Flux

[B1ue]

This may surprise some, but I agreed with Will's actions in this latest chapter, and found them to be unusually mature of his character. Sometimes, it really is the correct action to raise hell and make big noise, my previous objections to him doing that with Wally and Clara stemmed from his not thinking through the consequences first. This time he did, and JP also found a way to try to open his mind to the possible pitfalls of his actions without making him defensive.

 

If he follows through with Zach, and tries to talk to him about what he's doing and why, that would be even better. Although I could see Zach not quite realizing that he's using Will to divert attention away from himself.

[Mark Arbour]

This may surprise some, but I agreed with Will's actions in this latest chapter, and found them to be unusually mature of his character. Sometimes, it really is the correct action to raise hell and make big noise, my previous objections to him doing that with Wally and Clara stemmed from his not thinking through the consequences first. This time he did, and JP also found a way to try to open his mind to the possible pitfalls of his actions without making him defensive.

 

If he follows through with Zach, and tries to talk to him about what he's doing and why, that would be even better. Although I could see Zach not quite realizing that he's using Will to divert attention away from himself.

 

Zach probably needs to know, but Will probably won't tell him.  Guess who does. 

[Headstall]

This latest chapter gave me two things...for the first time i see some real potential for Zach and Will to figure out how to navigate the minefield that would appear to be their relationship...more and more i see Will putting someone ahead of himself...that's not to say that i have much hope for them though...also, during the trip to boston, my heart went out to Matt...it was great that he saw through Wade and can see that he is both sneaky and manipulative (can anyone say politician) ...maybe in this case the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...Wades' parents were not the best role models and i can't help what future influence this may have on Wade...i am not so sure that he is aware of what he is doing but maybe some professional insight is required....Wade worries that Matt will echo Robbie in relationships...i think Matt should have the same concerns about Wade echoing his own parents....Matt choosing to leave Boston early shows strength and growth on the surface, but to me this action screams hurt...i would hope that Wade is not so wrapped up in himself that he misses the very important message here...enough of what i think...cheers

[B1ue]

Zach probably needs to know, but Will probably won't tell him.  Guess who does. 

Aren't the only unrepentant shit-disturbers in the area at the moment Zach and Will themselves? Is Mary Ellen coming to Claremont?

[Kitt]

Isn't the fourth of July the big party in Clairmont? All the potential shit stirrers could be there, and there is nothing saying Zach will be  told while in Clairmont!  I can see Matt having a talk with him while they are in LA / Malibu.

[PrivateTim]

The danger for Will & Zach is the unguarded moment. They can not be a couple for a moment any place in public; not London, not Paris, not anyplace. De La Salle is a very affluent school pulling from some of the East Bay's tonier areas. It may not be Sacred Heart, but still plenty affluent to the extent that it would not be out of the realm of possibilities that they could run into De La Salle kids in Europe and definitely Menlo School kids in Europe.

 

If Zach keeps blowing off hot chicks who want to rock his world, that will send up more red flags than how much Will and he hang out.

[methodwriter85]

   Well, there's that, and camera cell phones plus social media are about to hit huge in another year.

[Mark Arbour]

The danger for Will & Zach is the unguarded moment. They can not be a couple for a moment any place in public; not London, not Paris, not anyplace. De La Salle is a very affluent school pulling from some of the East Bay's tonier areas. It may not be Sacred Heart, but still plenty affluent to the extent that it would not be out of the realm of possibilities that they could run into De La Salle kids in Europe and definitely Menlo School kids in Europe.

 

If Zach keeps blowing off hot chicks who want to rock his world, that will send up more red flags than how much Will and he hang out.

 

This is true, but I think that for right now, he's probably alright in Europe.  He's not at sports celebrity status yet, and the odds of running into someone they know in Europe are small.  But your point, that it could happen, makes it scary for them. 

 

I wonder, though, in the world of football of 2002, what would happen if the players generally suspected Zach was gay, but no one knew for sure, and it was kept pretty quiet.  Like with Troy Aikman.     I've read some interview about players referring to teammates who were gay and pretty much everyone acted like it wasn't happening and ignored it. 

[John Prz]

Why after the last chapter I feel like when Brad said to Max he would have been the one if Robbie wasn't there???

 

It make me smile how Matt is acting as the big brother for JJ and Will. thumbs up.

 

“I’m good.  I just don’t belong here,” he said, referring to Boston. 

        “Then you should come home,” I said, referring to California.

