Educating Others Tactfully

[W_L]

Thanks for the OED dictionary extracts. Most helpful.

 

Problem is, you didn't say "anti-feminine".

 

You said "anti-feminist" - hence my original throwaway remark #18

 

So maybe it's you that needs to do a little more study on your word power

 

 

Fine, the zombie can have some meat

 

Anti-feminine was my intent originally

[Zombie]

Fine, the zombie can have some meat

 

Anti-feminine was my intent originally

 

It's courtesy to make an "edit" when you go back and change a post - # 17 - especially where the meaning has been significantly changed and subsequent posts have been made. Otherwise it's confusing for new readers.

 

So, you meant to say "These kids aren't homophobes, yet, they are just anti-feminine."

 

"Anti-feminine"?? But what does this mean??

 

There is only one meaning. You mean "anti-feminine-behaviour-by-other-boys".

 

And when other boys behave in a feminine way that is "effeminacy".

 

And you're saying that's acceptable - hey, those kids, they're "just anti-feminine". No biggie.

 

But as Graeme pointed out earlier [#39] "Anti-effeminate behaviour is not acceptable".

 

So, even with the change, your statement is still unacceptable.

 

 

.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Zombie

[Ashi]

The title of this thread is "Educating Others Tactfully." 

[TetRefine]

You guys are turning this into a semantics circle jerk. 

 

I'm just afraid that boys acting like boys will become something to be looked down upon and they will all be expected to be sensitive, gentle, and non-agressive. It seems like we are trying to somewhat feminize males and masculinity. 

 

There is a reason football locker rooms are very anti-feminine and anti-gay. Because masculinity is a trait that is absolutely essential to succeeding on the field during game-day, while femininity is a detriment to that goal. They can't contribute, so therefor are worth nothing to the team. The same goes for certain occupations too. Things like construction and policing and such have very similar attitudes because strength and masculinity are prized and essential to functioning properly in those jobs. So don't just think they are blindly ignorant for no reason. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by TetRefine

[W_L]

Matt's right, I won't jerk the zombie anymore

 

Anti feminine is more than hating effeminate behaviour, it encompasses a wide range of attributes that maybe far more associated with female stereotypes Ie. Female gender roles. In sports like American football for example, one attribute of masculinity is aggression and being active. While the counterpoint is elements of feminine such as passivity and a desire to for peaceful balance.

 

In that context, you cannot achieve your goal of a "singular" game victory and dominance without masculine attributes. 

 

Differences in societies do not remove the underlying argument. In the far east, some cultures like the burmese for example encourage boys to fight as a social activity. It encourages self improvement, problem solving on a tactical level, and survival skills.

 

Aggression is a masculine attribute, but you do not need  to maintain that level of masculinity all the time. As a person develops, they learn from experience that some feminine behaviours are pertinent and even desirable in certain circumstances. 

 

By the way, I disagree with Matt in that I think some feminine  effort is acceptable in sports, you don't need to win it all to win it all. Sometimes when playing in series and season long games, you want to lose a few games to improve your future opponents and strategically hide your inner strength. Passivity in this case could be used to hide capacity. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by W_L

[Irritable1]

 

 

By the way, I disagree with Matt in that I think some feminine  effort is acceptable in sports, you don't need to win it all to win it all. Sometimes when playing in series and season long games, you want to lose a few games to improve your future opponents and strategically hide your inner strength. Passivity in this case could be used to hide capacity. 

 

If feminine effort is synonymous with losing games, it's not surprising there's still issues with implementation of Title IX 

[Thorn Wilde]

I just can't believe that you guys are perpetuating the same tired old gender stereotypes that have led to homophobia in the first place.

 

In ancient Greece it was perfectly acceptable for a grown man to take a young male lover. The man was then expected to take the dominant role, while the boy was expected to take the passive, 'female' role. Once the boy became a man, he would have been ridiculed or even shunned if he continued to prefer bottoming.

 

Ancient Rome was the same. A free man could pretty much shag whatever he wanted—man, woman or beast—so long as he took the dominant role.

