School shootings...

[Kurt]

I am not really sure how much of you have seen the news lately, but in the past month some pretty scary things have been happening:

 

About 3 weeks or so ago, there was a shooting at a college somewhere in Canada, I think some people died, but I do not have a number.

 

2 weeks, very near to me 3 teenagers were arrested because they were planning on shooting up there school. They had a lot of guns, sawed off shotguns and many other kinds of guns. They also had a napalm like gas, and other types of explosives. It is said that if these 3 students would not have been caught, it would have been worse than Columbine.

 

2 days ago in Colorado a guy went into a school, and took 4 girls hostage. He ended up shooting and killing a girl, and he killed himself.

 

Yesterday in Southwestern Wisconsin, a 15 year old 9th grader brought a handgun and a Shotgun to school. He shot the Principal 3 times, killing him.

 

To me this is a little scary because it is getting so close to home. But also, in general this is pretty scary. Where will it happen next? When? It could be any where at any time. That is what is so scary about it. And recently it seems like it has been happening more often.

 

Why would someone do somthing like this? Can't family and friends see the signs?

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Kurt

[Xiao_Chun]

I have thought a lot about this issue after watching the movie

Edited October 1, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[knotme]

I agree with above posts. It seems to me that this kind of thing is happening more now than at any time I can remember. I cannot pinpoint a reason for the increase. In particular, it seems to me (no expert) that none of Michael's 3 causes have worsened recently: #2 got worse in the 70's and 80's and seems to have stabilitized; and #1 and #3 have, I think, improved. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

 

(If this happens in my neighborhood, the answer is likely to be #2 after all, owing to an ice epidemic. Parents on ice totally space out; they might as well not be there.)

 

What do others think? Can anyone help me understand why this is getting worse?

 

One possibility scares me: that what used to be unthinkable is now thinkable. You cannot undo that quickly in a free society. If this is the cause, it's going to be with us for a while. I'd sure like to be wrong.

[Xiao_Chun]

What I like about Kurt is that he has the guts to talk about many problems, that are sometimes too painful for us and we tend to ignore. Whether it is his personal problems or more general problems, what Kurt is bringing to this forum is important for many people, not just for him.

 

With the school shooting issue, if more high school kids were like Kurt, there would be much more awareness and less tragic incidents. So I applaud Kurt for bringing this topic to our attention, and encourage him to raise this topic at school (maybe in the school newspaper or a letter to the principal). As I mentioned earlier, watching the movie Elephant and discussing it in class helps to increase awareness, and many schools do that. No student will object if instead of classes they have to watch a movie.

 

We need a reminder that we are fragile creatures and you can push everybody over his limits. Some have more capacity than others, but everybody has his limits.

 

Hugs,

Michael.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[old bob]

Hey

We had the same problem here but with adults. 3 years ago, I man came to the parliament of one of our middle cities and shot 14 members because his was angry about their political orientation.

Our problem is that all citizen have their military weapons home with amunitions. The trend now is to forbid to take one's rifle and gun home.

How can children have their own guns ?

Old bob

[Xiao_Chun]

Hey

We had the same problem here but with adults. 3 years ago, I man came to the parliament of one of our middle cities and shot 14 members because his was angry about their political orientation.

Our problem is that all citizen have their military weapons home with amunitions. The trend now is to forbid to take one's rifle and gun home.

How can children have their own guns ?

Old bob

The case that you mentioned seems more like a terror attack. Can we distinguish between terrorism and the school shooting incidents? The common definition of terrorism (from Wikipedia) is "Terrorism is the systematic use, or threatened use, of violence to intimidate a population or government and thereby effect political, religious or ideological change." So what you are describing fits under the definition of terrorism.

 

Can the cases of school shooting be classified as terrorism? The kids who take their father's gun and go shoot at their fellow students are not part of an organization that wants to change the political system. But maybe they do want to bring a change in the educational system? I guess what is missing here is the "systematic use of violence".

 

Any lawyers who can contribute to the discussion?

 

Hugs,

Michael.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[Guest rusticmonk]

This is kind of scary to me too. The implications of our youth's behavior are varied testaments to today's society. And terrorism against schools is the same as school shootings. How many schools have been shut down because of "bomb threats"? Is it almost not always an act of terrorism perpetrated by a student?

 

Having a squad of armed men seize a building and shoot people is ten times more scary and deadly than a disgruntled kid. And in a sic way, I meant that many ways.

 

In the opinion with notice to "environment" . . . I agree with the idea of a school envrionment, given allowances for regional differences, like Utah and Texas. And, of course, exceoptions for how a child is raised.

