Flux

[rjo]

I have always thought Will's black and white view point was a strength not a weakness. Few people are willing to stand up for something they believe in. That is not Will. Over the last few books I have seen Will grow and mature. He has learned forgiveness. To see him and Matt now, almost makes one forget about the difficulties of the past. As for Zach's comment remember he is the youngest of 6 kids growing up in a small house. Maybe a reason we need to give Clara and Wally a benifit of the doubt, it is their last child. So back to the subject, Will then has 9 11 and the loss of Robbie, Jeanine and Hank. He is down to one parent who is not doing very good. I think Mark said it is almost as if Will has become the parent. Now the revelation that his father and Wade have this secret relationship. I would say a lot for a going on 16 yo to handle. Two people he looked up to, have clay feet. He knows his father is in bad shape. But Wade seems so with ii, able to handle every thing and now we see he is as screwed up as the raise of them. In the long run JP is right, we must over look what has happened to just move forward forgiving anything which has happened because of 9 11. hopefully the family will be able to follow that lead.

Edited April 22, 2014 by rjo

[Headstall]

Great chapter! Ifeel like i am getting to know Zach...so much character growth...and i like the sensitivity he is showing as well as the coming to terms he is exhibiting. I know that they are young, but he and Will seem to be able to read each other in a way that shows some real maturity. Will keeps amazing me with his ever increasing insight into all the people around him. That brat that can be in him is not so visible anymore.Instead, i can see that he has learned and absorbed so much from his rather formidable family and appears to be moving into a new phase in many facets of his life. Kudos Mr. Arbour

[Daddydavek]

In the latest chapter I am more intrigued by the level of involvement that Brad reveals with Wade and how that has influenced him.    Fending off Cody, Slater and Mendoza, that really is a change from his past habits and I think says a lot.  You could say he's still caught in a very real state of flux......

[Kitt]

 

 Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

Thanks Kitt!

So you're suggesting that if someone is untrustworthy in the beginning of relationship, it is unwise to trust them going forward? Interesting hypothesis. ;-)

I think it would certainly be grounds for caution going forward.

 

 Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

As for the declarations of love...they're young. Young guys say shit like that early.

And sometimes they actually think that they mean it. 

 

 

Let's not forget that Brad and Robbie were not too much older than Will and Zach when they met.

[Timothy M.]

PrivateTim (Chapter 15 Review)

I was disappointed that Frank and Isidore weren't in on the meeting as they are Zach's defacto guardians and Frank has proven to be solidly in Zach's corner.

Reply from Mark Arbour (author)

That's a really good point about Frank and Isidore not being at the meeting. I suspect that the reason for that is one of three things:

1. The author forgot to include them.

2. Frank and Isidore were busy closing up their house in Lafayette for the summer.

3. The author didn't include them to avoid muddying the water with too many characters.

I'll let you decide which one you want to buy into. :-)

 

Is Frank aware that Zach is gay and in a relationship with Will? If not that would be a good reason not to have him at this meeting with Barry. If Zach didn't tell Frank about the extra meeting, he'd probably not be aware that it was happening. I bet Wally doesn't know

But perhaps everyone at Escorial know about Zach and Will ?

[mmike1969]

Of course everyone at Escorial knows. Will and Zach are kind of loud.

 

Good thing JP's house sits on 20 acres.

Edited April 25, 2014 by mmike1969

[Mark Arbour]

 

 

Is Frank aware that Zach is gay and in a relationship with Will? If not that would be a good reason not to have him at this meeting with Barry. If Zach didn't tell Frank about the extra meeting, he'd probably not be aware that it was happening. I bet Wally doesn't know

But perhaps everyone at Escorial know about Zach and Will ?

Everyone at Escorial knows. Wally And Clara don't. Gathan obviously knows, and Brent suspects. The other brothers are clueless at this point.

[methodwriter85]

Wally and Clara want their son to be a major NFL star, which means he can't be gay because there are no gay guys in professional football, so they've decided to stick their fingers in their ears and go, "La la la la!"

 

As for Frank, it's gotta be interesting for him. Zach probably makes him think of Robbie, but he also makes him think of Jeff, who judging by CAP was a brighter star than Robbie was, but who crashed and burned in college. The way we're playing Zach so far makes it seem like he's the one with the most potential they've had since Jeff, maybe even more. Of course, back in the early 1960's, I don't think high school kids had sports agents. They didn't even have the Super Bowl when Jeff was playing high school football.

[Kitt]

Hey now - fingers in the ears and "Lalalalala" worked pretty well for my great grandma when my uncle brought his boyfriend to a family gathering in the 60's. As long as he was "Joey's friend" and nothing more was said she was a happy camper.

[PrivateTim]

Wally and Clara want their son to be a major NFL star, which means he can't be gay because there are no gay guys in professional football, so they've decided to stick their fingers in their ears and go, "La la la la!"