 

The Vikings saw aggression and dominance as a virtue, and as such a Viking warrior who took sexual advantage of male slaves or raped his enemies on the battlefield was all fine, but if someone so much as indicated that you were the slightest bit feminine or, gods forbid, took the passive role during anal sex, you pretty much had leave to kill him and nobody would even question the morality of it. It was the worst insult anyone could give you, because it indicated that you were passive, weak, feminine.

 

Even today, when straight guys take the piss out of each other, they never indicate that they take the dominant homosexual role. Instead they suggest that they 'like taking it up the arse' or 'like sucking cock'. They insult their masculinity, because masculinity is more valuable than femininity. Being a manly man is better than being a woman. It goes as far as to the internalised homophobia of some gay men, who won't bottom because they think it's unmanly, and I weep for those guys, because how can they ever respect their romantic partners?

 

Homophobia and misogyny both come from the same system of beliefs; the belief that that which is masculine is more valuable than that which is feminine, and anyone who steps outside their gender roles is a lesser person. A butch lesbian has 'penis envy' and is just 'trying to be a guy', while an effeminate man, gay or straight, is weak, a pussy, a sissy, and notice how every slang expression in the English language that indicates weakness has a feminine slant, while almost every slang expression that indicates strength or aggression has a masculine slant? One day, I'd like to hear someone say, 'Man, that dude has some serious ovaries!'

 

Anyway, I think some of you would do well to remember that every time you perpetuate a gender stereotype you're shooting yourselves in the arse. No one thinks all men should be 'sensitive, gentle, and non-agressive', as Matt put it (although it's not like the world needs any more aggressive arseholes than it already has), any more than they think all women should be hairy, butch tractor lesbians (not that there's anything wrong with that either). I just think everyone should care a little bit less about people in terms of their gender and more in terms of the product of their words and actions, and what good they do in the world. Because physical sex matters so very little in the grand scheme of things, and gender is, let's face it, more a social construct than a biological imperative, something I think everyone here should be able to appreciate.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Thorn Wilde

[W_L]

If feminine effort is synonymous with losing games, it's not surprising there's still issues with implementation of Title IX 

 

Feminine effort in this context is strategic thinking, planning, and subtlety, i.e. passive versus active.

 

Think of it as Yin and Yang, male and female attributes, dark and light, active and passive.

 

I just can't believe that you guys are perpetuating the same tired old gender stereotypes that have led to homophobia in the first place.

 

In ancient Greece it was perfectly acceptable for a grown man to take a young male lover. The man was then expected to take the dominant role, while the boy was expected to take the passive, 'female' role. Once the boy became a man, he would have been ridiculed or even shunned if he continued to prefer bottoming.

 

Ancient Rome was the same. A free man could pretty much shag whatever he wanted—man, woman or beast—so long as he took the dominant role.

 

The Vikings saw aggression and dominance as a virtue, and as such a Viking warrior who took sexual advantage of male slaves or raped his enemies on the battlefield was all fine, but if someone so much as indicated that you were the slightest bit feminine or, gods forbid, took the passive role during anal sex, you pretty much had leave to kill him and nobody would even question the morality of it. It was the worst insult anyone could give you, because it indicated that you were passive, weak, feminine.

 

Even today, when straight guys take the piss out of each other, they never indicate that they take the dominant homosexual role. Instead they suggest that they 'like taking it up the arse' or 'like sucking cock'. They insult their masculinity, because masculinity is more valuable than femininity. Being a manly man is better than being a woman. It goes as far as to the internalised homophobia of some gay men, who won't bottom because they think it's unmanly, and I weep for those guys, because how can they ever respect their romantic partners?

 

Homophobia and misogyny both come from the same system of beliefs; the belief that that which is masculine is more valuable than that which is feminine, and anyone who steps outside their gender roles is a lesser person. A butch lesbian has 'penis envy' and is just 'trying to be a guy', while an effeminate man, gay or straight, is weak, a pussy, a sissy, and notice how every slang expression in the English language that indicates weakness has a feminine slant, while almost every slang expression that indicates strength or aggression has a masculine slant? One day, I'd like to hear someone say, 'Man, that dude has some serious ovaries!'

