HMS Valiant

[Timothy M.]

I think that unless this bears fruit it will be largely forgotten except for the confrontation with Caroline.

 

As far as I recall Caroline cannot have any more children. Something about the last birth doing damage. However, nothing is certain and she might get pregnant but be unable to deliver the child. Could be another chance for Dr. Jack to the rescue

[Daddydavek]

I think Ricky is forgetting that in Granger's time, a man being found out as being somewhat indiscreet with a married woman was considered much less an affront than a married woman being found out publicly.  Chauvinistic but true for the time....

[Timothy M.]

I think Ricky is forgetting that in Granger's time, a man being found out as being somewhat indiscreet with a married woman was considered much less an affront than a married woman being found out publicly.  Chauvinistic but true for the time....

 

What do you mean 'in Granger's time' ? It's still that way ! Even in tolerant Scandinavia.

[Mark Arbour]

As far as I recall Caroline cannot have any more children. Something about the last birth doing damage. However, nothing is certain and she might get pregnant but be unable to deliver the child. Could be another chance for Dr. Jack to the rescue

 

A good estimate of the chance of a woman dying in childbirth was between 6-10% in this era.  That does not include a woman with reproductive problems.  For a woman like Caroline, the chances would be much much higher.  C-Sections were virtually unheard of back then, and the concept of cutting a baby out of a woman's womb, with the lack of sterile instruments used, was pretty horrific. 

[Timothy M.]

I know you're right, Mark, but now you're scaring me. 

Wish I'd never brought it up.

[Westie]

Mark, in the Story Note introduction to this fantastic story you describe a Guinea being worth 25-30 shillings. This surprised me as I have always known Guineas to be worth 21 shillings. So I did the unthinkable and did some historic research (yet again). I found the official site of the Royal Mint, which is the body that produces British  coins. ---  www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/guinea 

 

I quote the relevant part about the value of the guinea " ..... Its actual value fluctuated until finally stabilising, in 1717, at 21 shillings, a monetary unit used up decimalisation in 1971." 

 

The last Guinea was actually minted in 1813.

 

You are right, in that the guinea would exchange at the treasury, the Bank and the mint for 21 shillings.

 

But the war with France took its toll, and gold was scarce.  in 1799 the treasury had to cease production of the Guinea because  it was costing more in gold than the face value of the coins.  Based on this, you could usually get a much higher exchange rate in the "real economy" than you could "officially".  

 

In giving a view of purchasing power parity, a 25-30 shilling estimate of the purchasing power of a Guinea would be fairly accurate.

[Westie]

It always astonishes me that a guinea (21 shillings) was equivalent to 1 pound and 1 shilling. What an impractical unit of currency! (Not that there was anything practical about predecimalization British currency.) Apparently the guinea was a better class of currency than the pound. According to this website http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/moneyold.htm, "A guinea was considered a more gentlemanly amount than £1. You paid tradesmen, such as a carpenter, in pounds but gentlemen, such as an artist, in guineas."

 

Also note that the Guinea is still used today.... in horse racing.  Prizes in races, and auctions of racehorses, are still conducted in Guineas and then converted to a modern equivalent.  

 

And £sd was and is infinitely practical.... it just required you to be able to multiply by 12 instead of 10.  Easy Peasy!

[Mark Arbour]

You are right, in that the guinea would exchange at the treasury, the Bank and the mint for 21 shillings.

 

But the war with France took its toll, and gold was scarce.  in 1799 the treasury had to cease production of the Guinea because  it was costing more in gold than the face value of the coins.  Based on this, you could usually get a much higher exchange rate in the "real economy" than you could "officially".  

 

In giving a view of purchasing power parity, a 25-30 shilling estimate of the purchasing power of a Guinea would be fairly accurate.

 

Thanks West.  We had this discussion in a different thread, and that's exactly the rationale I used when adjusting those numbers.

[ricky]

regarding the roll of man and wife. lets not forget two things here.

first, granger is ahead of his time

second is that granger and caroline are not in a normal relationship. the problem as I see it is this. they were seen by gossips and she did not bury her pride to notify him of the possible damage to the family name. and waiting to tell him gave the footman time to tell others.

Its an easy enough fix. hand the footman over to the press to shut him up and have a serious conversation with caroline. if granger plays the daddy card too much she may get pissed enough to out george to daddy in her own defense. I don't know how well this would play out.

