Timothy M. Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 To celebrate Bastille Day, Chapter 39 will be uploaded sometime tonight (probably), so check back. It's up and I'm doing a small victory dance right now. Thanks Mark 2
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 To be fair with Wade on the Riley stuff...it's a soap. Little kids are pretty much seen but not heard, and if Mark put in parental moment after parental moment in the story, it'd get boring. And we've only followed Wade's POV for one chapter in this story- we can't even really judge what kind of parent Wade is. It's like what Sharon said to me one time where I said that I didn't think JP and JJ had a close relationship- she said something to the effect of, "How do you know that? For all we know, JP and JJ have weekly lunches where they discuss everything under the sun. We're not privy to every moment in these character's lives." Mark did say that he doesn't see Wade becoming the "at home at 5 p.m. and playing with the kids on their lawn" type because Wade's a bit too ambitious for that. I can clearly see that with Will, but Mark's got a point about it probably not being the type of parent that Wade will turn into. Actually, I can see that with Matt too.
Kitt Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Not being a home at 5 and play on the lawn sort of dad doesn't necessarily mean he is a poor parent either. I don't recall JP ever playing on the lawn at Escorial with Brad, Clair, Billy or Ace, and he was still a pretty awesome dad. 2
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Not being a home at 5 and play on the lawn sort of dad doesn't necessarily mean he is a poor parent either. I don't recall JP ever playing on the lawn at Escorial with Brad, Clair, Billy or Ace, and he was still a pretty awesome dad. That is an excellent point, one that us career dads appreciate! I was thinking that when Riley goes to baseball practice, Matt's more likely to be in the stands than Wade is, although I'll be Wade makes it to the games. There really isn't anything quite as boring as watching a little league game of 5-6 year olds. 1
Kitt Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 There really isn't anything quite as boring as watching a little league game of 5-6 year olds. Sure there is! Try watching a horseback riding lesson where the rider still hasn't caught on to posting on the correct diagonal after more than a year of lessons! 1
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Sure there is! Try watching a horseback riding lesson where the rider still hasn't caught on to posting on the correct diagonal after more than a year of lessons! I was probably that guy. I was never very good at posting. My friends used to give me a bad time, telling me that I either had the horse walking or at a cantor, with no in-between.
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Mark, I just read your response to my review. So now I know that this is your resolution of the Matt / Wade story line. It's your story as i have said before and of course you can't please everyone...and you didn't. I could go on forever but there is no point. Just once I would love to see a gay relationship that was commited and monogamous, where they only love each other and no one else...and I foolishly hoped for that with Matt and Wade and it's three books later. I would love to be able to relate to someone in CAP but it is obviously not meant to be and that's my problem, not yours. I will go away and lick my wounds now.
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Mark, I just read your response to my review. So now I know that this is your resolution of the Matt / Wade story line. It's your story as i have said before and of course you can't please everyone...and you didn't. I could go on forever but there is no point. Just once I would love to see a gay relationship that was commited and monogamous, where they only love each other and no one else...and I foolishly hoped for that with Matt and Wade and it's three books later. I would love to be able to relate to someone in CAP but it is obviously not meant to be and that's my problem, not yours. I will go away and lick my wounds now. There are six chapters left. I think you should see how things work out before you get too upset. Having said that, Matt and Wade have never had that kind of relationship (monogamous), so to pin all your hopes on that suddenly happening is a bit risky. 1
Bucket1 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 To be fair with Wade on the Riley stuff...it's a soap. Little kids are pretty much seen but not heard, and if Mark put in parental moment after parental moment in the story, it'd get boring. And we've only followed Wade's POV for one chapter in this story- we can't even really judge what kind of parent Wade is. It's like what Sharon said to me one time where I said that I didn't think JP and JJ had a close relationship- she said something to the effect of, "How do you know that? For all we know, JP and JJ have weekly lunches where they discuss everything under the sun. We're not privy to every moment in these character's lives." Mark did say that he doesn't see Wade becoming the "at home at 5 p.m. and playing with the kids on their lawn" type because Wade's a bit too ambitious for that. I can clearly see that with Will, but Mark's got a point about it probably not being the type of parent that Wade will turn into. I think the Riley question is important because it shows just how infatuated Wade is with Alex. To some extent I can understand Wade would devalue his relationship with Matt but he seemed committed to making a life for him and Riley. The house in Boston was bought so that Riley would be living there. Wade will never be the "at home at 5pm" Dad, thats why living in the same house was so important 1