 

As for the call for lawyers. Sorry, I don't have a juris doctorate, but I can tell you that schools are modeled after government.

 

Guns aren't hard to find here in America. Like . . . anywhere. Sometimes children even buy them.

 

So with the government thing, I hope you've thought about that a little now. Ideological change: for instance, policy. Any policy or RULE. Shooting democrats . . . hating on minorities . . . people of different faiths. I dunno, I think this all fits.

 

And I'm thinking about this like offices. The students and student government (yeah, they should pull the same rank as far as one-one-one convos, but the student gov. is supposed to more directly affect policy) ------> teachers (the student gov. always needs teacher backing) ----> princ., v.p. END.

 

That is just the school. If you want to, go to the superintendent, the state sup. . . . . straight up to the US Dept. of Edu.

 

 

 

On to WHY?!

 

What can cause this type of unhappiness? What could be the catalyst of this kind of unrest?

 

Oh man, I dunno:

 

bad parents[abusive in the broader meaning] + bad school[teaches through retributives and conformity] + bad friends[who are angry too, and just as destructive]

bad parents[neglect or whatever] + bad school[bullies and what-not] + good friends[the ones who thought they were kidding or something]

good parents + bad school + bad friends

good parents + good school + bad friends

 

 

 

Generally,

 

good + bad + good is 50-50.

bad + good + bad can be really succesful.

 

 

good + good + good should work out pretty well, right? But--here's where it gets tricky--are this persons actions simply a reflection of environment, or was this human destined (by genetics or fate [either one]) to become a school shooter?

 

pretty extreme, huh?

 

Oh, hey, did I point out that I used the word "generally"? Because I did.

 

Yeah, it could be all those rappers with their bith sapping, bunt soking, CAR AND RIMS!! Or pehaps the mind-eating adverts on television and constant messages the media (confused sometimes with "society") give us. Not to mention society.

 

How did we get this depraved? Lay-offs? Rising cost-of-everything, but wages so low it's a crime? Maybe our negative media, or the indestructable conglomerates, or movies . . . . I don't know. I'm just taking a few stabs.

 

 

 

:: sighs :: too bad our country is so proud of our guns, or we would be able to outlaw them. crap, I could take more digs like this, but i need to sleep. goodnight.

[NickolasJames8]

The only things that would happen if we outlaw guns is

 

 

1) criminals would have them and law abiding citizens wouldnt

 

2) The people would be unable to defend themselves against a tyranical government that already violates the constitution on a daily basis.

 

If you look back over history, most totalitarian governements, like the Nazi's in Germany, started out by banning guns. It's a really bad idea.

[Kurt]

Hey guys this is getting VERY close to politics, that cannot happen I would prefer that this topic not me closed. Please try and refrain from discussing politics, please.

 

Thanks,

Kurt

[Marty]

Hey guys this is getting VERY close to politics, that cannot happen I would prefer that this topic not me closed. Please try and refrain from discussing politics, please.

 

Thanks,

Kurt

 

Exactly that I was thinking, Kurt! Indeed I was going to post about the political nature of some of the posts as I was reading through this thread - until I got to the last post (yours; that I am replying to here).

 

NicholasJames did make some points that I felt an urge to reply to. But this thread is in the Lounge, which has the rule: Please do not discuss politics here, so I felt it would be inappropriate.

 

Can I take this opportunity to agree with Michael's post in which he congratulates Kurt for having the courage to discuss the whole School Shootings phenomenom (if that's the right word). I think it's always a healthy sign when I see young people feeling that they are able to discuss what others may think to be sensitive issues.

 

On the whole subject of school shootings I can't really come up with any concrete suggestions. The country I live in (Ireland), in spite of it's troubled recent political past, has (touch wood) not yet experienced this type of violence.

 

As an outsider I am incined to think that the problem in America may stem to a lage extent from the media and the easy access to guns and rifles. I'm not inclined to go along with the idea of placing the blame largely on discrimination (on whatever grounds), powerlessness, or hopelessness, etc. These have been with us since the dawn of civilisation. The whole school shootings phenomenon is much more recent.

 

Another possible cause for maybe some of the shootings might be the fifteen minutes of fame syndrome. I think this term was first coined by Andy Warhol in the 1960's, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that psychologists believe it may be responsible for at least some of the atrocious acts that some individuals perpetrate these days.

 

~ Marty ~

 

[knotme]

Kurt's initiative give us the opportunity to discuss this. The Gay Authors Community provides the venu. Thanks to both!