 

As for Frank, it's gotta be interesting for him. Zach probably makes him think of Robbie, but he also makes him think of Jeff, who judging by CAP was a brighter star than Robbie was, but who crashed and burned in college. The way we're playing Zach so far makes it seem like he's the one with the most potential they've had since Jeff, maybe even more. Of course, back in the early 1960's, I don't think high school kids had sports agents. They didn't even have the Super Bowl when Jeff was playing high school football.

 

High school athletes and college athletes still don't have agents, they have advisors and consultants that are paid for their service.

 

Wally and Clara are not aware enough to suspect Will and Zach are having a sexual relationship and they have not been around them enough.

 

I am sure Frank is aware of Zach and Will's "special friendship", but since Zach just made his first declaration to Will, no one knows he is gay.

 

I am also pretty confident in Will and Zach's ability to pull off "buds" and "cousins" in public. I don't think they are doing the sappy moony looks that always do in gay kids and give them away on Nifty.

[Westie]

Quite frankly, now I think the best thing that could happen for Will's relationship, and for Zach's long term psychological well-being would be for Zach to blow out his knee or something. it might ruin his career, but I think the mental strain of living a double life, and the eventual resentment, will do far more damage than a lost career.

[Daddydavek]

Quite frankly, now I think the best thing that could happen for Will's relationship, and for Zach's long term psychological well-being would be for Zach to blow out his knee or something. it might ruin his career, but I think the mental strain of living a double life, and the eventual resentment, will do far more damage than a lost career.

I couldn't disagree more.  Right now football is everything to Zach.  He has some talent and plenty of ambition and is still young.  There have been thousands of young men who have successfully hidden their preferences while pursuing careers.   Hollywood was replete with them up until a short while ago and I suspect there were and are more in sports than we will ever know!  A person's sexuality can be a private affair and some people even prefer it that way.

[mmike1969]

As long as we don't make this a Pat Tillman like ending then it's cool.

[methodwriter85]

   Of all the current teenaged characters in CAP, I'd say JJ, Will, and Zach seem like the least likely to join up in the War on Terror, in that order.

 

   In any event, it's interesting because as a historical fiction series, you get those moments of "Wow, look how far we come!", like when you realize that in 2002, the Netherlands was the only country that had legalized gay marriage- Canada and Belgium didn't do until a year later in 2003. It doesn't even come to the U.S. until Massachusetts in 2004. Now there are 18 states where it's legal.

 

    But here we are in 2014, and there are still no active, openly gay football players in the NFL. Michael Sam is probably going to change that by this summer, but still- that's 12 years where there is absolutely no movement going forward. I think as a storyline, that's going to be pretty interesting.

 

    Also, if we get Zach to USC, he'll be contemporaries with Reggie Bush and be a player of the eventually disgraced 2004 and 2005 teams. (His sophomore and junior years, respectively.) Although that's not going to be as bad as what happens to Penn State. Man.

Edited April 26, 2014 by methodwriter85

[John Prz]

Will need to have a cover boyfriend... 

 

It will be Kai (while in Hawaii), Tony (this would be pretty problematic and crazy) or Hot Jeff?

[Daddydavek]

I think a 'cover' boyfriend is a great opportunity for Mark to introduce a new recurring character with some real personality and perhaps a bit flamboyant!  Perhaps someone that Stef introduces Will to?  (Just wishing!)

[Timothy M.]

   In any event, it's interesting because as a historical fiction series, you get those moments of "Wow, look how far we come!", like when you realize that in 2002, the Netherlands was the only country that had legalized gay marriage. Canada and Belgium didn't do until a year later in 2003. It doesn't even come to the U.S. until Massachusetts in 2004. Now there are 18 states where it's legal.

 

Several European countries had legalized gay civil unions 10-15 years before the turn of the century. OK it wasn't marriage (in the strict sense of the word) and you couldn't get it done in a church, but it gave you all the legal rights. I'm fairly sure gay marriage would have been introduced in these countries at the same time as Holland / Belgium, if there wasn't already an option.

But I still get those moments you mention

[methodwriter85]

That's why I specifically said gay marriage. California and Hawaii started allowing domestic partnerships in the '90s, and Vermont had civil unions starting in 2000, but Mark doesn't seem to think that much of that, because we've never mentioned civil unions or domestic partnerships in CAP even though domestic partnerships were legal in California. It's kind of weird though that Stefan didn't throw a party celebrating civil unions coming to Vermont in the summer of 2000, because you'd think Stefan would love having that excuse to throw a party since he threw one in 1973 to celebrate homosexuality being taken off the list of mental illnesses. Or that Jeanine and Hank were going to take advantage of domestic partnership laws in New York City. That would have been a compelling reason for them to move from New Jersey to New York, because it wasn't legal in New Jersey. But my guess is that these characters are kind of "meh" about the idea of domestic partnerships/civil unions because of the whole "separate and (not) equal thing."

