Joe Paterno's 111 Wins Restored to Penn State

[methodwriter85]

Joe Paterno's wins are restored to Penn State. Is this fair, or not?

 

I will say, I lived in Western P.A. when the Jerry Sandusky scandal happened, and I was shocked at the riots and everything that went on at Penn State when this happened.

Edited January 20, 2015 by methodwriter85

[TetRefine]

He did basically nothing when he knew one of his assistants was raping multiple kids over many years. He is a disgrace and doesn't deserve the hero worship he still gets. 

[JamesSavik]

I'm not going to praise Paterno but, I think I understand him.

 

Men of his generation were particularly poorly suited to handle any issue that had anything to do with sex. They were taught that nice people didn't even say the word.

 

The way Reagan handled the AIDS epidemic is a prime example. He delegated it and went completely with the advice of experts. C. Everett Coop(SG) pretty much ran the whole show at the cabinet level. Reagan didn't even say the word AIDS in a speech until 1988- the final year of his presidency.

 

My own Dad had no idea how to handle me. We NEVER talked about it. Talking about it would have made it real. If he just saw something he didn't like, he would smack the shit out of me. Finally, the way he dealt with it was avoidance. He took a job with a lot of travel involved and we just weren't around each other.

 

We can blame these men but I'm not sure we should. In many ways they were outstanding. This was their weakness and blind spot. It was how a whole generation of men were raised to act, think and believe.

[Krista]

He may have been the coach that has the record, but he wasn't the only one to earn them. There were a lot of innocent people that built the School's football program to what it was... the championships, the wins..

 

I'm talking about the players and the innocent faculty and coaching staff around him.

 

He didn't do what he should have done, I agree. He may not have known how to go about alerting people properly or what that meant, but he should have been the loudest voice after he became aware of it. For the true victims of this entire scandal his lack of action damaged them forever. So maybe he shouldn't have had those wins restored...

 

At the end of it all, it's just a record. The damage has already been done.

[TetRefine]

Never has a pedophile enabler been so defended in public by so many. He knew about the rapes. He went to his boss, who did nothing. He knew he did nothing, and decided not to go the police. Joe Paterno WAS Penn State. He was the most powerful man at the university, but instead he decided to shield his program and his own legacy at the expense of so many children. Sandusky wasn't just fondling children, he was penetrating them! 

 

For fuck's sake people, how can you in any good conscience defend this guy?!?!   

[Irritable1]

It's not clear to me what legal action we're allowed to take against someone who is already dead. Taking away Penn State's wins seems like an incredibly feeble gesture. What we should do is burn Penn State's football facilities to the ground and plow salt into the soil. Are we allowed to do that? Edit: It amazes me that Paterno's family dared to make an issue of asking for the wins back. It's insane.

 

Edit: 

 

 

We can blame these men but I'm not sure we should. In many ways they were outstanding. This was their weakness and blind spot. It was how a whole generation of men were raised to act, think and believe.

 

You know, I'm not seeing it, James. That kind of blanket absolution obliterates individual rights and wrongs. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Irritable1

[PrivateTim]

Joe Paterno's wins are restored to Penn State. Is this fair, or not?

 

I will say, I lived in Western P.A. when the Jerry Sandusky scandal happened, and I was shocked at the riots and everything that went on at Penn State when this happened.

 

Of course it is fair. What was going on with the assistant coach had nothing to do with wins on the field. Penn State did not have a competitive advantage in the same way that a school that allows players to be paid does. The NCAA was way out of their jurisdiction here which is why they had to reverse their decision. They had an indefensible position.

 

The bigger question is why didn't the prosecutors prosecute the administrators and coaches who knew, including the assistant who saw the abuse, didn't stop it and didn't call the the police directly right then and there.

[Graeme]

You know, I'm not seeing it, James. That kind of blanket absolution obliterates individual rights and wrongs. 

As someone far removed from the story (though I do know of it in rough detail), I just wanted to say that I didn't read James's post as an absolution. Understanding what happened, which is what James has said, doesn't mean he approves or absolves.

 

I read James's post and, yes, I agree with him. There is a generation that was taught to be reserved, to ignore certain things. It was the 'norm' then. That doesn't make it acceptable. That's why societies evolve. Australia is currently going through a massive investigation on child abuse allegations. It's been going for over a year and the investigators are still going out to meet with people. What has happened is too widespread for the finger to be pointed at a few individuals. There was a cultural environment that allowed these things to happen and for the people who conducted those vile acts to be escape their due punishment.