 

A brief discussion of two trends that might help us glimpse the causes of the increase in school violence: (1) the economic decline of the US within the world system and (2) the decline of religion within the US. I emphasize: these trends themselves do not cause violence.

 

The US is past it's prime as a world power. I see my country somewhat in denial over that fact, and one result is the inattention to the the pain that rusticmonk described after he asked "How did we get this depraved?". I see large segments of my country increasingly poor, desperate, and hopeless. Parents without hope cannot nurture the spirits of their children. The increasing fragmented little nuclear families that characterize society in much of the Western developed world worsens this situation, every little fragment sinking or swimming on its own.

 

In the current issue of Foreign Affairs, Walter Russell Mead offers an insightful look at religion and US foreign policy. Setting aside foreign policy, his analysis of the dynamics of religion in the US tells me this: The increased religiosity we often hear and read about is a symptom, not of a broad revival of religion, but rather of a cyclical increase in evangelical fervor within a broad, slow decline in religion. This decline is part of and partly caused by increased freedom of thought, and a reduced hold of dogmas of all kinds.

 

In my church yesterday, a young man stood and reminisced about the strong youth participation in church where he previously lived. As I listened to him, I recalled processes my church, and other churches I've known, use to spread the faith. I'm sorry to say this, and I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I need to say it: the process benefits from minds less free thinking, more susceptible to dogma, and there are fewer such minds these days.

 

Reduced dogma makes possible reduced prejudice, and increased tolerance and cooperation. Someday it will allow a world community largely to supplant the current system of nation states, which is looking long in the tooth. The slow transition, however, leaves us in an unstable moral environment. Receding dogma can leave a void. Anything goes. The unthinkable is now thinkable, as I said above. As Marty suggested, we don't get much help filling this void from the mass media, also unstable, as the funding-by-advertizing paradigm flounders. Internet-based broadcasts and discussions are coming on strong to replace the old media, but it's still a big mess.

 

In summary, we live in an unstable moral environment where, more than ever, the blinders are off and anything goes. Economic pain, uncertainty, lack of hope, and a feeling of powerlessness are more common that we admit.

 

What do do? For one thing, realize that the steps that Michael has outlined are needed today more than ever.

[captainrick]

A sad sad twist in the shooting in Wisconsin.

 

I was listening to the news on Public Radio in my car today. It seems the young boy that shot his principal was angry because the school would do nothing about bullies who were calling him fag and faggot, to quote the news article. Children can be vicious to other children. This young man obviously went to far, but I for one can appreciate his frustration if the school was ignoring his plea for help.

 

To make this story even more tragic, the prosecutors are charging the boy who just turned 15 as an adult and he is looking at life in prison. An adult prison. Yeah, that sounds like justice to me.

 

Sorry, I had to vent.

 

hugs

 

Rick

[Xiao_Chun]

Kurt's initiative give us the opportunity to discuss this. The Gay Authors Community provides the venu. Thanks to both!

 

A brief discussion of two trends that might help us glimpse the causes of the increase in school violence: (1) the economic decline of the US within the world system and (2) the decline of religion within the US. I emphasize: these trends themselves do not cause violence.

Studies have been conducted about school massacres in an attempt to profile the perpetrators. This article in Wikipedia summarizes these studies. Here is a quote:

 

In the United States, everyday school violence, such as beatings and stabbings, especially of the gang-related sort, is more common in working-class, inner-city schools. However, student-perpetrated school massacres most often occur in overwhelmingly white, middle class non-urban areas (i.e. small towns and suburbs) where they receive the most media attention due to their severity in a brief period of time. Several experts in child psychology, including Dr Carl E. Drake, have stated that in most cases, the victims of the shootings are involved in bullying or other exclusionary acts towards the perpetrators, and that the perpetrators seemed to think this justified the act of murder.

So school violence in general is correlated with poverty, but not the school shooting incidents. The school shooters come form middle class families.

 

Here is another quote on profiling.

 

"Profiling" school shooters

A thorough study of all U.S. school shootings by the U.S. Secret Service warned against the belief that a certain "type" of student would be a perpetrator. Any "profile" would fit too many students to be useful and may not fit the potential perpetrators. "The researchers found that killers do not 'snap'. They plan. They acquire weapons. They tell others what they are planning. These children take a long, considered, public path toward violence." Stanford's Katherine Newman points out that, far from being "loners", the perpetrators are "joiners" whose attempts at social integration fail, that they let their thinking and even their plans be known, sometimes frequently over long periods of times. The shootings seem as though an attempt to adjust their social standing and image, from "loser" to something more like "master of violence".