Loved it! Great ending of another great chapter

Edited April 17, 2014 by John Prz

[PrivateTim]

I like that Wade seems to be not liking that now Matt is actually moving on.

 

Like his mother, he has a control thing. It may not be as evil or as sinister as hers, but it is there.

 

The undercurrent that they may have a future together in 3-5 years is there. Or not. But I think yes. Or not.

[Headstall]

I used to really like Wade, so i am trying to see things his way but...he is an ass...he should have known how hard it would be for Matt in Boston, how awkward a position he was in, and should have gone out of his way to ensure he was included to some degree.Instead, he froze Matt out...something he complained about when they were together(something Matt was guilty of for sure). That is why i absolutely loved that Matt threw his hipocrisy at him.It is great that Matt continued to see through him and refused to back down on his stance with regard to Wade and Brad.It would appear that Matt is learning from his mistakes while Wade flounders in his personal growth...right to the last minute he was mainly concerned with what he wanted from Matt and that was a major disappointment for Matt (and me).On the other hand...seeing Matt and Will interact like actual brothers was really great to see. I do hope that Matt doesn't let Brad off too easy.I would like for him to show Brad that he is becoming a man of strength and character and is not to be trifled with...that there is some shift of power in the family dynamic and maybe show him that in all ways, he is not Robbie.I must conclude though, that at this point i still see Wade and Matt as soulmates and if they do manage to figure this out and reunite then i would hope they would not have another open relationship as i think that was a major reason for creating enough hurt to cause their separation.Cheers Mr. Arbour

[B1ue]

 

“Carrying a grudge hurts the person who carries it more than the person you’re pissed at,” Zach said.

 

I stumbled over this line. I would not have expected Zach to say that, at that time, in that way, to that person. With the exception of JJ, I would have expected almost any other character to be more likely to say that to Will, possibly even including Elizabeth Danfield.

 

I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's just the specific phrasing? I'll have to think about it. But that line was a discordant note in an otherwise interesting scene. Adjusting Will's worldview is shaping up to be a full-time hobby for Matt. It's cool to see him acting like an older brother to Will, as well as JJ.

[Kitt]

I stumbled over this line. I would not have expected Zach to say that, at that time, in that way, to that person. With the exception of JJ, I would have expected almost any other character to be more likely to say that to Will, possibly even including Elizabeth Danfield.

 

I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's just the specific phrasing? I'll have to think about it. But that line was a discordant note in an otherwise interesting scene. Adjusting Will's worldview is shaping up to be a full-time hobby for Matt. It's cool to see him acting like an older brother to Will, as well as JJ.

I think Zach is probably the only one could have said it and made any sort of impact on Will. If any of the adults in his life had tried to say that to Will i think it would have been met with a very teenage "WHATEVER" and been totally disregarded.

[Henson]

Teenagers, especially ones with well-above-average education, are often sponges who have an amazing capacity to quote things they've heard or read, often without realizing it.

[Mark Arbour]

I used to really like Wade, so i am trying to see things his way but...he is an ass...he should have known how hard it would be for Matt in Boston, how awkward a position he was in, and should have gone out of his way to ensure he was included to some degree.Instead, he froze Matt out...something he complained about when they were together(something Matt was guilty of for sure). That is why i absolutely loved that Matt threw his hipocrisy at him.It is great that Matt continued to see through him and refused to back down on his stance with regard to Wade and Brad.It would appear that Matt is learning from his mistakes while Wade flounders in his personal growth...right to the last minute he was mainly concerned with what he wanted from Matt and that was a major disappointment for Matt (and me).On the other hand...seeing Matt and Will interact like actual brothers was really great to see. I do hope that Matt doesn't let Brad off too easy.I would like for him to show Brad that he is becoming a man of strength and character and is not to be trifled with...that there is some shift of power in the family dynamic and maybe show him that in all ways, he is not Robbie.I must conclude though, that at this point i still see Wade and Matt as soulmates and if they do manage to figure this out and reunite then i would hope they would not have another open relationship as i think that was a major reason for creating enough hurt to cause their separation.Cheers Mr. Arbour

 

I don't think Wade deserves any bad vibes for this one.  Matt pretty much pushed his way into the Boston trip, and it sounds like they had fun when they first got there.  I can see how the urgency and euphoria over getting the new house, and the need to get it ready for fall, would have totally absorbed Wade, Tiffany, and JJ.  I don't think Matt is feeling like Wade went out of his way to diss him, I think the whole dynamic made Matt realize that he really has no place in Wade's life in Boston, except when he visits.  Wade probably knew this would happen, but probably saw that there was no other way to get through to Matt.