 

Anyway, I think some of you would do well to remember that every time you perpetuate a gender stereotype you're shooting yourselves in the arse. No one thinks all men should be 'sensitive, gentle, and non-agressive', as Matt put it (although it's not like the world needs any more aggressive arseholes than it already has), any more than they think all women should be hairy, butch tractor lesbians (not that there's anything wrong with that either). I just think everyone should care a little bit less about people in terms of their gender and more in terms of the product of their words and actions, and what good they do in the world. Because physical sex matters so very little in the grand scheme of things, and gender is, let's face it, more a social construct than a biological imperative, something I think everyone here should be able to appreciate.

 

 

I don't want to go too political and social, but you can't avoid it if we're talking about Gender roles and human civilization.

 

I hear you Thorn, gender roles are key to homophobia beyond just peer pressure (another piece of gender role) and adult influences in kids.

 

It's a self perpetuating cycle, one generation to the next, because a certain period in the last two hundred years created a "perception" of what "gentleman" and "ladies" should be.

 

You probably have seen or read Henrik Ibsen's "A Doll's House", the traditional stereotypes were accentuated by the 19th century Victorian mindset. Ancient history was probably more open to a point, but in the last thousand years, gender roles have just grown a lot stronger in different societies.

 

You can blame it on Victorian culture (The modern American "Nuclear family" was born out of old world traditions), the Rise of Roman Christianity in the late empire and the turbulent Middle Age of Europe (Funny and tragic, Europe became a cesspool of bigotry, chauvinism, and fear), the rise of Islam and its effects on African and Middle Eastern cultures (Culturally based legal and social systems that are heavily oriented toward gender roles and in modern comparisons restrictive toward gays and women), the rise of Chinese Confucianism and its amalgamation of Taoism/Buddhism in religious and philosophical education pushed woman to a subservient place as housewives or concubines (Confucius' philosophy changed after the Han Dynasty and became more reactionary), and who knows what else, but simply put, the past is the past.

 

Everyone has a choice, whether they wish to perpetuate a world view of gender or not, it is up to them.

 

All we can do and all I can with my posts, is point out the problem within gender role dynamics and push for critical evaluation. In the long run, critical thinking on these subjects will help reduce homophobia and misogyny.

[Zombie]

You can blame it on Victorian culture (The modern American "Nuclear family" was born out of old world traditions), the Rise of Roman Christianity in the late empire and the turbulent Middle Age of Europe (Funny and tragic, Europe became a cesspool of bigotry, chauvinism, and fear), the rise of Islam and its effects on African and Middle Eastern cultures (Culturally based legal and social systems that are heavily oriented toward gender roles and in modern comparisons restrictive toward gays and women), the rise of Chinese Confucianism and its amalgamation of Taoism/Buddhism in religious and philosophical education pushed woman to a subservient place as housewives or concubines (Confucius' philosophy changed after the Han Dynasty and became more reactionary), and who knows what else, but simply put, the past is the past.

 

Thank you for such an insightful distillation of human history. Now I can throw out all those stuffy old history books filled with irksome facts

 

Matt's right, I won't jerk the zombie anymore

 

You made an objectionable statement that the schoolboys who bullied another schoolboy for wearing a dress in a school play "aren't homophobes, yet, they are just anti-feminine". The reason your statement is objectionable is because you are not commenting on such behaviour, you're adding your own acceptance of it by saying such bullying behaviour is "just" anti-feminine. In other words "just" modifies the whole meaning of your statement.

 

Maybe you meant to say something else - just as you later, with considerable reluctance, corrected your mix-up between "feminist" and "feminine". Maybe you meant to say "These kids aren't homophobes, yet, but they are anti-feminine." That would be fine, merely an observation from you, not adding your own acceptance or endorsement of such behaviour.

 

But if you insist on sticking to your statement as it stands then I'd say this. There is a big problem - including, as we know, within the gay world itself - with prejudice, discrimination and worse against males who display feminine behaviour. Your statement was not made in the context of macho team sports - Tetrefine's point, where another discussion could be had - you were saying it in the context of playground bullying. It is your stated acceptance of such behaviour in that context that is unacceptable. So if you in fact meant to say something else then tell us

 

 

Edited July 28, 2014 by Zombie

[W_L]

Zombie, sometimes you mistype things and it happens too often with a cell phone. Sometimes an idea and a word are off in meaning withput context. .

 

The meaning of my words were better read in context than cut and pasted.  