Bucket1 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 There are six chapters left. I think you should see how things work out before you get too upset. Having said that, Matt and Wade have never had that kind of relationship (monogamous), so to pin all your hopes on that suddenly happening is a bit risky. Didn't Matt offer to be monogamous in the past? I know that it didn't happen but the offer was on the table. I'm going to have to reread previous books and look again at Matt and Wade as a couple. Was Matt being the "wild child" because thats what he thought Wade wanted? Mark Arbour, you are a wicked wicked man and as I said in my review, I now crown you King of the Emotional Rollercoaster - Long live the King
Henson Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Gotta wonder how that conversation would've gone if Matt's ego weren't at a low point, and Wade hadn't worked things out so it would be had in the midst of afterglow. "Hey, I really love this guy. He's probably way better than you are for me, except the sex sucks. I'd still choose him over you though, if he were able to really come out. But you're cool, I guess." 2
Kitt Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Didn't Matt offer to be monogamous in the past? I know that it didn't happen but the offer was on the table. As I recall, yes he did offer to stop sleeping around but it was obvious during the conversation it would not be from a desire to only be with Wade, it was because that is what he thought Wade wanted. Wade turned it down because he knew it would not have worked back then, and most certainly would have caused many more problems in the relationship than the extra curricular activities did. Things have changed in all the characters since then. Perhaps now Matt is ready for a one on one committed relationship. Unfortunately just now Wade does not seem to be. 2
Bucket1 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Gotta wonder how that conversation would've gone if Matt's ego weren't at a low point, and Wade hadn't worked things out so it would be had in the midst of afterglow. "Hey, I really love this guy. He's probably way better than you are for me, except the sex sucks. I'd still choose him over you though, if he were able to really come out. But you're cool, I guess." Wade is his mother's son 2
Bucket1 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 As I recall, yes he did offer to stop sleeping around but it was obvious during the conversation it would not be from a desire to only be with Wade, it was because that is what he thought Wade wanted. Wade turned it down because he knew it would not have worked back then, and most certainly would have caused many more problems in the relationship than the extra curricular activities did. Things have changed in all the characters since then. Perhaps now Matt is ready for a one on one committed relationship. Unfortunately just now Wade does not seem to be. If I remember correctly, I thought this made sense at the time - they were both "young, hung and full of cum". It is interesting to note that even back then Matt was prepared to forsake his own desires for Wade.
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 There are six chapters left. I think you should see how things work out before you get too upset. Having said that, Matt and Wade have never had that kind of relationship (monogamous), so to pin all your hopes on that suddenly happening is a bit risky. Trust me Mark, I have no hopes or expectations whatsoever. There is only futility in that. And really nobody has had that kind of relationship (at least not for any length of time). You make the choices Mark and we are along for the ride.I definitely get that. So I feel like I got gut punched...it goes with the territory. I have a lot of feelings right now and none of them are good and don't expect you to understand that or me...as I already said, it is not your problem...It's mine.You are a great writer with a huge following...that is not an issue..the choices of what happens to these characters I love is what gives me grief. I will say it again...It is your story, not mine.
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 As I recall, yes he did offer to stop sleeping around but it was obvious during the conversation it would not be from a desire to only be with Wade, it was because that is what he thought Wade wanted. Wade turned it down because he knew it would not have worked back then, and most certainly would have caused many more problems in the relationship than the extra curricular activities did. Things have changed in all the characters since then. Perhaps now Matt is ready for a one on one committed relationship. Unfortunately just now Wade does not seem to be. On June 12,2002 (two months ago) Matt made the offer for a monogamous relationship even if they only saw each other once a month and HE MEANT IT. When he said Wade had to do the same, Wade said he didn't think he could...that he needed to be free to see other guys while in Boston. Matt offered earlier in their relationship but Wade turned it down.