[ricky]

WELL, back from Berlin and really anticipated having the chance to read the lates chapter and to find a feast of comments about it. Well the first part is true enough. I just had the chance to read it and WOW! I can't wait to find out about Freddie. This can't destroy the relationship between he and Granger. He's the one Granger is meant to grow old with. It just is. At least that's my hopes. He's been one of my favorites.

So the questions are really will it become public or not; will Cavendish and Granger's relationship survive this and finally what will Caroline do about this. One disturbing bit is the possibility of her reputation being damaged beyond repair. Will she give Granger up to his father if he privately attacks her? Will his propensity for men become known to his father and will it make a difference in how proud he is in George? This has the possibility of a serious domino effect for George.

 

Are there no other opinions or is everybody still holding their breath waiting for the other shoe to drop?

 

Nice writing Mark. I'm not sure I like the dark direction so much because it dashes my hopes for the future. But . . . you have a wonderful gift of story development.

[Mark Arbour]

WELL, back from Berlin and really anticipated having the chance to read the lates chapter and to find a feast of comments about it. Well the first part is true enough. I just had the chance to read it and WOW! I can't wait to find out about Freddie. This can't destroy the relationship between he and Granger. He's the one Granger is meant to grow old with. It just is. At least that's my hopes. He's been one of my favorites.

So the questions are really will it become public or not; will Cavendish and Granger's relationship survive this and finally what will Caroline do about this. One disturbing bit is the possibility of her reputation being damaged beyond repair. Will she give Granger up to his father if he privately attacks her? Will his propensity for men become known to his father and will it make a difference in how proud he is in George? This has the possibility of a serious domino effect for George.

 

Are there no other opinions or is everybody still holding their breath waiting for the other shoe to drop?

 

Nice writing Mark. I'm not sure I like the dark direction so much because it dashes my hopes for the future. But . . . you have a wonderful gift of story development.

 

Thanks Ricky.  There's a lot of damage control to do here, but the Duke gave Granger a very good game plan.  I think that if it works out as the Duke envisions, then Caroline will be able to save her rep.  She, George, and their allies will simply portray this whole issue as malicious gossip among servants.  I cannot imagine that anyone would believe a footman (or other servant) over the statements of the gentlemen (important distinction!) who were purportedly involved.

[ricky]

Well that narrows down part of the issue. I mean divorce was all but forbidden by the church. The remaining questions though remain an issue. Especially getting outed to the Duke!

[Westie]

Well that narrows down part of the issue. I mean divorce was all but forbidden by the church. The remaining questions though remain an issue. Especially getting outed to the Duke!

 

This wasn't an enlightened enough time... outing George essentially meant revealing that she was unable to satisfy her partner.  It cast just as much of a pall over her own reputation as to George's.  This nuclear option, would also be mutually assured destruction.

[Daddydavek]

This wasn't an enlightened enough time... outing George essentially meant revealing that she was unable to satisfy her partner.  It cast just as much of a pall over her own reputation as to George's.  This nuclear option, would also be mutually assured destruction.

Yes, but "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is more than just a saying......

 

So somehow George is going to have to reconcile with Carolyn as well for this to work and that may be the hardest task of all.

[ricky]

Wow. Queen of manipulation. Almost worthy of Davina! And for her to deal with it as she has once confronted . . . wow, I'm speechless. So glad that Freddie showed up to make amends. I think Granger's assertions to the gov's of the kids was not a good move. It shows discord between Caroline and George. This is going to get ugly. It already is. I wonder how long before George feels William will be better off with his father the Duke! And Davida and Co have not been heard from in some time. I wonder what George's return will be like.

[impunity]

Mark Arbor said: Bah. The Fourth of July merely promotes and exacerbates that insidious force: nationalism. :-)

 

I have to disagree completely. There is nothing insidious about nationalism in this, my adopted, country. It's about as blatant as you can get!  

 

Of course, from George's perspective, this would be the anniversary of the day that His Majesty lost one of his most profitable colonies.

Edited July 4, 2014 by impunity

[Timothy M.]

I actually have faith in Caroline's intelligence and social skills. Therefore I think she'll concede defeat, apologize to Granger and Cavendish, and explain to Granger why she tried to get more influence and support. Hopefully she'll also have learnt not to do these things behind her husband's back and not to jeopardize her reputation again.

[Never Surrender]

Also note that the Guinea is still used today.... in horse racing.  Prizes in races, and auctions of racehorses, are still conducted in Guineas and then converted to a modern equivalent.  