 

I understand this. I don't approve of what happened or absolve those who shielded the villians from justice, but I understand how it could have happened. Our job is to learn from the past injustice, and do what we need to do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Irritable1]

I read James's post and, yes, I agree with him. There is a generation that was taught to be reserved, to ignore certain things. It was the 'norm' then. That doesn't make it acceptable. That's why societies evolve. Australia is currently going through a massive investigation on child abuse allegations. It's been going for over a year and the investigators are still going out to meet with people. What has happened is too widespread for the finger to be pointed at a few individuals. There was a cultural environment that allowed these things to happen and for the people who conducted those vile acts to be escape their due punishment.

 

You're right, Graeme, I shouldn't have used the word "absolution." I didn't mean to imply that James was letting people like Paterno off the hook. I apologize for that, James.

 

At the risk of being sententious, I do think that in every generation there are people who make difficult and costly decisions to do the right thing. I don't like the feeling that I'm letting those people down or belittling what they went through. Yeah, it does sound sententious. Never mind.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Irritable1

[JamesSavik]

I have forgotten where on the net I found it but a few years ago I read a history of the way attitudes have changed about sex crimes over the years.

 

If you look at it graphically, prosecution of sexual abuse was very rare back in the day. Things only started to change in the late fifties and sixties and the numbers began doubling every few years.

 

It was often handled just like the Catholic Church handled it. Perps were given an ultimatum- get out of town or face charges. Only exceptionally egregious cases went to trial. No one was comfortable with it and the cop out was often- we don't want to put the minor through an additional trauma.

 

It was something that "nice people didn't talk or think about". So much was white washed it's nauseating to even think about.

 

Sex crimes and the knowledge of them spread during the seventies and turned into real hysterical witch hunts in the eighties. (Yes they were looking for child molesting witches Day Care Sex Abuse Hysteria)

 

The real watershed was the passage of Megan's Law in 1994 which created the current sex offender registration system.

 

It took us a long time to get where we are today. There was a ton of difference in attitudes from decade to decade.

Edited January 21, 2015 by jamessavik

[PBax]

Irri, I'll see your sententiousness, and up the ante.

 

I think that ultimately this is a story about predation. And as an apex predator, we are singularly disqualified from really comprehending the depths of our own brutality. And because it confuses and eludes us, we hide it from ourselves and imagine ourselves differently.

 

It's no surprise we are fascinated by stories of werewolves and vampires and thrill to the idea of a hunger game. It's all about predation. We love the idea with passionate fascination. Because it's part of our core, it's in our blood, and it drives everything that makes us astounding and savage at once. And that's the conundrum, it's foundational to both achievement and failure. And I think that's why it evokes such vigor.

 

And, yes, we (as a group of predators trying to live in harmony) have come a very long way. But in the end it's really been more about massaging our anxieties than dealing with the real issue. We are predators.

[JamesSavik]

And, yes, we (as a group of predators trying to live in harmony) have come a very long way. But in the end it's really been more about massaging our anxieties than dealing with the real issue. We are predators.

 

We are and we aren't. It's a fascinating duality.

 

I remember when I was much younger going out hunting. I would go to a club and nail the best looking guy in the place. Yeah- it was an ego trip. It was a little game I used to play with myself. What the heck- it was the early 80s. Before HIV. I won't say how often I won but you can't score if you don't play.

 

Do you know what my huge, kinky S&M fantasy is? To rescue the poor bastard that's tied up.

 

I got to do it once and he asked me- why did you do that?

 

It is difficult to be the White Knight when they really want to be tied up.

[Irritable1]

But you guys, this just wasn't all that complex. It was one man, selecting vulnerable kids and having sex with them. To the extent that we're supposed to think of Paterno as some kind of puritanical Greatest Generation guy, he should have been outraged and jumping all over the situation. 

[PBax]

I didn't mean to suggest a defense for anyone--pro or con. If anything, I was trying to suggest that we are all doomed.

[Irritable1]

Nah

[DynoReads]

Paterno as some kind of puritanical Greatest Generation guy, he should have been outraged and jumping all over the situation. 

 

I have debated about joining in. I was attending Penn State at the campus this stuff happened, during some of it. Paterno was not the only authority figure athletes informed about the abuse/molestation/rape. Some of my neighbors were football players and they told me they had attempted to speak to the Dean of the university, Bryce Jordan.