And there is no profile. Some lived with both parents in 'an ideal, All-American family.' Some were children of divorce, or lived in foster homes. A few were loners, but most had close friends. Instead of looking for traits, the Secret Service urges adults to ask about behavior: "What has this child said? Does he have grievances? What do his friends know? Does he have access to weapons? Is he depressed or despondent?"

A sad sad twist in the shooting in Wisconsin.

 

I was listening to the news on Public Radio in my car today. It seems the young boy that shot his principal was angry because the school would do nothing about bullies who were calling him fag and faggot, to quote the news article. Children can be vicious to other children. This young man obviously went to far, but I for one can appreciate his frustration if the school was ignoring his plea for help.

 

To make this story even more tragic, the prosecutors are charging the boy who just turned 15 as an adult and he is looking at life in prison. An adult prison. Yeah, that sounds like justice to me.

 

Sorry, I had to vent.

 

hugs

 

Rick

 

This is another reason for Kurt to send a letter to the principal and to encourage discussion and awareness.

 

Hugs,

Michael.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[Davey]

Another Shooting

 

When does this end?!?

[old bob]

The case that you mentioned seems more like a terror attack. Can we distinguish between terrorism and the school shooting incidents?

Any lawyers who can contribute to the discussion?

Hugs,

Michael.

No ! It wasnt terrorism, It was just a man who lost a procedure against the governement, ran "amok" and came in the parliament during a general meeting wtih his rifle and shot the members and finaly itself . But the most important is now the discussions about the weapons at home. Instead of keeping rifle and ammunitions at home after the military periods, wouldnt it be better to keep the weapons in the arsenals ? The discussion began when an officer shot his wife with his military gun. If I remember, you have the same problem in US about the weapons-control. I know its an hot problem for you !

Old bob

[Xiao_Chun]

Another Shooting

 

When does this end?!?

I am watching the live report on CNN and I can't believe this. The shooter is 32 years old and he is "taking revenge" supposedly, by killing some school girls. Revenge for what? None of the victims were in school when he was a school kid. I am totally shocked.

[Kurt]

Yes, there was another shooting today. When I found out about it, I cannot describe what went through my head and how I felt. It is terrible!

 

Regarding the shooting in Wisconsin last week. This is what I read in the my citiy's newspaper, and what was discussed at school:

 

The student was suspended from school (for reasons that I am not aware of.) When he was suspended the principal told him that he would not be allowed to participate in the homecoming activites. When the principal told him this, the student reportidly said 'then there will not be a homecoming.' So, he went to the school on friday carring a shotgun and a handgun. When he walked into the school, the janitor got the shotgun away from the student. While the janitor was doing this the principal came towards them, the student broke free from the Janitor and shot the principal three times. He shot him in the leg, in the chest, and in the back of the head. The student got what he wanted, all homecoming activites were canceled for this week at that high school. IMO this kid desreves everything that he has coming to him. Even the being tried as an adult, and having to be in an 'Adult prison.'

 

When is this going to end? This kind of thing has been happening weekly now.

 

Kurt

[Kurt]

I also just found this out. Today in Las Vegas a former student at a high school was sspotted at the high school with a gun. They chased him into a nearby neighborhood where they lost him. He has not yet been caught.

 

Kurt

[Graeme]

There are two separate topics here. There are school shootings by non-students (such as the incident today) and shootings by students.

 

The former is part of general society and has nothing to do with the school. Just like the tragedy in Chechen last year, the school is merely a venue that the perpetrator uses.

 

The second is what I think the focus of this thread is about. The posts about profiling I found very informative, especially the comment about the attacks not being a result of a student "snapping" but that they are almost always planned.

 

To me, it sounds like a general build-up followed by some incident that pushes the person over the line. They then make a decision and follow it through.

 

One thing I've been wondering about is how much the school environment plays a part in this. I saw a comment from someone in another thread that they were at a small school with only 800 students. In Australia, that's a large school -- we have some that have over 1000 students, but most high schools (years 7 to 12) are in the 500-800 range.

 

Another difference appears to be the role of the school in a student's life. My impression is that schools in the USA are also major social environments, while in Australia most social activities occur completely divorced from school -- school is predominantly for education and extra-curriculla activities are not common.

 

Since at least part of the reason for these events appears to be social (eg. the student not being able to be part of a 'select' group or rejected socially by a large group of their peers), is it the way the school is a social focus in the USA part of the cause of the problem?