 

I stumbled over this line. I would not have expected Zach to say that, at that time, in that way, to that person. With the exception of JJ, I would have expected almost any other character to be more likely to say that to Will, possibly even including Elizabeth Danfield.

 

I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's just the specific phrasing? I'll have to think about it. But that line was a discordant note in an otherwise interesting scene. Adjusting Will's worldview is shaping up to be a full-time hobby for Matt. It's cool to see him acting like an older brother to Will, as well as JJ.

 

I love that you caught this.  I re-read these chapters multiple times before they post, and I stuck on this line myself a few times.  Here's my thinking:  someone really needs to say this to Will, and as Kitt pointed out:

 

I think Zach is probably the only one could have said it and made any sort of impact on Will. If any of the adults in his life had tried to say that to Will i think it would have been met with a very teenage "WHATEVER" and been totally disregarded.

 

...it really needs to be Zach.  I can actually see Zach carrying a grudge, which makes this so strange coming from him.  But while I think it's a bit out of character for Zach under normal circumstances, I think it shows him really trying to help Will out, even if it means going outside his own comfort zone. 

[PrivateTim]

I used to really like Wade, so i am trying to see things his way but...he is an ass...he should have known how hard it would be for Matt in Boston, how awkward a position he was in, and should have gone out of his way to ensure he was included to some degree.Instead, he froze Matt out...something he complained about when they were together(something Matt was guilty of for sure). That is why i absolutely loved that Matt threw his hipocrisy at him.It is great that Matt continued to see through him and refused to back down on his stance with regard to Wade and Brad.It would appear that Matt is learning from his mistakes while Wade flounders in his personal growth...right to the last minute he was mainly concerned with what he wanted from Matt and that was a major disappointment for Matt (and me).On the other hand...seeing Matt and Will interact like actual brothers was really great to see. I do hope that Matt doesn't let Brad off too easy.I would like for him to show Brad that he is becoming a man of strength and character and is not to be trifled with...that there is some shift of power in the family dynamic and maybe show him that in all ways, he is not Robbie.I must conclude though, that at this point i still see Wade and Matt as soulmates and if they do manage to figure this out and reunite then i would hope they would not have another open relationship as i think that was a major reason for creating enough hurt to cause their separation.Cheers Mr. Arbour

 

Dude, I think you have Stockholm Syndrome. You are starting to identify with your captors (Matt's eyes).

 

I love seeing Matt's POV again, but our own POV is always rosy on our actions and harsh on others. Matt feels excluded in Boston, but if we were seeing this from Wade's perspective he'd think Matt was being standoffish and distancing himself from the others.

 

Just because I like seeing Matt's POV doesn't mean I have an iota of sympathy for him. He made is own bed, now he has to lie in it. He has already eaten his cake, so he can't have it anymore. He ran his flag up the flagpole and no one saluted because Elvis had already left the building.....

 

Okay, no more cliches and mixed metaphors.

 

Matt had the ability to lock down Wade for life and he blew it through selfish, small head thinking. At anytime Matt could have woken up to the fact that getting laid is vacuous and leads to nothingness.

 

The senior in college trying to cram in those last lays and days of fun is not my experience, especially having been around Berkeley and Stanford seniors. Most of the guys I knew at these two schools were done with partying and skirt chasing at the end of their junior years. Being a senior was about focusing on the future and being burned out being around "little kids" who just wanted to party. When I was a freshman in my fraternity house I couldn't believe what fuddy duddy old men the seniors were and three short years later I was one.

 

While I hold out hope for Matt maturing and fulfilling the potential we saw when Matt was a senior in high school, I am not going to forget that he forged these chains that now bind him (okay, sorry, one last cliche) or blame those whose patience wore thin.

[Headstall]

 

 

Posted Today, 01:24 PM

 

Headstall, on 20 Apr 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

 

I used to really like Wade, so i am trying to see things his way but...he is an ass...he should have known how hard it would be for Matt in Boston, how awkward a position he was in, and should have gone out of his way to ensure he was included to some degree.Instead, he froze Matt out...something he complained about when they were together(something Matt was guilty of for sure). That is why i absolutely loved that Matt threw his hipocrisy at him.It is great that Matt continued to see through him and refused to back down on his stance with regard to Wade and Brad.It would appear that Matt is learning from his mistakes while Wade flounders in his personal growth...right to the last minute he was mainly concerned with what he wanted from Matt and that was a major disappointment for Matt (and me).On the other hand...seeing Matt and Will interact like actual brothers was really great to see. I do hope that Matt doesn't let Brad off too easy.I would like for him to show Brad that he is becoming a man of strength and character and is not to be trifled with...that there is some shift of power in the family dynamic and maybe show him that in all ways, he is not Robbie.I must conclude though, that at this point i still see Wade and Matt as soulmates and if they do manage to figure this out and reunite then i would hope they would not have another open relationship as i think that was a major reason for creating enough hurt to cause their separation.Cheers Mr. Arbour