 

And £sd was and is infinitely practical.... it just required you to be able to multiply by 12 instead of 10.  Easy Peasy!

 

Pulling this forum straight back off topic, but every auction (admittedly most have been horse auctions, although never to Ascot or Newmarket for the racehorses! but i have also been to livestock and poultry auctions) i have been to in the UK has been conducted in guineas in the past and still is today. A guinea is still worth approximately £1.05 (1 pound and 1 shilling), and in the olden days the auctioneers used to take the shilling as their commission for selling the horse They will often have an electronic board displaying the amount in guineas with the amount in pounds sterling next to it. Hopelessly impractical and i have seen more than one person caught out by it. Just shows that guineas are still used at all levels of auctioneering, not just in the world of gentlemen

[Westie]

Pulling this forum straight back off topic, but every auction (admittedly most have been horse auctions, although never to Ascot or Newmarket for the racehorses! but i have also been to livestock and poultry auctions) i have been to in the UK has been conducted in guineas in the past and still is today. A guinea is still worth approximately £1.05 (1 pound and 1 shilling), and in the olden days the auctioneers used to take the shilling as their commission for selling the horse They will often have an electronic board displaying the amount in guineas with the amount in pounds sterling next to it. Hopelessly impractical and i have seen more than one person caught out by it. Just shows that guineas are still used at all levels of auctioneering, not just in the world of gentlemen

 

Indeed.  I remember the consternation caused when Christie's switched from Guinea to pound.... though that was mostly a cover to increase their commission from 5% of £ purchase price on top to 7% flat rate deducted at final bid.

 

But yes, most "blood stock" auctions are still in Guineas... incidentally there are some other anomalies too.  For instance, certain payments from the College of Arms in London are denominated in Guineas.

[Westie]

Yes, but "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is more than just a saying......

 

It's a poem.  And it's misquoted

 

Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned

I mentioned this not to be pedantic or the quote police, but because I think the full original quote is much more beautiful.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Westie

[Timothy M.]

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

I've gotten to the point with sex scenes that if they don't seem unique and interesting to me, I don't write them, assuming they won't feel that way to you.

 

ANY sex scene you write with Granger is interesting - not to mention hot.  I've yet to come across one that felt boring or unnecessary to the plot.

 

But more to the point, the intimate trysts usually have a purpose in showing us how Granger feels about a specific man. And in this case we'd know the state of their friendship from how he and Cavendish had sex that night. Plus you'd hinted at Cavendish being excited about being Granger's 'slave' - this sounds unique to me.

 

I'd suggest a poll  but I'm fairly confident most of your Bridgemont fans would support the inclusion of as many of Granger's erotic encounters you can manage to depict.

[Timothy M.]

I just got home from a visit to Athens. Made me think of the 'Elgin marbles' and wonder if you are embroiling Granger in this much disputed theft of Greek national treasure from Parthenon.

[Westie]

I just got home from a visit to Athens. Made me think of the 'Elgin marbles' and wonder if you are embroiling Granger in this much disputed theft of Greek national treasure from Parthenon.

 

Some might consider your use of the word "theft" to be inflammatory and offensive... but I would merely state that it is in legal terms inaccurate.  This is not  a matter of debate, but of settled law, which is why the Greek Government have been unsuccessful in their attempts to mount a legal case for the marble's return. It is why their only option is to resort to "moral" arguments and diplomatic pressure.

 

Regardless, what is clear is that the marbles would not be around at all to enjoy today if they had been left in Greece.  The whole reason behind their removal was that Lord Elgin had found that the sculptures recorded in a previous survey had been taken by the Ottomans to be burned in order to extract the lime.  The same fate awaited the rest.

 

Regardless, Elgin's work with the marbles commenced in 1801, and so I doubt that George's stay would be extended so long as to encompass that.

[Timothy M.]

I'm happy to use other words like acquisition if you like, but you'll note I very carefully didn't say who stole the marbles as opposed to who bought them afterwards.

 

However, the old (and maybe once valid) argument of the marbles being safer at British Museum definitely sounds hollow when you stand in the new impressive museum built a short distance from Akropolis.

 

In any case, you're quite right about the matter being a question of morals - against the greater might of money and influence.

[ricky]

SPEAKING of losing ones marbles . . . I can't wait to see what miseries await Lord Granger as he delivers the Elgins to their much too distant new home.