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Gotta wonder how that conversation would've gone if Matt's ego weren't at a low point, and Wade hadn't worked things out so it would be had in the midst of afterglow. "Hey, I really love this guy. He's probably way better than you are for me, except the sex sucks. I'd still choose him over you though, if he were able to really come out. But you're cool, I guess." To me that is a very accurate way of descibing what really happened...I tried hard to think positively about where Wade/Mark was coming from but there was an ugliness too it that really rocked my faith...and after Mark's comments on my review, I reaized that this was it...and my hopes like Matt's were built on a house of cards...It's time to let go
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Wade is his mother's son Mark is very defensive of Wade and I respect that...but I think you have a point. There is a cold calculated aspect to Wade's actions here...not matter what happened in the past, this is now and Wade gets to keep his royal blueblood aristocrat Earl on his arm as long as I guess he decides he wants him for (and Mark gets to keep his tie between the two great series..I figure that plays a factor) and will continue to have lousy sex with him because he is so much better than Matt in every other way (which will continue to hurt Matt,no matter what he says because while he is just a character he is also human) and he will still keep his relationship going with Matt in Chicago because the sex is amazing and It fills Wade's needs. If I was Matt i would always be wondering when Wade was going to dump him again...because he will always know that in every other way, he is Wade's second choice. And if Wade does deign to move him up to first position it will be because Alex is no longer viable as Wade's partner because of his obligations. It kind of does sound like mommie dearest in action. For me this is all so beyond sad and makes me incredibly bitter (my problem) because the alternative would have been for Wade to actually choose ONE person and ONE relationship and stop being greedy. But taking Matt up on his offer for a commited ,monogamous relationship is just not done and yes I am bitter about that. It isn't because of long distance or logistics(they are uber rich). Matt, with his connections could eventually transfer or even immediately, to Boston if they chose that course. This is about something else altogether...and while it hurts, I/we have to accept it because all the whining(yeah i get that I am whining) in the world won't change it. As Mark commented, there is nothing wrong with Wade having his fun with the Earl in Boston cause Matt will be doing the same thing in Chicago with possibly Cam...and all is good in the CAP universe...except that to me that is not what people who profess love do to each other...It is probably just me,but I actually find this insulting on some level and a betrayal of what love really is. I am done.
Timothy M. Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Gotta wonder how that conversation would've gone if Matt's ego weren't at a low point, and Wade hadn't worked things out so it would be had in the midst of afterglow. "Hey, I really love this guy. He's probably way better than you are for me, except the sex sucks. I'd still choose him over you though, if he were able to really come out. But you're cool, I guess." I don't understand how you can reinterpret Wade's actual words to mean that sentence above. “I don’t love him as much as I love you,” Wade said, emphasizing the present tense. “I don’t know if I love him at all. I know I’m infatuated with him, but I don’t know if it’s love. Like I said, I have fun with him, and we’re good together.” “Until you fuck,” Matt said, much too bitterly. Wade sighed. “I’m here, trying to tell you how sorry I am for hurting you. How it’s eating at me like a cancer. And I’m trying to tell you how much I love you, because I do.” He leaned up and kissed Matt. “This deal with Alex is fun. It’s exciting. But it’s not what we have.” Luckily I don't have to worry about all those bitter slammings of Wade making him out to be the evil guy, because the story and Mark's comments tell a different tale. But I do feel sad and sorry for you all, since it seems to be destroying your enjoyment of Flux. Hopefully you'll be happier when CAP moves on to the next stage. Edited July 14, 2014 by Timothy M. 2