 

 

 

I don't think Wade deserves any bad vibes for this one. Matt pretty much pushed his way into the Boston trip, and it sounds like they had fun when they first got there. I can see how the urgency and euphoria over getting the new house, and the need to get it ready for fall, would have totally absorbed Wade, Tiffany, and JJ. I don't think Matt is feeling like Wade went out of his way to diss him, I think the whole dynamic made Matt realize that he really has no place in Wade's life in Boston, except when he visits. Wade probably knew this would happen, but probably saw that there was no other way to get through to Matt.

 

I really get where you are coming from, Mr. Arbour and i certainly can't argue with what the author wrote or intended but...as a longtime reader of these characters, I don't feel comfortable with this scenario and my reasoning may be convoluted but it comes from a historical perspective. When Wade and Brad first hooked up in 911 i saw trouble as in Wade felt too strongly for Brad.It wasn't just a hookup and it still isn't. But Robbie and Brads' relationship was in the way so it had to end but i always had a feeling that it wasn't done with and since i had a problem with it on many levels, it was a sort of fear of mine.From the time that there was no Robbie, i saw the writing on the wall and i guess that in my mind, i expected Wade to eventually manipulate things to his advantage to get back to a relationship of some kind with Brad. i know that Matt went off the rails when his dad died and was a complete ass to his family but i feel like Wade didn't try hard enough to help him through it...why was Tony the friend that Matt needed? I know that this is the meanderings of my brain but i really feel that Wade has been a huge hipocrite and if he wanted to get through to Matt that it was over, common decency would have allowed him to find a better way.What he wants most from Matt is approval to keep what he has with Brad which, at this time of theirs,i find so low.I said in an earlier post that i not sure that Wade even realizes what he is doing and that maybe professional help would be in order.I guess what i am saying is that it feels to me like maybe Wade took advantage of a number of events(especially the Tony/Will/Matt thing)to alienate himself from Matt in order to go after what he really wanted...a very political type move. IF this was the case i hope he figures out his motives soon and realizes what it may have cost him...he has certainly lost Will's and Matt,s respect and mine as well.Wow...i think i have become too invested in these people...maybe i need the professional help...Happy Easter

[methodwriter85]

 

The senior in college trying to cram in those last lays and days of fun is not my experience, especially having been around Berkeley and Stanford seniors. Most of the guys I knew at these two schools were done with partying and skirt chasing at the end of their junior years. Being a senior was about focusing on the future and being burned out being around "little kids" who just wanted to party. When I was a freshman in my fraternity house I couldn't believe what fuddy duddy old men the seniors were and three short years later I was one.

 

    Losing your father in a previously-unimaginable terrorist act, who you had only known for three years, was also not part of your experience.

 

    I don't know. In any event, I always thought senior year was divided by two types of people- the people who were already above it all and ready to move on, and the people who were desperately clinging on, like Cappie on Greek. I knew people who did a 5th year or went to grad school just to stay at University of Delaware because they didn't want to let go. In my case, I was on a 5th year because I had to take a break junior year, and I was ready to be done at the end. I cried at my high school and grad school graduations, but not college. Mostly because I was ready to be done. It also helped that my Skid Row crew buddies had mostly graduated, and while my replacement party house was still pretty fun (they had Yuengling kegs!), it wasn't really the same.

 

    In any event, I don't think this is Wade's fault. I think it's the only way Matt could have finally "gotten" it- the only way to shake him out of his fantasy that he and Wade were going to get back together.

[B1ue]

I think Zach is probably the only one could have said it and made any sort of impact on Will. If any of the adults in his life had tried to say that to Will i think it would have been met with a very teenage "WHATEVER" and been totally disregarded.

I think Matt might have been able to get away with it, Will was already listening to him, and Claire's family could probably pull it off as well (in fact, this sounds like something John or Marie might say) but you're quite right. My objection wasn't that someone said that to Will, more that Zach did.