Edited April 28, 2014 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

But my guess is that these characters are kind of "meh" about the idea of domestic partnerships/civil unions because of the whole "separate and (not) equal thing."

 

These characters are "meh" because they are rich and rules just don't apply to them. Are there any rules or laws they haven't broken?

[Mark Arbour]

Several European countries had legalized gay civil unions 10-15 years before the turn of the century. OK it wasn't marriage (in the strict sense of the word) and you couldn't get it done in a church, but it gave you all the legal rights. I'm fairly sure gay marriage would have been introduced in these countries at the same time as Holland / Belgium, if there wasn't already an option.

But I still get those moments you mention

There's an incomplete timeline in Wiki and another one, which focuses mostly on the US, here. As of the time of this story, only the Netherlands had approved gay marriage.  Belgium was next, but not until 2003.  Here's a Wiki article on civil unions. In fact, many European countries with civil union laws were slow to adopt gay marriage.   The Scandinavian countries, for example,  were some of the first to provide for civil unions (Denmark, 1989), but gay marriage wasn't legal in Norway and Sweden until 2009, and in Denmark until 2012.  In fact, gay marriage legalization in Europe was pretty slow.  It just happened in the UK this year.

 

That's why I specifically said gay marriage. California and Hawaii started allowing domestic partnerships in the '90s, and Vermont had civil unions starting in 2000, but Mark doesn't seem to think that much of that, because we've never mentioned civil unions or domestic partnerships in CAP even though domestic partnerships were legal in California. It's kind of weird though that Stefan didn't throw a party celebrating civil unions coming to Vermont in the summer of 2000, because you'd think Stefan would love having that excuse to throw a party since he threw one in 1973 to celebrate homosexuality being taken off the list of mental illnesses. Or that Jeanine and Hank were going to take advantage of domestic partnership laws in New York City. That would have been a compelling reason for them to move from New Jersey to New York, because it wasn't legal in New Jersey. But my guess is that these characters are kind of "meh" about the idea of domestic partnerships/civil unions because of the whole "separate and (not) equal thing."

 

Domestic partnerships were allowed in the '90s, but the LATE 90s.  Hawaii, 1997, and California, 1999. 

 

I'm not sure that domestic partnership and gay marriage, other than it being a civil rights issue, would have impacted this family.  Their wealth largely insulates them from the benefits and disadvantages of both, and much can be accomplished with powers-of-attorney and trusts.  I'll defer to Tim on this one, though.

These characters are "meh" because they are rich and rules just don't apply to them.

 

Welcome to Twenty-first century America.

[methodwriter85]

 

I'm not sure that domestic partnership and gay marriage, other than it being a civil rights issue, would have impacted this family.  Their wealth largely insulates them from the benefits and disadvantages of both, and much can be accomplished with powers-of-attorney and trusts.  I'll defer to Tim on this one, though.

 

That makes sense for domestic partnerships. I do think gay marriage will be a big deal, especially when Will comes of age. If Zach and Will are still together in 2014, I can see it bothering Will that his friends are getting married while he still can't hold Zach's hand in public.

 

I do think you've shown a bit of the generation gap here- Brad never really says "husband", and Matt and Wade stuck to "partners." Will probably will think in terms of "husband" and all that, once gay marriage starts making its way around the country. There's a whole different mindset, which Private Tim has talked about, about the newfangled generation of gay young men who talk about getting married and all that. Will is probably going to be representative of that. Matt and Wade probably will, too.

 

Plus...I mean, when it's 2008 in CAP-world, you really won't be able to avoid Prop 8. That, the Great Recession Begins, and Obama Wins have to be the three biggest stories of that year.

 

Interestingly though, I don't think JP and Stefan would do the marriage thing. I don't think a piece of paper would be that important to them, and I think they'd just see it as a piece of paper. I have met people with that mindset. I do think Matt and Wade would do it, if they're back together by 2008.

 

 

Are there any rules or laws they haven't broken?

 

 I think JJ is the only family member we have who comes close to actually obeying the bulk of laws- he doesn't drink, do drugs, and he generally follows the rules. I'm assuming that it's part personality, and part being deathly afraid of the USFSA's wrath.

Edited April 28, 2014 by methodwriter85

[mmike1969]

I think JJ is the only family member we have who comes close to actually obeying the bulk of laws- he doesn't drink, do drugs, and he generally follows the rules. I'm assuming that it's part personality, and part being deathly afraid of the USFSA's wrath.

It sure gonna suck for JJ when he dies a virgin when that out of control train smashes into his Miata.

[methodwriter85]

   JJ doesn't drive. He's content to use his driver.

[mmike1969]

JJ doesn't drive. He's content to use his driver.

And it's gonna suck even more when JJ's driver dies too

[mmike1969]

Re chapter. 16:

Matt, Wade is not your boyfriend. Get over it.

 

Re: Will & Zach:

Yeah, if Barry could figure it out, I doubt anyone else is going to be fooled, no matter how many girls Zach dates and has sex with.