Henson Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I don't think Wade is irredeemable, or a lost cause. I just think he's being a shit, making horrible decisions, and deserves for Matt to grow a pair and dump his ass. 3
Henson Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Tim, I wrote my above post before I saw yours - it wasn't a reply to you. The short version is, I love the story, love the writing, and think Matt needs to give Wade a wakeup call. He needs to follow Will's advice, grow a set, and tell him, "hey, I love you. I'm always here for you. But until you get your shit together, quit bothering me and tearing my heart apart. It's not what you do to someone you love." ... and then fuck his way across Chicago. 3
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I don't understand how you can reinterpret Wade's actual words to mean that sentence above. “I don’t love him as much as I love you,” Wade said, emphasizing the present tense. “I don’t know if I love him at all. I know I’m infatuated with him, but I don’t know if it’s love. Like I said, I have fun with him, and we’re good together.” “Until you fuck,” Matt said, much too bitterly. Wade sighed. “I’m here, trying to tell you how sorry I am for hurting you. How it’s eating at me like a cancer. And I’m trying to tell you how much I love you, because I do.” He leaned up and kissed Matt. “This deal with Alex is fun. It’s exciting. But it’s not what we have.” Luckily I don't have to worry about all those bitter slammings of Wade making him out to be the evil guy, because the story and Mark's comments tell a different tale. But I do feel sad and sorry for you all, since it seems to be destroying your enjoyment of Flux. Hopefully you'll be happier when CAP moves on to the next stage. I thought I was done but I have to comment(mainly because I can't sleep). I think you are leaving a lot out here...like Wade saying he doesn't know if he loves Alex, but he thinks he could. and that the romance is good and he is enjoying the feeling of falling in love, and so is Alex.Or the fact that he says that even if he does end up loving Alex more than Matt, that it still wouldn't work because of social obligations. How could stuff like this not rip Matt's heart out? I think for now Matt is so desperate in his love for Wade that he will accept any crumbs that Wade will throw him and Wade has to know that. How much more vulnerable could a person be than where Matt is right now. Wade seems to be talking out both sides of his mouth and I know now from Mark's comments that it is not confusion. I am not saying Wade is evil but I am saying he is selfish and at this stage is missing something very important. Of course he wants what is best from him...but he should be paying attention and learning from Matt...who has shown consistantly in his rebirth that he only wants what is best for Wade.I believe he does love Matt but he wants it all and refuses to commit to that love and whether it is unintentional or just blindness...he is royally ripping Matt off emotionally in order to have it his way. They were all lost coming out of 911 and I think Wade still is and this is maybe where the influences of his screwed up family can rear the ugly heads. Thank you for your empathy and you are right...I have not enjoyed the journey. 1
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 On June 12,2002 (two months ago) Matt made the offer for a monogamous relationship even if they only saw each other once a month and HE MEANT IT. When he said Wade had to do the same, Wade said he didn't think he could...that he needed to be free to see other guys while in Boston. Matt offered earlier in their relationship but Wade turned it down. I think it's important to put that into the context of their entire relationship. They have been together more or less, for almost 4 years now, and that is the first time Matt has offered to be monogamous with Wade and meant it. Wade, on the other hand, had been more than willing to be monogamous. It is worth revisiting the part of Paternity where Wade had to force distance between him and Matt, and start seeing other people, in order to try to adapt to the non-monogamous relationship that Matt was adamant they have.