 

Australia has not (yet) had a tragedy of this type, and I hope we never do. I don't know what to think or what we should/could do. These are just my random thoughts on the subject

[JamesSavik]

School shootings often happen in clusters which begs the question- just how much of this is driven by the publicity (media attention)?

 

The A&E network often does hour long case studies and court trial results of these incidents. There appears to be several recurring themes in all of them: some degree of mental illness and bullying, harrassment and intimidation and ineffective or no action from administration.

[Guest rusticmonk]

Since at least part of the reason for these events appears to be social (eg. the student not being able to be part of a 'select' group or rejected socially by a large group of their peers), is it the way the school is a social focus in the USA part of the cause of the problem?

 

 

I'm sorry that politics actually play a role in this discussion. School politics particularily.

 

In America, school is the hub of students' social interaction. I mean, it permeates everything. And, since we're becoming more crowded, this kind of stuff is going to happen more often. What about overcrowding? that's another reason, too.

 

I find it kind of hard to believe that, in other parts of the wold, people just go to school and leave. Like they don't interact with their peers or whatever.

 

It's pretty dog eat dog all through-out high school, mostly in middle school. ('Specially in suburbia.) And there's lots of bullying. Our youth are becoming more twisted and less inhibited. Don't ask me why, but these are some things that would push a joiner to resort to killing people.

 

AND WHAT IF THE SHOOTERS WANTED TO DIE? I mean, these kids have to be depressed, right? Everyone hates them. So it's just one hell of a way to go out.

 

James Savik asks a good question.

 

The profile quotes were really nice. I'm glad Xiao_Chun went through the trouble of included them.

 

I don't know if Katherine Newman said this but, in "profiling": "These children take a long, considered, public path toward violence." It is very apparent that these students are going to shoot the school. Seriously. The secret service has pointed out some really friggin obvious "tells".

 

I'm changing gears here. HOW CAN SOMEONE NOT KNOW? WHY DOESN'T SOMEONE SAY SOMETHING BEFORE? Someone always has to know.

 

Gun control is really tricky here, anyway you look at it. If I were a politician . . . (oh, god, this is gonna be locked) . . . I'd be doing exactly what politicians are doing now . . . staying away from the subject.

 

BUT! I do think it's a good idea to regulate the designs of weapons that can be easily converted from semi-automatic to full auto. (All it takes is a spring/pin and a better slide for the automatic action.) This, too, is scary to think about. Some of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's arsenal were home-made. Thankfully the bombs never went off . . . .

 

I don't know . . . any changes we make to gun laws, other than affecting the manufacture and sale of guns, will really screw with our constitutional rights.

 

You know that was law and not politics, right?

 

--Gabe

Edited October 2, 2006 by rusticmonk

[Graeme]

I find it kind of hard to believe that, in other parts of the wold, people just go to school and leave. Like they don't interact with their peers or whatever.

I wasn't clear enough. Naturally, there is a lot of social interaction at school in Australia, but it is NOT the centre of social activity. A lot of social interaction between peers occurs away from the school environment. One big area is sports. In Australia, the majority of organised sports are completely divorced from the education system and cover a wide range of age groups. For example, I used to be heavily involved in basketball -- which was a local organisation that played at a council-owned stadium with competitions from under 8s to over 35s and everything inbetween. It was linked to the Victorian Basketball Association, which was linked to the Australian National Basketball Association, which in turn was linked to FINA (the international body). This sporting hierarchy, from local grassroots all the way up to the top level (often international) is reflected across Australia. The education system is not involved. There are school competitions, and some schools will have teams in the local competition, but even that is more often students from the same school forming a team, rather than a school-sponsored team.

 

Similarly, other special interest groups attract the people who are interested in that area -- and those groups will often have a wide range of ages. I knew of a guy from school who was strongly interested in ham radio, and was heavily involved with other ham-radio operators across the city.

[Xiao_Chun]

School shootings often happen in clusters which begs the question- just how much of this is driven by the publicity (media attention)?

 

The A&E network often does hour long case studies and court trial results of these incidents. There appears to be several recurring themes in all of them: some degree of mental illness and bullying, harrassment and intimidation and ineffective or no action from administration.

This is a good question. Maybe it is not driven by publicity, but rather it is easier to plan and execute the school shooting in small cities? Maybe in small cities there is something different in the school environment that creates potential school shooters?

 

Peace,

Michael.

[old bob]

hey everybody

I just heard today the speech Bush about a national meeting to resolve this plague.

Is it the right way ?

can we correct irrational behaviors with "political mesures ?

I doubt .....

Old Bob

[NickolasJames8]

I'm sorry I did this to your topic, Kurt