 

If you want to accentuate my error, all I can do is apologize for using the wrong term, because I am getting too old to play these games with you over literal terms or contextual ideas and this point must be ended if the topic is to go on. 

 

As for history, my point is simple, no one is blameless in the formation of gender roles and stereotypes, but we can learn from our divergent experiences and move forward together.

 

 

L

[Gene Splicer PHD]

You guys are turning this into a semantics circle jerk. 

 

I'm just afraid that boys acting like boys will become something to be looked down upon and they will all be expected to be sensitive, gentle, and non-agressive. It seems like we are trying to somewhat feminize males and masculinity. 

 

There is a reason football locker rooms are very anti-feminine and anti-gay. Because masculinity is a trait that is absolutely essential to succeeding on the field during game-day, while femininity is a detriment to that goal. They can't contribute, so therefor are worth nothing to the team. The same goes for certain occupations too. Things like construction and policing and such have very similar attitudes because strength and masculinity are prized and essential to functioning properly in those jobs. So don't just think they are blindly ignorant for no reason.

If you were to rephrase this using the words "passive" and "aggressive" instead of "feminine" and "masculine" it would make sense to me, but it kinda doesn't make sense to me the way you've written it. I know plenty of masculine people - women and men - that are passive while being masculine in the way they act. I also know plenty of feminine people - again both women and men - who are aggressive while being feminine in their behavior.

 

You're right, in that being "feminine" in a locker room isn't seen as "manly". But if a player is feminine in mannerisms, but can run the ball down a field while shoving other players out of the way, does it matter? Tough question, there. I know a guy, 6'4, probably 300 pounds. When I met him, he looked like Chewbacca because of the long hair and beard and the way he stands. Then he talked, and I thought I was talking to Beyoncé. Kind of disturbing, really. Very feminine mannerisms. But he's a good baseball player and a good football player, and yeah, I bet he catches a lot of shit on the locker room until you see him play.

 

But you don't have to be anti-gay about it, unless you think that being gay makes you weak. Do you think you are weaker than a straight guy? I'm not. I think I'm stronger for it. I think that feminine men and masculine women are also stronger, because their lives are tougher in lots of little ways that mine is not (since I'm apparently masculine enough that unless I tell some one that I'm gay, they can't tell).

 

I know some female cops - I'm a friend of the police chief in a neighboring city's and she is a straight white lady of some stature. She's really feminine in a lot of ways but she'd kick my ass six ways from Sunday if I were resisting arrest

 

As a side question: I define "anti-feminine" as "against feminine behavior in men" and "anti-feminist" as being "against the feminist movement". Using those definitions, I think WL was talking about the former and not the latter. Do I have that right? The derail has confused me.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Gene Splicer PHD

[Irritable1]

As a side question: I define "anti-feminine" as "against feminine behavior in men" and "anti-feminist" as being "against the feminist movement". Using those definitions, I think WL was talking about the former and not the latter. Do I have that right? The derail has confused me.

 

I believed it was the former but now that we've gotten into masculine and feminine attributes I don't know anymore.  As a feminist, I'm deeply uncomfortable with these sweeping statements. [redacted for huffiness].

Edited July 28, 2014 by Irritable1

[W_L]

It was the former, "Anti-feminine", which in context actually works as boys are taught to define themselves by their gender roles at a young age.

 

Feminism is a broader concept with a lot of issues connected with it. I did not realize that I hade typed "anti-feminist" instead of "anti-feminine".

 

Now as for the concepts, Feminine stereotypical attributes include passivity and peaceful actions, which are not traditionally favorable to sports that involve conflict and aggression. However, as I said earlier, sometimes you must balance that kind of thinking. You can win a few games on aggression and skill, but it takes a smart and patient leader to win championships.

 

I am all for equality in genders and I think balancing outlooks and critical thoughts are needed.

 

An old saying goes, you need to "walk a mile in someone else shoes" to really understand them, I think everyone can use some alternate views.

 

Don't let fear in terms like "Feminism", "chauvinism", "Homophobia", or even "gay Pride", scare you away, because in the end, this is your life and your world as well, you don't need to avoid it.

[rustle]

The most tactful way to educate someone is by example. Live a good life in plain sight.

 

Quite often, a single voice of reason at the right moment will silence a roomful. Most people are easily led, and will follow the stronger leader.