showed disregard for family, but because of the emancipation, Will could continue to love his family. It gave him free will. He could have left. Gave up on these people, but he didn't. Not then, not now ( dealing with the aftermath of 9 11)  nor in the future. That is not who Will is. Will is kind of like Wade. Just that Wade is older and has it more together and Will has found Zach and Wade maybe about to lose Matt.

Edited January 29, 2014 by rjo

[Mark Arbour]

An interesting character discussion. 

 

I'm not sure if being fiercely independent and having strong family ties are mutually exclusive.  Logically, that would seem to be the case, but if you look into it deeper, I think they can coexist.  Will isn't willing to let his family (or anyone) control him or his life.  To me, that's a very reasonable attribute for him to have, especially when you consider how controlling his father has been in the past.  But as long as they're not trying to run his life, his family is very important to him. 

 

Going back to the whole incident with the Bastille Day party, where Will was sidelined: that evoked a very strong reaction from him, because it hit on something very important to him. 

 

But taking a scenario that B1ue sort of hypothesized (I'll flesh it out a bit), let's assume that Will and Zach truly did fall in love and were aware that they were in love, and decided to run off and be by themselves somewhere.  To do that, we have to ignore Zach's key motivator (football), so let's do that.  I think that in that situation, Will would be much more likely to fight it out with his family (big surprise) and only if he felt that everyone was against him do I see him making that kind of decision.  And in reality, for everyone to be against him (especially JP), it would probably register in his mind that he was making a bad decision, and he'd probably reconsider.  In all of his conflicts, he has generally looked to those people he respects the most for validation.  Without that, he doesn't usually make rash decisions.