 

My point is that there were many who knew and did not go to the authorities, including other coaches, the Dean and football players. Paterno was made the scape goat for some reason. I personally would love to see sanctions brought against the dean.

[TetRefine]

I have debated about joining in. I was attending Penn State at the campus this stuff happened, during some of it. Paterno was not the only authority figure athletes informed about the abuse/molestation/rape. Some of my neighbors were football players and they told me they had attempted to speak to the Dean of the university, Bryce Jordan.

 

My point is that there were many who knew and did not go to the authorities, including other coaches, the Dean and football players. Paterno was made the scape goat for some reason. I personally would love to see sanctions brought against the dean.

 

I have to disagree. Paterno was the most powerful man at Penn State, and was in the most position to do something to stop the rapes. He deserves the most criticism because he was the boss (essentially). If he had gone to Graham Spanier and discussed how to best handle going to the police about this, and they had gone to the police in a way that also preserved the university's reputation, then fine. But he went to Spanier, they discussed it, and decided to do nothing about it while it continued to happen. Anybody who knew about this and did nothing is guilty, whether it be players, coaches, assistants, etc., but those who were in the position to do the most about it and did nothing, well they deserve to rot in hell. 

 

As someone who works with young children for a living, I can't wrap my head around why so many on here and other places defend this man and his program after what he did. It seems to me there are a lot of people who care more about Penn State football and it's reputation then they do about innocent children being violated in a despicable way. 

[MikeL]

As someone who works with young children for a living, I can't wrap my head around why so many on here and other places defend this man and his program after what he did. It seems to me there are a lot of people who care more about Penn State football and it's reputation then they do about innocent children being violated in a despicable way. 

 

Football fans aren't necessarily rational.

[PrivateTim]

I have to disagree. Paterno was the most powerful man at Penn State, and was in the most position to do something to stop the rapes.

 

No.

 

A simple phone call from the graduate assistant to the police was all that was needed. HE was the person in the in the best position to do something to stop the rapes BECAUSE HE WAS WATCHING IT.

 

The grad assistant didn't need to tell anyone but the police.

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Yeah, we know how that phone call would have gone:

 

"Yeah, hey. I work up here at Penn and there's some hinky stuff going on with kids. You should investigate Sandusky."

 

"Yeah, okay."

 

...

 

"Hi Joe. I just got a call from somebody claiming that Sandusky is diddling kids. Any truth to that?"

 

"Well, er... it would really mess up our season if you investigate that now."

 

"Nuff said, Joe, have a good day."

[PrivateTim]

Yeah, we know how that phone call would have gone:

 

"Yeah, hey. I work up here at Penn and there's some hinky stuff going on with kids. You should investigate Sandusky."

 

"Yeah, okay."

 

...

 

"Hi Joe. I just got a call from somebody claiming that Sandusky is diddling kids. Any truth to that?"

 

"Well, er... it would really mess up our season if you investigate that now."

 

"Nuff said, Joe, have a good day."

 

Except of course the incident in question happened in 2002, well after Sandusky had retired from coaching.

 

Had the grad assistant stepped in and said, "pull your penis out of that boy Jerry", called the police with the boy still dripping wet from the showers with his anal cavity expanded, it would have been awfully tough for police to ignore and I can't imagine any policeman sweeping the penetration of a 10 year old under any rug......  shagging a uni co-ed is one thing, popping 10yo's another.

[Gene Splicer PHD]

Is this where you get all pedantic? How boring. Strike "Sandusky" from my first sentence so that it ends "you should investigate".

 

Do you now see my point? That it's possible that Penn State staff might have an undue influence on the actions of a local police force, even, possibly, on law enforcement at a state level?

 

I agree it should have been reported from the most junior person right up to top management and acted on at every step.

 

But it wasn't. It got buried. And I'm cynical enough to believe that it may have been buried by both law enforcement and the staff at the university. Whether that was to protect reputations or jobs or season passes doesn't matter.

 

And don't ask me to prove anything, because I don't have any. It's my gut reaction to the way the whole thing played out.

 

And I'm not going to argue this point anymore, because it's creeping into political territory and I don't wanna go there. This isn't the place.

 

To address the topic: it's unfair to penalize the players. The staff, and their reputations, not so much.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Gene Splicer PHD

[Former Member]

It's still tragic, and the restoration of the games means... the NCAA capitulated.