Mark Arbour Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 Mark is very defensive of Wade and I respect that Usually, the reason I speak up in this forum (besides it being fun) is to inject some context and objectivity into the discussion. That's what I'm doing with Wade. ...but I think you have a point. There is a cold calculated aspect to Wade's actions here Or perhaps Wade is just trying to look at things factually and logically, which actually makes sense for him, since he just came out of his infatuation-induced haze. (and Mark gets to keep his tie between the two great series..I figure that plays a factor) It actually plays no factor in this at all. Tying the series together was convenient and interesting, but not part of my master plan. That is even more true when I consider that I don't even have a master plan. and will continue to have lousy sex with him because he is so much better than Matt in every other way (which will continue to hurt Matt,no matter what he says because while he is just a character he is also human) and he will still keep his relationship going with Matt in Chicago because the sex is amazing and It fills Wade's needs. If I was Matt i would always be wondering when Wade was going to dump him again...because he will always know that in every other way, he is Wade's second choice. And if Wade does deign to move him up to first position it will be because Alex is no longer viable as Wade's partner because of his obligations. It kind of does sound like mommie dearest in action. You make a very good point here, and I think that if I were Matt, I would feel the same way. I can see how Matt would fall into that "second best" mindset, and how it would make him very insecure as he moves forward with Wade. Matt voiced this pretty clearly to Wade, when he told Wade he felt like he was just a dick to get Wade off (more or less), and Wade's answer wasn't overly compelling. For me this is all so beyond sad and makes me incredibly bitter (my problem) because the alternative would have been for Wade to actually choose ONE person and ONE relationship and stop being greedy. But taking Matt up on his offer for a commited ,monogamous relationship is just not done and yes I am bitter about that. It isn't because of long distance or logistics(they are uber rich). Matt, with his connections could eventually transfer or even immediately, to Boston if they chose that course. This is about something else altogether...and while it hurts, I/we have to accept it because all the whining(yeah i get that I am whining) in the world won't change it. As Mark commented, there is nothing wrong with Wade having his fun with the Earl in Boston cause Matt will be doing the same thing in Chicago with possibly Cam...and all is good in the CAP universe...except that to me that is not what people who profess love do to each other...It is probably just me,but I actually find this insulting on some level and a betrayal of what love really is. I am done. In this situation, I'm going to agree with you, in that this is probably just you. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that people adhere to someone else's definition of love, or what is a proper relationship. If monogamous works for you, that doesn't mean it will work for a different couple. And that doesn't mean that monogamous love is stronger or more beautiful than non-monogamous love. Wade has every right to be skeptical of Matt's assertion/offer to be monogamous. He's actually done that, for the most part, in his relationship with Matt, even when it was OK for him to mess around with other guys. In the past, Matt has flat our rejected that kind of committed relationship. When Matt made that proposal to Wade, Wade was unwilling to trust his battered psyche and emotions to Matt. He was seeking some distance, probably trying to give Matt a chance to evolve into a post-college adult, and trying to give both of them a chance to recover from their post 9-11 wounds. Casey pointed out to Matt that he basically needed to stand on his own before he could be part of a couple again, and I have to believe that was driving Wade's attitude. Their progression as a couple, from Wade's point of view, must look something like this: They started out as two guys who had broken up and weren't even really friends; they re-kindled their romantic attachment and tried to work back into that friendship; the friendship expanded as their romantic feelings reemerged; and then the love they felt for each other blossomed again. And now Wade is essentially back to the same kind of relationship they had prior to 9-11, where they are committed to each other emotionally, but allowed to have other partners/relationships. Matt told Wade he was ready to go to the next step long before Wade even got to this point. He made a huge leap across a couple of those steps, which is typical of Matt, but completely out of character for Wade, who is much more methodical.
Headstall Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I think it's important to put that into the context of their entire relationship. They have been together more or less, for almost 4 years now, and that is the first time Matt has offered to be monogamous with Wade and meant it. Wade, on the other hand, had been more than willing to be monogamous. It is worth revisiting the part of Paternity where Wade had to force distance between him and Matt, and start seeing other people, in order to try to adapt to the non-monogamous relationship that Matt was adamant they have. Point taken but neither one was perfect during those four years...who knows what would have happened if Wade didn't constantly ditch Matt for his female hookups when their relationship first started...I remember how tough that was on Matt...maybe it's not a stretch to say that that set some of the tone. Matt was a slut but he didn't have relationships that threatened his and Wade's...that was Wade's thing...And I do remember an offer that Matt made for a closed relationship that I thought he meant. At any rate,they were kids and it has taken four agonizing years to get here.They are adults now and you have made Matt a truly impressive individual so why not give them their chance now to be together in a different way? You are saying it is what Wade always wanted yet you have set him up with two sexual relationships.
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