[Kitt]

I think Matt might have been able to get away with it, Will was already listening to him, and Claire's family could probably pull it off as well (in fact, this sounds like something John or Marie might say) but you're quite right. My objection wasn't that someone said that to Will, more that Zach did.

The big point that makes me think Will would not have listened to Marie,John or Matt is that at various times each of them had hurt Will just as badly as Tony had. Zach is very much on the inside right now, and while Matt is working his way back into Will's good graces, I don't think he has that sort of influence yet.

[B1ue]

Actually, Marie and Matt did not hurt Will in the same way. They hurt him as one family member to another, not as one lover to another, which is the crux of the problem that Will is having at the moment, and the thrust of Matt's advice. If Will is going to allow Tony back into his life with any emotional equanimity, he's going to have to start seeing him as a family member, not as an ex.

 

Mind, this isn't a universal constant for everyone. Matt, in particular, does not usually need to maintain physical distance in order to maintain emotional distance, which makes the cases that he does, Wade for example, all the more poignant. But Will's default angry reaction seems to be to cut the focus of his ire off, in contrast to Brad's need to confront that person in as loud a manner as possible, Wade's strategy of  finding some lever on which to maneuver them, and JP's instinct to eliminate the problem in a more permanent fashion. Getting Will past that reaction might be nice, but I'm not sure how realistic a goal it is. I've found those responses to be the hardest to train yourself out of, and even harder to eliminate in someone else without their eager cooperation.

 

But all that is kind of beside my main point. Even if Will needed to hear this, it's still odd that Zach is the one that said it. What motivation does Zach have for Will to settle things with Tony? We see, in this scene, that he's jealous of the relationship Will and Tony used to have, and with quite a bit of justification. I will argue, as Matt does, that Tony should be considered family to Will, but Zach would have no reason to feel that way. I can't remember if he's even met Tony. He has no reason to want to see Will allow Tony back into his life, and every reason to want Will to keep Tony at a distance, especially now that he himself is going to have to keep Will at arms length.

[Kitt]

Everything you say is quite true B1ue.  I didn't, however, say that Marie or Matt hurt will in the same way that Tony did, just that they hurt him just as much.

 

And while Zach has no reason to want Tony back in Will's life, he is an intelligent young man, who apparently cares a great deal for Will, and it is not a great leap for Zach to see that harboring such hatred can't be good for Will. 

[B1ue]

Everything you say is quite true B1ue.  I didn't, however, say that Marie or Matt hurt will in the same way that Tony did, just that they hurt him just as much.

 

And while Zach has no reason to want Tony back in Will's life, he is an intelligent young man, who apparently cares a great deal for Will, and it is not a great leap for Zach to see that harboring such hatred can't be good for Will. 

 

My mistake. Although that brings up a different point. If will won't get bent out of shape regarding Zach's previous injury to him, why would he John's? It was my impression that he'd forgiven and moved past the mistake for both of them.

 

And while Zach has no reason to want Tony back in Will's life, he is an intelligent young man, who apparently cares a great deal for Will, and it is not a great leap for Zach to see that harboring such hatred can't be good for Will. 

 

I think it is a pretty big leap, or I wouldn't be so bothered by it. While Zach isn't as selfish as Gathan saw him, he's not selfless either. Besides, it's not like Will goes into a Tony induced rant every other day, where it really is an unhealthy obsession. Tony is merely dead to him, and Will only gets irritated when someone tries to make him deal with it.

 

It is arguably unwise that Will only has two categories for people: dead-to-him and clasped-to-his-bosom, and I definitely don't mind seeing Matt especially trying to expand Will's horizons. It just seems a weird thing for Zach to try and do. I guess it doesn't really matter, although I wonder if we're going to see this expanded upon in later characterizations of Zach. Does he generally just let things go? It might fit, especially if he really is as smooth an operator as Gathan initially presented him as. Maybe this is his inner Clara and Wally talking through him, as Henson alluded to?

 

By the way, I don't mean to seem like I'm arguing with you Kitt, I'm just trying to think out loud, using your points as a basis. If I'm coming across like that, I apologize.

Edited April 22, 2014 by B1ue

[Kitt]

Nothing wrong with a good healthy discussion B1ue! It's how we expand our views.

 

And while I agree that Will is a very black or white person, and that may not be the healthiest place to be, It has been my experience that most kids his age are. As we get older we start to discern all the shades in between.

[Mark Arbour]

What we've seen of Zach so far is that he's a very closed person, but once he lets you in, he's pretty devoted.  So I think it's reasonable for him to be that worried about Will, worried enough to think about his psyche.